Could 10-20% Yields for Cell Processor Lead to Further PS3 Problems for Sony?

[Kefkataran]

Thanks to TombofSoldier for reporting this. The story comes courtesy of TGDaily (http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/07/14/ten-to-twenty-percent_yields_for_cell_in_ps3/) :

Essex Junction (VT) - A statement from a senior IBM engineer buried deep within a Q&A with veteran journalist Ed Sperling, published last week by Electronic News, casts a sharp ray of light on an otherwise undiscussed topic: defects in the course of processor production. Defects, IBM vice president of semiconductor and technology services Tom Reeves admitted, crop up in about one in ten processors - specifically, digital ASICs - that are fabricated, and weeding those defects out is part of the everyday work of producing chips. But with today's multicore chips, that defect number is compounded as core counts grow. As a result, Reeves told Sperling, as few as one Cell processor for every ten fabricated may be defect-free upon inspection.

Geez, Sony just can't get a break. MORE bad news. Can we please get an extremely positive Sony story, anyone?!

[DangerousDaze]

Bear in mind that *Sony's use of* the CELL is designed to cope with defects. There's a spare core just in case one of the others is bad. My point here is that the designers were fully aware of how difficult it is to make multi-core processors and have designed accordingly.

DD

/edit - that's not to say that they're not immune from poor yields. They aren't.
/edit2- clarification that it's not the processor itself, but Sony's requirements. They need 7 of the 8 cores in order for the chip to be usable in a PS3. The chip itself aims for all 8 cores to work.

[Kefkataran]

Interesting, Daze. So you're saying that even the "defective" Cell processors should still be able to be used at fine capacity?

[DangerousDaze]

Interesting, Daze. So you're saying that even the "defective" Cell processors should still be able to be used at fine capacity?
IBM have gone on record as saying that they'd sell chips with only 4 operational cores. Then they said 6. Sony's requirement of 7, while originally intending to be a safety gap, amy now appear to be optimistic. Who knows? There's so much negative spin around that it's difficult to tell.

DD

[Kefkataran]

IBM have gone on record as saying that they'd sell chips with only 4 operational cores. Then they said 6. Sony's requirement of 7, while originally intending to be a safety gap, amy now appear to be optimistic. Who knows? There's so much negative spin around that it's difficult to tell.

Yeah, definitely. I'm not so good at grasping the technical stuff, but I think I'm getting what you're saying. Let's hope, for Sony's sake, that this isn't as negative as people are taking it.

[Savok]

I wonder if there'll be a difference between those with all 8 cores going and those which don't. Maybe they'll put a bottleneck in there somewhere so everyone gets the same deal, otherwise we could get games which drop framerates on some systems and not others.

[bean19]

Geez, Sony just can't get a break. MORE bad news. Can we please get an extremely positive Sony story, anyone?!

Just take a journalistic view of things and report the news that happens. The fact that you guys seem to be listening to the blow-hards that paint this site as supportive of one console or another is kind of upsetting.

[Chalex]

Did anyone read the original article?


Clarification
Tom Reeves, IBM’s VP of semiconductor and technology services, said he was not making any specific references to past or current Cell yields in an executive insight interview that ran last week. He was, instead, referring to large die yield challenges in general and the successful leverage provided by logic redundancy strategies. IBM does not release product specific yield information. This clarification was made on July 14, 2006.

[easi]

I believe this started on the Inq.

http://www.virginiadot.org/images/snowshoot-hi-res.jpg

[Savok]

That's a long picture of... something

[EvilBob46]

IBM have gone on record as saying that they'd sell chips with only 4 operational cores. Then they said 6. Sony's requirement of 7, while originally intending to be a safety gap, amy now appear to be optimistic. Who knows? There's so much negative spin around that it's difficult to tell.
DD

Since the system itself and games are designed for 7 cores, a system with fewer cores will not function. Tom Reeves also confirms this in the article here (http://www.reed-electronics.com/electronicnews/article/CA6350202.html?industryid=21365).

What happens if one of the cores blows on the Sony Playstation 3 if there are only seven to start with?
Reeves: It’s just like a reliability failure on your TV or DVD recorder. If it’s within warranty, you send it back. If it’s not, your game doesn’t work anymore.

