Doctor claims 40% of WoW players are addicted

[Phanto]

There is an interesting article (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060809-7459.html) at Arstechnica.com you should read.

She points out that MMORPGs typically use what is known in psychological circles as variable ratio reinforcement. Variable ratio reinforcement is the idea that the best way to optimize the desired behavior in the subject is to hand out rewards for correct behavior, and then adjust the number of times the subject is required to exhibit that behavior before a reward is handed out. For instance, if a rat must press a bar to receive food, then it will press faster and more often if it doesn't know how many times it needs to press the bar. An equivalent in World of Warcraft would be purple (epic) loot drops: you never know when they are going to happen, but that just increases the anticipation of getting them.
It's true that the game is an addiction I myself was in it for about two months ( the first two months since the game was released), right now I'm still thinking if I should go back and play again but I'm not sure because of the addiction that I once had with the game... Did you have an addiction from playing this game all day, or worst?

[UnderHero5]

Yup. I too played it for a few months right after it came out (about 4 months, I think).
Durring the first three months I played is every chance I had. And I mean every chance.
It was definitely an addiction.
Then I got bored with it... stopped playing very often and canceled my account (this was once I reached about lvl 45).

I tried it again about a year later and it just didn't do anything for me.

[NoName]

Fourty percent seems like a reasonable estimate from what I've seen of WoW players. Luckily my ADD attention span helps me keep me from staying addicted, though I have to admit the first month was pretty rough.

There's to many fun games I've never played for me to play nothing but WoW.

[Heretic Machine]

I disagree with this assessment. I think a lot of people are trying to combine the ideas of addiction (where you become DEPENDANT on something) and simply not having any interest in doing other things. If you knew a writer, who did nothing but write and had no interest in other activities, would you say he is addicted to writing? This isn't like cocaine or heroine, your body would not go into chemical withdrawl if you stop playing WoW.

[ttoastt]

I agree with Perigon, WoW was just reasonably fun and so I played it quite a bit in my spare time.. for 10 months. Then one day I decided I'd take a break, and realized it was a huge timesink so I cancelled the account. But I think calling it an addiction is not quite right, though it would be humorous to see someone experiencing WoW withdrawal

[Roc Ingersol]

Orzack says there's little difference between drug use, excessive gambling and heavy game playing
That tells you everything you need to know about her 'expertise'.

She clearly isn't concerned with a meaningful study of addiction, let alone game addiction.

[jervo]

I think I can say I was addicted for about 3 months; I skipped out on work a few times and missed a number of social events. And for all my slavish devotion to WoW, I never even made it up to 60, which is what makes it sadder.

[Syl]

I agree with Perigon, WoW was just reasonably fun and so I played it quite a bit in my spare time.. for 10 months. Then one day I decided I'd take a break, and realized it was a huge timesink so I cancelled the account. But I think calling it an addiction is not quite right, though it would be humorous to see someone experiencing WoW withdrawal
I've seen WoW withdrawal, it's not pretty.

[TacoBob]

I just timed myself. The most I usually played a day was an hour..Unless there was a guild-thing going on. I enjoyed WOW for a bit. Played it a good year and I was done with it.

[Varsity]

If you knew a writer, who did nothing but write and had no interest in other activities, would you say he is addicted to writing?
Yes, you would. Because the mind does not work like you suggest.

This isn't like cocaine or heroine, your body would not go into chemical withdrawl if you stop playing WoW.Chemical addictions are only half the story.

[Heretic Machine]

Look, here is an example: I spent most of my time from 8th grade up through my senior year of High School playing Ultima Online. Me and my friends would play this game for essentially 100% of our free time. That free time expanded as my sleep time shrank (so much so that after a few days without sleep, I passed out from exhaustion on the kitchen floor while getting breakfest one morning). I would fit this profile of so-called addiction.

One day a couple of years into this addiction a terrible winter storm came along and knocked the power out for a week. Now, if I were really addicted I would of been miserable, I would of been annoyed, and I would of been a very nasty person to be around. What was the reality of the situation? Me and my cousin decided to go enjoy the outdoors for most of that week (day and night), and the whole week passed by in the blink of an eye. Power came back on, snow melted, and I went back to playing as usual.

This whole MMO addiction thing is bullshit. Some people just aren't interested in traditional forms of entertainment, and for some of these people MMOs are a conveniant way to fill their time.

[JazGalaxy]

Yes, you would. Because the mind does not work like you suggest.

Chemical addictions are only half the story.

Like people who are addicted to pornography, and, yeah, go through withdrawel symptoms when they don't have access to it.

[Ernst_Jager]

I was addicted as much as that I felt I had a responsiblity to my guild to be there for raids and so forth. There were plently of times where I really didn't feel like playing, but I just couldn't let my friends down.

[jacktion]

This brings up the interesting concept of what is an addiction? Is Andre Agassi addicted to tennis?
Here is the definition of addiction.

