Dead Rising Under Scrutiny in Germany

[bapenguin]

Poor poor Germany. You unlucky folks won't get to kills thousands of hordes of Zombies with a coffee dish in Dead Rising. Your great powerful and all knowing ratings commission has banned (http://xbox360.qj.net/Dead-Rising-Banned-in-Germany/pg/49/aid/58947) the game in Germany.

The sensational zombie-slasher from Capcom for the Xbox 360, Dead Rising, will not appear in Germany. Apparently the USK, the people who test the appropriateness of games, didn't like the way you can hack, slash, kill and maim the zombies. This is especially odd because a number of years ago the same group did approve the infamous game Carmageddon, in which you had to drive over people for points (although human pedestrians were replaced by zombies in the German version).
That's pretty frickin lame. It's violence against ZOMBIES. How else are we going to train people against the impending zombie invasion? Germany is done for!

[Reanimated]

Ah the intellectual freedoms of Europe... :rolleyes:

[Morratut]

It is a shame that it's banned in Germany.

I prefer this though to the game getting censored like Ninja Gaiden did on it's initial euro release. All because of the German USK. I'm glad the UK/Euro release of Dead Rising is intact :D

[Evil Avatar]

I was trapped in a mall with zombies and all I got was a lousy T-shirt. ;)

[Savok]

Germany has land borders with plenty of countries that speak German (Hitler's initial excuse for invading everyone, to unite the German speaking people), easy to get around and leaves the game intact for PAL, excellent.

You have to wonder about the Germans sometimes, paranoid that any sort of violent imagery will spark their need to take over Europe again or something. Well as an insane German myself, I have to say it'd be for the best, better then the French doing it.

[shnastybiznastic]

America may have it's problems, but at least it's culture isn't still reeling from attempting to take over the world (overtly). :p

[Karragasch]

Its the norm for Germany, the Rating system over here focuses very strong on violence. Especially if its inflicted upon very human-like enemies with some very brutal/gory/and just plain sick weaponry. On the other side, we get more dirty sex in our games. (You know, gothic 2 was Censored in the states.)

Luckily, Germany isnt exactly "here" since i´m from Switzerland, so I´ve got a chance to get ahold of the first interesting xbox 360 game and finally find an excuse to buy the damn system. (and even if, the germans just buy their banned games in Switzerland or Austria.)

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

Id prefer violence censorship over taking out a nipple. Fucking ass backwards America.

[Heretic Machine]

A real gamer would move out of Europe anyway, just because of the release dates and insane pricing :p

[Karragasch]

A real gamer would move out of Europe anyway, just because of the release dates and insane pricing
I´m just a Porn fan with gaming as second hobby. I´m stayin here.

[HumpYourWay]

Germany has land borders with plenty of countries that speak German (Hitler's initial excuse for invading everyone, to unite the German speaking people), easy to get around and leaves the game intact for PAL, excellent.

LOL I knew it. Whenever the word germany is in a thread title it just takes about four posts till the word "Hitler" has to appear.... how lame

[Housemixer]

Luckily, Germany isnt exactly "here" since i´m from Switzerland, so I´ve got a chance to get ahold of the first interesting xbox 360 game and finally find an excuse to buy the damn system. (and even if, the germans just buy their banned games in Switzerland or Austria.)

QFT

I'll simply order it from austria shipping is about the same, no problem here.
Although I would have preferred a 360+Dead Rising bundle, meh you can't have everything ;)


There's just one strange thing about this decision. About 1 or 2 years ago this censorship thing was reorganized so that games couldn't really be banned anymore but simply rated +18 and any game with this rating wasn't allowed any kind of advertisement in the public (billboards, magazines etc). The advantage of this was that everbody over 18 could still buy these games legally (whereas before that it was illegal to buy or sell banned games).

[Roc Ingersol]

It's Europe. Importing it is a non-issue.

It'll take all of an hour to cross a border and pick up a copy.

[swillw]

That clown screenshot scares me more than zombies - ahhhh!

Buy a few copies, put them on Ebay and then sell them to the Germans for double - no offence.

[DaedalusFolly]

... you can hack, slash, kill and maim the zombies.

Reading that just makes me want to play the game even more.

[jacktion]

What if Germany is right and violence is bad for us?

[SexualChoc]

They get it so hard. I mean Resident Evil 4 was stripped away to the bare essentials in Germany. Still, at least the UK is still getting it.

[Roc Ingersol]

Then there'd have been a huge upswing in violent crime by now.

[AniAko]

That's pretty frickin lame. It's violence against ZOMBIES. How else are we going to train people against the impending zombie invasion? Germany is done for!

Zombies will prevail as the superior race. I've never played a Halo2 Zombie match where the humans ever won ;)

Interesting move on Germany. You can pay for sex, but not for a zombie training game

[HumpYourWay]

Interesting move on Germany. You can pay for sex, but not for a zombie training game

As opposed to usa where you can pay for sex and violence, wow.