I wonder if there'll be a difference between those with all 8 cores going and those which don't. Maybe they'll put a bottleneck in there somewhere so everyone gets the same deal, otherwise we could get games which drop framerates on some systems and not others.

You will see the same performance on every PS3 system. If an 8th core exists in a PS3, it will go completely unused.

Electronic News: But would it be as fast as the chip with eight cores?
Reeves: Yes, because the Playstation 3 only uses seven of them. You’d have a spare.

[Savok]

You will see the same performance on every PS3 system. If an 8th core exists in a PS3, it will go completely unused.
Ah, good, dead pixels (on anything) make purchases enough of a lottery.

[JazGalaxy]

So when they say you have a spare, is the PS3 intelligent enough to stop using the "blown" core and then switch to the good "spare" core in the event of an incident?

[Kefkataran]

Just take a journalistic view of things and report the news that happens. The fact that you guys seem to be listening to the blow-hards that paint this site as supportive of one console or another is kind of upsetting.

?? I'm not listening to anybody. I just genuinely wish there was some positive Sony news, because I think it's getting a bit ridiculous and really sad. Yeesh.

[Dafizman]

So when they say you have a spare, is the PS3 intelligent enough to stop using the "blown" core and then switch to the good "spare" core in the event of an incident?

This actually wouldn't be that difficult of a check. At bootup, the PS3 would just need to send a quick command to each of it's proc's with a known result. If one of the proc's dosen't give back the desired result, the unit knows something is up. I doubt it could switch "on the fly" like if you were playing a game and one went.

This story does sensationalize "damaged chips" quite a bit. The chip industry has, to the best of my knowledge, always aimed at getting about 10% effective chips out of a batch. It's cheaper that way, because the measures one would have to take to get a higher percentage of working chips from a batch would raise production costs so much higher, that chips would end up costing drastically more than they do now.

[Kefkataran]

This story does sensationalize "damaged chips" quite a bit. The chip industry has, to the best of my knowledge, always aimed at getting about 10% effective chips out of a batch. It's cheaper that way, because the measures one would have to take to get a higher percentage of working chips from a batch would raise production costs so much higher, that chips would end up costing drastically more than they do now.

That's another interesting factoid I didn't know. Is 10% fairly accurate or...?

[Dafizman]

That's another interesting factoid I didn't know. Is 10% fairly accurate or...?
Well, short of working at intel on the chip line, I doubt you will find their actual daily "yield" data, as I bet that is behind several large closed doors. But what I've heard from several Profs and former industry people is that the computer industry opperates about the opposite of the rest of the production industries. On average, companies aim for a 90% success rate if they are mass producing something. Usually, that's just the most cost effective way to roll. The problem is, when you're making chips, their so damn small, the process to make them are so very different from anything else out there (electron etching, die casting) that the old production models simply don't work.

[lpmiller]

yeah, I dunno that the 10 percent number is all that off from standard this early in the production cycle. Things tend to get better further into the cycle, and this really is a new kind of proc as far as production goes.

[Kefkataran]

Wait, before you said they get 10% effective chips from a batch, then you said they aim for 90% success rate. I'm confused (and yes, this may be due to me being an absolute moron when it comes to tech stuff like this)

[Savok]

Wait, before you said they get 10% effective chips from a batch, then you said they aim for 90% success rate. I'm confused (and yes, this may be due to me being an absolute moron when it comes to tech stuff like this)
Hah, I apparntly have no idea how a router works, or possibly even what one is.

[Lord Nerdious]

Hmmmm, so what you're really saying is, the PS3 includes spare parts incase of the all-too-likely failure? Yea, I'll pass on that.

[Kefkataran]

Hah, I apparntly have no idea how a router works, or possibly even what one is.

I'm pretty close to that level of technological ineptitude, let me assure you.

[Dafizman]

Wait, before you said they get 10% effective chips from a batch, then you said they aim for 90% success rate. I'm confused (and yes, this may be due to me being an absolute moron when it comes to tech stuff like this)

Sorry, too early to convey things. 90% is the success rate for mass production most industries aim for. The exception to this is the computer chip industry, where they aim for 10% success. Rather large difference really.