Habitual psychological and physiological dependence on a substance or practice beyond one's voluntary control.

So if one is involuntarily playing WOW then it is an addiction I guess. But many people probably think they are voluntarily playing when they are in fact addicted. I think that it is an addiction when it causes harm to yourself or your life. If you know you should stop playing but you can't then it is an addiction.

If you miss classes because you are playing videogames you are addicted. If you skip a great job interview. If you play instead of exercising or socializing then you probably are mildly addicted. If your quality of life is being negatively affected then you are addicted.
I think of all the hours spent gaming and wonder what I could have achieved if I hadn't spent them sitting on a couch getting fatter. That would be a sign of addiction I guess.
Gambling addicts probably would say that gambling is fun but it destroys their lives.

[Qoz]

As I have written in some other posts here, I really think this will be a huge problem in the future. MMORPGs or other massive online games are not as widespread as they wil be.

[Malovech]

Orzack says there's little difference between drug use, excessive gambling and heavy game playing


That tells you everything you need to know about her 'expertise'.

She clearly isn't concerned with a meaningful study of addiction, let alone game addiction.

I hardly think that statement indicts her credibility. There have been numerous studies showing a correlation between gambling and drug addictions. Taking the leap into heavy game playing isn't that much of a stretch. It comes down to certain addictive personalities and the nature of certain stimuli that are more addictive than others (gambling and drugs being right up there).

[Mac]

Perigon, by your logic involving chemical inbalances and feeling withdrawls, gambling addictions would be impossible.

Nobody gets the shakes from not being able to play a hand of blackjack, but the addiction is there all the same.

[SteveRage]

I played for more than a year, and while I did juggle and fumble priorities at times to play, I've never felt truly "addicted" to the game- but there were times when it came close. I did find myself habitually logging on and 5 minutes later wondering WHY I had logged on when there was nothing to do. Luckily the game dies at 60 and after a pally and a very nicely geared warlock (both 60, both MC vets) failed to bring me any fun, I quit cold turkey. Haven't been back and I really don't plan to. But there were times when I REALLY wanted to play, but remembering that there really wasn't anything to go back to but the meaningless dungeons that I'd run countless times before saved me from re-subbing.

though, I do hold WoW responsible for killing my desire to play ANY games at all.

[Qoz]

What was the reality of the situation? Me and my cousin decided to go enjoy the outdoors for most of that week (day and night), and the whole week passed by in the blink of an eye.
Proof of addiction is not like the heroin junkies throwing up and getting sick. It's just that you have this urge to do one thing all the time. And in the process you throw away your logic and refuse to face the serious damage to your life (social, health, economic). This fit with ALOT of people playing MMORPGS.

But it seems to be temporary. We are all recovering MMORPG junkies.
;)

[PIPBoy3000]

I always thought the trick was to get "addicted" to things that were good for you - exercise, eating good food, maintaining quality family ties, and so on. The other secret is to maintain a balance your "addictions" - don't just do one thing to the detriment of the others.

[vivafletcher]

I'm not a doctor and my observations aren't large enough to be statistically valuable...but I saw them myself. And would say that more than half of the people I know who play MMORPGs have been addicted to them at one time.

They play all the time-- even when they don't seem to "want" to. After awhile it becomes an obligation of sorts...they really should log a few more hours before going to bed, etc. It beomes more important than not just other pastimes, but other responsibilities as well. They admit to playing a lot, but really play even more than they admit to playing. Playing becomes something like a job-- some weird responsibility that, instead of making them feel good, now just prevents them from feeling bad (avoiding the guilt of not playing).

Again, this is just what I've seen.

And yes, there is withdrawal. They get nervous and wonder "what's going on" while they aren't playing. But, to be fair, it is something get over pretty quickly IF they actually stay away from it cold turkey. Normally this is forced upon them (internet goes out, they're forced on a trip for a few days). After that some have decided not to go back while others have.

I would say it is an addiction. I also admit that I don't play them (I like simpler games and MMORPGs are pretty complex and immersive) but as a gamer, you'll always have friends who do play them. And in my observations, the game stops being "fun" at some point and becomes something they pretty much have to do. I consider than an addiction rather than a recreational pastime.

[Varsity]

Words
Absence of evidence - especially with a sample of two - is not evidence of absence. Come on mate, this is basic stuff here.

[Soap]

I never would have called myself addicted to WoW. My logic to playing the game on a daily basis (3-4 hours) per day, was that I was paying a montly fee so I had best get my money's worth out of it. Took me a couple of months until I realized that 14.95/month isn't that much money compared to the boredom of it all. Maybe if there was more land to explore (played Alliance and Horde) I'd have stuck it out to 60. But I think the highest level character I had was 48 or something.