[bean19]

I'm not surprised really. After all, Hitler was a conservative. Fascism is what you get in a country when conservatives gain and hold power for an extended period of time.

[bean19]

LOL I knew it. Whenever the word germany is in a thread title it just takes about four posts till the word "Hitler" has to appear.... how lame

And yet, in your example, Hitler was used as a historical allusion to make the fact that Germany is surrounded by other German speaking nations more interesting instead of as a tool to compare someon's behavior to Hitler's. . . so you are kind of a jackass for not understanding nuance. Nice.

[Savok]

LOL I knew it. Whenever the word germany is in a thread title it just takes about four posts till the word "Hitler" has to appear.... how lame
Trivia, numbnuts, and proof that language won't be an issue to the ignorant who think Americans speak "American".

[mondain98]

"I was in the war!!"

Anyone?

[EvilBob46]

Read some of the comments from the article's comment section:


hail hail

aah Germany, still governed by nazis after all this time. for shame!



Holocost happened without any games influence, So either the cencors think this kind of material will bring out the worst in one of the historically most savage peoples. Or they have had bratvurst too many


Some people in Germany belive the Holocaust never happened!

That in itself just explains the type of superficial reasoning some politicians can have.


Uh-huh.

I'm not surprised really. After all, Hitler was a conservative. Fascism is what you get in a country when conservatives gain and hold power for an extended period of time.

Germany is not exactly an extremely conservative country.

[Heretic Machine]

I´m just a Porn fan with gaming as second hobby. I´m stayin here.

We have the same internet that you do... for now.

[bean19]

EvilBob - While they are ineloquent, there is truth in the fact that conservativism is fascism in it's adolescence. Their culture certainly isn't fascist anymore, but they still have the root condition and people shouldn't be surprised by it.

Just to be fair (and not to just pick on the conservatives), libertarianism taken to extremes is anarchy and liberalism taken to extremes is communism.

[Captain Awesome]

Oh Germany (http://youtube.com/watch?v=xzkhgeftduw). You and your silly myopic ways.

[Housemixer]

Sometimes this germany - nazi thing gets totally out of hand. I mean it was over 60 years ago, most people that were somehow involved are either dead, fled to south america or live in retirement homes. Germany is about the only country where patriotism is still feared because other countries could see this as a new sign of facism/nazicism (does that word even exist?)....absolutely ridiculous. Young people are pissed about this because they have nothing to do with what was done in the past (nor their parents).
Ah well the joy of stereotypes...

[analog]

Just clear up some confusion, Dead Rising has not been "banned". If you're 18 years old you can still buy the game, you can still own and play it and you can still sell the game in Germany

There are some restrictions on advertising and selling the game however. These restrictions (among other things you can't put the game on store shelves) usually mean that games with a certification like Dead Rising (which are very rare) don't sell very well in Germany.

This again leads most publishers to simply skip publishing the game in Germany, which may lead to the illusion that the game has been "banned", because you can't buy it at you typical big electronics store or ebgames. That's a publisher choice however and not the governments fault. (Though the restrictions are obviously designed to discourage the publishing of these games in Germany.)

In the end all this means is that you have to import the game or ask your local game store to do that for you. No big deal, everyone relax. Freedom says hi and has asked me to tell you that she's doing just fine in Germany.

[cppcrusader]

How else are we going to train people against the impending zombie invasion? Germany is done for![/i]

What if that's their plan though? Obviously an unprepared populous will undoubtedly end up becoming zombies themselves. Then the Germans will have created a massive army of zombies. Its all a plot for world domination!

[AniAko]

EvilBob - While they are ineloquent, there is truth in the fact that conservativism is fascism in it's adolescence. Their culture certainly isn't fascist anymore, but they still have the root condition and people shouldn't be surprised by it.

Just to be fair (and not to just pick on the conservatives), libertarianism taken to extremes is anarchy and liberalism taken to extremes is communism.

??? I have to say I totally disagree. Fascism may be the bastardized child of conservatism, but conservatism IS NOT fascism at an early stage. Just the same, liberalism anarchism, libertarianism, and communism lend similar philosophies to one another, although none of these trains of thought are infant forms of another. All together they are in fact 6 distinct totally different philosophies that are comprised of basic human desires and needs developed over time.

Take conservatism and fascism. Conservatism is practiced through channels of gradual, but unified, progression. Fascism is practiced by exercising total control of society, whether permitted or forced. The two share a common body of power, but one heeds to society and one society heeds to.

Enforcing any ideology requires a governing body whose power exceeds that of society’s, even anarchy. To enforce deregulation, you need a system in place to ensure a body doesn’t rise to take control. This system needs to be governed by someone for it to work.

While the concept of liberally fascist regimes aren’t worldly popular or practical, they aren’t impossible. Certainly conservatism couldn’t pave a road to it.