[Serapth]

Kefk... you are being fed some very incorrect information this thread. A 10% yeild rate is fucking terrible. Analysts estimate the AMD64 processor being about 50%+. Another thing to keep in mind, is atleast up until the P4, yeild rates were determined after the fact. A chunk of processors would be mananufactured, then tested and based on test results their ghz rating would be applied. Therefore even a "failed" 3.4 ghz CPU could be sold as say a 2.0 ghz chip. Yield rates on the 3.4 rating would be terrible because frankly this would have to be almost a perfectly manufactured chip. But by no means does that mean the chip was scrapped, it would still be sold at a lower capacity. This is, at the heart of things, as to why overclocking works.

That said, a new chip will have worse yeild rates then an old chip. Ditto for the smaller or more complicated the chip, the higher the yeild rate. But anyone trying to tell you 10% is normal is lying. Now, saying 10% for such a new and specialized chip... thats closer to the truth.

As to this whole "having a spare core thing" its also a crock of shit. Basically whats happened is, the cell is manufactured to have 8 working cores, but Sonys purchasing contract says only 7 are required. That means after QA if 7 cores work, it will be bought by Sony. That means your PS3 *may* have a working 8th core, but by no means is that likely.

[Savok]

As I recall, 486SXs were shitty 486DXs they burnt a hole in to kill the random floating point.

[easi]

http://dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=3295&ref=y#comments

More informed discourse.

[Serapth]

As I recall, 486SXs were shitty 486DXs they burnt a hole in to kill the random floating point.


That is kinda true. Initially sx chips were just dx's where the DX FPU was garbage. After a while though Intel started the practice of making DXs then nuking the FPU after the fact to sell a value version. This strikes me as an almost illegal practice. Eventually, SXs where actually manufactured with no FPU on the die to actually cut down costs.

For the most part though, SXs were either defective or disabled DXs.

[digitalErich]

What Serapth said is accurate. I also don't think this is as bad as it sounds. 10% for a new chip of this nature is not unusual at all, but I'm sure they are aiming at getting that yield percentage up. How fast they can get that yield up, I'm sure, will be tied into how many consoles Sony can produce early on, so there's that. Also, I believe that Sony plans to sell chips with 8 fully functioning cores/SPUs at a premium for other, non-gaming applications which will help offset all the chips that will essentially "throw-out". Sony or IBM also went on record as saying they are keeping all chips with 6 SPU for possible use elsewhere.

Remember, without context you can make any number look terrible. Also, the first place I saw this information at a few days ago, was The Inquirer...so I'm taking this with a healthy dose of skeptisizm

[jacktion]

So they are designing these things to be broken from the outset? It comes with 8 cores but they only will use 7 so one can be broken and it will be ok? That is dumb. We don't accept that level of crapulence in other fields. It is not like you buy an 8 cylinder car and they restrict it to 7 cylinders because they expect one to be broken from day one. If I buy a car with 8 cylinders I want it to run on 8. If I buy a flatscreen with 10000 pixels I want them all to be "live". If I buy an 8 core piece of hardware I'd like all 8 cores running. I don't want to pay for broken things. That is called throwing your money away.

[Goronmon]

Kefk... you are being fed some very incorrect information this thread. A 10% yeild rate is fucking terrible. Analysts estimate the AMD64 processor being about 50%+. Another thing to keep in mind, is atleast up until the P4, yeild rates were determined after the fact. A chunk of processors would be mananufactured, then tested and based on test results their ghz rating would be applied. Therefore even a "failed" 3.4 ghz CPU could be sold as say a 2.0 ghz chip. Yield rates on the 3.4 rating would be terrible because frankly this would have to be almost a perfectly manufactured chip. But by no means does that mean the chip was scrapped, it would still be sold at a lower capacity. This is, at the heart of things, as to why overclocking works.

That said, a new chip will have worse yeild rates then an old chip. Ditto for the smaller or more complicated the chip, the higher the yeild rate. But anyone trying to tell you 10% is normal is lying. Now, saying 10% for such a new and specialized chip... thats closer to the truth.

As to this whole "having a spare core thing" its also a crock of shit. Basically whats happened is, the cell is manufactured to have 8 working cores, but Sonys purchasing contract says only 7 are required. That means after QA if 7 cores work, it will be bought by Sony. That means your PS3 *may* have a working 8th core, but by no means is that likely.Listen tot his guy, he knows what he's talking about.