[jacktion]

Well put, vivafletcher.
I think that some people have a tough time believing it is possible to be addicted to games because they haven't seen real damage done by it. It is kind of an accepted trait of gaming that people do it too much and have no lives and we all joke about it but those are mild addiction symptoms. I'll admit they aren't very serious at that level but there are people who have suffered real damage. People have gotten divorced because of their game playing. People have lost jobs. That is damage. And in China and Korea people have actually played to death! They have played games to the exclusion of eating, sleeping and getting exercise until they died! So that is pretty clearly a real example of a badass addiction. It isn't that common but it happens. I don't think we need to make games illegal like cigarettes soon will be but there are things to consider. What if you were a parent and your kid played games all day and night and quit going to school and had no friends? Would you be worried? What if they were still doing that in their 40s? Would you consider their lives wasted to game addiction? I would. And that is a reality that happens.
So don't say that game addiction isn't real because it is. but we can still make fun of them cause they dumb.

[Kelegacy]

I've never played WoW and I'm never going to get into a MMORPG if I can help it. Oblivion and similar RPGs is as far as I'll go, and those are bad enough in terms of time sinkage.

[Kelegacy]

Originally Posted by Perigon
If you knew a writer, who did nothing but write and had no interest in other activities, would you say he is addicted to writing?

I wouldn't call it an addiction exactly. The writer is being productive with his time, and writing is his job. Playing WoW is neither.

Sometimes I think Warren Ellis is one of those "addicts", with all the things he does in a month, but I know he enjoys other things, even if they are booze and cigars.

[Goronmon]

I play a lot in spurts of time, but I'm definately not what anyone would consider "addicted". I actually have a lot of fun in raids, I shoot the shit over Ventrillo with a RL friend of mine and other guildies. I find the challenge of raiding fun so far and getting new gear is always cool.

But whenever I get bored I quit the game for some period of time, sometimes months.

[Manzy]

I've played WoW and I've been in that "addicted" phase (I also had a much worse experience: A Text-based RPG addiction I had when I was twelve- yes, I am a loser).

In light of that, it's pretty similar to gambling. You get these little prizes for your time, never enough mind you, and it keeps fueling this adrenaline in you to keep on playing.

In light of that, I'd say it's somewhat of a chemical reliance, no different from the people who get addicted to the 'runner's high.' However, I don’t view this as a social liability that would merit restrictions. I’ve always viewed addiction as more about the person than the substance, and unfortunately those will the self-control always have to suffer for the actions of the addicted, so I am vehemently opposed to any type of "age-law" or "restrictions" to be imposed by the government.

[Soap]

MMOs....the new "gateway drug".

[mightbe]

It's still only a fraction of the price of smoking.

[Maskatron]

WoW was only the second MMORPG that I played extensively (the first being CoH), and I played for about a month. It did suck up a lot of my free time, more than I wanted to devote to just one game (or one activity). One night after a really late night session, I just up and uninstalled the game and cancelled my account. I really like gaming, but I also like to manage my time better. ;)

[AversionFX]

I disagree with this assessment. I think a lot of people are trying to combine the ideas of addiction (where you become DEPENDANT on something) and simply not having any interest in doing other things. If you knew a writer, who did nothing but write and had no interest in other activities, would you say he is addicted to writing? This isn't like cocaine or heroine, your body would not go into chemical withdrawl if you stop playing WoW.

To some degree, I agree with you.

I used to play this MUD. Four years straight. I was so tired of the game mechanics, and the GMs (relatively small playerbase, so actual staff was around and the players regularly interacted with them) and largely everything about this goddamn game. But yet I kept playing. 7 hours a day despite having vastly superior games to play.

I wanted to hate the game, but I just couldn't NOT play. Because the community was there, and it was familiar. I am now done demonstrating my point.

So, addiction? Yeah. I can understand where people simply cannot stop playing because of the virtual benefits the game provides. I mean, we've all read/heard the horror stories of people playing EQ and losing their jobs, marriages, etc because of it.

Some people are just really prone to dependency on this kind of thing. And when you've got 6 million people playing it, I would guess the number of cases would just increase exponentially.

But, because this is a game and not... meth, the degree of addiction is not all so much. And I also agree on the point of there being a gross difference between "addiction," and "playing a lot." I play a shitload of video games, does that make me (or anyone) addicted? No, I wake up and go to work everyday (much like most of you).

[Karmakin]

I was addicted as much as that I felt I had a responsiblity to my guild to be there for raids and so forth. There were plently of times where I really didn't feel like playing, but I just couldn't let my friends down.

I think this is what the discussion really needs to be about. It's not addiction per se, in a lot of cases it's feeling a responsibility. This comes for two reasons.

#1. The monthly fee. You're paying for it, you want to get the most use out of it as you can. A one type purchase can be thrown on the shelf. An ongoing decision to maintain subscription is a bit more serious.

