Street Fighter II: Hyper Fighting now available for download on XBL

[WpnX]

For everyone who's been waiting ages for this, Street Fighter II: Hyper Fighting is now available on XBox Live for the 360.

Be sure to exercise your button mashing fingers at work today.

[Kefkataran]

Ahh, the big one finally comes.

[Lekon]

The difficulty of the AI is.. wonky. The AI isn't there, its more like they took the cheapest kid from the arcade and had him as a model.

[Heretic Machine]

Gonna try the demo... I'm a bit put off by it's price tag though. This game should never of been more than 400 points.

EDIT: Two complaints... first, the game is in a little box instead of widescreen. My smart streatching feature doesn't work for this because of the way it is implimented... Second, I can't play it. The D-pad is too far into the controller. If it were about a quarter of an inch to the left, it'd be fine, but I can't seem to use it for something like this. The DoA arcade stick would definetly come in handy right about now.

[Ashiitaka]

How many points is it ?

[Redline]

Button mashing? Sorry buddy, but this isn't Soul Calibur or Tekken 85. This is a fighting game that actually required some amount of skill on the harder difficulty levels. Kids these days, no respect. ;)

[romis138]

It's 800 points.

[Savok]

If I exercise my fingers I'll set off my arthritic one.

[bapenguin]

How's the lag?

Perigon - from what I understand is there is an internal stretch mode (like in frogger)

[holysin]

800 points? yeah... I´d have bought it if it was 400, but i´d only pay 800 on an Xbox Live version of SFA3, one of the Vs games, or even SF3.

I´ll still get the demo, maybe it´ll convince me.

[jeffool]

Eh, I'd pay that for SF2 over SF3, but that's just me. Can't wait to make this my first XBLA purchase! (Y'know, when I get one.)

[mojo_x]

:D

I've just spent the last 30 minutes playing some games over Live and it was amazing fun. More so than I expected. There is slow-down (it seems to slow down in time with the connection speed) but somehow that didn't manage to take away from the fun factor.

I haven't played anyone local (in Australia) yet so hopefully the slow-down will be eliminated that way.

Also, using the thumbstick is surprisingly easier (IMHO) than using the wonky 360 dpad. Quarter circles and half-circles come off consistently and without much effort. Which is great for all your haduken needs :)

[Savok]

The 360 has probably the shittiest d-pad I've ever used. How the rest of the controller can be so great, and then so lacking in that one area I'll never understand.

[Savok]

Well I got the trial and I can't beat the computer, this is nothing new as I've always bee terrible at fighters. That said, I really hate the back triggers on the 360 pad...

Hooray I won after screwing with the control layout.

[Johan]

The 360 has probably the shittiest d-pad I've ever used. How the rest of the controller can be so great, and then so lacking in that one area I'll never understand.

QFT...way too sensitive to stray movements.

I'm looking forward to checking this one out this evening, too!!!

[phantomhitman]

glad i do not have any ms points to spend

[Eran Hawke]

I can't wait to give this a try. I've never bood good at fighters, but I love to play.

I agree, 800 sounds like much. I'll probably play the demo and wait for the price to drop in 6 months. Or scoop up the Nintendo Virtual Console version for cheaper.

[EvlD99]

I can't wait to give this a try. I've never bood good at fighters, but I love to play.

I agree, 800 sounds like much. I'll probably play the demo and wait for the price to drop in 6 months. Or scoop up the Nintendo Virtual Console version for cheaper.

The nintendo virtual console one would not be online. Also, how would you know how much it would cost?

[Kelegacy]

See, I'm thinking of subscribing to XBL again, but I don't want to pay for a whole year in case the PS3 forces Live to be free this fall. I don't know, I might just do it anyway. I'd like to play some SF against you bastards.

[Serapth]

See, I'm thinking of subscribing to XBL again, but I don't want to pay for a whole year in case the PS3 forces Live to be free this fall. I don't know, I might just do it anyway. I'd like to play some SF against you bastards.


Cant you buy 3 month Live cards at retail?

[JazGalaxy]

I'm not understanding the fervor for this game. WHy is it better than the SF3 anniversary collection that came out on Xbox? That game was, af far as I can tell, this Xbox Live game times, like, 15.

[Mdot23]

See, I'm thinking of subscribing to XBL again, but I don't want to pay for a whole year in case the PS3 forces Live to be free this fall. I don't know, I might just do it anyway. I'd like to play some SF against you bastards.

is it still $50 for a year? or is that just for existing users? either way, i still think its a good value for about the price of a game.

[bone_matrix]

See, I'm thinking of subscribing to XBL again, but I don't want to pay for a whole year in case the PS3 forces Live to be free this fall. I don't know, I might just do it anyway. I'd like to play some SF against you bastards.

Click here (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000B9RI00/ref=nosim/102-6229898-8440143?n=468642) and thank me later. 13 months of Xbox Live for 36 bucks. (Actually, thank www.cheapassgamer.com).

Now, I just need to get me SF2, and my day will be complete (well, after finishing 10 hours of work, and putting my new futon frame together, but close enough.)

[Bauerknight]

You can get a 13 months card of Live at amazon right now for 35.82 free shipping & no taxhere (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000B9RI00)

[King Drewsky]

The PS3 will not force XBL to be free. Are you kidding me? I don't want XBL to be free. I don't some damn Timmy cheating his ass off and getting his XBL account banned only to have him open up a new one because they don't cost money anymore. No thankee. There is a price to play with me.

Oh, and 800 for this game is worth it because of the quarter match mode. Most of the other 400 pt games don't have lobby systems like SFII has. However, my games this morning were extremely laggy. That better be because I was playing internationals and not because the game is just laggy.

[Kelegacy]

Cant you buy 3 month Live cards at retail?
Probably, I'll have to check. I don't have any games to play on Live, but I'll have to start now. I've been using my 360 a lot lately anyway.

[LilAbner]

Button mashing? Sorry buddy, but this isn't Soul Calibur or Tekken 85. This is a fighting game that actually required some amount of skill on the harder difficulty levels. Kids these days, no respect. ;)

Yep. I will completely destroy any and all button mashers.

[Serapth]

Probably, I'll have to check. I don't have any games to play on Live, but I'll have to start now. I've been using my 360 a lot lately anyway.

Someone posted a pretty sweet online deal a while back, that worked out to 3 months live plus I think 800 points, for about 20$ I think it was.

[Kelegacy]

The PS3 will not force XBL to be free. Are you kidding me? I don't want XBL to be free. I don't some damn Timmy cheating his ass off and getting his XBL account banned only to have him open up a new one because they don't cost money anymore. No thankee. There is a price to play with me.

You don't want something to be free? Are you daft, man?

[Bauerknight]

Just downloaded the demo, you only get to play Ryu or Guile for one match before it says game over.

Hard to do the moves on the xbox 360 D-pad.

[AgtFox]

You don't want something to be free? Are you daft, man?
I don't think that is necessarily what he is saying. Think about it more this way:

Xbox Live = centralized system (Microsoft runs everything through Live and doesn't depend on the publishers/developers to set up and maintain servers), for most games all it takes is the initial $50 to play online (except for something like FF XI).

PS3 Online = decentralized system (meaning servers are to be set up and run by publishers/developers of games versus Sony handling them), you may have to pay for use of publisher/developer server to play games per game. At face value the system is free, but if you want to play online it may end up costing more in the end where they may make you pay to play games online outside of the MMORPG genre.

In the end I'd rather pay $50 for the centralized system than get a decentralized one for free knowing that the publishers/developers will most likely make you pay to play online because the cost of maintaining servers would be overwhelming. It would be awesome if it was free, but I just don't see that happening simply because you are talking about two totally different online business models here.

I also played a bit of SF2 this morning and I found that control via the left analog stick was pretty darn good...not sure why you guys are using the D-pad. Don't know if I'll buy the full version or not, like someone previously said I'd be more excited if this was SFA3 or even SF3. SF2 is a fantastic game, I just don't know if it is worth 800 points to be honest.

[protocol_image]

Wow, so many people hating on the D-Pad. For DOA4, the D-Pad was the only way I could pull off precision moves. Sigh.....if only I could use my X-Arcade :(

[BleedTheFreak]

This may sound stupid, but I was hoping the graphics would be bumped up to high res HD. I thought all Arcade games had this. Sure, I can make the window really small, then it looks nice, but who wants to play in a fucking window the size of a paperback?

