Ritual's Mike Russell on Piracy [Archive]

The Continental

07-26-2006, 05:30 PM

Michael Russell of Ritual Entertainment, creators of the recent SiN Episodes: Emergence (http://storefront.steampowered.com/v2/index.php?area=game&AppId=1300&), sat down for a chat with Shacknews (http://www.shacknews.com/extras/2006/072606_ritual_piracy_1.x) after a recent post on his blog (http://www.romsteady.net/blog/2006/07/games-hidden-cost-of-piracy.html) detailed the extent of piracy in regards to the first SiN episode.

Shack: When you are relatively sure you've encountered a pirate, what do you do? How do you deal with the person?

Mike Russell: Actually, I contact their ISP [laughs]. I know it sounds silly, but ISPs have been a lot more responsive towards pirates than law enforcement has been. Most law enforcement sees piracy as petty theft. It's under a hundred bucks, it's piddly crap. But ISPs, they're really responsive towards pirates, because most pirates are the people who are munching all the bandwidth. So if they have, essentially, a legitimate excuse to boot a pirate off, they'll take it.

Thanks to Voodoo Extreme (http://ve3d.ign.com/) for the heads up.

ProfPuppet

07-26-2006, 05:55 PM

"Mike Russell: Well, from the big publisher standpoint, it affects them because only 15% of all titles break even. That's not "make money," that's just "break even." So that's 85% of all titles that lose money. That 15% pays for the rest. If you're, say, working for a publisher and you're working on one of these titles that's losing money, you're not going to be getting as much for it, you're not going to be getting as much funding, because you haven't been succeeding."

Jeez, only 15%?!? Anyone know if that's at all accurate?

GrinR

07-26-2006, 06:09 PM

I'm sure it's accurate. look at the release lists and then consider how many of those titles you've even HEARD of.

Bumbuliuz

07-26-2006, 06:10 PM

Amazing the nerve of people that would pirate a game, and then turn around and ask for tech support. I bought Sin through Steam and couldnt be happier.

Eric_T_Cheng

07-26-2006, 06:25 PM

Good lord. Sin Episode 1 and Half-Life Episod 1 were $20Cdn each. How can people be so freakin' cheap and pirate games when they're that cheap? You want more episodes? Buy the fuckin' game.

Hemalin

07-26-2006, 06:31 PM

I'm sure it's accurate. look at the release lists and then consider how many of those titles you've even HEARD of.
That seems to have more to do with making crappy games than it has to do with piracy.

StoneGut

07-26-2006, 06:43 PM

Well I bought it.
I used to get a scattered pirated game (As I'm sure we all have at one point in our lives) but now if I can't afford it I'm going to wait and get it when I can. No more of this downloading crap... If I can't wait to buy the game legally then there's something defentially wrong with my brain. Or colon.

ttoastt

07-26-2006, 06:46 PM

That seems to have more to do with making crappy games than it has to do with piracy.
While that's definately true, in the end I'm sure it's quite annoying for developers to see their games pirated, especially when their game already isn't selling as well as they'd hope. That would be a second kick in the nuts

EvilBob46

07-26-2006, 06:47 PM

The Continental

07-26-2006, 07:06 PM

What has happened to the PC games industry makes me want to sit down and weep. The days when I used to be a PC gamer almost exclusively (and when there was a steady flow of fantastic PC games) seem like ages ago now. I'm not saying piracy is to blame exclusively, but the many dev studies that used to create games exclusively for the PC and have now shifted to creating games almost exclusively for consoles (or disappeared entirely) should be an indication that something is seriously wrong.

I'd go so far as to say that your experience applies to the entire game industry, rather than just the PC industry, and not so much due to piracy, but the prohibitive cost of creating a AAA title in todays market. The PC will always be there, primarily because of the modding community, which is the reason myself and so many others are ok with quality releases every so often on the PC rather than the slew of crap that floods consoles (unending sequels, movie licenses, etc.).

With most PC titles, for a one time fee I get access to countless free mods that I'll still be playing months after I finish the actual game I played for. When I tired of one mod, I just go find another. That to me is the reason I still buy PC games (albeit less than 5 or so a year), but rent console games exclusively.

thecrazyd

07-26-2006, 07:09 PM

With most PC titles, for a one time fee I get access to countless free mods that I'll still be playing months after I finish the actual game I played for.
More like, "With the occaisional PC game..." Honestly, very, very few PC games get worthwhile mods.

Xenkylm

07-26-2006, 07:11 PM

I agree. There's really very little reason to steal a game anymore, especially if you have any sort of income (or have a birthday coming up). I used to rationalize stealing MP3s back in the day because I "didn't want to spend $20 on a cd just for one track." Ever since the iTunes model came into play, I've been completely legit with my music collection (afaik, I don't have ANY illegal mp3s anymore). Games are the same way, now (play the demo if you don't know if you'll like it!), and so is other software. Why would you steal photoshop, 3d studio max, or office, when there are free open-source options that do exactly the same thing (Gimp, Blender, and openOffice)? At that point, it's just spite and 'OMG i hate micro$oft' at play.

hotdrop

07-26-2006, 07:31 PM

well its sort of circular logic. Games are pirated because they arent worth the price publishers put on them those 85% a lot of em are priced at full price even though they should be budget titles. Those prices are so high because of piracy though, (at least that s the excuse, its not really like they would be cheaper if there wasnt piracy). I mean in all honesty if someone is pirating your game odds are they wouldent have bought because most likely the price point isnt right (and it may never be because crap games lose value faster then they drop in price). Im not trying to excuse piracy, but I did used to be a pirate once myself and now ive become a ligit customer of the industry since ive grown up and aquired some $$.

Although music is an entirely differnt story, I refuse to buy cd's care they have 1 or 2 good tracks and downloaded music is just shit both in quality and drm BS.

drakkarim

07-26-2006, 07:47 PM

Heretic Machine

07-26-2006, 07:48 PM

I agree. There's really very little reason to steal a game anymore, especially if you have any sort of income (or have a birthday coming up).

I disagree, there is even more reason to pirate games today than there was in the past. I don't personally pirate games myself (I define piracy as 'stealing' a game that I could otherwise buy by walking into a game store, or any game sold via digital distribution) but I am tempted. Devs are charging more money for less content, and the modding community as a whole seems to be dieing. Thus, we get six hour games for $50 (or $60), and no way to extend it's meager value with mods.

But I mean, really, who pirates a game when they can afford to go out and buy it? Are there really that many people who do this? I'd say the more likely situation is that most pirates are teenagers, since they can no longer get jobs in most areas (because employment is so bad that middle aged women take all the jobs as fry cooks at McDonald's, cashiers at Wal-mart... etc), and thus you aren't actually loseing any sales to begin with.

As for Russell's strategy of dealing with pirates... fuck him. Fuck him for supporting the greedy ISPs who have decided to sell a product they have no intention of delivering on. My ISP has gotten so stingy with their bandwidth that they have blocked off the port used for City of Heroes' patcher, and now I can never play it again. How good would it be for your business, Mike, if they blocked off the ports used by Steam?

Meh, I'm just going to stop buying games one of these days.

Mozgus

07-26-2006, 07:52 PM

i wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that 85% of the games sold are complete piles of shit? could it be that consumers are trying to tell you something about what you make? nah, couldn't be...
Bingo. I use piracy as my own means of demoing. Most games dont have free demos. If it's great, I buy it.

Anyways, the solution to making money is to stop focusing on fancy graphics. If a character model takes a team of six people to design across a 4 month span, you're doing something wrong. We need more 2D games anyway. Come up with something original, and people might buy your shit. A nice beautiful epic 1 million dollar game is good to have about once or twice a year, but we don't need every title trying to become that.

aversion2k

07-26-2006, 08:04 PM

Why would you steal photoshop, 3d studio max, or office, when there are free open-source options that do exactly the same thing (Gimp, Blender, and openOffice)? At that point, it's just spite and 'OMG i hate micro$oft' at play.

Well, I understand why some people would pirate photoshop, max etc.
A student trying to get into an industry (games, movies, etc) isnt going to have thousands of dollers sitting around to invest in those programs.
And having photoshop on your cv looks better then gimp.
I realise you can still learn the same skills, but an employer is going to hire the guy who already knows photoshop over the guy who only knows gimp (unless he's incredibly awesome).

I realise its still illegal, but if its just educational its not so bad, at least in my opinion.
Companys and freelance artists, basicly anyone who's going to profit off those programs should pay for licences.
And I also realise there are free educational versions of some of the software, and if there is then people should get them instead.

mightbe

07-26-2006, 08:05 PM

As for Russell's strategy of dealing with pirates... fuck him. Fuck him for supporting the greedy ISPs who have decided to sell a product they have no intention of delivering on. My ISP has gotten so stingy with their bandwidth that they have blocked off the port used for City of Heroes' patcher, and now I can never play it again.

Nothing quite matches the rage of a gamer denied his MMO of choice. I spent two weeks working with verizon to get COH working for me. A week after it finally did, they pushed a patch that was fucked on my laptop's graphics system. I was in the consumer denied mode for a week before heading back over to WoW.

Now it's Magic: Online for me.

Heretic Machine

07-26-2006, 08:19 PM

Nothing quite matches the rage of a gamer denied his MMO of choice. I spent two weeks working with verizon to get COH working for me. A week after it finally did, they pushed a patch that was fucked on my laptop's graphics system. I was in the consumer denied mode for a week before heading back over to WoW.

Now it's Magic: Online for me.

With my problem it isn't something I can "work" with them to get fixed. They intentionally blocked it (because it falls into the same range as a lot of bit torrent traffic, which they should also not be blocking...) and now no one on this ISP can play CoH. I wasn't even the first one to call them about it, they knew the problem was there because other people called. They just say, "We aren't blocking anything." Well, that is funny jackass, because the connection gets halted right at the ISP.

CannibalKid

07-26-2006, 08:21 PM

I think game piracy is problem for three reasons: it's cheap and it's easy and you probably won't get arrested.