#2. Responsibilty to guild members. Either you need to level to keep up with them, or make it to guild events, or whatever. I think this is really the "problem" when it comes to MMORPGs. The reason why we play these games is for the community. And with communities, you have responsibilities. And because we enjoy these communities, we want to live up to those responsibilities.

I don't think either of things is an addiction. It's typical community stuff. Stuff that if it were offline we would see as being the domain of a healthy, well-adjusted individual.

And I don't think online is any different.

[Swat]

After dropping WoW for 8 months and recently coming back, I've observed quite a few things about myself, from my own experiences:

- You feel much more drawn to play and explore the world when you first start out, so the "wanna spend as much time as possible playing" is at it's prime when you're new.

- If you're a gamer, you can and will neglect all your other games, no matter how excellent they are. You will save money however. You will also miss out on some amazing titles that you would really love and enjoy.

- I don't like being told what to do and how to do it. I may not be decked out in Epic Tier 2 equipment, but I have the luxury of doing my own thing, at my own pace, and logging out whenever I want. I feel no need to schedule off my calendar or miss dinner because of this.

- I have never felt any sort of withdrawl from not playing WoW. It's nice to take a break and do other stuff, as it makes coming back that much more enjoyable. And yes, the game does get boring when you play it too much.

Doing a lot of something does not signify addiction, unless you absolutely have to do something, against your will, because you simply feel you must do this thing. When you are no longer having fun, but you need this thing to keep you going for some unknown reason, I'd say that's addiction. Skipping work to play WoW ocassionally isn't addiction. I've had friends, who at the height of their snowboarding days, would skip about 10 days a year and head to the mountains.

Hockey, Football, Sailing, Reading, Painting, Television, Movies, Dancing, Shopping, Hunting, Fishing, Bingo, Poker, Knitting.

We can do a combination of many leisure activities, or we can choose one. Personally, I've always been the "one leisure activity" kind of guy. That's why I've been a gamer since I was 6. Some people have a bit more variety, but when it comes down to it, free time can either be spent on a single activity, or multiple activities, and if it is not harming yourself or others, should not be judged based on the type of activity you are doing.

Common sense comes into play. I know that when I get about 40 or so hours a week gaming (not just WoW, but combined), I get a bit squirrelly and I have to go outside and get some fresh air, or just head out of town for the weekend and hit some BBQ's with friends, or go to some local event. Just like if you snowboard too much you're going to f*ck up your knees, it's good to take a break and not overdue it, but that's when your own internal mechanism kind of kicks in.

I still believe that a lot of this stigma comes down to the old school philosophy that "if you aren't outside, and you aren't physically in the company of another flesh and blood person, it JUST ISN'T RIGHT to spend your leisure time doing these things."

Social butterflies and parents are scared, because they don't understand technology. They do have some valid concerns, but this is not the world they had growing up, so they are fearful. Little Johnny isn't playing Football, he's racking up frags in Counterstrike.

Plus, like, videogames are the new Heavy Metal eh? Remember the 80's? ;)

[Zurik]

I don't think its that addictive, then again I only played it for a few months and when I quit I just moved on. I can see how people that invest alot of time in it would find it very difficult to just up and quit.

[Steve_Erhardt]

I like WoW, and I think it CAN be addictive, because I know a bunch of people who play simply an ungodly amount.

for myself, not so much. I've been playing (off and on) since Day-1, and STILL, my greatest character is only level 42, never had more than 100 gold in his pocket (and even THAT was given to me by a friend to buy a mount with... on my own, I've never had more than 24g on hand at one time), and I've got like 2 blue items, everything else is green shit.

I guess WoW is too stingy with the rewards to hook me into an addiction. Oh well.

[Roc Ingersol]

I hardly think that statement indicts her credibility. There have been numerous studies showing a correlation between gambling and drug addictions.
Which is right up there with its correlation to Lance Armstrong's bicycling 'habit'.

Actual addictions are very destructive to someone's life, even in their modest incarnations. To insinuate that 40% of WoW players are 'addicted', in comparison to actual addiction is either ignorance, sensationalistic or some combination of the two.

It's highly irresponsible of a licensed professional to make those kinds of statements, and does, indeed, draw her credibility into immediate question. She isn't even trying to back her claim with a sociological/psychological study, but rather pulling a sensationalistic number out of her ass based on anecdotal evidence.

That's all you really need to see.

[destoo]

just made a poll for it.
http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16144

I believe that just like gambling and most physically "harmless" addictions, some people get it, some people don't. Like immunity or something.

I stopped smoking on a dime after 10 years, but I've been hooked to MMOs since Ultima Online's beta, and I'd say even before that.

[abso]

I disagree with this assessment. I think a lot of people are trying to combine the ideas of addiction (where you become DEPENDANT on something) and simply not having any interest in doing other things. If you knew a writer, who did nothing but write and had no interest in other activities, would you say he is addicted to writing? This isn't like cocaine or heroine, your body would not go into chemical withdrawl if you stop playing WoW.