[Chalex]

So they are designing these things to be broken from the outset? It comes with 8 cores but they only will use 7 so one can be broken and it will be ok? That is dumb. We don't accept that level of crapulence in other fields. It is not like you buy an 8 cylinder car and they restrict it to 7 cylinders because they expect one to be broken from day one. If I buy a car with 8 cylinders I want it to run on 8. If I buy a flatscreen with 10000 pixels I want them all to be "live". If I buy an 8 core piece of hardware I'd like all 8 cores running. I don't want to pay for broken things. That is called throwing your money away.It happens every day in comsumer electronics, I'd bet money that the computer you typed this response on has at least one component that failed QA so it was underclocked/had something disabled and was sold just the same.

[rjcc]

this is dumbassery. we've already talked about this interview and the guy didn't say the yields were low. go back and read the original interview. you people can't fucking read.

[rjcc]

It happens every day in comsumer electronics, I'd bet money that the computer you typed this response on has at least one component that failed QA so it was underclocked/had something disabled and was sold just the same.

I can't believe that in 2006 there are people who still don't know what redundancy and speed binning mean.

[Ph00p]

That would rock if you bought a $600 PS3 and it only had 7 cores instead of the advertied 8, I'd love it!

[Serapth]

So they are designing these things to be broken from the outset? It comes with 8 cores but they only will use 7 so one can be broken and it will be ok? That is dumb. We don't accept that level of crapulence in other fields. It is not like you buy an 8 cylinder car and they restrict it to 7 cylinders because they expect one to be broken from day one. If I buy a car with 8 cylinders I want it to run on 8. If I buy a flatscreen with 10000 pixels I want them all to be "live". If I buy an 8 core piece of hardware I'd like all 8 cores running. I don't want to pay for broken things. That is called throwing your money away.


Well, the thing is, your buying a PS3, not a CELL CPU. In the end its the whole package that matters, not the individual components. On the end of the consumer, this whole thing is non-news. It just means Sony is probrably spending more money getting the chips they need.

Now, you want a scary fact... Everything you buy does infact include defects. Ive worked in the auto industry, and I know for a fact all parts we created werent equal. There is a tollerance level in every component that goes into a car. Each batch is tested to a certain tollerance level ( as the minimum ) and given a pass or fail. Point blank that means there are defects in almost every commerical product you buy. Its just once assembled as a whole it doesnt matter any more... or atleast shouldnt.

Oh... and this is why you shouldnt buy a car manufactured on a friday. The people doing QA / Assembly are more interested in the weekend then the quality of piece going into your car :)

[Savok]

So they are designing these things to be broken from the outset? It comes with 8 cores but they only will use 7 so one can be broken and it will be ok? That is dumb. We don't accept that level of crapulence in other fields. It is not like you buy an 8 cylinder car and they restrict it to 7 cylinders because they expect one to be broken from day one. If I buy a car with 8 cylinders I want it to run on 8. If I buy a flatscreen with 10000 pixels I want them all to be "live". If I buy an 8 core piece of hardware I'd like all 8 cores running. I don't want to pay for broken things. That is called throwing your money away.
Welcome to the world of disposable electronics. You know how your parents tell you "things used to better, nothing is made to last anymore, it goes 6 months then falls apart".

They're right

[digitalErich]

So they are designing these things to be broken from the outset? It comes with 8 cores but they only will use 7 so one can be broken and it will be ok? That is dumb. We don't accept that level of crapulence in other fields. It is not like you buy an 8 cylinder car and they restrict it to 7 cylinders because they expect one to be broken from day one. If I buy a car with 8 cylinders I want it to run on 8. If I buy a flatscreen with 10000 pixels I want them all to be "live". If I buy an 8 core piece of hardware I'd like all 8 cores running. I don't want to pay for broken things. That is called throwing your money away.
No, they are not designing these things to be broken at the outset. And fabbing processors is unlike any of the exmaples you've mentioned. I won't get into it here....they are sites out there than can explain it better than I so I'll just say this again: Numbers without context are just numbers. If you don't know much about the CPU manufacturing industry, you have no context. I'm not trying to be a dick, just letting ppl know that while 10% is a very low percentage, it's not the end of the world here.