Thats it. Don't like piracy? You have to have authentication, every time you load the game, every customer, regardless of single player or not. It's an inconvience to a customer, but it's a necessary evil. Even Valve's mod tools require steam for authentication.

Don't want to subject your customers to that? Develop on a console, or lose more and more money as torrent trackers gets more and more connections.

Heretic Machine

07-26-2006, 08:26 PM

BloodPack

07-26-2006, 08:38 PM

you guys should read the book "Piracy Exposed" it might open your eyes instead of the narrow view a lot of people seem to have about piracy.

aversion2k

07-26-2006, 08:39 PM

Your solution is to punish honest consumers while pirates simply tear out all of your "authentication"? I bet the geniuses at Starforce would love you.

But it does cut back the piracy somewhat. The casual gamer might not be able to figure it out.
It does suck for legitimate customers though. It took me over a day to get my (legit) copy sin working on my pc (...56k connection :() while friends of mine who had pirated it had it up and running in a few minutes.

But its either everyone puts up with having to make a few tiny sacrifices to get the games running. Waiting, putting in cds, registering..maybe even starforce :(
or
even less pc games.

The Continental

07-26-2006, 08:42 PM

Don't want to subject your customers to that? Develop on a console, or lose more and more money as torrent trackers gets more and more connections.

Since when did consoles become immune to piracy? Two friends of mine modded both Xboxes and PS2s, for the sole purpose of making use of downloaded game images. If anything the console piracy experience was easier than on the PC. You download an image, transfer it to your upgraded HD via network, and you're off to the races. You didn't have to worry about cd keys, cracks, authentication, copy protection schemes like Star Force etc.

If anything, the console user base is just less informed due to the smaller financial and cognitive barriers to entry to console gaming (not a slight against console gamers, so please don't derail the topic). PC Gaming by its nature requires a fairly vested interest in the PC in general (hardware, drivers, etc.) to not only use, but to get the most out of games for the platform. Whereas a console, you plug in, turn it on and pop in a game. This ease of use doesn't prompt console gamers to actively seek information as to the inner workings of the machine. They know it does what they want it to do in a uniform fashion, regardless of how they use it, be it their own system, a friends, or a demonstration unit.

On a very related side note, I should mention that everyone I've known that has modded their console to play pirated games is also an avid PC user.

Savok

07-26-2006, 08:53 PM

I gotta say I'm with Perigon on this, ISPs (American ones anyway, Aussie ones for the most part have been pretty great so far, if overpriced and with minimal bandwidth) don't need more excuses to fuck their customers. The road of more and more extreme anti-piracy crap is self destructive, when it becomes safer to pirate a product (Starforce, rootkits), something is deperatly wrong.

That said, I'd be pretty embarassed if I pirated Sin, buying the thing was embarassing enough for me, to go to the trouble and risk of piracy for, well, that? Geez.

kid cabelgo

07-26-2006, 09:10 PM

Why would you steal photoshop, 3d studio max, or office, when there are free open-source options that do exactly the same thing (Gimp, Blender, and openOffice)? At that point, it's just spite and 'OMG i hate micro$oft' at play.

You gotta factor in students that can't afford to buy a new student version of photoshop every time a new one is released. And those open source versions, while great for what they do, are not the same thing. Unless you can find me a photoshop clone that can handle HDR raw capture, I'll have to stick with the real deal.

Oh, and I personally think that Valve has the right idea for fighting piracy. Providing us with a super easy and quick way to buy and play games that also automatically updates them is the biggest piracy deterrant I've encountered yet. I really like having access to a gaming "account" with a huge library of games that I can play on any of my computers. If I could buy all games on steam I would never even be tempted to pirate.

captainstrombosis

07-26-2006, 09:23 PM

kid cabelgo

07-26-2006, 09:27 PM

Your experience with Steam has been one of the shining examples. For everyone that has had an experience like you. There are atleast as many who want to stab the person who came up with the idea, right in his face. I had such a hard time with steam for a while. It finally cleared itself up one day a couple years ago. It's the same with Starforce. I have never had a problem with it. But so many other people say they have. So honestly, any invasive kind of copyprotection can be a real issue.

It seems like all the steam horror stories i hear are years old when the system was first started. It seems like ever since the age of source the thing has been smooth as silk though. I'm just wondering how many people are going to keep loathing steam because of it. It seems silly to me.

trip1eX

07-26-2006, 09:31 PM

Wow I thought Steam would have helped curb piracy a bit. Doesn't sound like it. I hope consoles offer mouse/keyboard eventually.

captainstrombosis

07-26-2006, 09:40 PM

It seems like all the steam horror stories i hear are years old when the system was first started. It seems like ever since the age of source the thing has been smooth as silk though. I'm just wondering how many people are going to keep loathing steam because of it. It seems silly to me.

They will come back with a vengeance if ISP's keep blocking out ports like they have been doing.

lockwoodx

07-26-2006, 09:41 PM

LOL you want a good example of the morons who pirate games then beg and whine to tech support for bug fixes check out the TitanQuest tech support forums.

kid cabelgo

07-26-2006, 09:51 PM

They will come back with a vengeance if ISP's keep blocking out ports like they have been doing.

I wasn't aware any ISPs were actually blocking any ports used games on steam and steam itself. Those closest thing to that is just crappy routers that come with some broadband like SBC's 2wire routers.

Hooray for trying to type a reply while watching TV

laggerific

07-26-2006, 10:09 PM

Your solution is to punish honest consumers while pirates simply tear out all of your "authentication"? I bet the geniuses at Starforce would love you.

that's been the publishers take on it forever. I think Warren Spector has a healthy understanding of the people out there...but then again, developers just want to develop...mainly it's the publishers that push this painful copy protection on us that treats us all like thieves, legitimate customer or not. Look at Bethesda pimping no CD cracks for Morrowind, just so their customers could play the game as it should be played.

UnderHero5

07-26-2006, 11:06 PM

you guys should read the book "Piracy Exposed" it might open your eyes instead of the narrow view a lot of people seem to have about piracy.
Do you know of any torrents for the e-book?

Edit: Never mind. I found it. The full title is "Software Piracy Exposed"

Deadend

07-26-2006, 11:41 PM

Do you know of any torrents for the e-book?

Edit: Never mind. I found it. The full title is "Software Piracy Exposed"

Funniest post of the day!

I only know one person who has Steam trouble, and he is on a 56k modem, and his problem is getting the updates.

Steam also likes to cause trouble at LAN parties without internet connections.

On the TitanQuest thing... it's so true, the game has many nasty bugs for pirates, and a few for legit customers as well, but the pirate ones get the random crashes more often.

Steam is probably the best solution so far, from both sides of the issue. If they wanted to make piracy undoable over Steam, all they need to do is disable offline mode and make each client occasionaly send information to a verifcation server and recive an OK! packet that is hashed up or whatever. As of right now, you don't have to do this, because Valve wants to let people play without an internet connection, well, mostly.

Online Verification is THE ONLY method that can work long-term, as closed loop and local systems can, and will be broken, simply because all the needed materials are on hand for a would be pirate.

Varsity

07-27-2006, 12:08 AM

As for Russell's strategy of dealing with pirates... fuck him. Fuck him for supporting the greedy ISPs who have decided to sell a product they have no intention of delivering on.
As I like to say, abuse it and lose it. It sucks when good traffic is thrown out with the bad, but that's hardly an argument against the whole idea.

I'm just wondering how many people are going to keep loathing steam because of it. It seems silly to me.
Some people haven't used it for several years and assume it's still the same.

Wow I thought Steam would have helped curb piracy a bit. Doesn't sound like it.
Sure it has. It's no Starforce though.

I wasn't aware any ISPs were actually blocking any ports used games on steam and steam itself.
There's one in Germany or something.

Heretic Machine

07-27-2006, 12:54 AM

I wasn't aware any ISPs were actually blocking any ports used games on steam and steam itself. Those closest thing to that is just crappy routers that come with some broadband like SBC's 2wire routers.

Hooray for trying to type a reply while watching TV

As I already said, my ISP blocked all of the default bit torrent ports (which they shouldn't do, since it is MY GOD DAMN BANDWIDTH) which also happens to include the port used for the CoH patcher. No patcher means no patches, no patches means no play, no play means I don't pay Cryptic a monthly fee anymore.

Savok

07-27-2006, 01:13 AM

Back when I was reading the dev posts everyday at the CoH forums, they were actively trying to help people in Perigon's situation by talking to the ISPs (yes, plural). Most of the time it didn't do anything though, the ISPs would either lie to them (how does it feel Statesman) or simply refuse to do anything about the problem.

destpy

07-27-2006, 01:18 AM

Bingo. I use piracy as my own means of demoing. Most games dont have free demos. If it's great, I buy it.

Anyways, the solution to making money is to stop focusing on fancy graphics. If a character model takes a team of six people to design across a 4 month span, you're doing something wrong. We need more 2D games anyway. Come up with something original, and people might buy your shit. A nice beautiful epic 1 million dollar game is good to have about once or twice a year, but we don't need every title trying to become that.

so agree! The day I can return for full refund, a bugy piece of crap game is the day i'd prob stop dling pirated games. My general rule of thumb is if i think i'll get 10+ hours of a gameplay, its time for a trip to EB or BestBuy and pick it up. If its a game i don't think i'll enjoy by the end of the demo, or first hour of gameplay, into the recyling bin it goes

Rafer

07-27-2006, 01:23 AM

Since when did consoles become immune to piracy? Two friends of mine modded both Xboxes and PS2s, for the sole purpose of making use of downloaded game images.

I think it's funny how the Gamecube had hardly any piracy on it, yet you didn't see developers flocking in huge numbers to that platform. I've even read that the xbox had a higher software attach rate despite the rampant piracy of xbox games over the internet. Either piracy somehow helped xbox sales or the number of xbox pirates weren't statistically significant.

easi

07-27-2006, 01:34 AM

Yo ho, yo ho, a pirate's life for me.
We pillage, we plunder, we rifle, and loot,
Drink up, me 'earties, yo ho.
We kidnap and ravage and don't give a hoot,
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.