I might still pick it up, I purchased points just to do so, but maybe I'll get cloning clyde instead.

[Mortis]

Bought it before I did cardio this morning. The AI is fucking cheap as hell, at least it makes some of the achievements hard to get. I'll have to play some Live, I suck at the game though so hopefully I can find someone who sucks also.

The control seems to be sketchy as well, sometimes I can pull off everything I want with the analog stick...then I hit a streak where I can't do anything even though I am doing the moves the same way. I am not sure if I like the pad or stick more at this point.

[Pantsmonkey]

Wow, so many people hating on the D-Pad. For DOA4, the D-Pad was the only way I could pull off precision moves. Sigh.....if only I could use my X-Arcade :(

Yeh I have been playing all the SF games using an wired USB X360 controller for the last couple of months. The reason it's so "shitty" is because that DPAD / POV hat is a hell of a lot more travel than the Snes Dpad ever did.

Its technically much better than Dpads used to be but that doesn't change the fact that it's ARSE for playing 2D fighters.

I have a Snes pad as P1 and X360 for P2 there just isnt any comparison. Sure people will bitch and moan than me and everyone else who cannot pull of moves is a noob and yes it does get better as you retrain your play style inspite of the POV hat switch but IMO the RnD for that controller didn't put a hell of a lot of importance on dragon punch moves.

If Killer Instinct 3 ever hits on Xbox 360 I won't be playing with that controller thats for damn sure!

Zangeifs moves anyone?

[AniAko]

I may need time to adjust. It's been eons since I've retired my SFII crown at the local arcade. Currently I'm trained up on MVC2. So I'm going to have to re-visit my old SFII abilities. I say around the holidays, after things simmer down and we've gotten time to train, we hold a SFII EvAv tournament. I REALLY want to see who the best SFII player is

[Mdot23]

you think microsoft would ever consider altering the d-pad a little bit? its definetly been complained about enough to warrant a change. the only problem i really have with it is pressing right. never seems to register properly for me.

[Wyrm]

The D-pad sucks. I can't even use it to play any of the freaking arcade games because it's so poorly conceived. I miss the days when the d-pad was actually a freaking d-pad. I love my xbox, and I love the 360 controller, but that's one thing that just really sucks about it. It's a huge deterrent for games like this. I probably won't be buying it, because I don't want to have to play a fighting game with a thumbstick, and I sure as hell wont be trying to play it with the shitty excuse for a dpad.

Oh well, I'll wait for Lumines.

[wastedyears]

Button mashing? Sorry buddy, but this isn't Soul Calibur or Tekken 85. This is a fighting game that actually required some amount of skill on the harder difficulty levels. Kids these days, no respect. ;)
I couldn't agree more. Except for the Tekken part. Button mashing won't get you very far against anyone who knows how to play Tekken, and you will get shredded by anyone who actually knows how to play Street Fighter. If button mashing is you thing..I suggest Soul Calibur, Dead or Alive, or Mortal Kombat. :)
If you really want to play Street Fighter, get the SF Alpha Anthology for Ps2. Or even the Capcom Classics Collection.

[swillw]

I agree with the D-pad being useless. I want a joystick!

Still a good deal of fun online, they should have made a tournament mode though

[f1sh3r]

I don't think that is necessarily what he is saying. Think about it more this way:

Xbox Live = centralized system (Microsoft runs everything through Live and doesn't depend on the publishers/developers to set up and maintain servers), for most games all it takes is the initial $50 to play online (except for something like FF XI).

PS3 Online = decentralized system (meaning servers are to be set up and run by publishers/developers of games versus Sony handling them), you may have to pay for use of publisher/developer server to play games per game. At face value the system is free, but if you want to play online it may end up costing more in the end where they may make you pay to play games online outside of the MMORPG genre.

In the end I'd rather pay $50 for the centralized system than get a decentralized one for free knowing that the publishers/developers will most likely make you pay to play online because the cost of maintaining servers would be overwhelming. It would be awesome if it was free, but I just don't see that happening simply because you are talking about two totally different online business models here.

I also played a bit of SF2 this morning and I found that control via the left analog stick was pretty darn good...not sure why you guys are using the D-pad. Don't know if I'll buy the full version or not, like someone previously said I'd be more excited if this was SFA3 or even SF3. SF2 is a fantastic game, I just don't know if it is worth 800 points to be honest.

i thought it was pretty clear what he was saying. people are less likely to cheat because it costs them money to start a new account if they get the one they are using banned. if accounts were free, there would be no reason at all not to cheat (other than not being a punk ass kid) because it would be free to start a new xbl account and continue the way of the assmunchkin. altho i don't think this really stops people, because i see idiot kids hacking up halo 2 pretty much every time i play.

about the game. there is an internal stretching thing that seems to look fine. it's not like the game is HD or anything. 800 points is a lot, but it's sf2, so i guess it's worth it. i don't remember the AI in the arcade being so cheap, but it's been a long time so who knows. and the left stick works better than the dpad. i'd still rather have a 6 button arcade stick, but what can you do.

[EternalGamer]

You know what game kicked ass? Street Fighter Vs. X-men on the Saturn with that 4MB cart thingy. Man, I played that game to death. More than the original SF. But I agree with a lot of what people here are saying. For me the original SF is dated but the deal breaker is the damn 360 D-pad. It drives me crazy just trying to switch spells on it in Oblivion. There is no way in hell I am going to try to use that thing to do dragon punches. I still recall the pain that came from trying to play the original Tekken on the Playstation and all the blisters that resulted. Why has nobody made a decent D-pad since the Saturn and it's Japanese slim model pad? I still have a bunch of those pads and they kick ass:

http://image.lik-sang.com/images/170/ps2-saturn-controller.jpg


Best 2D fighter controller ever!

[agentgray]

i thought it was pretty clear what he was saying. people are less likely to cheat because it costs them money to start a new account if they get the one they are using banned. if accounts were free, there would be no reason at all not to cheat (other than not being a punk ass kid) because it would be free to start a new xbl account and continue the way of the assmunchkin. altho i don't think this really stops people, because i see idiot kids hacking up halo 2 pretty much every time i play.

about the game. there is an internal stretching thing that seems to look fine. it's not like the game is HD or anything. 800 points is a lot, but it's sf2, well worth it. i don't remember the AI in the arcade being so cheap, but it's been a long time so who knows. and the left stick works better than the dpad. i'd still rather have a 6 button arcade stick, but what can you do.
I'm gonna hijack the thread here and help you out with credibility. English sentences usually start with a capital letter. At first, I thought you were just taking the easy way out and not capping, but then I noticed that you used some capital letters in there. It's just a peeve and not meant to reflect on my opinion of the content of your post. :D

</hijack off>

[Selar]

I couldn't agree more. Except for the Tekken part. Button mashing won't get you very far against anyone who knows how to play Tekken, and you will get shredded by anyone who actually knows how to play Street Fighter. If button mashing is you thing..I suggest Soul Calibur, Dead or Alive, or Mortal Kombat. :)
If you really want to play Street Fighter, get the SF Alpha Anthology for Ps2. Or even the Capcom Classics Collection.

Button mashing doesn't work in any fighting game against people that are good at it. Don't people realize this?

[romis138]

The lag is unbearable at most times. You can only play quarters matches because the classic 1 on 1 style is nearly empty, at least at the moment -- I guess it MAY change soon.

The game is basically a fight against the clock to see who can manipulate the lag to their advantage. Examples of this are throwing and especially sweeping characters that aren't near you(I'm sure Dhalsim will become a fan favorite of this) and linking moves that usually can't be linked by abuse of lag. My connection is solid 17MB download and 700 KB upload, this is all the fault of X-Box Live and/or poor netcode. Even in games where lag is minimal, you can still manipulate collision. There seems to be some issues joining games and also connection losses.

Aside from that, the game seems to be pretty bugged on it's initial release..which is suprising to me and not acceptable due to the time we waited and price. Hit detection is very warped.

For gameplay issues, there isn't really much to say..I haven't tried single player yet, so I can't comment on the difficulty issues everyone is having(many are saying the difficulty is upped tenfold). The controller is god awful for this game, and it's sad seeing people punch at the air and ground trying to pull off a simple down->downforward->forward maneuver. My brother is making a custom joystick, so it should help a bit, though.