[fitbabits]

And all because the lady loves Milk Tray.

[Captain Awesome]

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/6373/videogamespt7.jpg

[HonestIago]

It is really interesting to see how a banned video game can spark a discussion about patriotism and other political ideologies.
To give it my two cents - you can promote any kind of ideology to the right (no, not meant as a political direction!) kind of people. A mass is always susceptible to the easy way out that simply does not exist.

But trust me on this - if there is one country that is safe from revolution, it is over here in Germany. It would take such an amount of bureaucratic idiocy to get all the permits and forms to start a revolution that it would die before the last sheet was signed ;)

And please, do not blame Germany for Hitler - he was an Austrian painter with his color of preference, brown.

[Savok]

Just clear up some confusion, Dead Rising has not been "banned". If you're 18 years old you can still buy the game, you can still own and play it and you can still sell the game in Germany

There are some restrictions on advertising and selling the game however. These restrictions (among other things you can't put the game on store shelves) usually mean that games with a certification like Dead Rising (which are very rare) don't sell very well in Germany.

This again leads most publishers to simply skip publishing the game in Germany, which may lead to the illusion that the game has been "banned", because you can't buy it at you typical big electronics store or ebgames. That's a publisher choice however and not the governments fault. (Though the restrictions are obviously designed to discourage the publishing of these games in Germany.)

In the end all this means is that you have to import the game or ask your local game store to do that for you. No big deal, everyone relax. Freedom says hi and has asked me to tell you that she's doing just fine in Germany.
Well there we go.

[bean19]

Take conservatism and fascism. Conservatism is practiced through channels of gradual, but unified, progression. Fascism is practiced by exercising total control of society, whether permitted or forced. The two share a common body of power, but one heeds to society and one society heeds to.

Study your history and/or cultural anthropology. All fascist states are built upon a conservative (usually religious conservativism) movement. Likewise, communism is first brought about by strongly liberal governments. It's an entire chapter in my anthropology course, but if you don't trust that, simply look at the history of any fascist or communist government.

That's one of the reasons that non-politicals are scared of the Bush administration. . . Patriot Act, wire-tapping, government endorsed torture, and the strengthening of the exective branches powers due to the weakness of the checks and balances upon the executive branch. These are all signs of a conservative government evolving into a fascist government.

Germany didn't just wake up and decide to have a fascist, genocidal government. It happened in stages.

As an aside, anarchy honestly exists so rarely that it is a bit of an aberration and tends to be the vaccum state between other governments, but in those rare occassions when it has been chosen, libertarianism was the infant stage of it (and really the end stage too, as even in chosen "anarchies" that can be found in various tribes, there are certain cultural laws enforced by the tribe as a whole even if there is no set governing body). So really, libertarianism/anarchy is a bad example.

[Sapheriel]

there is another blatant inaccuracy in the source article. the german version of carmageddon did not contain zombies instead of humans. that was the UK version. the german version had robots.

[Savok]

It happened because post-WW1 Germany was an economic mess and the Nazis managed to get themselves into power by using the 8000 other political parties Germany had at the time.

[Inglorion]

I wish people would stop talking about Europe as if it was a country.

I feel sorry for Germans who have to endure the fascists who decides these kinds of things, however.

[bean19]

It happened because post-WW1 Germany was an economic mess and the Nazis managed to get themselves into power by using the 8000 other political parties Germany had at the time.

Through a conservative movement that focused on patriotism, family values, and shock and awe tactics (fear).

[Captain Awesome]

there is another blatant inaccuracy in the source article. the german version of carmageddon did not contain zombies instead of humans. that was the UK version. the german version had robots.


hahaha, I found this funny :p

[Savok]

I wish people would stop talking about Europe as if it was a country.

I feel sorry for Germans who have to endure the fascists who decides these kinds of things, however.
Well that's the idea of EU isn't it, to be treated as a whole? For a thousand years European countries have been trying to undermine each other, this is just the latest stakes increase, whoever controls the EU controls Europe, whole bloody point of the thing.

[AniAko]

Study your history and/or cultural anthropology. All fascist states are built upon a conservative (usually religious conservativism) movement. Likewise, communism is first brought about by strongly liberal governments. It's an entire chapter in my anthropology course, but if you don't trust that, simply look at the history of any fascist or communist government.

I never said that it was impossible for conservatism to lead to fascism. You're absolutely right that history shows that these governments were introduced by other already established governments, hence the ideas they lend to one another.

What I specifically meant was conservatism doesn't lead to fascism. The connection between the two is a strong correlation, but it's incorrect to think that conservative thoughts pave a path directly to fascism. Many conservative societies exist nowhere near the line that distinguishes it from fascist rule. Like I said it is possible for a liberally governing body to adopt fascist methodologies, though one does not cause the other.

That's one of the reasons that non-politicals are scared of the Bush administration. . . Patriot Act, wire-tapping, government endorsed torture, and the strengthening of the exective branches powers due to the weakness of the checks and balances upon the executive branch. These are all signs of a conservative government evolving into a fascist government.

I agree the Bush administration has over stepped its bounds on many fronts, but signs of a government evolving into a fascist one? They may be adopting fascist ideas, but then again, the US is comprised of ideas and methodologies from many philosophies. That’s how the country works. We’re flexible enough to bend far one way, then the other on an issue by issue basis. It uses the tools it needs to get the job done. I’m not justifying their actions in this case, but the spirit behind their actions definitely isn’t of dictatorial interests. He’s only president for a few more years, not the road to a dictatorship

As an aside, anarchy honestly exists so rarely that it is a bit of an aberration and tends to be the vaccum state between other governments, but in those rare occassions when it has been chosen, libertarianism was the infant stage of it (and really the end stage too, as even in chosen "anarchies" that can be found in various tribes, there are certain cultural laws enforced by the tribe as a whole even if there is no set governing body). So really, libertarianism/anarchy is a bad example.

I agree to anarchy’s transitional presence, though true anarchy is rarely achieved through this manner. There is typically order, though lax and sparse. Sovereign states rarely shutdown absolutely during these times. In these situations, society limps along and naturally starts growing intermediate governing bodies (militias) until the state re-establishes itself.

[bean19]

What I specifically meant was conservatism doesn't lead to fascism. The connection between the two is a strong correlation, but it's incorrect to think that conservative thoughts pave a path directly to fascism. Many conservative societies exist nowhere near the line that distinguishes it from fascist rule.

Totally true. While there is a strong correlation between the two, that doesn't mean that all conservative governments become fascist. I'm not sure what the spark is between simply being conservative, but I suspect that it has to do with the way that conservative governments feel that it is okay to legislate morality. They get into the practice of inflicting their viewpoint on others and this leads to feeling that this type of governance is okay. Add in a dash of greed and corruption and lots of time for things to slowly degrade, and voila.

I agree the Bush administration has over stepped its bounds on many fronts, but signs of a government evolving into a fascist one? They may be adopting fascist ideas, but then again, the US is comprised of ideas and methodologies from many philosophies. That’s how the country works. We’re flexible enough to bend far one way, then the other on an issue by issue basis.

Well, it's a gradual process. . . that's what people are worried about. The U.S. has had conservative setbacks throughout it's history that were eventually repealed. . . abolition of alcohol and abortion, segregation, various restrictions of franchise to American citizens.

The four biggest conservative vs. liberal issues in the United States right now are: abortion, equal rights for homosexuals, foreign policy (diplomancy vs. aggression (torture)), and rights of privacy vs. public safety.

As a nation, we have always been religious conservative and generally we lag behind other democratic free countries in our policy, but as time marches on and people become more educated and freedom-loving, we generally adopt those liberal policies that are more humane and/or freedom loving.

So many educated people aren't super alarmed by the conservative plunge the Bush administration has taken as those issues are so core to the U.S. that they will eventually change along with public opinion.

The alarms that people are sounding are usually directed at how the Republican party seems to be a puppet for their big industry contributors with legislation that actually grants them tax relief in a year when they are gouging consumers with inflated gas prices that are a result of price-setting in the petroleum industry. . . and at the jerry-mandering that has taken place (for both Republicans and Democrats) in order to keep seats in the House and Senate firmly in the control of their respective parties. . . but that is going really off subject.

[Kagger]

The four biggest conservative vs. liberal issues in the United States right now are: abortion, equal rights for homosexuals, foreign policy (diplomancy vs. aggression (torture)), and rights of privacy vs. public safety.

As a nation, we have always been religious conservative and generally we lag behind other democratic free countries in our policy, but as time marches on and people become more educated and freedom-loving, we generally adopt those liberal policies that are more humane and/or freedom loving.


Since when has the slaughtering of the unborn been humane?

[analog]

Why has nobody changed the headline or content of this article? Dead Rising has not been banned in Germany and the headline still says "DR banned in Germany". If Eurogamer can admit their mistake, you can, too! Give it a try, it's fun for the whole family!

[Royal Fool]

Further clarification:

The German version had robots, not zombies. Driving over them would result in nuts and bolts flying across the screen. It was the UK version that had zombies and green blood. Fundamental difference.

So in conclusion, Germany doesn't like zombies.

EDIT: Whoops, looks like Sapheriel was quicker than me. Oh well.

[Royal Fool]

The four biggest conservative vs. liberal issues in the United States right now are: abortion, equal rights for homosexuals, foreign policy (diplomancy vs. aggression (torture)), and rights of privacy vs. public safety.

As a nation, we have always been religious conservative and generally we lag behind other democratic free countries in our policy, but as time marches on and people become more educated and freedom-loving, we generally adopt those liberal policies that are more humane and/or freedom loving.
Don't forget the death penalty. That sure is humane.

[AniAko]

bean19 -

Heh, we are way off topic anyways :) I try not to ponder on the Bush administration too much. I only hope he doesn’t leave this country on life support when his successor takes his place. I can relate to the conservative momentum the administration has acquired. I have found a portion of it appropriate recourse, but failing miserably due to poor implementation. All we’ve done is show the world the guy running our country doesn’t hold our best interests, and when he does, he fails at making them a reality.

[Savok]

Since when has the slaughtering of the unborn been humane?
When its mother is a crack addicted hooker that after neglecting her crack addict baby goes and ODs leaving the pimp to clean up the mess. He'll likely not give two shits about the kids and leave it a dumpster to freeze/starve to death overnight.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

From Dead Rising being "banned" in Germany to crack babies...no wonder I can't get away from this website.

[01010]

Since when has the slaughtering of the unborn been humane?


Since about the point humanity realised that it's society is a vast pit of shit and it's a far nicer option to kill people before they grow up to realise it.

[analog]

Thanks for changing the headline. Now how about changing the actual text, too? :)

[Kagger]

When its mother is a crack addicted hooker that after neglecting her crack addict baby goes and ODs leaving the pimp to clean up the mess. He'll likely not give two shits about the kids and leave it a dumpster to freeze/starve to death overnight.

So killing it outright by tearing it limb by limb is the way to go? Even if he/she dies, it had a chance to live. The baby is a person, and his/her life should be respected.



Edit: I must say...I'm quite pleased my 1000th post was this one....because I am extremely Pro-Life.

[Savok]

So killing it outright by tearing it limb by limb is the way to go? Even if he/she dies, it had a chance to live. The baby is a person, and his/her life should be respected.



Edit: I must say...I'm quite pleased my 1000th post was this one....because I am extremely Pro-Life.
A person that will endure horrible suffering for a few weeks then die.

That what I love about Pro-Life people, they just want the babies born, after that who cares. A lot of the far right people don't want welfare (given out far too freely in Australia) but they want you to carry your child full term as well, can't have it both ways.

[bean19]

Since when has the slaughtering of the unborn been humane?

Heh. Not even going to touch that. If you've read anything at all about this subject, then you know both sides of the issue. . . but obviously only agree with the conservative one.

Edit: Actually, I got further in the thread and it seems that a lot of people DON'T know the pro-choice point of view.

Abortion is an ugly, repugnant practice. People who believe in a women's right to choose do not think abortion is okay as a means of birth control. Instead, they believe that the right to choose is the better of two bad choices: Whether to allow women to abort pregancies through the guidance of their doctors who are obligated under the hypocratic oath to counsel them against the abortion and help them with the post-abortion depression, or to allow women to do so through the means of back-alley abortions that used to be extremely dangerous, but are today as easy as picking up the right mix of over-the-counter drugs.

The irony of the whole situation now is that if they were to make abortions illegal, many people believe that the number of abortions would increase due to the fact that the more easy and less expensive method of aborting from home would become general knowledge.

Kagger - Also, aren't all late term abortions like the ones you mention illegal now? In any case, those are also dramatized by rabid pro-life people who sensationalize the issue instead of discussing it. Very Machiavellian and not to be trusted. In late-term abortions, the fetus is killed chemically first before it is mutilated (for removal). Still disgusting and horrid, but not a lie.

Btw, I am not pro-choice or pro-life. . . honestly, I oscillate between both sides so often I hate to talk about it due to my lack of conviction. The position I'm in right now is pro-choice. . . but only because I think making abortion illegal would lead to more total abortions.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

So killing it outright by tearing it limb by limb is the way to go? Even if he/she dies, it had a chance to live. The baby is a person, and his/her life should be respected.


Wow, save it for drama class. Tearing it limb by limb? What the fuck kind of abortion are you talking about? Most aborted fetuses (FETUS != baby) don't even have limbs, let alone much of anything else.

I'm really surprised by Savok's views on this. I guess I should never assume one's views based upon his or her political affiliations. His point about abortion and welfare is right on the mark. Here's another - how many of these right-wing pro-lifers adopt all those unwanted children?

[Savok]

As I've said before Gnome, I'm reality based in my views, reality just happen to fall to the right most of the time. Same with gay marrige, just let them be wed, jesus. Don't talk to me about "sanctity" of marrige either, Hollywood fucked that decades ago. Hell, might get more gay couples adopting if they're married, wouldn't need so many damn abortions as expecting women might be willing to trust in the foster system enough to have the kid.

See, everyone wins.

[bean19]

As I've said before Gnome, I'm reality based in my views, reality just happen to fall to the right most of the time. Same with gay marrige, just let them be wed, jesus. Don't talk to me about "sanctity" of marrige either, Hollywood fucked that decades ago. Hell, might get more gay couples adopting if they're married, wouldn't need so many damn abortions as expecting women might be willing to trust in the foster system enough to have the kid.