Yo ho, yo ho, a pirate's life for me.
We extort, we pilfer, we filch, and sack,
Drink up, me 'earties, yo ho.
Maraud and embezzle, and even high-jack,
Drink up, me 'earties, yo ho.

Yo ho, yo ho, a pirate's life for me.
We kindle and char, inflame and ignite,
Drink up, me 'earties, yo ho.
We burn up the city, we're really a fright,
Drink up, me 'earties, yo ho.

We're rascals, scoundrels, villans, and knaves,
Drink up, me 'earties, yo ho.
We're devils and black sheep, really bad eggs,
Drink up, me 'earties, yo ho.

Yo ho, yo ho, a pirate's life for me.
We're beggars and blighters, ne'er-do-well cads,
Drink up, me 'earties, yo ho.
Aye, but we're loved by our mommies and dads,
Drink up, me 'earties, yo ho.

pseudopseudo

07-27-2006, 03:22 AM

Xaerin

07-27-2006, 03:24 AM

Since we're breaking out the pirate songs...
A Pirate I Was Meant To Be! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-9my0tsutw)

Heretic Machine

07-27-2006, 03:27 AM

Since we're breaking out the pirate songs...
A Pirate I Was Meant To Be! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-9my0tsutw)

Probably the best adventure game ever made... I love the engine they used for it. It is too bad they abandoned it for the crappy Grim Fandango engine (I like the game, but that engine sucks ass).

Pretzel

07-27-2006, 05:24 AM

But I mean, really, who pirates a game when they can afford to go out and buy it? Are there really that many people who do this? I'd say the more likely situation is that most pirates are teenagers, since they can no longer get jobs in most areas (because employment is so bad that middle aged women take all the jobs as fry cooks at McDonald's, cashiers at Wal-mart... etc), and thus you aren't actually loseing any sales to begin with.

Bullshit. They can afford a $1000 computer and pay for internet each month, but can't pay for the software to run it? Tough. Most kids who pirate are pampered little pricks who simply found that they could get something for free, so they do. And saying they wouldn't buy it anyways so you aren't losing any sales is just a completely bogus. Why the hell are they playing it if they didn't want it? Once they have the game, there's NO incentive for them to go out and buy it honestly. If they didn't have the game for free, then maybe they'd have some incentive to find work in order to be able to buy games.

As for Russell's strategy of dealing with pirates... fuck him. Fuck him for supporting the greedy ISPs who have decided to sell a product they have no intention of delivering on. My ISP has gotten so stingy with their bandwidth that they have blocked off the port used for City of Heroes' patcher, and now I can never play it again. How good would it be for your business, Mike, if they blocked off the ports used by Steam?

Like it's his fault your ISP sucks? Change your ISP. Tell them why you're leaving. Maybe that would cause them to fix it. Instead you're continuing to pay them for a broken service? Obviously it's not NCSoft's fault for only providing patches via the same ports that BitTorrent uses (like they couldn't use other ports?). Nor is it your fault for continuing to use an ISP that provides service you don't like. Nope, it's Mike at Ritual's fault for reporting people who are pirating!

Savok

07-27-2006, 05:37 AM

Obviously it's not NCSoft's fault for only providing patches via the same ports that BitTorrent uses (like they couldn't use other ports?).
As I recall they've tried that, they hit other blocks and the whole thing was huge headache. And seriously, why should Cryptic have to rewrite their code to comply with some insane ISP only a minority of their customers have? There is no good reason to block ports in the first place. Also some of us don't have a real choice in ISPs, you should try to get a real connection in rural Australia some time, barrel of god damn laughs.

easi

07-27-2006, 05:46 AM

Bullshit. They can afford a $1000 computer and pay for internet each month, but can't pay for the software to run it? Tough. Most kids who pirate are pampered little pricks who simply found that they could get something for free, so they do. And saying they wouldn't buy it anyways so you aren't losing any sales is just a completely bogus. Why the hell are they playing it if they didn't want it? Once they have the game, there's NO incentive for them to go out and buy it honestly. If they didn't have the game for free, then maybe they'd have some incentive to find work in order to be able to buy games.

People often save for a long time to afford a PC. If they spend a lot of time online, a good connection is worth the cost. Buying some overpriced piece of shit game from Peter Molyneux that was hyped up but turned out to deliver on only about 7.3% of the promises is an avoidable situation thanks to piracy. As far as people "playing the game if they didn't want it", it's called try before you buy. Thanks to corporate greed we see less and less demos, and even when they do release one it shows about 0.3% of the game.

captainstrombosis

07-27-2006, 05:59 AM

Really? I havn't had a problem finding a demo for any game I'm waiting on. You sure demo's are getting more rare?

Goronmon

07-27-2006, 06:17 AM

Like it's his fault your ISP sucks? Change your ISP. Tell them why you're leaving. Maybe that would cause them to fix it. Instead you're continuing to pay them for a broken service?You seriously need to use that brain of yours a little more before you post. What if people have no choice in broadband connection? (and no, 56k isn't a viable alternative anymore) At home, my parents have a choice between a small DSL provider or no broadband internet. Where exactly are they supposed to go for internet if they leave that provider?

Obviously it's not NCSoft's fault for only providing patches via the same ports that BitTorrent uses (like they couldn't use other ports?).Answer me this question. Is BitTorrent illegal?

Wyrm

07-27-2006, 06:46 AM

I don't think you speak authoritatively about piracy until you make a game worth pirating. Ohhh, zing.

My philosophy about pirating (and I dont do it), is that if a game is good, for the most part, it will sell well. The most vocal tirades against piracy have been from shitty game companies that make shitty games because they don't want to own up to the fact that sales are lacking because of their own crappy development skills.

Now, it's true that there is too much of it going on. Honest to god good games lose potential sales because of it. But honestly, you're kidding yourself if you think Sin lost potential customers because of "rampant piracy". The people that pirated it never would have gone out and bought it in the first place.

bean19

07-27-2006, 06:54 AM

One of my best friends steals every PC game he could get his hands on, and I've been guilty of playing copies of games that he is done with that I wouldn't buy anyway because I couldn't afford them, or they did not appeal to me for whatever reason.

It hasn't led to me buying more games than I would have otherwise. . . Instead, I either throw it away and uninstall it if the game is crap after an hour or three of trying it. If it's good though, I don't suddenly decide to uninstall it and then insist on buying a legitimate copy before beating the game, and I don't think other people do either. I beat the game, and then I just throw it away quietly and moralize that I've thrown away money on crappy games before, so I shouldn't have to pay for the one that didn't suck.

And I'm generally a very moral person. It took a lot of persuading to get me to even try the pirated games. . . and a particularly bad game that I was interested in seeing for the comedy of it, but not in actually playing seriously.

Now he's moved away, and I don't have the easy access to these, so I'm back on the good side of the law. Also, I only ran into ONE game that I really loved and played all the way through via the pirated copies. . . After I write this I plan on going out to purchase it. $50 is an affordable exchange for my dignity.

Wyrm

07-27-2006, 06:59 AM

The thing that people seem to forget, is that it's still stealing. I did my fair share of it back in the day, and I've still been known to download a song or two, but it is most definitely still stealing. It may not be the worst form of it. You may not be robbing a bank. But it is as though you just walked into the gamestore when the clerk was in the back, and grabbed a copy of whatever game, and walked out.

Regardless of whether you buy the game later or not, it is still stealing. Now, I personally dont think this guy has any reason to complain. The fact that his shitty game sold at all says that people (like me, I was dumb enough to think it would be cool) will buy crap off Steam without thinking twice about it. He should take his sales and run with them because his shoddy work on the first game certainly insures that I wont be back for the next installment.

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 07:09 AM

Wyrm

07-27-2006, 07:28 AM

i look out for myself; primarily. then its family and friends.

game devs? meh, i don't know them.

i will steal their games, and continue to until i get caught.

i come out on top because i still have that $60 in my pocket. oh well.

i see myself as a company who must save every penny by any means possible in order to operate.

actually thats how a lot of companies work. if you really wanna stretch it, you can say piracy is a product of corporate capitalism in north america - everyone looking out for themselves without a care for anyone else.

The issue in this case is less the fact that people pirate his game and more the fact that they expect support from him after doing so.

And your logic is pretty terrible. I buy groceries for my family. I could steal them and still have the $50 in my pocket, but then I'd be a petty thief, just like you. Do you realize how desensitized you must be that you are thinking that way? Would you take $50 bucks out of someone's purse? What if someone at your job was stealing things from wherever you worked and you were getting a pay cut because of it?

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 07:37 AM

The issue in this case is less the fact that people pirate his game and more the fact that they expect support from him after doing so.

And your logic is pretty terrible. I buy groceries for my family. I could steal them and still have the $50 in my pocket, but then I'd be a petty thief, just like you. Do you realize how desensitized you must be that you are thinking that way? Would you take $50 bucks out of someone's purse? What if someone at your job was stealing things from wherever you worked and you were getting a pay cut because of it?

i buy groceries for myself and my family as well - if i could steal them without getting caught, 100%, i would.

i realize how desensitized I am - and i objectively look at myself, and i just shrug. I've watched too many documentaries about corporate business practices and how to run a sucessful corporation - its all about screwing over everyone around you and having no heart.

i wouldn't take $50 out of someone's purse.

if someone was stealing from my work and i was getting pay cuts because of it, i would try to find that person, and stop them, but i wouldn't hope for my pay to go back up again - take a pay cut lying down, and you'll never get it back.

find a new job.

edit: and i'm not really using logic per se... i'm just describing my horrible character.

Wyrm

07-27-2006, 07:43 AM

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 07:57 AM

You wouldn't take $50 out of an old woman's purse, but you'd steal a $50 dollar game? How is that better?