[digitalErich]

Oh... and this is why you shouldnt buy a car manufactured on a friday. The people doing QA / Assembly are more interested in the weekend then the quality of piece going into your car :)
Mind telling me how I would determine that? :)

[rjcc]

?? I'm not listening to anybody. I just genuinely wish there was some positive Sony news, because I think it's getting a bit ridiculous and really sad. Yeesh.


no it isn't negative sony news, it is totally non-news if reported accurately. The only problem here is that you have no idea what you're reading, and haven't read the original interview.

This is from a WEEK ago and I'm absolutely positive excerrpts from the interview were posted here before becausre it is the EXACT SAME INTERVIEW where the guy talked about how serious sony was about backwards compAtubility

this moronic interpretation of the ibm guys comments began on the inquirer, so this should never have been posted as evav doesn't post the inq articles anymore.

[digitalErich]

Oh, and IBM isnt the only fab producing the Cell, so there is a possibility that the other fabs are getting better yields (unlikely, but possible).

[Serapth]

Mind telling me how I would determine that? :)

Actually, yeah. Manufacture date should be on a sticker on the driver side door.

[Chalex]

That would rock if you bought a $600 PS3 and it only had 7 cores instead of the advertied 8, I'd love it!When has it ever had 8 advertised :confused:

[Reanimated]

Bad news... what bad news?

[bone4ahead]

So they are designing these things to be broken from the outset? It comes with 8 cores but they only will use 7 so one can be broken and it will be ok? That is dumb. We don't accept that level of crapulence in other fields. It is not like you buy an 8 cylinder car and they restrict it to 7 cylinders because they expect one to be broken from day one. If I buy a car with 8 cylinders I want it to run on 8. If I buy a flatscreen with 10000 pixels I want them all to be "live". If I buy an 8 core piece of hardware I'd like all 8 cores running. I don't want to pay for broken things. That is called throwing your money away.

Your analogy is incorrect. It's more like you buy a 9 cylinder car that's advertised to have 8 cylinders. The 9th cylinder may or may not work. Either way it's disabled. So you got exactly what you payed for.

Sony is advertising 7 cores. If you get 8 then the 8th is disabled. Either way you only paid for 7. Even though I don't like Sony, their not ripping you off in this case.

[Watership]

Just take a journalistic view of things and report the news that happens. The fact that you guys seem to be listening to the blow-hards that paint this site as supportive of one console or another is kind of upsetting.

It's news if the news is all bad in a row all the time :). This just just in: 39th man bites dog. That's news. Even 'serious' journalists and news outlets are saying that Sony has been getting seriously bad press of late.

[Watership]

Kefk... you are being fed some very incorrect information this thread. A 10% yeild rate is fucking terrible. *SNIP*

The cell is pretty new however, I'm sure they'll ramp up production once they clear all the technical hurdles.

[Mr. Croup]

I don't know why everyone seems so fixated on the 10-20% figures. The IBM engineer seems to be referring to Cells with all 8 SPEs working when using those numbers.
It becomes a bigger problem the bigger the chip is. With chips that are one-by-one and silicon germanium, we can get yields of 95 percent. With a chip like the Cell processor, you’re lucky to get 10 or 20 percent. If you put logic redundancy on it, you can double that. So choosing to use Cells with 8 or 7 SPEs gives them yields of 20-40% at the moment, which doesn't sound too bad esp. this early in the process.

[rjcc]

I don't know why everyone seems so fixated on the 10-20% figures. The IBM engineer seems to be referring to Cells with all 8 SPEs working when using those numbers.
So choosing to use Cells with 8 or 7 SPEs gives them yields of 20-40% at the moment, which doesn't sound too bad esp. this early in the process.

excuse me sir, you appear to have mistaken teh intarweb as a place where anyone actually reads what the source is saying and interprets it accurately.

[tombofsoldier]

Hiya, let me asplain for the people who dont know what this article is saying and for those didn't bother to read it because they are crazy Sony fan boys.

Basically, whenever IBM is producing a processor, there is a 10% the processor core will have a defect. Now this isn't so bad when your proc. only has one core, however the cell has 8. That means 8 x 10% = an 80% chance that the processor will have a defect, because at least one of the cores will be defective.

Now, Sony tried to solve this by allowing for one of the cores on the PS3 cell to be defective whithout hindering performance. However, this only allows for another 10% of the chips made to be used in the PS3, making it 30% of them. In other words, if the Cell and the PS3 are to be succesfull, IBM needs to drastically lower that 10% defect rate.

[rjcc]

Hiya, let me asplain for the people who dont know what this article is saying and for those didn't bother to read it because they are crazy Sony fan boys.

Basically, whenever IBM is producing a processor, there is a 10% the processor core will have a defect. Now this isn't so bad when your proc. only has one core, however the cell has 8. That means 8 x 10% = an 80% chance that the processor will have a defect, because at least one of the cores will be defective.

Now, Sony tried to solve this by allowing for one of the cores on the PS3 cell to be defective whithout hindering performance. However, this only allows for another 10% of the chips made to be used in the PS3, making it 30% of them. In other words, if the Cell and the PS3 are to be succesfull, IBM needs to drastically lower that 10% defect rate.


lemme asplain for people who can't spell explain. He didn't say what the failure rate on cell processors are, he made a general example of how complex manufacturing such a processor is. Morons have decided that these are direct numbers announced by IBM.

[Chalex]

Hiya, let me asplain for the people who dont know what this article is saying and for those didn't bother to read it because they are crazy Sony fan boys.

Basically, whenever IBM is producing a processor, there is a 10% the processor core will have a defect. Now this isn't so bad when your proc. only has one core, however the cell has 8. That means 8 x 10% = an 80% chance that the processor will have a defect, because at least one of the cores will be defective.

Now, Sony tried to solve this by allowing for one of the cores on the PS3 cell to be defective whithout hindering performance. However, this only allows for another 10% of the chips made to be used in the PS3, making it 30% of them. In other words, if the Cell and the PS3 are to be succesfull, IBM needs to drastically lower that 10% defect rate.WOW..... just wow.

[EvilBob46]

That would rock if you bought a $600 PS3 and it only had 7 cores instead of the advertied 8, I'd love it!

Sony does not advertise a PS3 with 8 cores at all. They advertise a PS3 with 7 functional cores, and this has been known for a year. It also says there are 7 SPEs in the official PS3 specification sheet.

[BGSS]

What we do know here is that its first generation sony gear....that's dangerous in itself. Mix that with a whole new type of processor and....you might want to wait a couple months before you get your ps3 so they can clean up some of the problems. Who knows, maybe it will take them 4 years to fix the major problems again *coughps2cough*.

[PopoWRX]

What we do know here is that its first generation sony gear....that's dangerous in itself. Mix that with a whole new type of processor and....you might want to wait a couple months before you get your ps3 so they can clean up some of the problems. Who knows, maybe it will take them 4 years to fix the major problems again *coughps2cough*.

First generation anything is a dicey proposition in terms of life expectancy. My Xbox has been dying a slow death for a good while now (Third controller port no longer works, makes wierd noises, hangs up, etc.) and it was a first generation xbox.

[lockwoodx]

Geez, Sony just can't get a break. MORE bad news. Can we please get an extremely positive Sony story, anyone?![/QUOTE]



Lets hope not.

[antoniogaud]

The SDF sure is on a mission in this thread!! They have a hard job ahead of them before the tide of the battle swings their way, however...

[thecrazyd]

The SDF sure is on a mission in this thread!! They have a hard job ahead of them before the tide of the battle swings their way, however...
Don't be a dick. Read the actual article, and it is not negative.

[Mav]

Can we please get an extremely positive Sony story, anyone?!

IGN (TM) reports today that Sony has discontinued their game hardware division as a console manufacturer. Their newest console, the yet to be released Playstation 3, has been cancelled. Sony representives could not be reached at press time but Sony American CEO Howard Stringer made the following brief statement

"While we have not yet come to a press release status, I can say this; Sony has decided to move onto other ventures in the entertainment market. With the blazing success of the Blu-Ray format, Sony is endeavoring to make more sophisticated consumer price friendly Blu-Ray players and other hardware."

IGN also tried to contact sources at Nintendo and Microsoft to inquire their reaction to the news, both declined comment at this time.

That, is a extremely positive Sony story.

[bean19]

Mav - that would suck really badly actually.

[Khash]

yea that would suck for pretty much everyone, actually

[Kamalot]

Kefk... you are being fed some very incorrect information this thread. A 10% yeild rate is fucking terrible. Analysts estimate the AMD64 processor being about 50%+. Another thing to keep in mind, is atleast up until the P4, yeild rates were determined after the fact. A chunk of processors would be mananufactured, then tested and based on test results their ghz rating would be applied. Therefore even a "failed" 3.4 ghz CPU could be sold as say a 2.0 ghz chip. Yield rates on the 3.4 rating would be terrible because frankly this would have to be almost a perfectly manufactured chip. But by no means does that mean the chip was scrapped, it would still be sold at a lower capacity. This is, at the heart of things, as to why overclocking works.

That said, a new chip will have worse yeild rates then an old chip. Ditto for the smaller or more complicated the chip, the higher the yeild rate. But anyone trying to tell you 10% is normal is lying. Now, saying 10% for such a new and specialized chip... thats closer to the truth.

As to this whole "having a spare core thing" its also a crock of shit. Basically whats happened is, the cell is manufactured to have 8 working cores, but Sonys purchasing contract says only 7 are required. That means after QA if 7 cores work, it will be bought by Sony. That means your PS3 *may* have a working 8th core, but by no means is that likely.
So, gamers pay for new, untested technology with high prices and console shortages...

[Kefkataran]

My head got all explodey. :( I'm leaving the technical stuff to you guys.


this moronic interpretation of the ibm guys comments began on the inquirer, so this should never have been posted as evav doesn't post the inq articles anymore.

Nothing about the Inquirer was mentioned in the article, thus making that difficult to just magically know as I stear clear of that site myself. I apologize if that is the case, but I had no idea.

That, is a extremely positive Sony story.

I wholly disagree, but I'm sure there's plenty of fanboys around who would agree with you.

[rjcc]

here is the original article back on 7/7. you will recognize the quote at the end concerning sony and backwards compatibility being important. That was reposted on gamesdaily.biz and picked up on in a lot of places.

http://www.reed-electronics.com/electronicnews/article/CA6350202.html?industryid=21365

here is the inquirer 5 days later completely lying and being general asshats about it

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=32978

subsequently reposted on gizmodo etc.

[Kefkataran]

I believe you, apologies for not knowing.

[BigMike20VT]

It happens every day in comsumer electronics, I'd bet money that the computer you typed this response on has at least one component that failed QA so it was underclocked/had something disabled and was sold just the same.


yep that is spot on..... which is why many owners of the AGP 6800 are able to unlock the extra pipes in it, and others (such as myself) got artifacts in doing so.

Also many of the newer Sandiego A64's are actually dual core toledos with a faulty 2nd core.

Personally i have NO problem with Sony having to only need 7 of 8 working cores, and i think it is certain to say that it will affect us as consumers not 1 jot.

as for 10% yeilds (actaully iirc raises to 20-30% when you factor in only 7 cores needed, and the fact that the 6 functional core units are to be sold elsewhere) that IS pretty poor but it will improve.

I think its safe to say, Sony are haivng a tough time of it lately but 12 months from now the ps3 will be out, and it will be a success.......... Altho, *** will be rubbing themselves with glee as all this will be allowing them to catch up to some degree to the brand playstation (which is all good for us as consumers). There is nowt worth for Joe average than a stagnant monopoly

[Goronmon]

After reading this thread, it really hits home how true the old adage "A little learning is a dangerous thing..." is in today's world. Just because people buy a video game console or own a computer, they all of a sudden believe themselves to have an understanding on how stuff like this "should" work.

Its hilarious and troubling all at the same time.

[Kamalot]

Just because people buy a video game console or own a computer, they all of a sudden believe themselves to have an understanding on how stuff like this "should" work.

Yeah. I believe I SHOULD be able to buy a console that is affordable, reliable and plays great games. On top of that, it should be fun.

I SHOULD NOT have to pay extra for a company’s decision to use untested and expensive technology.

What EVER was I thinking?!

[rjcc]

Yeah. I believe I SHOULD be able to buy a console that is affordable, reliable and plays great games. On top of that, it should be fun.

I SHOULD NOT have to pay extra for a company’s decision to use untested and expensive technology.

What EVER was I thinking?!

So you never buy anything new?

This commentary would apply to your car, appliances, utilities, health care, anything you spend money on ever.

If you only buy tried-and-true technology well.....lemme know how that game boy color is working for you.

[Savok]

Come on guys, the shear excess of waste in these industries is a shock to everyone first time they hear it.

[Kamalot]

So you never buy anything new?

This commentary would apply to your car, appliances, utilities, health care, anything you spend money on ever.

If you only buy tried-and-true technology well.....lemme know how that game boy color is working for you.
There is more than a little difference between buying a game system and a do-everything-expensive-new-processor-with-10%-yeilds-bluray-movie-station.

Gamers are being asked to foot the bill of Sony's rampant and ill-conceived R&D efforts and their attempt to force new movie formats. I don't remember any of that when I upgraded to a GBA.

And just as gamers are being asked to foot the bill for Sony’s blunders, gamers have the right to say NO!

[rjcc]

that isn't what I asked.

Your personal feelings about sony's use of the ps3 t promote blu-ray are irrelevant to my question.

you said

I SHOULD NOT have to pay extra for a company’s decision to use untested and expensive technology.

I think you're full of shit, because you do it every day willingly. Anyone who likes new things does. When you bought your GBA you footed the bill for nintendo's R&D. Now, if you'd like to say instead


I do not want to pay extra to become a part of a company's installed base for an unrelated technology that I'm not sure if I like yet

then I'd have no argument.

[timmyd]

Hiya, let me asplain for the people who dont know what this article is saying and for those didn't bother to read it because they are crazy Sony fan boys.

Basically, whenever IBM is producing a processor, there is a 10% the processor core will have a defect. Now this isn't so bad when your proc. only has one core, however the cell has 8. That means 8 x 10% = an 80% chance that the processor will have a defect, because at least one of the cores will be defective.

Now, Sony tried to solve this by allowing for one of the cores on the PS3 cell to be defective whithout hindering performance. However, this only allows for another 10% of the chips made to be used in the PS3, making it 30% of them. In other words, if the Cell and the PS3 are to be succesfull, IBM needs to drastically lower that 10% defect rate.

Hiya, lemma asplain I be bad at stutistics. However this in other words means that if the Cell had 11 cells that would make it allows for 110% failure defect batch rate.

[DangerousDaze]

This explains the maths behind it in more detail. Bear with me because it gets a little tricky...
http://www.fileden.com/public/2006/7/16/44ba07bcbeb5f553211186.gif
Arse.

DD

[nemyhlovecraft]

Hiya, let me asplain for the people who dont know what this article is saying and for those didn't bother to read it because they are crazy Sony fan boys.

Basically, whenever IBM is producing a processor, there is a 10% the processor core will have a defect. Now this isn't so bad when your proc. only has one core, however the cell has 8. That means 8 x 10% = an 80% chance that the processor will have a defect, because at least one of the cores will be defective.

Now, Sony tried to solve this by allowing for one of the cores on the PS3 cell to be defective whithout hindering performance. However, this only allows for another 10% of the chips made to be used in the PS3, making it 30% of them. In other words, if the Cell and the PS3 are to be succesfull, IBM needs to drastically lower that 10% defect rate.

Seriously, though, probability doesn't work that way....plus the rest of this is stupid.

[nemyhlovecraft]

Sony does not advertise a PS3 with 8 cores at all. They advertise a PS3 with 7 functional cores, and this has been known for a year. It also says there are 7 SPEs in the official PS3 specification sheet.

Plus if you read the article which this post and subsequent thread alludes to, Tom Reeves actually states that the 8 core Cells are probably going to be used in high-end super computer for "medical imaging, aerospace and defense and data uses". As far as the Cell goes, Sony/IBM really have a nice thing going. The cross-applications of parallel slave processors, which may one day be able to scale infinitely, are tuly endless. Once they perfect the die and design process, think about a Cell chip with 10 SPEs, 20 SPEs, etc. Though the Cell as a whole is complex, the individual SPEs are less complex than normal processors and production may get to the point where making a new Cell that features more SPEs is a trivial process.

Gamasutra has a good article on the overall design intents of the Cell:
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20060713/turley_01.shtml