For some reason, I have yet to be in a game without seeing "Establishing Connection" at some point in the game, new players joining and leaving being one of the reasons.

In short, if this game is one of the reasons you're looking to get a 360..I'd hold off longer. ZSNES netplay is much more stable, fun and fast paced than this any day.

[Bauerknight]

Aside from that, the game seems to be pretty bugged on it's initial release..which is suprising to me and not acceptable due to the time we waited and price. Hit detection is very warped.


You say "initial release." I'm not too familiar with XBLA, but are there such things as patches for the arcade games? Has it been done before?

[holysin]

ZSNES netplay is much more stable, fun and fast paced than this any day.

If that´s the case, then so is the CPS2 version with winkawaks :)

[claws]

Ok, it's been a long time since my SF days.... but jesus, this is hard! Even that fireball spamming Ryu guy is kicking my ass. I'm sure hitting all the buttons used to work when I was a kid.

[Bydo_Empire]

I played the demo for a little while, and while I used to kick all kinds of ass, I could barely pull of any moves at all. Not sure if it's the dpad or not, but it's just not playable. This is from someone who actually played a tons of Capcom vs. SNK and SF3: Third Strike on the Dreamcast's miserable floaty dpad. Something is definitely amiss, and I won't be buying.

[LarsenNET]

You say "initial release." I'm not too familiar with XBLA, but are there such things as patches for the arcade games? Has it been done before?

Yes, they patched Uno.

[DirtyChimp]

What is 800 points equivalent to in dollars?

[LarsenNET]

What is 800 points equivalent to in dollars?

800 Points = $10.

[Watership]

The 360 has probably the shittiest d-pad I've ever used. How the rest of the controller can be so great, and then so lacking in that one area I'll never understand.

Its more sensitive than the xbox's d-pad, which it looks just like, and the ps2's is 4 buttons. Are you sure it's the shittiest?

[soco]

My connection is solid 17MB download and 700 KB upload, this is all the fault of X-Box Live and/or poor netcode. Even in games where lag is minimal, you can still manipulate collision. There seems to be some issues joining games and also connection losses.

your theoretical network bandwith is mostly inconsequential for lag. it's also not a problem with xboxlive, since xboxlive pretty much just handles matchmaking and such. the most likely problem is the emulation, as every one of the emulated games has network issues. the problem is that the emulated host is expecting all input data without any delay, and even on a local network, there's going to be a minor delay, anyone over the network will have at least a 20-30ms delay unless perhaps they're your neighbor and on the same provider. without the leeway, the host would have a huge advantage, that would make the game unplayable.

even games that aren't emulated have issues with this. COD2 is pretty bad in this respect, as i can shoot after i've watched someone run around a corner, and still kill them, because i'm lagging to the server, and it allows it. it sucks, but until network latency comes down across the board, we're gonna have to live this or N64 style multiplayer (or system link).

can't wait to try it out when i get home. :D

[Mdot23]

In short, if this game is one of the reasons you're looking to get a 360..I'd hold off longer.

why would somebody buy a $400 next-gen console for a 20 year old game? i'm sure some people are, but i find that mindboggling stupid.

[AniAko]

why would somebody buy a $400 next-gen console for a 20 year old game? i'm sure some people are, but i find that mindboggling stupid.

Because you can play it online with the world. I was a local champ at the game, which has become a pinnacle point in gaming history. Now I can take on the world and see if I'm really as good as I thought I was? That alone is worth it for some people.

[Ajguy]

I played the trial last night (I happened to be up) and got creamed by the AI. Don't know if it was control issues, because I suck, or because it was 4am and I was exhausted. I'm gonna try it more today. This was a no brainer purchase, but now I'm wondering if I want to get Cloning Clyde instead.

[f1sh3r]

I'm gonna hijack the thread here and help you out with credibility. English sentences usually start with a capital letter. At first, I thought you were just taking the easy way out and not capping, but then I noticed that you used some capital letters in there. It's just a peeve and not meant to reflect on my opinion of the content of your post. :D

</hijack off>

yeah i've found it irks people over the years. i never learned to use the shift keys correctly and it took its toll on my wrists once upon a time. now i just try to avoid it unless i need to emphasize, or for some reason my brain decides something has to be capped. i find my credibility tends to be fine tho, especially considering this is a video game site. now if i forget how to spell, please hijack my posts because people who can't spell simple words (or complex words, dictionary.com is but a click away) is a pet peeve of mine.

[Islanti]

Regarding all the complaints about the Xbox 360 D-Pad... is anyone using the DOA4 Arcade Stick (http://gear.ign.com/articles/689/689498p1.html) with this game? It should work since it emulates the D-Pad. I haven't had a chance to try it myself, though. I expect that would help significantly.

[Bishop]

How many points is it ?

Any is Too Many!

[laggerific]

The 360 has probably the shittiest d-pad I've ever used. How the rest of the controller can be so great, and then so lacking in that one area I'll never understand.

SOOOOO friggin true...I'm constantly amazed that people aren't rising up like they did with the fatpad from the original xbox...

the main issue is that the core directions require a very accurate push to achieve...which is difficult with their design of the controller. The same goes for trying to use it to navigate menus and is where I see it stand out the most.

[Ajguy]

Well, I ended up buying it and I love it. My room mate and I played some heated vs. matches and I played some online with only one instance of major lag. My advice, remap the controls to put quick attacks on the triggers and your medium and heavy on the face buttons. It made a world of difference for me.

[Kefkataran]

Kelegacy, you know that if you don't want to pay for a full year of XBL you can pay for a single month or three months, right? My account just expired so I bought another three months.

On-topic: I'll be downloading/buying this when I get home this weekend. Looking forward to sucking.

[Sl1pstream]

You don't want something to be free? Are you daft, man?

Why would anyone care if they got banned if it's free? Paying for something makes you think twice about acting like an idiot. Sure, Live isn't exactly an idiot-free environment, but it's a lot better now than it would be without the cost.

Downloaded this this morning. Didn't really have the time to play it yet.

[Hilden]

Downloaded it and it's good. I've found that the thumbstick is better than the d-pad. At least for me. I also remaped the buttons in much the same way as Ajguy and it's a better fit for me.

Played a couple of Live matches and didn't notice any lag. I'm sure some of those matches will show up. I'm just hoping it's not Frogger lag.

I still suck, however, and I'll need a lot of practice but it's a great time so far.

[Torgo]

Hilden's just using the Thumbstick because I told him that it's better :-)

So far I love it. I only played on game online, so I'll get a better feel for that once I get home form work.

[EternalGamer]

Why would anyone care if they got banned if it's free? Paying for something makes you think twice about acting like an idiot. Sure, Live isn't exactly an idiot-free environment, but it's a lot better now than it would be without the cost.

Downloaded this this morning. Didn't really have the time to play it yet.


Why would they care? Becaue they got banned. That means they can't play online anymore. And making it free would give MS more leeway to bann people that are like that. Anyway, just building up a friends list seems like it would solve the problem of quality control. The internet is free and yes there are alot of cesspool sites, but it is worth it because you still can find quality discussions of issues. Making Xbox Live free would not make the quality of the experience go down. You control the quality of the experience by who you decide to play with.

[Phades]

Kelegacy, you know that if you don't want to pay for a full year of XBL you can pay for a single month or three months, right? My account just expired so I bought another three months.

On-topic: I'll be downloading/buying this when I get home this weekend. Looking forward to sucking.

If this was really that big of an issue Microsoft could just filter people on the basis of their MAC address instead of the account. Sure, there's ways around that but the common twelve year old isn't going to be able to figure that out.

I have no problem with Microsoft charging their $50/year for Live and feel it's completely worth it. That said, I can see no convincing argument as to why it'd be a bad thing if they decided to make it free.