And they are actively trying to find you. Someday, stealing will not just be illegal, you also wont be able to do it. I'm not the fucking king of the morals or anything by a long shot. I'm fucked up in all my own ways, but I like to think that at the very least, I live by pretty honorable rules. When someone creates a good or service that warrants a payment, I pay for it because our world does not work and revolve around hand outs, nor does it work to go through life stealing everything.

I'm not trying to lecture you, your choices are yours to make, for better or for worse, but there are a lot of things wrong with our world when people can think that it's no skin off their back to just steal every little thing they can.

stealing $50 out of a purse is physical. you have to get up, shuffle through personal items, see the person you're stealing from, etc etc etc. it absolutely feels much worse, though they may be the same degree of....'badness'. (though if i were to rate it, i'd say that stealing from a company is not as bad as an individual).

Yes - someday piracy will be absolutely impossible. The companies always win - money always gets its way in the end; at the expense of what? who knows, who cares. Right now we're in the golden age of piracy. It'll never be as good as it is today, and it will only get harder.

but like it has been said many times: pirating does not *feel* like stealing - its defined as stealing, but it sure as hell doesn't feel like it.

1. there is no face - you're stealing from a group of people.

2. you don't have to see them.

3. you can assume they have bucket-loads more money than you.

4. you can do it from your home with minimal effort.

5. there are zero consequences directly to you (yet).

when it becomes more trouble than its worth, i won't do it anymore. i'm branded a thief b/c i pirate, yet i don't shoplift or rob houses.

whatever - if labelling me a dirty, moral-less, weak, worthless thief (and any other multitude of names people come up with) makes you feel better about who you are, and how you live your life; go for it.

Want to sit up on your moral high horse and think of yourself as better than others around you because you buy software - fine.... no sweat off my back.

yeah and there are a lot of things wrong with the world. me feeling no remorse for stealing software being a very minor one.

and i'm not just pointing at you as a self-righteous pompus ass - its everyone who talks about buying games like its a duty or something that makes them better. the 'you' i use in this post is directed at everybody on their high horses. hehehe...

Goronmon

07-27-2006, 08:01 AM

Regardless of whether you buy the game later or not, it is still stealing.Thats arguable. What exactly are you "stealing"? If you download a game off the internet, at what point was the product "stolen"? Was it when the original person made a copy of a legitimate copy of the product? Was it when you downloaded the copy from that person? Was it when you installed the copy? Was it when you ran the copy?

Imagine you invented a device that could replicate a sandwich (I know, I know, its a terrible analogy). You go to Subway buy a sub, bring it home and make a copy so you and your friend can each have one. Did you just steal the "copied" sandwich?

Yes, pirating software isn't like replicating a sandwich. However, my mind has a hard time not thinking of it with the same general principles.

Savok

07-27-2006, 08:05 AM

edit: and i'm not really using logic per se... i'm just describing my horrible character.
Well, 100% success there.

yeah and there are a lot of things wrong with the world. me feeling no remorse for stealing software being a very minor one.
You're right, what you think about things means bugger all, however the culture "I can do whatever the hell I please because I can get away with it" is making everyone else's life hell. And the doctors wonder why I don't leave the house.

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 08:07 AM

Well, 100% success there.

You're right, what you think about things means bugger all, however the culture "I can do whatever the hell I please because I can get away with it" is making everyone else's life hell. And the doctors wonder why I don't leave the house.

"I can do whatever the hell I please because I can get away with it"

lemme fix this: "I can do whatever the hell i please THAT i can (100%) get away with".

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 08:10 AM

Savok

07-27-2006, 08:12 AM

Savok

07-27-2006, 08:14 AM

lemme fix this: "I can do whatever the hell i please THAT i can (100%) get away with".
You're a boon to civilization.

Also congrats on finding your shift key.

Goronmon

07-27-2006, 08:16 AM

When you buy a copy of a game, you're paying for the effort, time and intellectual resources put into it, the product itself is merely an incentive to buy it, you're effectivly taking pieces of people's lives and making them worthless.You borrow your neighbor's lawnmower. Time and intellectual resources were put into designing it, manufacturing it and selling it. Are you stealing the lawnmower?

Edit: By that logic, buying and selling used software/games is stealing as well.

Wyrm

07-27-2006, 08:16 AM

Thats arguable. What exactly are you "stealing"? If you download a game off the internet, at what point was the product "stolen"? Was it when the original person made a copy of a legitimate copy of the product? Was it when you downloaded the copy from that person? Was it when you installed the copy? Was it when you ran the copy?

Imagine you invented a device that could replicate a sandwich (I know, I know, its a terrible analogy). You go to Subway buy a sub, bring it home and make a copy so you and your friend can each have one. Did you just steal the "copied" sandwich?

Yes, pirating software isn't like replicating a sandwich. However, my mind has a hard time not thinking of it with the same general principles.

No, you are one of the people I'm talking to here. You cannot spin it any other way. There is no grey zone here, no blurred line, IT IS STEALING. There are no two ways about it, there is no other way to say it, it is NOT debatable.

I'm not saying you do it, I'm not saying I don't, I'm just telling you not to have any illusions about what you do when you download a game from someone. You used an example of a subway sandwhich. Well, you're right, that's a pretty bad analogy. Consider this:

There is a master copy of whatever piece of software you are buying. It is the "gold" copy by which all others are created. Does that make each copy any less valuable than the original? No. It is still a product. Whether or not is worth the money to buy it is up to you, but dont fool yourself about what it actually means when you download a "copy" of a game from a torrent. It's still that game, which means you didn't buy it, which, in turn means you stole it.

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 08:18 AM

You're a boon to civilization.

Also congrats on finding your shift key.

my point was that people don't do whatever they want.

nobody does whatever they want - and those who do, usually don't get away with it.

but if you can absolutely get away with it, many will do it.

and the shift was for emphasis, b/c i was too lazy to use the bold, italics or underline.

Wyrm

07-27-2006, 08:20 AM

You borrow your neighbor's lawnmower. Time and intellectual resources were put into designing it, manufacturing it and selling it. Are you stealing the lawnmower?

Edit: By that logic, buying and selling used software/games is stealing as well.

That's a retarded arguement. That's akin to renting a game from the store. Do you own it? No. Will you give it back to your neighbor? Hopefully, unless you want to be that neighbor that steals shit. Borrowing a game from your friend and cracking the exe so you dont have to buy it IS stealing. You did not pay for your own copy of the game, thus, you are indeed stealing. You cannot spin it any other way.

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 08:22 AM

No, you are one of the people I'm talking to here. You cannot spin it any other way. There is no grey zone here, no blurred line, IT IS STEALING. There are no two ways about it, there is no other way to say it, it is NOT debatable.

I'm not saying you do it, I'm not saying I don't, I'm just telling you not to have any illusions about what you do when you download a game from someone. You used an example of a subway sandwhich. Well, you're right, that's a pretty bad analogy. Consider this:

There is a master copy of whatever piece of software you are buying. It is the "gold" copy by which all others are created. Does that make each copy any less valuable than the original? No. It is still a product. Whether or not is worth the money to buy it is up to you, but dont fool yourself about what it actually means when you download a "copy" of a game from a torrent. It's still that game, which means you didn't buy it, which, in turn means you stole it.

you're right.

there are plenty of grey areas though when it comes to movies and, especially, television.

here's an educational video for all you who still think copying video games is not stealing:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4837609090332617729

Goronmon

07-27-2006, 08:23 AM

I'm not saying you do it, I'm not saying I don't, I'm just telling you not to have any illusions about what you do when you download a game from someone. You used an example of a subway sandwhich. Well, you're right, that's a pretty bad analogy.I know why its a bad analogy, but I'm interested in hearing why others think it is a bad analogy.

Consider this:
There is a master copy of whatever piece of software you are buying. It is the "gold" copy by which all others are created. Does that make each copy any less valuable than the original? No. It is still a product. Whether or not is worth the money to buy it is up to you, but dont fool yourself about what it actually means when you download a "copy" of a game from a torrent. It's still that game, which means you didn't buy it, which, in turn means you stole it.Why is a copy just as valuable as the original? Because you say so?

Wyrm

07-27-2006, 08:25 AM

I still disagree with you. If you're downloading movies, you are most definitely stealing. TV, while I suppose it could be debated, if you are downloading the DVD of a season of friends off of a bit torrent THAT IS STEALING. A low quality Youtube rip of a tv show that you couldn't make it home to watch is not that big of a deal.

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 08:26 AM

Why is a copy just as valuable as the original? Because you say so?

because it's actually exactly the same as the original.

unlike paintings etc, data can be reproduced in the exact form as the original.

Savok

07-27-2006, 08:26 AM

You borrow your neighbor's lawnmower. Time and intellectual resources were put into designing it, manufacturing it and selling it. Are you stealing the lawnmower?

Edit: By that logic, buying and selling used software/games is stealing as well.
No because there's still only one and you're borrowing it.

Also 2nd hand games were once retail and as such have already been paid for.

captainstrombosis

07-27-2006, 08:26 AM

No, you are one of the people I'm talking to here. You cannot spin it any other way. There is no grey zone here, no blurred line, IT IS STEALING. There are no two ways about it, there is no other way to say it, it is NOT debatable.

It is debatable. It's a copy of the game without removing the game from someone. That's not actually stealing. I have never pirated a game in my life, but people who think downloading a game is the same as walking into the store and stealing a hardcopy are wrong. You don't remove it from someones possesion. No one has to replace the copy at their expense.

I'm not saying it's RIGHT to pirate. But it's not the same as simply stealing. It's not black and white. Life never really is, but especially so in this case.

Goronmon

07-27-2006, 08:27 AM

That's akin to renting a game from the store. Do you own it? No. Will you give it back to your neighbor? Hopefully, unless you want to be that neighbor that steals shit.What if he/she let's you borrow it every day for a decade? Is that different than making a copy of a game that you play every weekend for a decade?