I don't think you understand how addiction works then. It IS a chemical withdrawal. As you play, endorphines are released that give you a sort of high. It isn't as profound an effect as a narcotic, but it is an effect none-the-less. Also, the amount of time you can spend playing a video game, or writing for that matter, far exceeds what your body would let you do with drugs. It is this prolonged exposure (per individual sitting and on a long term basis) to the stimulating material that creates the addiction response.

Furthermore, addiction doesn't necessarilly imply a physical dependance. It could be a psychological one as well. This, coupled with the endorphine rush from playing games, leads to these numbers.

[Orosco]

If I had an addiction to WoW, the boring lvl 60 end-game cured me of it. Honestly, its not the game I miss at all, just certain people. Maybe I was addicted to my friends? Now if I could only get them to play something better...

[Malovech]

It's highly irresponsible of a licensed professional to make those kinds of statements, and does, indeed, draw her credibility into immediate question. She isn't even trying to back her claim with a sociological/psychological study, but rather pulling a sensationalistic number out of her ass based on anecdotal evidence.



Which I agree with, but you were originally attacking her credibility because she dared to even put video game addicition in the same realm as drugs and gambling. Her methods might be flawed, but the original hypothesis has merit.

[kid cabelgo]

Which is right up there with its correlation to Lance Armstrong's bicycling 'habit'.

Actual addictions are very destructive to someone's life, even in their modest incarnations. To insinuate that 40% of WoW players are 'addicted', in comparison to actual addiction is either ignorance, sensationalistic or some combination of the two.

It's highly irresponsible of a licensed professional to make those kinds of statements, and does, indeed, draw her credibility into immediate question. She isn't even trying to back her claim with a sociological/psychological study, but rather pulling a sensationalistic number out of her ass based on anecdotal evidence.

That's all you really need to see.

I dunno man, addiction is a sliding scale. Someone once said that we are a nation of addicts. You can have little addictions that aren't "destructive to someone's life" like excercising. I've seen dozens of people that play wow even when they obviously aren't having fun. And it's not always about social obligation. Sometimes it's just about completing some stupid task that takes hours and hours to complete. I think it's safe to say those people are addicted on some level, even if it's not something that's destroying them.

[Dag-Sabot]

If you knew a writer, who did nothing but write and had no interest in other activities, would you say he is addicted to writing?
-Yes. That would be a "workaholic" a person addicted to their work. Falls under obsessive/compulsive disorder.
-If this news is true/accurate, I fear Korea as a nation.

Has anyone wondered how many lives are destroyed each year by the addiction to coffee?* Exactly.

*No fair citing the disenfranchised coffee bean farmers living in poverty.

-New P.E song idea: "Night of the living WOW-heads".

[anakin876]

This isn't like cocaine or heroine, your body would not go into chemical withdrawl if you stop playing WoW.

Actually, once someone becomes addicted the neurotransmitters in their brains are modified. You are right - it isn't a physical substance - but once the addiction is present the neurotransmitter supplies are all screwed up. Sometimes the brain no longer even makes the proper neurotransmitters for years after the addictive behavior is curbed. So you are correct that the person is not placing a substance in their bodies - but the effects are just as real and pronounced. It is not a process that only involves thoughts (gambling, porn, or maybe WoW) but it becomes one where the person's own body supplies the chemicals - or does not produce the normal chemicals at the normal times and in the normal amounts.

[balamoor]

Not addicted, just retarded.

[Heretic Machine]

I wouldn't call it an addiction exactly. The writer is being productive with his time, and writing is his job. Playing WoW is neither.

Productive? What is productive? I consider productivity to be enjoying what little time I have in life, and if that means sitting around on my ass playing games, then that is what I'll do.

[Kelegacy]

Productive? What is productive? I consider productivity to be enjoying what little time I have in life, and if that means sitting around on my ass playing games, then that is what I'll do.
Having a purpose in life is not playing videogames. If you are a game tester or a game journalist, fine, that's a living. But you cannot live a life wrapped up in videogames completely. Be a boon to society, not a burden.

[Heretic Machine]

Having a purpose in life is not playing videogames.

Purpose in life? Last I checked, my purpose was self-assigned, and I have decided that my purpose is to enjoy myself. You can waste your time worrying about whatever you like, none of my business. Personally, for me a job is just a way to make money so I can live life. It isn't a purpose.

[Kelegacy]

Purpose in life? Last I checked, my purpose was self-assigned, and I have decided that my purpose is to enjoy myself. You can waste your time worrying about whatever you like, none of my business. Personally, for me a job is just a way to make money so I can live life. It isn't a purpose.
How else are you going to live life if you do not have money? A job is a purpose, a reason to get up in the morning, a means to expel energy. Sitting in a dark room for your entire life playing videogames is not a life. It's an existence but it sure isn't a life.