See, everyone wins.

Huh? You seem to fall to the left more often actually according to your examples.

Left = liberal
Right = conservative

[AniAko]

May I suggest a reading for you pro-life touting force-feeders?
Where Have All the Criminals Gone? (http://www.freakonomics.com/ch4.php)

This is an excerpt from the critically acclaimed book Freakonomics. This article is under extreme fire because Steve Levitt argues a fantastically radical, but valid point.

If the simple answers were so simple, complex relations such as the rise of legal abortions leading to a decrease in crime wouldn't exist. Sorry to say it Pro-lifers, but a retraction in this decision could mean your children having to live more dangerous lives.

(http://www.freakonomics.com/ch4.php)

[Savok]

Huh? You seem to fall to the left more often actually according to your examples.

Left = liberal
Right = conservative
Yes if you ignore my views on economics, foreign policy, welfare, education, health care, governments staying the fuck out of our lives.

Though an important battlefield for civil rights, there are larger things afoot then two hot lesbians kissing under a wedding arch.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

As I've said before Gnome, I'm reality based in my views, reality just happen to fall to the right most of the time. Same with gay marrige, just let them be wed, jesus. Don't talk to me about "sanctity" of marrige either, Hollywood fucked that decades ago. Hell, might get more gay couples adopting if they're married, wouldn't need so many damn abortions as expecting women might be willing to trust in the foster system enough to have the kid.

See, everyone wins.


More good points. I'm honestly sorry that I pigeonholed you in the past. It goes to show that not everything is so black and white. I consider myself to be very liberal but have conservative views as well - my liberal friends love to point this out to me and villify me for it sometimes, especially when drunk. :(

[Savok]

I say punch them, especially if they're those asshole "Kim Jong Il just needs America to give him a hug and stop being a bully" type assholes.

Behold, the left doing their job (http://eustonmanifesto.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=41).

[bean19]

Yes if you ignore my views on economics, foreign policy, welfare, education, health care, governments staying the fuck out of our lives.

Though an important battlefield for civil rights, there are larger things afoot then two hot lesbians kissing under a wedding arch.

So you support aggression over diplomacy, and are against spending on welfare, education, and health care?

As far as the government staying the fuck out of our lives, that's a libertarian core value, but it is definitely a more liberal than conservative value. . . (Patriot act, wire-tapping, etc.)

[Royal Fool]

...because I am extremely Pro-Life.

Oh, please. Everyone is "pro-life". It's called being human. Being against abortions is not "being pro-life".

[Savok]

Some people just need blowing up. Those asshole dictators, they love it when you talk to them, means you aren't removing them from power, so they just talk and talk and talk and posture and talk until they're good and ready to whatever they've been planning. Or their people rise up and slit their throats, wouldn't be the first time.

Education needs to be gutted and completely remade. Medicare in Australia is a useless parasite that's slowly killing us all. 12 hour waiting periods and no hospital beds, cancer treatments being delayed and completely useless staff since anyone with half a brain left years ago out of sheer frustration. Yes public heath care is AWESOME.

Welfare, you're black and are therefore unable to get a job, have some money, don't you feel good about yourself! Been getting pregnant to dead beats that leave after a week? Not to worry, the government is here to give you pat on the back and money to poorly raise your 8 children to their 8 different fathers, none of whom stuck around.

Welfare is state sponsored entropy.

[AniAko]

Some people just need blowing up. Those asshole dictators, they love it when you talk to them, means you aren't removing them from power, so they just talk and talk and talk and posture and talk until they're good and ready to whatever they've been planning. Or their people rise up and slit their throats, wouldn't be the first time.

In turn, I'll make sure if I meet anyone who is in aggressive opposition of your views to "blow you up", since you're condone such radical measures

Welfare, you're black and are therefore unable to get a job, have some money, don't you feel good about yourself! Been getting pregnant to dead beats that leave after a week? Not to worry, the government is here to give you pat on the back and money to poorly raise your 8 children to their 8 different fathers, none of whom stuck around.

Welfare is state sponsored entropy.

Spoken like a true bigot. Systems are put in place to secure stability. Of course there's going to be people who take advantage of it. That in itself is a check and balance. I love how people pull the race card, and the "single urban mother" card when they talk about welfare. It may very well be true that most of our free-loaders are blacks and single mothers, but I don't see anyone jazzing whitey for 90% of all insurance fraud, which I'm sure costs a comperable amount, not to mention its legality

[bean19]

We don't have government healthcare here in the United States, so if you are wealthy, you can have excellent healthcare with medical insurance that is expensive. However, if you are poor, you get minimal healthcare, and if you are ever truly sick, then you will live the rest of your life in debt as the medical industry is completely out-of-control absurdly expensive (largely due to a terrible insurance system we have where doctors do not actually get most of what they bill. . . thus they overcharge to overcome this).

As far as education, both Democrats and Republicans believe in educational reform in the United States. The difference between the two is in who gets the money. Liberals favor using federal dollars to assist poor communities that do not have as many local tax dollars to pay for education while conservatives favor ideas like "No Child Left Behind". . . this program tests all children and those schools that don't do well recieve less funding. Thus inner city schools that are already struggling do not recieve government aid.

In the United States, we spend about 10% of federal taxes on social programs. Much of this was due to Clinton's welfare reform in the early 90's when his administration worked to balance the budget. In the United States, it is now very difficult to get on our welfare program (Social Security is what we call it), and for those who have not reached retirement age and/or who are not permanently (medically) disabled, it only lasts for a few months. Additionally, all children after the second child no longer allow welfare mothers to gain larger checks. I'm pretty happy with this fairly moderate middle-of-the-road solution we have now. It has solved the problems of abuse in the program.

However, the problem that our senior citizens face is that they recieve very small Social Security checks but often have to pay extraordinary amounts for prescription medications. It is not unusual for a senior citizen here to spend 50% of their income on medical bills.

So our situation is different here in the United States. . . and I think on most of the issues that you are NOT liberal about, I'm also not liberal. . . but more of a moderate.

Destroying social programs or invading countries at the drop of the hat would be just as bad as spending far too much on social programs or always avoiding war despite provocation.

[PixelSamurai]

So... Exactly which violent video games did Hitler play? Or Mengele?

[Kagger]

Wow, save it for drama class. Tearing it limb by limb? What the fuck kind of abortion are you talking about? Most aborted fetuses (FETUS != baby) don't even have limbs, let alone much of anything else.

I'm really surprised by Savok's views on this. I guess I should never assume one's views based upon his or her political affiliations. His point about abortion and welfare is right on the mark. Here's another - how many of these right-wing pro-lifers adopt all those unwanted children?

What kind of abortion am I talking about? Yeah...the are different kinds. The one I'm talking about is called a Dilation and Evacuation Abortion. I have a diagram of it, and I can get a hold of photographs of it.


I'll be 18 come next election. I am pretty much a single issue voter when it comes to this subject.


A person that will endure horrible suffering for a few weeks then die.

That what I love about Pro-Life people, they just want the babies born, after that who cares. A lot of the far right people don't want welfare (given out far too freely in Australia) but they want you to carry your child full term as well, can't have it both ways.


I do care what happens afterwords. Adoption is still there. My mom lived in foster care when she was a child, and her foster mom is pretty much my grandmother. She could never have children of her own.

Yes, a baby may have problems if their mother did drugs, but that is no excuse for killing them. They might, they might not. What if a child just happens to be born with a disability completely unrelated to that?


I

[bean19]

Kagger - You didn't respond to my point. Do you still support illegalizing abortion even though it would mean that more women would likely learn the very easy and less expensive ways to abort a pregnancy and thus the number of abortions would most probably rise?

[Savok]

In turn, I'll make sure if I meet anyone who is in aggressive opposition of your views to "blow you up", since you're condone such radical measures
Nice kneejerk blanket statement, the opressed people of the world thank you.

Spoken like a true bigot. Systems are put in place to secure stability. Of course there's going to be people who take advantage of it. That in itself is a check and balance. I love how people pull the race card, and the "single urban mother" card when they talk about welfare. It may very well be true that most of our free-loaders are blacks and single mothers, but I don't see anyone jazzing whitey for 90% of all insurance fraud, which I'm sure costs a comperable amount, not to mention its legality
I'm the bigot? Lets see what the aboriginal communities are up to with welfare and aboriginal law... oh look, child and spousal abuse, and look, the left who supported the creation of this problem is now demanding we send in the army. Ask any Aboriginal leader and they'll tell you welfare is a cancer that's slowly killing their people.

I'm on disability myself (no, not a back problem, genetic problem) when I'm at Centrelink I actually SEE the stereotypes you seem to think are fantasy. These people are idiots, and they want government money to compensate the fact that they're idiots, worse yet we give it to them. I see the guys covered in tattoos who take their cheque and head to the bottle shop, I've seen the chain smoking mothers also with tattoos, screaming kids in tow, I've seen it all.

Bean, public health care means everyone suffers. Right now, I can't see my GP as often as I want, he's terrified that he'll be seen milking me for money, this is insane.

I must say I do like that no money with the second child thing, this country could seriously do with that.

[bean19]

Savok - It's no money AFTER the second child (not after one child as you imply) - which stops the problem of women who act like baby factories, but also serves the majority of impoverished women.

The problem that you run into if you stop paying welfare to mothers with multiple children is that in many cases they will not be able to care or provide for their children without the assistance and then the state must take the children away and spend twice as much on them to pay foster parents to keep them.