[Kelegacy]

Why would they care? Becaue they got banned. That means they can't play online anymore. And making it free would give MS more leeway to bann people that are like that. Anyway, just building up a friends list seems like it would solve the problem of quality control. The internet is free and yes there are alot of cesspool sites, but it is worth it because you still can find quality discussions of issues. Making Xbox Live free would not make the quality of the experience go down. You control the quality of the experience by who you decide to play with.
Yeah, I mean Evil Avatar is free to view and post, yet it hasn't become a giant suckfest. Sure we have bad seeds that tend to ruin certain threads, and we do resort to banning at times, but for the most part we govern ourselves. I think if I played against some random kid who cheated I'd just block him and be on my way. It won't ruin my life if I lose a few matches to some guy snaking in Mario Kart. When this stuff happens I realize I would rather play against the people on my friends list than strangers. Free would be good. Yeah, $20 per gallon of gas would keep the streets from being packed with cars, but I think I could handle occasional traffic jams if gas was free.

I don't think friends would be as apt to cheat, but hey, I've fucked a few of my friends' girlfriends, so who knows. ;)

What the fuck is up with me and analogies lately? I suck. :(

[DeadScreenSky]

Here's a simple mod you can do to make the X360 d-pad perform a lot better. (http://www.ufighterx.com/guides/videogame/360dpadfix/360dpadfix.htm) I actually haven't done it yet, though I plan to change that in a couple hours. (I was working on a custom mod previously that I just never got reliable enough.) I've heard lots of praise for this though, so it should be solid.

I'm not doing it for this terrible SFII port (http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=7314425&publicUserId=5380122) of course, but it should be great for other X360 usage.

[Darkmatter]

So is this arcade quality graphics (for that time period) or console quality (for that time period.)?

[DeadScreenSky]

Arcade quality graphics, but the gameplay is from the old busted PS1 port (potentially with some new bugs, I'm not sure).

(Though I think some stages might have graphics slowdown. I'm pretty sure I heard that...)

[Schnoogs]

I'm a huge SFII fan. I've been eagerly awaiting this port for quite some time.

Initial reactions....first off what the hell is up with the difficulty settings?!?!?!?!?

Second off could the XBox controller suck any worse for this game??!?!?!?

[Johan]

I'm a huge SFII fan. I've been eagerly awaiting this port for quite some time.

Initial reactions....first off what the hell is up with the difficulty settings?!?!?!?!?

Second off could the XBox controller suck any worse for this game??!?!?!?

I'm bummed about both of those issues...I don't know if I'll be buying or deleting it; such promise...it hurts, it hurts :(

[Savok]

Its more sensitive than the xbox's d-pad, which it looks just like, and the ps2's is 4 buttons. Are you sure it's the shittiest?
I actually liked the Xbox d-pad. Not a lot mind you, but enough to use it from time to time. I can't actually get the 360's d-pad to anything I ask it to.

[Jack B]

Why would anyone care if they got banned if it's free? Paying for something makes you think twice about acting like an idiot. Sure, Live isn't exactly an idiot-free environment, but it's a lot better now than it would be without the cost.

Downloaded this this morning. Didn't really have the time to play it yet.

Yep.... I couldn't agree more! I dread what Live will look like if it's free for an account... I'm praying for Microsoft to keep charging. I've rarely seen a business dedicate as many resources to improving something that's "FREE" as they do to something that people pay for...

I want to pay a fair price for a quality service... If paying $4 a month for Xbox Live is too much for someone, then I'm fine with them choosing to not be on Live. We're not going to run out of people to play online anytime soon! :)

The gamers who won't pay can have Lan parties... Or buy a PS3 with a free Live service. If it's better, then terrific. If it's not, then I'd much rather pay.

Live is IMPORTANT to me and I want to pay for it. I pay for HBO. I prefer it that way.

[Kefkataran]

I love you, Jack B, but you really do come off as a hardcore Microsoft fanboy. :)

[Jack B]

Yeah, I mean Evil Avatar is free to view and post, yet it hasn't become a giant suckfest. Sure we have bad seeds that tend to ruin certain threads, and we do resort to banning at times, but for the most part we govern ourselves. I think if I played against some random kid who cheated I'd just block him and be on my way. It won't ruin my life if I lose a few matches to some guy snaking in Mario Kart. When this stuff happens I realize I would rather play against the people on my friends list than strangers. Free would be good. Yeah, $20 per gallon of gas would keep the streets from being packed with cars, but I think I could handle occasional traffic jams if gas was free.

I don't think friends would be as apt to cheat, but hey, I've fucked a few of my friends' girlfriends, so who knows. ;)

What the fuck is up with me and analogies lately? I suck. :(

Yes, it is and I voluntarily pay to subscribe, because I'd like to give the EA staff some money to improve and keep a quality service running.

I doubt it would be any worse off if 6,000 members all of a sudden paid $50 a year... If the current staff had $300,000 I'm sure they could find something to use if for to make Evil Avatar better.

Maybe fly in some guests for the EA podcast. Maybe send BaPenguin, Evil Avatar, Kefkataran ect, on trips to interview Bioware about Too Human or SCEA about Warhawk etc. Maybe upgrade the servers or other equipment.

I trust they would find some valuable uses. Unfortunately, they don't get $300,000 a year from subscriptions and this becomes mostly a labor of love. They do a great job, but if you truly enjoy Evil Avatar or Xbox Live, you should be willing (and want) to support it!

I know you're a subscriber, so I'm hoping you can relate to helping the EA staff out. Just realize that I and many others happen to feel the same way about Xbox Live... Sure some people always want something for nothing, but the world typically doesn't work that way. Usually, you get what you pay for...

We don't "have to subscribe"... We "want to subscribe", because we believe it will help a service that we love, maintain or improve their level of service.

[Kelegacy]

I love you, Jack B, but you really do come off as a hardcore Microsoft fanboy. :)
No, he comes across as WHORE, not a fanboy.

I wish I could pay for oxygen. God knows I like it, and I feel that if I like something, I should pay for it.

Who wants my money?

[Kefkataran]

I doubt it would be any worse off if 6,000 members all of a sudden paid $50 a year... If the current staff had $300,000 I'm sure they could find something to use if for to make Evil Avatar better.

Maybe fly in some guests for the EA podcast. Maybe send BaPenguin, Evil Avatar, Kefkataran ect, on trips to interview Bioware about Too Human or SCEA about Warhawk etc. Maybe upgrade the servers or other equipment.

I trust they would find some valuable uses. Unfortunately, they don't get $300,000 a year from subscriptions and this becomes mostly a labor of love. They do a great job, but if you truly enjoy Evil Avatar or Xbox Live, you should be willing (and want) to support it!

I like your analogy (and would love the money!) but it's a little bit flawed. Kelegacy's point is that being free doesn't make Evil Avatar any worse off, even if you CAN pay and that could theoretically help make it better. In the same way, being free isn't definitely going to make Xbox Live any worse, though, as you say, it might make increases in quality a bit more difficult.

[Jack B]

I love you, Jack B, but you really do come off as a hardcore Microsoft fanboy. :)

Ok, fair enough. I'm sure I do at times. :)

I occaisionally defend Sony (check my post history), but not anywhere near as often. It's not by design, it's just I'm backing Microsoft's position in the current Next Gen wars, much like a football prognosticator would back the Steelers to win the Superbowl. Next season it might be someone else. :) I wouldn't back the Steelers every year, but IMO this may be their year... (ie generation).

However, to be fair you can find many posts of mine commending Sony on a lot of things. You can even find me defending both Phil and Ken in different posts in my history. I think I even defended Kaz once, but I'd have to check to be sure. Here's a short list of Sony positives for the record.

1. JPRG's
2. Superior business model for the PS2, re hardware costs, software royalties etc.
3. Superior variety of titles for the PS2.
4. Superior Platformers for the PS2.
5. Trying to push technology with both the Cell and Blu-Ray. (I don't agree it was the right call (too early), but I've been praying for companies to push the envelop since sound cards were still an option).
6. Their potential for Sony Music and Movie distribution via their Live service.
7. Sony's inclusion of a Hard Drive in both SKU's.
8. The PSP was a great idea, that got beaten by a better one, but still I admire the effort.
9. The inclusion of the DVD drive with the PS2.
10. Phil Harrison's most recent lengthy interview.
11. Inclusion of motion sensing as standard equipment. I've stated before all companies 'copy'. It's not a sin. It's good business to realize what works. I wish Microsoft had done the same. It's the only way to get developer support for motion sensing.
12. Sony's adoption of a Live service at No Charge. I don't agree with the business model and I'm skeptical about 'free', but they've realized it's intregral to this generation.
13. A larger hard drive than 20gb.
14. Realization, that 9gb DVD-9's won't hold all the content for some games this generatation. Multiple disks are certainly doable for a game, but I'd rather not have them and realized it will happen this generation at some point.
15. The probably support of a KB and a Mouse.
16. The ability to add a standard hard drive instead of a custom PS3 hard drive only.
17. The addition of a browser. I have a very clear HDTV and could use a browser just fine sitting on my leather chair with feet up. I know it's the PSP interface, but I have hope with a mouse, they could pull it off and I would definitely use it. I have my laptop next to me while gaming on the 360 almost all the time.
18. SCEA et al have created some OUTSTANDING 1st party software titles.
19. The attempt at embracing Linix.

OK, so there is a list. I don't know many fanboys that would even be able to think of that many Sony positives, let alone go on record as having supported them.

I'm forever greatful to Microsoft for pushing the online Live Service. If Sony offers a quality Live service, I could very easily see myself buying a PS3. Microsoft is doing many more things right at this point and Sony has played dirty pool from the 1st FMV of Killzone on the PS3.

IMO, they are deserving of the slings and arrows they are getting right now. That could change and they have done some things right. If that makes me a fanboy, then OK... :)

[Jack B]

No, he comes across as WHORE, not a fanboy.

I wish I could pay for oxygen. God knows I like it, and I feel that if I like something, I should pay for it.

Who wants my money?

That was totally uncalled for... I haven't responded in a negative way to a post of yours in 2 months.

I've even made positive responses to your posts in the past 2 months. This is what I get when I finally decide to have difference of opinion. I'm called a WHORE. :(

[Kefkataran]

I've even made positive responses to your posts in the past 2 months. This is what I get when I finally decide to have difference of opinion. I'm called a WHORE.

I think you're misunderstanding. Kelegacy LOVES whores. Why, just look at his sister. :)

[Orosco]

Well, heres a attempt to put this thread back on subject...

I've played alot of Street Fighter 2, most of it on the SNES, and had gotten really good using the 4-way directional pad, my controller was/is the asciiPAD. I played as Ken most of the time, Bison as well. I could get off Dragon Punches like 90% of the time, the fireball and hurricane kick was no problem at all.

With this Xbox360 controller, I can't pull of many of the moves with any regularity, even the simpler ones like the fireball. After a while, I was thinking I had just gotten "rusty" or something, so I busted out the original SF2 for the SNES, to see if I was that bad. After about 10 minutes, it was no problem pulling off the moves with the asciiPAD. So I go back the the Xbox360 and played it for about 90 minutes, just Ken, against the computer and still having problems with the moves.

I'm really bummed about this, this was "THE" XBLA game for me, period. The idea of online SF2 is a dream come true, I'm one of those few people that had this as a selling point for the 360.

Played some online matches, mostly ranked, no chat ones. Had no lag at all, even with people with yellow pings. Seemed nice and smooth, but maybe I had gotten lucky with the ones I connected with. Stretching the screen to make it full-screen didn't hurt the appearance at all, looked like it should I thought.

So I guess my question is, are you guys getting used to the 360 controller after a while, or is it still hit-n-miss on the special moves?

[EternalGamer]

Live is IMPORTANT to me and I want to pay for it. I pay for HBO. I prefer it that way.

Um... what? There are lot of things like or appreciate, but I don't WANT to pay for any of them. You realize you just said you WANT to pay for HBO? I love HBO, it's the only channel outside of PBS (and the Daily Show on Comedy Central) that I watch. But if there was a way to get it for free, you better believe I'd rather it be free. The only reason I'd would pay for them (if not obligated) would be to keep the quality up, but you can't automatically assume that you have to have consumers pay in order for that to happen. Your argument becomes circular--you want to pay because you want the quality kept up and you believe the quality is kept up because you pay.

[Jack B]

Um... what? There are lot of things like or appreciate, but I don't WANT to pay for any of them. You realize you just said you WANT to pay for HBO? I love HBO, it's the only channel outside of PBS (and the Daily Show on Comedy Central) that I watch. But if there was a way to get it for free, you better believe I'd rather it be free. The only reason I'd would pay for them (if not obligated) would be to keep the quality up, but you can't automatically assume that you have to have consumers pay in order for that to happen. Your argument becomes circular--you want to pay because you want the quality kept up and you believe the quality is kept up because you pay.

That's fine for you. I'm OK with that philosophy. It's your call. I drop money in the Salvation Army can outside Safeway. It's not free, but I want to do it. I'm not looking for free. That's just me. I tip, I pay my way, I pay for good service.

I could get one of those illegal decoders and not pay HBO at all. I don't want to do that. Too many people do that and we don't have HBO. I want to reward the HBO employees for a job well done...

I also buy my songs from iTunes. I could use Kazaa. I don't.

I was always the one in college that barely haggled with the vendors in Tijauna, Mexico on our road trips. People would say, "What you paid $20 for that basket!!! I got the guy down to $5!". I'd say, "Well you know what, that basket was worth $20 to me. I can afford it. I know that guy likely didn't make the basket. Some small child or old woman likely did. If I give him $5 maybe the woman gets 25 cents. If I give him $20 maybe she gets a couple of bucks....". Yeah, maybe not. Maybe he keeps all $20 anyway. I can't change the world by myself, but I can sleep nights.

Maybe if I didn't buy a basket at all, the industry would go away. Maybe I'm actually contributing, even though I pay $20 instead of $5. I don't have all the answers, I'm just doing what I think is right.

Paying $4 a month for Live is what I want to do. I don't want it to be free. Yeah, it would be $4 more a month in my pocket, but Live doesn't run itself and if no one paid, I believe the service would suffer. I don't want that. It's easily worth $4 a month and I'm glad to contribute to the Live team.

No money for Live... likely they cut back on the team, someone gets laid off... yada yada yada. I want to pay.

You can want not to pay. I'm OK with that. I'll never change the world. I'm just doing my small part to reward the Live team for a job well done.

[Kefkataran]

I was always the one in college that barely haggled with the vendors in Tijauna, Mexico on our road trips. People would say, "What you paid $20 for that basket!!! I got the guy down to $5!". I'd say, "Well you know what, that basket was worth $20 to me. I can afford it. I know that guy likely didn't make the basket. Some small child or old woman likely did. If I give him $5 maybe the woman gets 25 cents. If I give him $20 maybe she gets a couple of bucks....". Yeah, maybe not. Maybe he keeps all $20 anyway. I can't change the world by myself, but I can sleep nights.

How does haggling in a marketplace built around that concept compare to pirating music? On that same note, comparing Dan's idea (that he would take Xbox Live or HBO for free IF THEY OFFERED IT FOR FREE) to illegaly piracy is just as misguided. You're really forcing your point in all the wrong ways.

[sir feces face]

So I log onto Live and play a match of SF2 and I get the crapped kicked out of me. I look for another match and it still can't find any games even after four tries. I hit the B button to go back and the thing freezes. I'm used to this system going into a coma so I just reset. I log back on and get killed in another game. Then it again can't find any matches so I go back to try to play single player and the stupid thing freezes up again. I then proceeded to pee all over my 360 hoping that my urine will destroy any remains of this game on my hard drive. I think I will stick to the old time arcade with the cig burns all over the machine.

[DeadScreenSky]

So I guess my question is, are you guys getting used to the 360 controller after a while, or is it still hit-n-miss on the special moves?

It's not really a matter of getting used to the d-pad on the X360. It's basically broken by design (though I hear sometimes you get lucky and buy a controller that works).

[Kelegacy]

That was totally uncalled for... I haven't responded in a negative way to a post of yours in 2 months.

I've even made positive responses to your posts in the past 2 months. This is what I get when I finally decide to have difference of opinion. I'm called a WHORE. :(
I was being a smart-ass. Don't take it so personal.

What's up with people taking me so seriously these days?

[Savok]

Lefties usually don't have a sense of humor these days.

[Kelegacy]

Lefties usually don't have a sense of humor these days.
But I'm a "lefty" and my mirth is as vibrant as ever.

[mikeohara]

Team Xbox has the full achievement list up. Listed below.



Achievements for SF2: HF -

* 12 World Warriors – Fight with all 12 characters in single-player arcade mode. (5 GS points)
* Perfection – Complete a perfect match at default difficulty or higher in single-player arcade mode (5 GS points)
* Bonus Bonanza – Complete a perfect bonus round in single-player arcade mode (10 GS points)
* World Champion – Compete single-player arcade mode (15 GS points)
* 7 Stars – Complete single-player arcade mode at the highest difficulty level (20 GS points)
* Hyper World Champion – Complete single-player arcade mode without losing a match (25 GS points)
* Perfect World Champion– Complete single-player arcade mode without losing a round (30 GS points)
* I Got Next – Play a match in the online quarter mode (5 GS points)
* 10 tokens – Play ten ranked online matches (10 GS points)
* 50 Tokens – play fifty ranked online matches (20 GS points)
* 10 Ranked Online Victories – Achieve ten wins during ranked online play (20 GS points)
* 30 Ranked Online Victories – Achieve thirty wins during ranked online play (35 GS points)

[Orosco]

It's not really a matter of getting used to the d-pad on the X360. It's basically broken by design (though I hear sometimes you get lucky and buy a controller that works).

I have to agree, I spent more time last night, and I swear I was doing the same exact motions, and getting different results. I'm really bummed about this.

[Jack B]

How does haggling in a marketplace built around that concept compare to pirating music? On that same note, comparing Dan's idea (that he would take Xbox Live or HBO for free IF THEY OFFERED IT FOR FREE) to illegaly piracy is just as misguided. You're really forcing your point in all the wrong ways.

I competely disagree.

I pay for value period. Some people want the best deal possible even if it isn't a win win. Free will always be better to some people because they have one winner in mind. Them.

I negotiate win win business deals every day. That's my real life job. I shouldn't have to explain that post as the linkage is very clear if you think about it, but I'll take the time to make it even more clear.

Ask the Microsoft Live team if all the revenue coming in for the Live service makes their jobs more or less secure. It would be less secure without the Live revenue. I prefer they are given the headcount and resources needed to create a quality product. My $4 a month gives them more money to build and maintain the service I love.

My Tijuana is linked in the following way. The child and the old woman are the Xbox Live team... I give more money to the vendor and he may know them personally (could be his daughter or grandmother) or he may decide to give his employees more of the profits. It's about not looking for the personal win, but looking at the bigger holistic picture.

In the iTunes/Kazaa example the music artists are the Xbox Live team. I pay for iTunes music and the artists get some of the profits.

In the Salvation Army example, the needy people that get a portion of my money are the Xbox Live team.

The HBO for free example would be great if the quality didn't evaporate. It would. Something for nothing is what my kids expect. As you get older you realize life rarely works that way. You get what you pay for. If it's not worth it, don't buy it, but HBO is a quality network that delivers. Take away their revenue and it's not HBO anymore. It's a win for Dan in the short term. Definitely not a win for me in the long term.

That is how they are linked. Some will see the linkage, some won't.

[Jack B]

I was being a smart-ass. Don't take it so personal.

What's up with people taking me so seriously these days?

Kelegacy, you are a smart-ass and a dick to many people not just me, so at least you are an equal opportunity dick. I especially like your "anyone who likes Ninety Nine Nights is an idiot" type posts.

Don't take that personally.

[Kelegacy]

Kelegacy, you are a smart-ass and a dick to many people not just me, so at least you are an equal opportunity dick. I especially like your "anyone who likes Ninety Nine Nights is an idiot" type posts.

Don't take that personally.
Actually, the correct insult was something like, "fucking idiot".

And anyone who thinks paying is better than free is a fucking idiot.

[DeadScreenSky]

I have to agree, I spent more time last night, and I swear I was doing the same exact motions, and getting different results. I'm really bummed about this.
Yeah, as a heavy DOA4 player since its release I can vouch that experience doesn't really make it much better. At best you'll learn to compensate with your playstyle, get a joystick, or mod the controller's D-pad (which is really easy - you just need some sandpaper and screwdrivers).

[Kefkataran]

Lefties usually don't have a sense of humor these days.

Oooh, I see what you did there! See, I almost got angry! Almost!

Some day you may start to think in terms of win win and not always worry about "free is better".

1.) Quit talking down to me and/or everyone. It makes you sound like more of an asshole than I think you think you are being.

2.) I realize that the Xbox Live team is supposed to be "the child and the old woman" and "the music artists". That doesn't make the examples any more valid, especially the iTunes/Kazaa example. You're comparing not Dan's stated opinion that he would love a free version of Xbox Live if they offered it for free legally with people illegally downloading music off of Kazaa. Presumably IF Microsoft offered a free version of Xbox Live, it would still have ad revenue and other things to help it make money.

3.) Thanks for trying to personally attack me and call me selfish at the end. Appreciate it. But all I was doing here was defending Dan's post. In fact I don't think I ever said I'd like a free Xbox Live in this thread that I recall.

[Jack B]

Actually, the correct insult was something like, "fucking idiot".

And anyone who thinks paying is better than free is a fucking idiot.

That's exactly what I would expect a selfish dick to say.

I'll quote you, "Don't take that personally".

Note: I like this insulting you and then putting the "don't take it personally" at the end. It's fun and refreshing. Thanks for the idea.

[Jack B]

Oooh, I see what you did there! See, I almost got angry! Almost!



1.) Quit talking down to me and/or everyone. It makes you sound like more of an asshole than I think you think you are being.

2.) I realize that the Xbox Live team is supposed to be "the child and the old woman" and "the music artists". That doesn't make the examples any more valid, especially the iTunes/Kazaa example. You're comparing not Dan's stated opinion that he would love a free version of Xbox Live if they offered it for free legally with people illegally downloading music off of Kazaa. Presumably IF Microsoft offered a free version of Xbox Live, it would still have ad revenue and other things to help it make money.

3.) Thanks for trying to personally attack me and call me selfish at the end. Appreciate it. But all I was doing here was defending Dan's post. In fact I don't think I ever said I'd like a free Xbox Live in this thread that I recall.

1. You said, How does haggling in a marketplace built around that concept compare to pirating music? On that same note, comparing Dan's idea (that he would take Xbox Live or HBO for free IF THEY OFFERED IT FOR FREE) to illegaly piracy is just as misguided. You're really forcing your point in all the wrong ways. Why is that OK, and then when I explain the linkage to my points you disimissed, I'm talking down to you? You challenged three of my points and gave credit to none. You also said I was being "misguided" and "forcing" my point in "all" the wrong ways. That wouldn't exactly be considered a fair or two thumbs up endorsement of my post.

I came back and defended my position. I don't think I talked down to you, but gave solid points. If you had accepted one of my four points, then the response would have had a different tone. Maybe explaining two of my four analogies, woudn't have sounded like I was talking down to you, but you said none of what I said made any sense, so what am I supposed to do with that?

2. If I believed Microsoft wouldn't cut their Live staff or degrade the quality of the bug fixes, enhancements etc, then I'd be fine with Live being free. I've just spent 20 years (that's a lot of meetings) in corporate America and I've never seen a non-revenue generating business unit given as many resources as a revenue generating business unit.

Yes, I get tired of the "that's a ripoff, it should be free comments". I know what the business side looks like.

3. I apologize for my wording at the end. I did believe you were only taking the devil's advocate position and didn't associate you with a passionate belief about the "it's all about win for me only" or "everything should be free" type attitudes.

I was speaking generically about the people that think that way and didn't mean to offend you or lump you into that camp. If I'd wanted to say that about you, I'd say it right now, but I don't. It was a misinterpretation of what I meant, likely caused by my wording. Sorry for that.

I will say for the record, I was disappointed that you took the devil's advocate position and dismissed all my points. If you had have taken one of the four and said, "yeah, I can see what you're saying re point number two, but...". You didn't, so yes I felt that was unfair.

[Kefkataran]

then when I explain the linkage to my points you disimissed, I'm talking down to you?

I didn't dismiss you, and your explanation took the assumption that I didn't have a clue what you meant, which (I hope obviously) I did. I also didn't say that what you said doesn't make sense -- I said it was "forcing your point in all the wrong ways".

Yes, I get tired of the "that's a ripoff, it should be free comments". I know what the business side looks like.