You can't live with your parents forever, living a carefree life. Even that spoiled brat Paris Hilton knows this. Well, she is still carefree but she does make her own money even if she never has to work truly hard. That's why videogames are a big hobby for me. If I had no job and could sit home all day playing them, I wouldn't. I'd still play them a lot, but staring at a computer or tv screen for too long can be depressing, and studies have shown this.

There's a whole world out there, beyond games and make-believe. Experience it.

[Swat]

Calling other's hobbies unproductive is very narrowminded.

We are a product of our workaholic nation. We work in high stress environments with deadlines, we spend hours each day commuting, and our weekends are usually booked running around doing the things we can't during the week. This leads to tension, and the need to unwind with either hobbies, or addictions for a lot of people.

Is it any wonder why North Americans like escaping into hobbies? Happy hour at 5pm? Going to the bar on the weekend? It it odd that we are a decadent nation seeking extreme pleasure from our extreme work patterns and rushed lifestyle?

Two things spring to mind as being part of a fulfilling existence. Loving and being loved by others around you, and striving for yourself to be something greater. Some people are addicted to human interaction and attention, they desire this, and they seek this. Other people seek validation from within, they do not need this from others, and strive towards goals on their own. Most people have a balance that falls somewhere on either side of that scale, some are more extreme than others.

Being told that you "need" face to face social stimulation daily as if you were striving for some sort of quota is ridiculous. On most days when I get home from work, that last thing that I want to do is listen to someone yapping at me, so I try to save that for the weekend.

How is gaming different than hiking? Hiking to the top of a mountain is counterproductive. Sure, you lose a few calories, but you don't need to hike to the top, you are not being chased by bears. You are also not solving world hunger, or fighting the war on terror. You are also being antisocial if you do it alone. But, you have set a goal in your mind, the desire to reach that goal, and the mental reward or pat on the back for your efforts.

It's all about balance and realizing that what others do, no matter how stupid it seems to you, creates a sense of joy and excitement that allows them a small chunk of pleasure in a generally chaotic world.

[Kelegacy]

I wasn't calling the HOBBY unproductive. I was calling an existence that never strays away from a contrller unproductive. What's the point of living if you aren't going to? And you make a great point. Balance. I love pizza but can't eat it for every meal. And the sun comes up for a reason each day. It brings life. Get outside once a year and stay out there for fifteen minutes or so. Say hi to another human beyond the internet. I am a game lover and have been playing a good portion of my 25 years of life, but everything is better in moderation. I've felt depression starting to sit in when staring at my computer screen playing a long RPG after a week of steady gaming. It's real and it happens. No wonder so many people are on meds.

And to be honest, productivity's root meaning is "to produce". What are you producing when you are playing a game or watching tv? To use Perigon's writer analogy, a writer is producing even while being addicted to his job/hobby. He is creating something. Leisure is a huge part of life, and there is no arguing that. But remember the ants, you grasshoppers. Remember the ants.

[Kelegacy]

How is gaming different than hiking? Hiking to the top of a mountain is counterproductive. Sure, you lose a few calories, but you don't need to hike to the top, you are not being chased by bears. You are also not solving world hunger, or fighting the war on terror. You are also being antisocial if you do it alone. But, you have set a goal in your mind, the desire to reach that goal, and the mental reward or pat on the back for your efforts.

Don't compare hiking to gaming. One has benefits that destroy the comparison entirely. I love gaming, but that's just silly.

[anakin876]

Don't compare hiking to gaming. One has benefits that destroy the comparison entirely. I love gaming, but that's just silly.

The benefits of hiking - being able to hike more often and better.
The benefits of gaming - being able to game more (more stamina in the butt) and being better at gaming.

If you hike enough you may prolong your life (unless you get cancer and it kills you early) but what do you do with that prolonged life? Hike more? Seems like a vicious little circle to me. Seems to me happiness should be a stronger factor in these comparisons. Do you enjoy your life more when you hike? If you do, then hike. If you prefer gaming, then game. Yes, hiking will make you more physically fit - but what does that mean other than you can hike more? The health benefits are nice - but not if you hate hiking.

Why would I exercise so that I can live longer to exercise more if I hate exercising? If I don't like exercising why would I want to do it for 5-10 more years?

[Johan]

Calling WoW a possible addiction probably first requires a definition of what an addiction really is, which is...

# a. Compulsive physiological and psychological need for a habit-forming substance: a drug used in the treatment of heroin addiction. b. An instance of this: a person with multiple chemical addictions.

# a. The condition of being habitually or compulsively occupied with or involved in something. b. An instance of this: had an addiction for fast cars.

I think most addiction counselors/psychologists/psychiatrists would define addiction as a compulsion which impacts the individual in negative ways. It could be a physical dependency, it could be a withdrawal/isolation from others, it could be economic distress (as in gambling compulsively or losing your job due to the compulsion).