[Savok]

I could live with after two, that's the beauty of how the system is meant to work. Two sides argue, a comprimise is reached that no one is happy about, yet we can all live with. These days everything is out of whack though, to use Team America, too many pussies are full of shit and the dicks are just fucking everything in their absense.

And really, you keep having kids to different fathers who don't stick around, you're too stupid to raise children, just feeds that social entropy thing I mentioned earlier.

[Kagger]

Kagger - You didn't respond to my point. Do you still support illegalizing abortion even though it would mean that more women would likely learn the very easy and less expensive ways to abort a pregnancy and thus the number of abortions would most probably rise?

I suppor the illegalization of abortion. You are just predicting that aborition rates would rise. I think many people would be scared to get a back alley abortion. My opinions...yours.

[RestlessAvenger]

Since when has the slaughtering of the unborn been humane?
I would say right about the time it started being performed by actual doctors, instead of someone with a coat hanger?

[AniAko]

Ok Savok, let's try this again. I'll entertain the fact that my point may have been vague.

FIRST, you based your argument on a subset of people. You specifically mentioned the "black man" and the "single mother" who abuse welfare. That's a big no-no in an argument. It doesn't help support your point, and it makes your argument seem personal. (Hence the bigot comment) You have to remove yourself and your feelings; otherwise you'll just seem to be lashing out radically instead of formulating an argument. I mentioned insurance fraud as a contrast to your statement trying to paint a bigger picture. Whites abuse systems in place for helping those in need too.

Now that that's out of the way... My point is that you're pissed because people abuse welfare. That's very true, but you have to ask yourself the question, if welfare was gone would the people change? The answer can be found in the type of people who abuse welfare.

The people who abuse welfare are typically those same people who jump in line at an amusement park to "Join their friends ahead of you". I was subject to this last weekend as a matter of fact. They simply don't care what you think, or what you say. They feel they've beaten the system. In fact, they're so bold they'll attempt it even under a watchful eye. While standing in line for a roller coaster, two security guards were standing on risers who were EASILY able to see everyone, and catch any jumpers. Believe it or not they caught several different groups of people jumping by the time I reached the front of the line. The guards were in plain sight too. These people don't care what the repercussions are. It was worth trying to get what they wanted.

The people abusing welfare are taking what people are willing to give them. If you stopped welfare the end result wouldn’t be these people getting jobs, they’d turn to another handout. It could even introduce the possibility of higher crime rates. The system maybe flawed, but it’s too late to renege on it. Negative reinforcement won’t work on these people, they have to be positively influenced to make them change their ways.

[AniAko]

I suppor the illegalization of abortion. You are just predicting that aborition rates would rise. I think many people would be scared to get a back alley abortion. My opinions...yours.

It won't increase abortion rates, though you'd see a spike at the end just before it was legalized status was revoked. You would see a higher crime rate though. Much higher.

[bean19]

I would say right about the time it started being performed by actual doctors, instead of someone with a coat hanger?

Actually, there is a very simple way to abort pregnacies with a few inexpensive over-the-counter pills that weren't around back when women were using coat hangers.

I think if women didn't have the ability to go to a doctor, they'd learn of these much easier and less expensive methods, and the actual number of abortions would sky-rocket.

[Savok]

Here's the thing, I don't care if it makes them get jobs, if they're too stupid to live and end up dying on the street this has no bearing on me other then I no longer have to deal with their asshole personalities and the standards of humanity as a whole.

I use subsets because that's who welfare is there for, "you are X, you are entitled to $Y", now some of the these reasons are good (for instance, clinical retardation) some are bad (you're an idiot who keeps having inbred kids), point is welfare for the most part goes too far. If they want to get handouts elsewhere, fine, go to a charity or something, there are plenty of people wanting to throw money at the poor.

This is government sanctioned, that tax payers give money to people who don't deserve with no choice in the matter is what completely sucks, again this is the government running our lives, telling us we have to pay for this baby factory. Choice choice choice, I keep having to ram this home, every day we lose another choice because someone is offended, whines about something or thinks they know best. Freedom is choice.

You could teach your kid how to be a bully and intimidate the other kids, you won't though because that's wrong, you're educated and civilized enough to know this isn't the way things should work. This is why I mentioned education earlier, I don't care about funding or whatever, I want the system gutted, what they learn, who they learn it from, how they learn and who's in charge, that all needs to change drastically.

Not done in a propaganda style mind you, I want this shit grounded, you don't do things to save to the pandas or whatever, you do things because they are right and just, such concepts are lost on the youth of today.

[Savok]

And yes I'm well aware an education system such as that could slip into brainwashing, leaving us only the illusion of choice and in a bigger mess then we are now, but I'm a right wing idealist, what we want and what works aren't always the same, that's why the left is there as a counter balance, and vice versa.

Yes, right wing idealists exist, no it is not an oxymoron.