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 08:28 AM

Wyrm

07-27-2006, 08:28 AM

I know why its a bad analogy, but I'm interested in hearing why others think it is a bad analogy.

Why is a copy just as valuable as the original? Because you say so?

You are getting the same thing they spent possible several years slaving over that everyone else is getting. It's a product. A product that cost other people money to create. If you want to buy that product, it will cost you money. This is one of the most basic facets of our economy.

No one is forcing you to buy bad games. I'm not telling you not to pirate. I'm not standing on anyone's side. I'm trying to tell you that you're wrong. You cannot pirate a game and think of it as anything more than a petty theft. Any thoughts to the contrary are illusions and should be dismissed just as quickly.

Wyrm

07-27-2006, 08:31 AM

It is debatable. It's a copy of the game without removing the game from someone. That's not actually stealing. I have never pirated a game in my life, but people who think downloading a game is the same as walking into the store and stealing a hardcopy are wrong. You don't remove it from someones possesion. No one has to replace the copy at their expense.

I'm not saying it's RIGHT to pirate. But it's not the same as simply stealing. It's not black and white. Life never really is, but especially so in this case.

You are still preventing a potential sale.

The truth is, it really is stealing. No, you aren't physically taking a product off of a store shelf, but the cycle of piracy means that you wont see the effects right away. Eventually, if there is too much of it, the store selling the games will suffer from it as well. Every person that pirates the game means another potential (and dont tell me not everyone will buy the game anyway, I know that, that's why it's potential) sale lost. The store takes a hit, so does the company because the store wont buy more copies of the game to replenish its stock.

Savok

07-27-2006, 08:32 AM

What if he/she let's you borrow it every day for a decade? Is that different than making a copy of a game that you play every weekend for a decade?
That comes under joint ownership almost. Fact is you can't both use that lawnmower at once and neither can have it at all times.

Wyrm

07-27-2006, 08:33 AM

movies: i download movies that are shown on my television.

TV: download TV rips.

stealing? grey area right there.

When a movie is on TV, it's being sponsored by a shit ton of different things, same as tv shows. That's how they get to keep being on TV. If everyone torrented TV shows, they'd all go off the air.

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 08:34 AM

You are still preventing a potential sale.

The truth is, it really is stealing. No, you aren't physically taking a product off of a store shelf, but the cycle of piracy means that you wont see the effects right away. Eventually, if there is too much of it, the store selling the games will suffer from it as well. Every person that pirates the game means another potential (and dont tell me not everyone will buy the game anyway, I know that, that's why it's potential) sale lost. The store takes a hit, so does the company because the store wont buy more copies of the game to replenish its stock.

yet the good games are still successfull and the gaming industry is healthy.

the cream rises to the top; the ones who deserve it get whats coming to them (i.e. blizzard) and the ones who don't, miss out.

don't ya love capitalism?

Goronmon

07-27-2006, 08:34 AM

No because there's still only one and you're borrowing it.So, then pirating is bad not because of the time and resources that went into the product, but because there exists two copies when there should only be one?

captainstrombosis

07-27-2006, 08:34 AM

You are still preventing a potential sale.

The truth is, it really is stealing. No, you aren't physically taking a product off of a store shelf, but the cycle of piracy means that you wont see the effects right away. Eventually, if there is too much of it, the store selling the games will suffer from it as well. Every person that pirates the game means another potential (and dont tell me not everyone will buy the game anyway, I know that, that's why it's potential) sale lost. The store takes a hit, so does the company because the store wont buy more copies of the game to replenish its stock.

There are so many things in life people share. It's simply NORMAL for people to let others use their stuff. What is the difference between me lending my neighbor a radial saw when he needs it? Is he stealing? Am I facilitating stealing? I don't quite understand the difference, if there even is one.

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 08:35 AM

When a movie is on TV, it's being sponsored by a shit ton of different things, same as tv shows. That's how they get to keep being on TV. If everyone torrented TV shows, they'd all go off the air.

watch "the future of bittorrent"

the speaker predicts that bittorrent will be the end of TV as we know it.

heh.

i havent had cable television (paid for TV) since 1990.

Wyrm

07-27-2006, 08:35 AM

What if he/she let's you borrow it every day for a decade? Is that different than making a copy of a game that you play every weekend for a decade?

I dont know why you keep using analogies that just dont apply to this subject. You cannot apply the principle of borrowing a lawnmower from your next door neighbor to stealing a computer game.

Since you don't seem to know, I'll tell you. You are stealing the game. It is stealing. That's theft. That's a crime. I do not know how to make it any more clear.

Again, I'll reiterate. I could care less about what you do in your spare time. If you want to pirate til your eyes bleed, have at it, but just dont be such a scumbag that you have to call it something it isnt.

Goronmon

07-27-2006, 08:36 AM

You are getting the same thing they spent possible several years slaving over that everyone else is getting. It's a product. A product that cost other people money to create. If you want to buy that product, it will cost you money. This is one of the most basic facets of our economy.That goes back to the "borrowing" issue. Why does borrowing stuff make this problem all of a sudden go away? You are getting use of a product without paying for it.

Wyrm

07-27-2006, 08:37 AM

That goes back to the "borrowing" issue. Why does borrowing stuff make this problem all of a sudden go away? You are getting use of a product without paying for it.

The analogy does not apply, stop using it as an arguement.

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 08:37 AM

There are so many things in life people share. It's simply NORMAL for people to let others use their stuff. What is the difference between me lending my neighbor a radial saw when he needs it? Is he stealing? Am I facilitating stealing? I don't quite understand the difference, if there even is one.

the difference is: when you lend a video game, you don't have to give it away. you both can have it at the same time.

with any other physical product thats impossible.

society just hasn't come to grips yet with how to deal with digital products.

digital products will be as impossible to duplicate as physical products sometime in our near future - i'm sure of it - until then; i'm taking what i can get.

captainstrombosis

07-27-2006, 08:37 AM

Wyrm, you could say the sky is purple. That doesn't mean it is true. We are asking for an explination. I don't see how it is the same. Denying and physically taking money from people (like hardcopy games) physically removes money from their pockets. However if you download a game you are at most denying them a POTENTIAL sale as you said. That's not the same.

I use the borrowing analogy because you brought up potential sale. If simply tell my neighbor to go to hell. He would then have to buy a radial saw to use one. By lending anything to people your denying a potential sale. Which applies to your reasoning.

Goronmon

07-27-2006, 08:37 AM

You cannot apply the principle of borrowing a lawnmower from your next door neighbor to stealing a computer game.Why not?

Since you don't seem to know, I'll tell you. You are stealing the game. It is stealing. That's theft. That's a crime. I do not know how to make it any more clear.I'm sorry if my intellectual curiousity pisses you off, but I argue so that I can understand the issue better. Saying "Its wrong because its wrong" is worthless to me.

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 08:39 AM

Since you don't seem to know, I'll tell you. You are stealing the game. It is stealing. That's theft. That's a crime. I do not know how to make it any more clear.

how's the weather up there?

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 08:42 AM

Wyrm, you could say the sky is purple. That doesn't mean it is true. We are asking for an explination. I don't see how it is the same. Denying and physically taking money from people (like hardcopy games) physically removes money from their pockets. However if you download a game you are at most denying them a POTENTIAL sale as you said. That's not the same.

he's not lending with software. he's giving you your own copy without losing his own.

Savok

07-27-2006, 08:43 AM

So, then pirating is bad not because of the time and resources that went into the product, but because there exists two copies when there should only be one?
Yes, the existence of that single copy is your proof of purchase. Just because you can duplicate such information for nothing (almost nothing if you burn a disc) doesn't mean you should or that it's legal.

Wyrm

07-27-2006, 08:43 AM

how's the weather up there?
I already told you I dont think msyelf above anyone who pirates games. I just dont call it anything other than what it is. If you want to call it something else, that's your perrogative. You can dilute it all you want.

Wyrm, you could say the sky is purple. That doesn't mean it is true. We are asking for an explination. I don't see how it is the same. Denying and physically taking money from people (like hardcopy games) physically removes money from their pockets. However if you download a game you are at most denying them a POTENTIAL sale as you said. That's not the same.

I use the borrowing analogy because you brought up potential sale. If simply tell my neighbor to go to hell. He would then have to buy a radial saw to use one. By lending anything to people your denying a potential sale. Which applies to your reasoning.

Yeah, but I'm not saying the sky is purple. I'm telling something you should know. When you download a game that you didn't pay for, that's stealing.

I'm sorry for being an ass about that analogy, I just dont think you can apply it to data. It's just not the same.

Why not?

I'm sorry if my intellectual curiousity pisses you off, but I argue so that I can understand the issue better. Saying "Its wrong because its wrong" is worthless to me.
I'm not saying it's wrong because it's wrong. It's wrong for a fuck ton of reasons, the least of which being that you're taking money out of the hands of a developer who might actually deserve it (though not in this case). Like I said, you can call it what you want, it's still theft.

Kelegacy

07-27-2006, 08:44 AM

Devs are charging more money for less content, and the modding community as a whole seems to be dieing. Thus, we get six hour games for $50 (or $60), and no way to extend it's meager value with mods.

Meh, I'm just going to stop buying games one of these days.

I like long games, even if I never beat them. Having too much content is better than not enough. I've mourned the epic games from just a few years ago, and RPGs have become short, shallow little creations, with developers just plain giving up or getting lazy (my beefs with the nu-Bioware RPGs are well-known).

I will not buy a game for 50 or 60 bucks that gives me 6-10 hours of game time. I bought Oblivion because that made sense. Prey didn't. I will just continue to watch and wait until a game hits a reasonable price tag vs. game time ratio and I'll then jump over it, like I did with Kameo this week for 19.99.

I'll never stop playing and buying games probably, but I can see myself no longer being an on-the-pulse gamer, instead just being some dude that picks up dozens of games when they hit the bargain bin or are purchase-prudent.

captainstrombosis

07-27-2006, 08:45 AM

he's not lending with software. he's giving you your own copy without losing his own.