I won't get into my own personal experience, but I can say directly that an addiction does NOT have to be chemically-based. Anything that ultimately is detrimental to the individual and is a compulsion is an addiction.

Been there, done that...thank God I'm out of it :)

BTW: Prior to teaching, I worked as a counselor with troubled youths for five years, as well.

[Dag-Sabot]

Productive? What is productive? I consider productivity to be enjoying what little time I have in life, and if that means sitting around on my ass playing games, then that is what I'll do.

Productivity by definition means to produce ie. "Work". If sitting on your ass pays the light bill, then you're working.
What you're describing is a leisure activity. As leisure activities go, shooting heroin or playing WOW is equally counter "productive".

[Swat]

I think you're taking it to the extreme in this situation, as if literally there is a nation of troll like creatures who's faces would melt off in agony at the sight of that big bright ball of fun in the sky. People taking it to the extreme are in every walk of life. I guess I'm talking more about the "average-hardcore" gamer, or WoW player. Not the one that poops in a pan by his bed to cut out raiding down time and still lives at home. Pardon me if we are talking about those extreme types.

I think you can dive a bit deeper into the meaning behind productivity as well. I could spend all day writing Star Wars fan fiction, producing things from my own head, and it could still suck and have no positive impact on the world, or society in general. Is productivity only valid if the finished product changes something for the better?

Or are the real troopers - you know, the ones at the soup kitchens on the weekends, handing out needles to recovering drug addicts and prostitutes, building churches in foreign countries. Are these the people, who are so giving, the only ones who are actually providing a positive life experience by sacrificing their own hobbies and desires?

Maybe it was better to use a different analogy than hiking as one is outdoors. So I guess insert any hobby that doesn't require physical, strenous activity (bird watching, stamp collecting, nascar tailgater, armchair quarterback) - or any other selfish hobby that doesn't advance mankind or help the poor.

I do know what you mean about staring at the screen too long, it's never a good thing . But it's never a good thing to do too much of anything. Just like you said, balance. Some people can maintain that balance, a minority cannot. Sometimes you go over from one side to the other - but this is normal.

I think the bottom, bottom line is that it's not the game, the hobby, or the drug, it's the individual. Sometimes they just can't separate this balance, and if it's hurting them, they need to have help, because there's going to be far greater temptations in this world than a video game, that's for sure.

PS: I'm at work, so this is TERRIBLY unproductive. But it's making me happy, and hey, that's what counts in the end :D

[sardonic_wrath]

I disagree with this assessment. I think a lot of people are trying to combine the ideas of addiction (where you become DEPENDANT on something) and simply not having any interest in doing other things. If you knew a writer, who did nothing but write and had no interest in other activities, would you say he is addicted to writing? This isn't like cocaine or heroine, your body would not go into chemical withdrawl if you stop playing WoW.

You, my friend, need a reality check. Anybody can be addicted to anything, mentally or physically. Having "no interest in doing other things" is definitely not a sign of a healthy person, no matter what they're doing, be it writing or playing video games. All that is needed to become addicted to something is an obsession.

Plus, many people have addictive personalities (like me). I'm a former drug addict, and I've noticed ever since taking Addiction Studies, that my addictive personality continues to take place, whether it be the gym, video games, music, or anything else. Please, educate yourself before you speak on something that is clearly beyond your grasp.

[Zeal]

A psychological dependence on something can indeed cause physical withdrawls.

Then again, anyone addicted to a videogame is a fucking fruitcake to begin with.

Now all I have to do is get my little idiot brother off Myspace.

EDIT: Oh by the way, I wanted to show you all a great example of psychologically fucked individuals. In the event this forum died, its users would proceed to organize a suicide party. Without a doubt the worst online community I've ever been to. Stay clear.

www.gamingforce.com

[anakin876]

You, my friend, need a reality check. Anybody can be addicted to anything, mentally or physically. Having "no interest in doing other things" is definitely not a sign of a healthy person, no matter what they're doing, be it writing or playing video games. All that is needed to become addicted to something is an obsession.

interesting facts - one of the parts of a clinical diagnosis of depression is "the inability to take pleasure in normal activities." One of the criteria we require the teenage sex offenders I work with to acheive is "the ability to take pleasure in normal activities." If you only find pleasure in whatever it is you are obsessed by then, generally speaking, there is definitely a psychological problem there.

To bring this directly onto topic - if you only take pleasure in WoW then you have reached a point where there is at least a phsycological dysfunction occuring. This brings to my previous post about neurotransmitters - if a psychological dysfunction continues for too long then the brain's production of neurotransmitters is screwed the hell up - which then creates a chemical dependency or dysfunction as well.