I get tired of that statement as well. I agree that people expect too much for free.


I will say for the record, I was disappointed that you took the devil's advocate position and dismissed all my points. If you had have taken one of the four and said, "yeah, I can see what you're saying re point number two, but...". You didn't, so yes I felt that was unfair.

Again, I didn't dismiss all your points. I just think comparing the idea that people would accept and even embrace a free Xbox Live with illegally pirating music is a cheap tactic that significantly weakens your argument as a whole.

[Chameleo]

jesus christ!

free is better! i have more money in my pocket at the end of the day which allows me to do more!

if something which i was paying for suddenly became free - i could give more to the salvation army! or i could buy one more game, or the more expensive meat!

i dunno!

free is always better!!! (unless its free because its a crappier version or has some ulterior motive.)

jack b. you sound to me like a smug self-loving guy. i'm not smug - though i do love myself - and i can honestly say that i would rather have the money to myself.

i guess i'm selfish or not as good a person as you or whatever.

so; people just do things that make them feel bigger. it makes you feel bigger to throw your money around.

not a very uncommon trait.

[Kelegacy]

That's exactly what I would expect a selfish dick to say.

I'll quote you, "Don't take that personally".

Note: I like this insulting you and then putting the "don't take it personally" at the end. It's fun and refreshing. Thanks for the idea.
Call it selfish if you want, but I live a very NON-selfish lifestyle. But you could call it, "looking out for myself and not some stupid corporation." What the hell do I own to these guys? Not too damn much. I support them by buying their videogames. If I can buy a game via a deal I saw on cheapassgamer.com for 20 bucks rather than 60, I'll do it. Why pay the extra 40 if I don't have to?

Some things shouldn't be free (so, games being free like legal abandonware are great, piracy isn't) but for things that CAN be free as easy as not, why prefer to pay?

You must REALLY love the XBL Marketplace.

[Jack B]

I didn't dismiss you, and your explanation took the assumption that I didn't have a clue what you meant, which (I hope obviously) I did. I also didn't say that what you said doesn't make sense -- I said it was "forcing your point in all the wrong ways".

I've quoted your complete post here.

How does haggling in a marketplace built around that concept compare to pirating music? On that same note, comparing Dan's idea (that he would take Xbox Live or HBO for free IF THEY OFFERED IT FOR FREE) to illegaly piracy is just as misguided. You're really forcing your point in all the wrong ways.

You absolutely did dismiss my points. You used the words "misguided" and "forcing". I didn't see one bit of, "ok, I get your point on XYZ...". None of that. I don't think that was a balanced response. That is dismissing some of my points and challenging the others.

If my reply took the "you didn't have a clue what I meant" tone, you gave me little choice on that one, as you didn't offer one bit of "I understand what you meant".

Again, I didn't dismiss all your points. I just think comparing the idea that people would accept and even embrace a free Xbox Live with illegally pirating music is a cheap tactic that significantly weakens your argument as a whole.

We covered the dismissed part above. As for your other point about the free Live with pirating music... I will agree that it's only remotely related in terms of morality. Yes, very very different. In the sense of "I want free without ramifications" I believe it is connected.

My point was not to make a moral connection, but one of "think about who will be effected (ie artists and Live employees) by your free actions". I can see where you could make a moral connection from my post. That wasn't my intention. Point taken.

[Kefkataran]

You absolutely did dismiss my points. You used the words "misguided" and "forcing". I didn't see one bit of, "ok, I get your point on XYZ...". None of that. I don't think that was a balanced response. That is dismissing some of my points and challenging the others.

I dismissed the points I mentioned and didn't say a thing about the others. I'm sorry I didn't say "Your other points are alright, though." I guess that makes me "unbalanced". Either that or I'm just writing a quick forum post.

In the sense of "I want free without ramifications" I believe it is connected.

How? Again, if Microsoft ever made XBL free, they WOULD have another way to make money, whether through ads or some other system, or ads plus some other system. Artists do not make any money through illegally downloaded music. It's completely different, even on non-moral terms.

[Jack B]

I dismissed the points I mentioned and didn't say a thing about the others. I'm sorry I didn't say "Your other points are alright, though." I guess that makes me "unbalanced". Either that or I'm just writing a quick forum post.

Thanks for your comment here. It doesn't make you or all your posts unbalanced just that particular one. I took a lot of time to express my points and your post was really short. I always respond better to the "I get point Y, but don't agree with X" dialogue. Specifically in a longer post with multiple points/analogies. Thanks for acknowledging.

My reply was a bit condescending in response. Sorry for that.

How? Again, if Microsoft ever made XBL free, they WOULD have another way to make money, whether through ads or some other system, or ads plus some other system. Artists do not make any money through illegally downloaded music. It's completely different, even on non-moral terms.

Let me try to explain this way.

Yes, Microsoft has other ways to make money on the 360 division, but here's how the annual corporate budget/planning process works (my apologies if you already know all this) It's an annual process where money is budgeted/planned for each division/project/cost center etc. During those annual budgeting/planning meetings, If someone can say, "hey, our project/business unit delivered 15% revenue growth year over year" they can and often will get additional funding/headcount ect, during that budget/planning process for the following year. If they have zero direct revenue they are at risk of being cut all together or downsized etc.

Revenue in corporations is always king. Budget and planning cycles can take 6 months or longer every year. It's a very contentious process with the CFO trying to cut costs every year and each department begging for more funding. Lot's of meetings, Powerpoint presentations, political wrangling and even sometimes heated discussions etc. It's a real struggle that typically only people who have been through it can appreciate.

If the Live service becomes a non-revenue generating service/project at Microsoft they will drop further down the pecking order on funding next year. If people vote with their pocketbooks for Live it will rise in the pecking order. I love live and want those budget and planning meetings to go really well in future years.

I do "want" to pay for Live. I know it sounds strange or as Kelegacy said, "you're a fucking idiot", but there is much more to it below the surface. If you look at the bigger picture, you may decide you'd like to vote with your pocketbook as well.

If I believed a non-revenue generating Live would get as much funding, then sure I'd be fine with that, but I've been in and around 20 years of budget and planning cycles. I know non-revenue generating is a very risky way to go.

I don't want headcount cuts. I want headcount increases on the Live team. I want everyone to know at Microsoft how important Live is to me. I want them to give the Live team all the resources they need to fix bugs, improve network performance, stability, create new enhancements etc.

Yep, I "want" to pay and I don't believe I'm an "idiot" for doing so. Hopefully this now makes more sense. Hopefully this may cause just one person to say, "you know, I love Live and want it to get better, so maybe I'll pay $4 a month". Sony can treat it as a "free" service, but I'd prefer to help fund a higher quality service. I "want" to pay.

Thank you Major Nelson and all of the Xbox Live team. Keep up the good work!

[Kelegacy]

Jack, you are one crazy SOB.

I was off buying tube socks @ Sears today and they were selling them for buy one pack, get one free. When I was paying the cashier I said, "You know what? I like this store so much I'm gonna just pay for both packs of socks. Why let you give me something for free when I can just give you this money I worked for instead?"

Thanks for helping me see it your way!

[Jack B]

Jack, you are one crazy SOB.

I was off buying tube socks @ Sears today and they were selling them for buy one pack, get one free. When I was paying the cashier I said, "You know what? I like this store so much I'm gonna just pay for both packs of socks. Why let you give me something for free when I can just give you this money I worked for instead?"

Thanks for helping me see it your way!

I can't help you grasp complex subjects. It's just not going to happen. Maybe someday, but you're not ready yet.

This is why I won't be seeing you in a budget/planning session at a major corporation anytime soon. I'm much more likely to see you rumaging the bargain bin for socks at Sears. Don't bother sending your resume.

I'll quote you, "don't take that personally".

[Jack B]

jesus christ!

free is better! i have more money in my pocket at the end of the day which allows me to do more!

if something which i was paying for suddenly became free - i could give more to the salvation army! or i could buy one more game, or the more expensive meat!

i dunno!

free is always better!!! (unless its free because its a crappier version or has some ulterior motive.)

jack b. you sound to me like a smug self-loving guy. i'm not smug - though i do love myself - and i can honestly say that i would rather have the money to myself.

i guess i'm selfish or not as good a person as you or whatever.

so; people just do things that make them feel bigger. it makes you feel bigger to throw your money around.

not a very uncommon trait.

Nice unsolicited insult. And yes, you've figured out more money in your wallet is good for you. Nice work. Now try to spend some time getting your MBA and then we can have another talk about business value and the budget/planning process for major corporations. Do I know for a fact you don't have your MBA? No, but somehow arguing with someone who calls himself DK underscore dash gives me a hunch you understand the inside of your wallet more than you do a corporate CFO's office.

I work for a living and pay for value. I don't mind at all. Free is always better in the short term for individuals. In the longterm that's case by case. When your favorite game company goes out of business, that may not be good for you. It's case by case. I'm talking big picture. You're looking in your wallet.

A free pair of socks is a lot different to me than not paying or something I'm passionate about and don't want to go away.

If you're a waiter and serve me, let me know so I can be sure to "not pay" you a tip. I'm sure you'll understand. In fact, why don't you make it a habit to tell all your future waiters and waitresses you won't be paying them a tip, because free is always better. Do so, and I'd check for mysterious substances in your food. Also, don't expect the best service, but then again "free is always better", so you should be happy.

If you don't understand that concept, fine, but I don't need to be insulted for paying for value by choice.

[Kelegacy]

This is why I won't be seeing you in a budget/planning session at a major corporation anytime soon. I'm much more likely to see you rumaging the bargain bin for socks at Sears. Don't bother sending your resume.

Because I think the free model, when it's prudent, is good, my business ethic is fractured? If anything, a person who bleeds money for no good reason is the one with the warped view. You want to pay Microsoft money to use Live. I want them to make it free. And I'm the crazy lout?

I wish Nintendo would charge people five dollars for each DS Friend Code. I love Nintendo and I think that by me paying them, they could put that money to good use. After all, I'm a working stiff and they're a corporation, they need all of my money they can get. I might even get on their Christmas Card list for my good deeds. Who cares if they want to make online gaming free...I want to PAY goddamnit!

[Kefkataran]

My reply was a bit condescending in response. Sorry for that.

No worries.

If the Live service becomes a non-revenue generating service/project at Microsoft they will drop further down the pecking order on funding next year. If people vote with their pocketbooks for Live it will rise in the pecking order. I love live and want those budget and planning meetings to go really well in future years.


And that's fine and makes sense, but it still, in my opinion, does not call for a comparison to illegal music downloading online. As I've said (and continue to say), even if Microsoft DID make Live free to consumers, they WOULD make revenue on it somehow, probably through ads. Hell, they might even make more on advertising than they would with the small amount they charge right now.

If you look at the bigger picture, you may decide you'd like to vote with your pocketbook as well.

I already told you, I haven't said once this whole thread that I'd like Live to be free. If you want to pay for Live and like it, you can. I'm not arguing that at all.


I don't want headcount cuts. I want headcount increases on the Live team. I want everyone to know at Microsoft how important Live is to me. I want them to give the Live team all the resources they need to fix bugs, improve network performance, stability, create new enhancements etc.


Considering the huge amount Microsoft spends on Live service (even on the Silver members who aren't paying a thing) in comparison to what they make, I think you should probably be sending them extra money as well.

[Jack B]

No worries.

Thanks.


And that's fine and makes sense, but it still, in my opinion, does not call for a comparison to illegal music downloading online. As I've said (and continue to say), even if Microsoft DID make Live free to consumers, they WOULD make revenue on it somehow, probably through ads. Hell, they might even make more on advertising than they would with the small amount they charge right now.

I'd agree it's not the best or easiest of my comparisions to connect, but the money that people like me give iTunes may keep one or two bands going enough, so they don't give up on their dream and continue to make music. Money pays for things for the Live team and bands.


I already told you, I haven't said once this whole thread that I'd like Live to be free. If you want to pay for Live and like it, you can. I'm not arguing that at all.

OK, thanks.

[/quote]Considering the huge amount Microsoft spends on Live service (even on the Silver members who aren't paying a thing) in comparison to what they make, I think you should probably be sending them extra money as well.[/QUOTE]

I understand where you're coming from. It's often said the best form of government is a benevolent dictator. It's just that 99 out of 100 aren't benevolent. :)

Same thing with non-revenue generating offerings. If people vote with their wallets, corporations take notice. It's better than surveys or anything else. Money talks in corporations. It's possible Microsoft would devote the exact same funding, headcount, servers etc, to supporting Live if it were just a free service to add value to the overall 360 value proposition.

I've just seen it happen over and over, that if 100% of the 360 owners were to pay for Live Gold, they'd probably throw a ton more servers, headcount, fixes, features etc, at the Live service.

I love Live, but if I had a nickle for everytime I disconnected from battle or suffered lag etc, I'd be a rich man. It's my belief Live could be better and a people spending money for Live will help with funding. If it goes free, it will get less funding. I don't want that.

You could be right as there is no way to know for sure, but server infrastructure, headcount etc, aren't cheap. All the people on these forums saying, "Live should be free" or the "PS3 free service is better" give ammo to the executives at Microsoft or Sony who would say..., "see people aren't willing to pay for Live.... It's not that important to them. Let's spend our money on other areas of the gaming division."

Live is the most important part of the 360. I want more servers, better connections, more content, more features, etc. I want to vote with my wallet. That's my voice.

[Kelegacy]

In all fairness, I always pay for value. I do not have cheap tastes in beer, food, or entertainment. However, if someone like MS offered Live to me for free, I'd take it. That's what I'm getting at, and have been trying to. I'm at work so I am more prone to be argumentative. It's fun, and kills time. Hence my 99 Nights rant.

However, did you ever hear the story about the cheapskate? He died a very rich man.

[Jack B]

Because I think the free model, when it's prudent, is good, my business ethic is fractured?

Now there is something I can agree with... You're business ethic isn't fractured when you include "when it's prudent". Go back and read your earlier posts. When and prudent were not included. Free is always better was.

If anything, a person who bleeds money for no good reason is the one with the warped view. You want to pay Microsoft money to use Live. I want them to make it free. And I'm the crazy lout?

Every example I've used where I pay (not bleed) money, I've clearly stated there is value and explained why. Go back and read the reasons.

I wish Nintendo would charge people five dollars for each DS Friend Code. I love Nintendo and I think that by me paying them, they could put that money to good use. After all, I'm a working stiff and they're a corporation, they need all of my money they can get. I might even get on their Christmas Card list for my good deeds. Who cares if they want to make online gaming free...I want to PAY goddamnit!

Using a crazy example of paying $5 for a single DS code is not "prudent". All the talk about working man and Christmas cards are fluff to your point.

For the record I do not support paying $5 for a single DS code. That would not be consistent with any of my previous points. I think you made a poor logical comparison of paying for value with the DS code example.

Paying $4 a month for Live does not compare to paying $5 for a "single" DS code.

[Jack B]

In all fairness, I always pay for value. I do not have cheap tastes in beer, food, or entertainment. However, if someone like MS offered Live to me for free, I'd take it. That's what I'm getting at, and have been trying to. I'm at work so I am more prone to be argumentative. It's fun, and kills time. Hence my 99 Nights rant.

However, did you ever hear the story about the cheapskate? He died a very rich man.

Thanks for your paying for value comment. I do like hearing that you will pay for value. We may be close to an understanding. It's just the connection between "not paying" and "will that effect the value of the Live service". I connect not paying with a reduction in the quality. I fear that, because Live in particular is the killer app for my gaming tastes.

Re your argumentative comment. That took a lot to write that. Thanks. Many people look much more argumenative in writing than in person. In person it may come across very differently. Same for me.

Re the cheapskate comment. There is nothing wrong with being thrifty, but you get what you pay for. Thrifty does not always get you the car you'd like to drive or the home you'd like to live in.

Money is not everything to everyone. It's sometimes thought of as the Amercan way, but to me it's a means to an end. Hoarding money, not tipping, having aligator arms at happy hour etc, all have their downsides. Note: I'm not saying you do any of those things, just commenting on cheapskates in general.

Dying a rich man is not my personal goal.

[DeathtollWRX]

Stop your crying about the controls. Get used to it and own fools. yeah there are cheap players on line but it's about winning. Single player has always sucked, it's about smashing the enemy.. another human being!!

so far my rank is 90
DeathtollWRX