It's not about the physical lending. I understand that part. He can't have it while I do. However wyrm brought up potential sale. Which physically lending someone something still denies a potential sale. So I'm asking for his reasoning. I have already said pirating is pirating. It's simply not the same as stealing money however.

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 08:46 AM

I already told you I dont think msyelf above anyone who pirates games. I just dont call it anything other than what it is. If you want to call it something else, that's your perrogative. You can dilute it all you want.

i agree with you.

i just don't feel anything for stealing games/software/movies/television.

i don't feel a goddamn thing. obviously, the passion with which you type your posts, and the enthusiasm with which you call me a thief, implies that you might feel something.

we're just different people with different moral centres.

Wyrm

07-27-2006, 08:47 AM

Yes, the existence of that single copy is your proof of purchase. Just because you can duplicate such information for nothing (almost nothing if you burn a disc) doesn't mean you should or that it's legal.

This is what I'm trying to get across. Just because you can borrow a friend's copy of windows and crack it doesn't make it legal.

Goronmon

07-27-2006, 08:47 AM

It's wrong for a fuck ton of reasons, the least of which being that you're taking money out of the hands of a developer who might actually desvere it (though not in this case).You are going to hate this question, but I'm asking it anyways. If I design a better program than the one another developer is selling, am I stealing from them?

Wyrm

07-27-2006, 08:48 AM

i agree with you.

i just don't feel anything for stealing games/software/movies/television.

i don't feel a goddamn thing. obviously, the passion with which you type your posts, and the enthusiasm with which you call me a thief, implies that you might feel something.

we're just different people with different moral centres.

You dont understand me then. I could care less. I pirate music quite frequently. I've even been known to pirate the occasional game and feel no remorse. I do, however, understand that I'm stealing. I still find it strange that I have no problem with that.

captainstrombosis

07-27-2006, 08:49 AM

I could'nt care less.

Sorry. I hate that mistake.

Goronmon

07-27-2006, 08:50 AM

Yes, the existence of that single copy is your proof of purchase. Just because you can duplicate such information for nothing (almost nothing if you burn a disc) doesn't mean you should or that it's legal.Then I'll bring up two more questions.

Does being able to duplicate something for nothing automatically make it illegal?

Is the duplication only a problem if its easy/quick to do?

Wyrm

07-27-2006, 08:50 AM

You are going to hate this question, but I'm asking it anyways. If I design a better program than the one another developer is selling, am I stealing from them?

I was going to bring that up, but I thought it didn't warrant mentioning. If you want to make your own program, then why wold that be stealing at all? You are creating your own program, with your own set of tools (hopefully). If you build a lawnmower from scratch, then you aren't borrowing your neighbor's. But, this also has nothing to do with pirating a game. If you make your own game that's better, that's completely different from downloading a game that a company spent millions creating.

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 08:52 AM

You dont understand me then. I could care less. I pirate music quite frequently. I've even been known to pirate the occasional game and feel no remorse. I do, however, understand that I'm stealing. I still find it strange that I have no problem with that.

i dont find it strange.

its simple capitalism. the bottom line is that you get something you want without any consequences to yourself. i.e. you don't pay for it, you don't get in trouble for it, you give up nothing but the bandwidth you already pay for, and the HD space on your compie.

if a company can find a way to cut costs by laying off workers, outsourcing work to 3rd world countries, and exploiting native populations, they will do it. its not illegal in that country to do it - so why not do it? you cut down your overhead and increase your profits.

i was raised in this world a shark. like every company out there - we're looking out for ourselves and trying to get the most out of the least.

Capitalism may not mean "get as much as you can by any means possible" - but it damn well works that way.

Savok

07-27-2006, 08:54 AM

Then I'll bring up two more questions.

Does being able to duplicate something for nothing automatically make it illegal?

Is the duplication only a problem if its easy/quick to do?
Name something that you can purchase, then duplicate legally.

Goronmon

07-27-2006, 08:55 AM

I was going to bring that up, but I thought it didn't warrant mentioning. If you want to make your own program, then why wold that be stealing at all? You are creating your own program, with your own set of tools (hopefully). If you build a lawnmower from scratch, then you aren't borrowing your neighbor's. But, this also has nothing to do with pirating a game. If you make your own game that's better, that's completely different from downloading a game that a company spent millions creating.The reason I bring it up is because you mentioned it as a reason why pirating was wrong and so I could make the assertion that its not a valid explaination for the reasons you listed above.

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 08:55 AM

You are going to hate this question, but I'm asking it anyways. If I design a better program than the one another developer is selling, am I stealing from them?

no, you're making it yourself.

now heres a good one: if the developer is using tools he pirated to make a game, is it ok to pirate the game he makes? hahahaha

easi

07-27-2006, 08:55 AM

bean19

07-27-2006, 08:56 AM

I'm interested in the grey areas of this discussion, but it seems like every time the subject comes up it becomes dominated by people who represent the black & white sides of the spectrum: either piracy = stealing and they'd never do it (I used to be one of these, and now I'm more grey) or the people who acknowledge that it is theft, but plan to continue stealing unless they are caught like dk.

Some grey questions:

1. Is it immoral to play pirated copies of games if you buy the license (retail copy) for any games that you played for more than 2 to 3 hours? Basically if people are being completely honest about trying before they buy, and always buying those games that are worth playing beyond a trial period, is that immoral, or just being a smart consumer of a product that does not allow returns?

I'm not sure where I fit on this spectrum, except to say that I think most people don't have the morals necessary to take the step of buying the games after they have access to a full and free copy. I know that I'm only doing so after the fact, and because $50 is not that much money for me to correct my mistakes (I'm also not playing any pirated games anymore because my friend who got them for me moved several states away). So I think that the question is probably built on an incorrect premise. . . most people will either have the morals to not touch pirated games completely, or they'll have already taken the immoral step of "trying before they buy" and will get hours of enjoyment beating short games and only buy those games with high replayability - like UT2K4, Counter-Strike, etc.

2. Would a service that allows people to try-before-they-buy for a limited time lead to increased sales for quality games and/or decreased sales for bad games?

Personally, I think it would lead to both. I know that playing demos of great games often leads me to making a purchase, but at the same time, there are games where I play the demo and I get talked OUT of a purchase. Some of you may have remembered the awesome ads that Sega put together for Full Auto. I watched them all and was completely hooked, but then the demo came out on Xbox Live, and I found out that the game wasn't much fun to actually play, so it went from a planned purchase to a Gamefly rental.

3. Game piracy is fairly petty larceny really. In most States, these thefts would result in tickets rather than real punishment. However, the game pirate that is one of my best friends steals EVERYTHING he can get his hands on despite me yelling at him about it (He has a lot more going for him than this. . . and I was friends with him years before the piracy started). Should state legislatures put a law in place that makes them look at a single count of internet piracy as a Class B misdemeanor (punishable by jail time in most states by up to 2 years but usually resulting in probation and paying a bunch of fees) - while also setting it up so that all counts are stacked together (thus each individual crime is important but they don't send someone away forever for having 30 counts of the same petty crime)?

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 08:56 AM

Name something that you can purchase, then duplicate legally.

plants.

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

Goronmon

07-27-2006, 08:56 AM

Name something that you can purchase, then duplicate legally.Food and clothing come immediately to mind.

captainstrombosis

07-27-2006, 08:58 AM

That. and most games you might decide to pirate...are probubly not worth the bandwidth you used to download them ;)

As I have said, I havn't pirated a video game. And the only song I ever pirated was Adagio for strings because Itunes didn't have it in the beginning.

My whole problem is the idea that somehow downloading videogames is like swiping someones wallet. It's not.

The gaming industry as a whole tends to rape people in the ass with the same old game mechanics, too many bugs, not enough content, crappy stories. When the ones that rise above that trend come out. They tend to make their moneys worth.

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 08:59 AM

Food and clothing come immediately to mind.

but you have to buy the material to duplicate that.

with plants: you don't need shit.

edit: actually they just *might* need some shit.... heh

Savok

07-27-2006, 08:59 AM

Plants are alive, as such it's their nature to reproduce. Food, how the hell does food make more of it self? And clothes you need material if you want to make your own.

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 09:00 AM

Plants are alive, as such it's their nature to reproduce.

software is data: therefore its in its nature to be copied.

Goronmon

07-27-2006, 09:00 AM

but you have to buy the material to duplicate that.I bought a computer, monitor, OS, keyboard, mouse, text editor, compiler, etc. Do I now have the right to copy a video game?

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 09:01 AM

I bought a computer, monitor, OS, keyboard, mouse, text editor, compiler, etc. Do I now have the right to copy a video game?

not the right, but the means.

Savok

07-27-2006, 09:05 AM

software is data: therefore its in its nature to be copied.
Technically it has no nature, it's man made, it's there to be used

Wyrm

07-27-2006, 09:05 AM

So downloading a high quality xvid is stealing but watching it on YouTube isn't? What a maroon. I'm sure this sounds perfectly logical in your head, but remember that OTHER PEOPLE are reading your posts.

Keep on trollin' buddy. Your useless contributions to every thread mean very little to anyone.

My comment about Youtube was merely that it meant very little to me in terms of how bad it is. On youtube, you're watching a shitty little rip of it. A high quality xvid is stealing because someone copied it directly off the DVD. Does that make it right for youtube to have that stuff up? No. Do I really care very much what you think?

I'm not sure if you know this, but maroon is a color.

Goron, I'm done fighting with you about it. You clearly like to argue, and while I dont mind it, I can't see myself convincing you of anything I'm saying. If you want to convince yourself that duplicating software that you dont pay for is not stealing, that's fine, just know that you are delusional.

If you're going to do something, you might as well go balls to the wall and tell it like it is.

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 09:09 AM

Technically it has no nature, it's man made, it's there to be used

ummmm ok.

well you can legally copy any software you buy. or music.

easi

07-27-2006, 09:10 AM

Maroon to moron is like "pwned" to "owned".

And why does video quality determine legality? (here's a hint: it doesn't, and it's a retarded argument)

harbo

07-27-2006, 09:21 AM

There is no grey zone here, no blurred line, IT IS STEALING.

HERE'S A HINT FOR YOU: GO TAKE A LOOK, WHAT DOES THE LAW SAY? Not stealing? HOW ASTONISHING, THERE IS INDEED NO BLURRED LINE, BUT A CLEAR ONE! ONE THING IS THEFT, OTHER IS COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT! WHAT WILL YOU DO NOW, WHEN YOU CAN'T SOUND SO RIGHTEOUS ANYMORE?!

Dude, saying things in caps and bold doesn't make it any more true or false, it just makes you look like an idiot.

BloodPack

07-27-2006, 09:36 AM

watch "the future of bittorrent"

the speaker predicts that bittorrent will be the end of TV as we know it.
Is this the video with the Aussie guy making a presentation about Bittorrent? Cuz if it is I agree its a good watch.

UnderHero5

07-27-2006, 09:40 AM

Harbo is right. I read through this entire thread just now watching Wyrm cry "It's STEALING" (while giving no proof for his arguement).
I get to the last page and there is finally a voice of reason!
Thank you Harbo.

Piracy isn't STEALING, it's copyright infringement, as Harbo said. Now shut up, Wyrm!!
Copying a game is like photocopying a books pages. Not stealing the damn book.
It's a copy, you ass, not the physical product. It's COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT, despite what people like you will endlessly shout (with no proof or reason to back it up).

And as for them "losing a potential sale" from ME not buying it. Well fear not, I am the one pirating it and I can speak for myself and say I was NOT going to buy their shitty product, so they aren't losing a thing. Not to mention they lose just as many "potential sales" from video rental stores and used game stores.

Think about a rental store. They buy a few copies then rent them out to hundreds of people. The companies who made the products only see the money from that first purchase. Had those people not been able to rent the movie, might they have bought it? They might have. Who knows. But "might have" and "would have" are two very different things and you can't prove that those people WOULD have bought said product, so there are no sales being lost, just an imaginary number of "potential" sales that these companies make up.

Wyrm

07-27-2006, 09:48 AM

Goronmon

07-27-2006, 09:50 AM

I can't see myself convincing you of anything I'm saying. If you want to convince yourself that duplicating software that you dont pay for is not stealing, that's fine, just know that you are delusional.You're right, I doubt you could convince anyone of anything considering your attitude so far as been "Things are the way they are because that's the way they are, and you are stupid for questioning it."

captainstrombosis

07-27-2006, 09:51 AM

Yeah, if you walk into a STORE and take it. Not if you download it. One requires money be spent to replace it. Meaning you stole the physical property.

Goronmon

07-27-2006, 09:52 AM

Every piece of software you buy is a copy of the original. Just like when you buy a muffin from the store, they're all made from the same recipe. That doesn't lessen the fact that it's still stealing if you walk in and take it.Maybe I've been looking at your viewpoint wrong all along. I thought your ignorance might have just been lack of understanding on the subject, but it seems like its a conscious decision.

Wyrm

07-27-2006, 09:53 AM

I didn't say you were stupid for questioning it. I'm just baffeled that so many people think there is some way to circumvent calling it theft. I know plenty of lawyers, and they will tell you both that it is a) copyright infringement, and b) petty theft. Now, whether or not you agree with a lawyer, or even the law doesn't really matter to me. I just dont know why people bother calling it something else. I suppose no one really wants to be considered a criminal, but I just dont find it to be something that is at all debatable.

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 09:54 AM

Is this the video with the Aussie guy making a presentation about Bittorrent? Cuz if it is I agree its a good watch.

yes thats the one. he talks a lot about Australian networks, but the theory can be applied to anywhere in the world.

Wyrm

07-27-2006, 09:54 AM

Maybe I've been looking at your viewpoint wrong all along. I thought your ignorance might have just been lack of understanding on the subject, but it seems like its a conscious decision.

I'm ignorant for thinking that when you download software you're stealing? Please explain your statement, if I'm missing something here just tell me.

harbo

07-27-2006, 09:56 AM

Think about a rental store. They buy a few copies then rent them out to hundreds of people. The companies who made the products only see the money from that first purchase.

Actually, the copies sold to rental stores cost quite a bit more than the copies a consumer can buy from Wal-Mart, for exactly that reason. I think I heard that a rental VHS tape used to cost 5 times as much as a consumer copy, but that may vary quite a bit on your location - the distributor is trying to milk the store (and in the end, the consumer) for as much as they can. Same is true for game rentals.

UnderHero5

07-27-2006, 09:57 AM

I suppose no one really wants to be considered a criminal, but I just dont find it to be something that is at all debatable.
Copyright infringement is still a crime.
Copying a game, however, is not theft.

Is photocopying a book "theft"??
No.

Wyrm

07-27-2006, 09:59 AM

It's a theft of intellectual property though.

UnderHero5

07-27-2006, 09:59 AM

Actually, the copies sold to rental stores cost quite a bit more than the copies a consumer can buy from Wal-Mart, for exactly that reason. I think I heard that a rental VHS tape used to cost 5 times as much as a consumer copy, but that may vary quite a bit on your location - the distributor is trying to milk the store (and in the end, the consumer) for as much as they can. Same is true for game rentals.
Regardless of whether is costs 5 times the price as normal... it's still going to end up in hundreds of hands, and none of that money is going to be seen by the publisher. The point still stands.

UnderHero5

07-27-2006, 10:00 AM

It's a theft of intellectual property though.
We have a phrase for that.
COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT

Holy crap, man.

You can't "steal" something that doesn't physically exist. You can infringe on it's copyright, however.

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 10:00 AM

It's a theft of intellectual property though.

only if you use that intellectual property for your own profit. (i.e. put mario into one of your own games/comics)

harbo

07-27-2006, 10:01 AM

I'm just baffeled that so many people think there is some way to circumvent calling it theft. I know plenty of lawyers, and they will tell you both that it is a) copyright infringement, and b) petty theft.

A lawyer that says to you that making a copy of the disc that a game came on is petty theft should be removed from the bar.

Goronmon

07-27-2006, 10:01 AM

It's a theft of intellectual property though.When you can show me how to reach into someone's brain and steal their "intellectual property" I'll agree with you.

Rifter

07-27-2006, 10:04 AM

Remember back in the "old days" when stores would get "rental copies" of movies 6 months before being released for consumers? It used to be studios looked at movie sales as a little addtional money to be made, not much more. Now, many studios look at the theatrical release as the advertisment to get people to buy DVDs. :-) How things change.

As for Stealing vs Copyright infringement... that is a VERY technical view, but yes they are different.... though, in the end, it is the same. The BIGGEST difference between Stealing and CI, is that with Stealing, you have to reimburse the price of the product, and maybe a bit more for time, court costs, etc. For CI, they kind of bend you over, and have their way with you. (I think they can nail for for $250k, or some outrageous number, if it is CI, vs stealing).

So, steal a game from a store, get fined like $100. Download a copy of that game online, and be liable for fines up to $250,000.

I still think it is an economics issue. Because games are not NEEDED and they cost quite a bit of money, they will be pirated. That is the nature of the beast. I am still thinking that the more they lower the price of the game, the more sales they would have, and possibly less piracy, but that is just me. You can't stop piracy, and you REALLY have to be careful about screwing your paying customers. I like to go to LAN parties, and I can not tell you the number of times that me or a friend has forgotten a CD, or left our manuals at home, with the keys on them... on a night that the game got corrupted and we needed to reinstall.

I can't believe that someone would pirate a game, and call tech support, though. THOSE people are freaking stupid, and deserve what they get.

Wyrm

07-27-2006, 10:06 AM

Regardless of whether is costs 5 times the price as normal... it's still going to end up in hundreds of hands, and none of that money is going to be seen by the publisher. The point still stands.

If a VHS costs 5 times as much, and they sell (for a major release) 50 copies to the video store, that's roughly 3,500 for that movie just to the publisher (and that's a generously low number). That's just from one video store. Think about how many there are. They ARE making money off rentals, or they wouldn't sell the movies to the stores.

Plus, they dont have to worry about it with DVDs because they are priced competitively such that DVD sales have actually out performed rentals by a long shot.

captainstrombosis

07-27-2006, 10:09 AM

I can't believe that someone would pirate a game, and call tech support, though. THOSE people are freaking stupid, and deserve what they get.

I honestly belive that you should be arrested for this. The legal punishment should be 50 jabs to the nads with a cattleprod. Inflict pain and have the bonus of possibly hindering their reproduction!

harbo

07-27-2006, 10:09 AM

Regardless of whether is costs 5 times the price as normal... it's still going to end up in hundreds of hands, and none of that money is going to be seen by the publisher. The point still stands.

A VHS tape isn't going to get rented hundreds of times, or if it is, the multiplier is a lot higher, not to mention that by the time it's past, say, 20 it'll be in the bargain bin. 20 rentals take 1-2 months, most movies aren't exactly in high demand after that. DVDs may be different, as they don't get worn so easily, but they also probably cost more.

Chameleo

07-27-2006, 10:10 AM

I can't believe that someone would pirate a game, and call tech support, though. THOSE people are freaking stupid, and deserve what they get.

amen to that.

UnderHero5

07-27-2006, 10:12 AM

If a VHS costs 5 times as much, and they sell (for a major release) 50 copies to the video store, that's roughly 3,500 for that movie just to the publisher (and that's a generously low number). That's just from one video store. Think about how many there are. They ARE making money off rentals, or they wouldn't sell the movies to the stores.

Plus, they dont have to worry about it with DVDs because they are priced competitively such that DVD sales have actually out performed rentals by a long shot.
Well, maybe the video stores around you get 50 copies of each movie, but around here you're lucky if they have 10 of the most popular movies. Most they will only have 2 or 3. And those 2 or 3 movies will get rented out possibly a hundred times.

Not to mention I've seen no proof that they even pay 5x the amount for their movies other than some one saying it. And a strangers word on the internet means very little to me.
I think you got my point anyway, why are people even arguing this? And why are we talking about VHS tapes?

Sure they are making money off rentals, but are they making as much as they would if EVERY person renting would have bought it? No. That's my point. They are losing "potential" money with rentals, just as they are losing "potential" money with piracy. Do you understand? Or are you just going to shout "IT'S STEALING!" again?

harbo

07-27-2006, 10:15 AM

As for Stealing vs Copyright infringement... that is a VERY technical view, but yes they are different.... though, in the end, it is the same. The BIGGEST difference between Stealing and CI, is that with Stealing, you have to reimburse the price of the product, and maybe a bit more for time, court costs, etc. For CI, they kind of bend you over, and have their way with you. (I think they can nail for for $250k, or some outrageous number, if it is CI, vs stealing).

Unfortunately, when we use words, the whole point is to make a case - and then there's nothing to it but technicalities. And I'd say theft and copyright infringement are not the same in just about any way, not even morally.

harbo

07-27-2006, 10:22 AM

Not to mention I've seen no proof that they even pay 5x the amount for their movies other than some one saying it. And a strangers word on the internet means very little to me.

Go ask the manager at the local rental, if you're polite about it, he might even answer.

Sure they are making money off rentals, but are they making as much as they would if EVERY person renting would have bought it? No. That's my point. They are losing "potential" money with rentals, just as they are losing "potential" money with piracy. Do you understand? Or are you just going to shout "IT'S STEALING!" again?

The distributors employ people whose job is to calculate the optimal price point for the rentals, so they lose as little as possible - they almost certainly make money by doing it instead of just offering the consumer copies. If they didn't, wouldn't they stop doing it?

UnderHero5

07-27-2006, 10:34 AM

Go ask the manager at the local rental, if you're polite about it, he might even answer.

The distributors employ people whose job is to calculate the optimal price point for the rentals, so they lose as little as possible - they almost certainly make money by doing it instead of just offering the consumer copies. If they didn't, wouldn't they stop doing it?
If the video stores weren't making money renting these out, then why would THEY do it?
What's to stop one of the many mom and pop video stores around my area from going to WalMart and buying their new releases at retail price then renting them out?

Not all video stores are huge chain stores like Blockbuster. If you don't live in a big city, there are usually tons of indepentendly owned video stores, and I'm not sure I'm willing to believe they pay thousands of dollars to these distributors for new releases. I can think of at least 5 small video stores within 20 miles of my house. I've got one Blockbuster within that distance.

Edit: I think I should stop with this particular arguement though, as I don't know enough on the subject to continue.

harbo

07-27-2006, 11:18 AM

If the video stores weren't making money renting these out, then why would THEY do it?

I didn't say they weren't making money. The arrangement is exactly the same as with any other wholesale-retail business, except here the wholesaler has a monopoly by law.

What's to stop one of the many mom and pop video stores around my area from going to WalMart and buying their new releases at retail price then renting them out?

The law. Copyright means that you don't only get to say who can make a copy, but who gets to do what with the copy you've given them. In this particular case, the consumer copies are licensed only for personal, non-profit use.

Heretic Machine

07-27-2006, 01:14 PM

So, steal a game from a store, get fined like $100. Download a copy of that game online, and be liable for fines up to $250,000.

Unless (like most pirates) you are judgement-proof. Debtors' prisons have been outlawed for quite some time, and if you make so little money that you can't afford to buy games and such, chances are good that you are judgement-proof. I'm not sure of the legal specifics, but that is what I have heard. Stealing, of course, is different because it is a judicial matter, rather than a civil issue like copyright infringment.

Pretzel

07-27-2006, 09:37 PM

yet the good games are still successfull and the gaming industry is healthy.

the cream rises to the top; the ones who deserve it get whats coming to them (i.e. blizzard) and the ones who don't, miss out.

don't ya love capitalism?

So as long as an industry is successful, stealing from them is ok? "Hey, Exxon is making lots of loot, let's rip off Bob's locally owned gas station."

Don't ya love nihilism?

Seriously, though--You seem to have a complete lack of empathy or conscience. As long as you can get away with something, you seem to feel it's ok for you to do it.

Pretzel

07-27-2006, 10:23 PM

You seriously need to use that brain of yours a little more before you post. What if people have no choice in broadband connection? (and no, 56k isn't a viable alternative anymore) At home, my parents have a choice between a small DSL provider or no broadband internet. Where exactly are they supposed to go for internet if they leave that provider?

Ok, I'll use my brain this time. Let's take a quick look at what I was replying to, first:

As for Russell's strategy of dealing with pirates... fuck him. Fuck him for supporting the greedy ISPs who have decided to sell a product they have no intention of delivering on. My ISP has gotten so stingy with their bandwidth that they have blocked off the port used for City of Heroes' patcher, and now I can never play it again. How good would it be for your business, Mike, if they blocked off the ports used by Steam?

Let's see....my brain is telling me that if I continued to pay an ISP for service that doesn't meet my needs, that ISP will have no incentive to actually change their service.

My brain is also telling me that paying an ISP is supporting the ISP and Mike Russell reporting pirates to their ISP is in no way supporting that ISP.

My brain thinks that anyone who blames Mike and not his ISP is kind of stupid. ;)

My whole point is that Perigon was directing his anger at someone who isn't even part of the equation. It's surprising how often you see people justifying piracy as some kind of form of revenge against corporations in general. It's not even revenge against a specific corporation. It's like "EA sold me a game that sucks, so now I'm going to rip off Activision". Or even "I think games are overpriced so I'm going to steal them, which is ok because they already make more money than I do".

Answer me this question. Is BitTorrent illegal?

No, of course not, which is why I wonder why the fuck you'd pay an ISP that prevents it if it's so important to you. My point was that you either talk to your ISP to get them to allow you to connect to the CoH servers, or you talk to NCSoft about getting patches another way. There's no reason they can't find some other way to deliver a patch to you.

If your ISP won't change, then send them a message by cancelling your service. If enough people do it, then they'll change their policy. Seriously.

Heretic Machine

07-28-2006, 10:54 AM

If your ISP won't change, then send them a message by cancelling your service.

...You really have no clue as to how little broadband is available in most areas, do you? It took years for them to finally allow me to get cable, I don't think there is even anyone trying to install DSL around here. I have the choice of this ISP, or dial-up. Switching to dial-up doesn't fix any of the problems, and it makes everything else worse.

Savok

07-28-2006, 12:18 PM

I remember waiting years and years for it here myself, then we had a 500Mb limit on it for years after that, it eventually increased to an amazing 3Gb, that's mind blowing right there, thought I'd fucking died and gone to heaven. These days it goes all the way up to 20Gb, though you'll be paying well over $100US a month for it, and that's not even at 1500k, we're talking 512k here.

Pretzel

07-28-2006, 01:18 PM

...You really have no clue as to how little broadband is available in most areas, do you? It took years for them to finally allow me to get cable, I don't think there is even anyone trying to install DSL around here. I have the choice of this ISP, or dial-up. Switching to dial-up doesn't fix any of the problems, and it makes everything else worse.

Actually, I do. I lived in a new development that didn't have broadband for years. When it was finally offered by a cable company, it was fairly expensive and not very high-speed. People in the area constantly complained, but the cable company never offered anything else because they had no competition (there was some wierd legal tie-up preventing DSL from being installed in the area).

Some of my neighbors eventually got sick of it, and created a kind of co-op wireless broadband provider. When people started leaving the cable provider's ISP, they mysteriously lowered rates and raised the bandwidth. I talked with one of the contractors who did installations for the cable company and he said they changed their policy because people were leaving (he was actually quite depressed about how he mainly was doing disconnects lately). Companies do pay attention to market conditions, but only if their customers hold them accountable. You obviously have a choice (dial-up), but are unwilling to use it, so you continue to reward a company that doesn't provide the quality of service you want. Besides dialup, you could also go with ISDN or a partial T1.

And again, how this justifies your anger against Mike Russel is beyond me. You say he supports the ISP by reporting pirates, yet if anything, they're hurt by that since they'd lose a customer. You, on the other hand, pay them for faulty service.

bean19

07-28-2006, 04:36 PM

Pretzel - Oh telecommunication companies are effective monopolies with very small overheads that effectively steal from people.

In most countries, internet is incredibly high-speed and incredibly inexpensive because of government intervention keeping companies from fleecing people. However, in the United States, bilking the consumer for whatever he will pay and providing the least amount of service and expense in exchange is business as usual. To provide excellent services at low rates without a competitor is un-American. :)

Look at our petroleum industry. . . or honestly, pretty much every industry. We live in an odd society and economy where very smart people carefully plan how to maximize profits. They spend their entire lives doing so - often at the expense of progress, quality of life of their consumers, and the overall economy. Their actions often lead to people losing their jobs and living in poverty.

Then again, there are problems that occur when governments tamper with capitalism too. They are usually too heavy-handed and either too breif in their remedy, or they are unable to change effectively as the problems improve and we end up with government subsidies that are not needed but that we can't get rid of because of voter pressure.

I've thought about running for public office before. . . try to make things right, but I have to think that most of our Congressman were once intelligent people who cared about their voters. I don't want whatever has happened to them to happen to me.

Pretzel

07-28-2006, 05:06 PM

I've thought about running for public office before. . . try to make things right, but I have to think that most of our Congressman were once intelligent people who cared about their voters. I don't want whatever has happened to them to happen to me.

That reminds me of a story someone told me once about some guy who was frustrated with his representatives because they said they never actually read the bills they vote for because they were too complex. He ran for office himself on the platform that he would read and understand any bill he voted on. He was elected and after a year someone checked up on him to see if he kept his promise. He heaved a tired sigh and told the person that he'd like to, but they were so complex that he couldn't possibly read them.