[Swat]

I don't see the need for hostility here, just opinions. (it wasn't directed at me, but still, lets not internet-forum-threadpoop until it's too late)

We are humans. When we find something that makes us go "Wheeee!" we tend to follow it. It's called "The Pursuit of Happiness"(tm). That's why we live, to go "Wheee!" and to make others around us happy by going "Wheeee!". Sometimes we want one thing that goes "Wheee!" all the time, and it spoils our dinner, and does not so nice things to our health and mental state. That's when we need to diversify our ol' portfolio to find some more "Wheeee!" things to do to balance it out.

Plus, work is generally the "Anti-Wheee!" so the more time we spend doing that, the more "Wheee!" we want in return. But without "Anti-Wheee!" it makes it hard to enjoy the real "Wheee!".

Submit that to an Addiction Specialist. Stat!

[anakin876]

"Wheee!".

I'm gonna have to hold onto that one. Nicely done.

[sardonic_wrath]

I don't see the need for hostility here, just opinions. (it wasn't directed at me, but still, lets not internet-forum-threadpoop until it's too late)



I'm not trying to start animosity or dump all over this thread. I guess I was somewhat angered when someone who obviously knows nothing about addiction tries to say that addiction is only a physical dependence.

[makkura]

i can quit whenever i want......oh who am i kidding..o_0

[Kelegacy]

The benefits of hiking - being able to hike more often and better.
The benefits of gaming - being able to game more (more stamina in the butt) and being better at gaming.

If you hike enough you may prolong your life (unless you get cancer and it kills you early) but what do you do with that prolonged life? Hike more? Seems like a vicious little circle to me. Seems to me happiness should be a stronger factor in these comparisons. Do you enjoy your life more when you hike? If you do, then hike. If you prefer gaming, then game. Yes, hiking will make you more physically fit - but what does that mean other than you can hike more? The health benefits are nice - but not if you hate hiking.

Why would I exercise so that I can live longer to exercise more if I hate exercising? If I don't like exercising why would I want to do it for 5-10 more years?

You do know that exercising takes very little time, right? If you did it for a half hour a day, 7 days a week, to get those 5-10 extra years tacked onto your life...well, you'd be dumb NOT to do it. Exercising isn't a full time thing. I do it and can still play games for hours at a time. Because you like one thing doesn't mean you cannot enjoy another. And that's what I am talking about: do other things with your time besides sitting on your ass. We all love games or we wouldn't be here. But we have to admit that there is more to life besides those damn videogames.

[Dag-Sabot]

All work and no play makes swat a dull boy, apparently.

[sardonic_wrath]

You do know that exercising takes very little time, right? If you did it for a half hour a day, 7 days a week, to get those 5-10 extra years tacked onto your life...well, you'd be dumb NOT to do it. Exercising isn't a full time thing. I do it and can still play games for hours at a time. Because you like one thing doesn't mean you cannot enjoy another. And that's what I am talking about: do other things with your time besides sitting on your ass. We all love games or we wouldn't be here. But we have to admit that there is more to life besides those damn videogames.

Well said. I was addicted to games last summer, I couldn't stop playing Guild Wars (haha). But then I learned a healthy balance to my life, and I feel so much better, happy and active. Work, gym, computer, video games, friends, girlfriend, playing guitar, listening to music, etc. are what make my life balanced and complete.

[Swat]

All work and no play makes swat a dull boy, apparently.

The remedy? Zombies and exploding propane tanks. Really, it's the best thing to do after a long day in the office.

[Johan]

I'm not trying to start animosity or dump all over this thread. I guess I was somewhat angered when someone who obviously knows nothing about addiction tries to say that addiction is only a physical dependence.

I agree...that's ridiculous.

[Dag-Sabot]

I suggest we all score some crystal meth tonight and reconvene in say 2-3 weeks, with our thoughts and experiences on addiction. Then we can all be on the same page, plus or minus a few teeth. Oh yeah, Ride the snake!

[Tentaro]

Addiction: A chronic relapsing condition characterized by compulsive drug-seeking and abuse and by long-lasting chemical changes in the brain. Addiction is the same irrespective of whether the drug is alcohol, amphetamines, cocaine, heroin, marijuana, or nicotine. Every addictive substance induces pleasant states or relieves distress. Continued use of the addictive substance induces adaptive changes in the brain that lead to tolerance, physical dependence, uncontrollable craving and, all too often, relapse. Dependence is at such a point that stopping is very difficult and causes severe physical and mental reactions from withdrawal. The risk of addiction is in part inherited. Genetic factors, for example, account for about 40% of the risk of alcoholism. The genetic factors predisposing to addiction are not yet fully understood.

[Phanto]

I think the game is fine, is true that maybe have some "things" that keep you "hooked" in front of the computer for hours, days or night. Maybe the game isn't an addiction but its true that have some elements that make it sound or view like an addiction.
The game maybe don't keep you playing and skipping some importants things that you must do in real live, but its true that when you don't have anything "important" to attend you are playing right away, but that happend to only some people we could say 40% :rolleyes: