Microsoft "not confident" about 360 in Japan

[easi]

Wow! At last some honesty (http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=13226) from people within the industry. Microsoft Japan CEO Darren Heuston has admitted that he's not that confident about the 360 taking off in Japan. He confirms that Microsoft don't expect to rule the Japanese gaming market:

"Globally we are doing very well but Japan has always been tough," said Darren Huston, president and chief executive officer of Microsoft's Japan unit, at a company event, according to the IDG News Service. "We launched early and with not enough Japan-specific content."

"I can't say I'm beaming with confidence in Japan," admitted Huston.

"We need to do deliver more Japanese content that Japanese gamers want. That's why we continue to work super hard with Japanese game developers and publishers. It's why our efforts with Sakaguchi-san and Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey are so important," he said. "Because those are the kinds of titles that can really drive new users to our platform. [We need to] demonstrate to everybody in Japan that we're very serious about being more successful in Japan. I think our expectations are realistic there; we don't expect to win in Japan but we definitely expect to do better [with 360]. And we need to deliver on Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey."
Will MS ever crack the (arguably) most important gaming market in the world? Are Japanese gamers really racist/xenophobic/nationalistic like many seem to think, or is it simply a case of ingrained perception and a longer history of Sony/Nintendo giving them what they want?

[Draft]

]Will MS ever crack the (arguably) most important gaming market in the world?Uh, they already do quite well in America.

[balamoor]

Are Japanese gamers really racist/xenophobic/nationalistic like many seem to think

Are some? You betcha seen a lot of it first hand when I was in Japan, many westerners that play FFXI have seen it first hand as well, but most educated Japanese citizens aren't that way at all. The Japanese have a love hate relationship with the United States, in many ways they try to emulate the U.S. at the same time the desperately are afraid of losing their culture (What little of it that is left) and identity. It is a very complicated society that really doesn’t even understand itself.

[bKangy]

I do think that a lot of Japanese gamers steer clear of Xbox because it is indeed not Sony or Nintendo. I imagine they perceive it as an outsider with little to offer. They're wrong, but they'll never see it until Microsoft put more money into delivering stuff for Japanese gamers. Unfortunately, most of that is crap like the Final Fantasy series. There's some gems, but a lot of it is crap.

[Knite]

Are some? You betcha seen a lot of it first hand when I was in Japan, many westerners that play FFXI have seen it first hand as well, but most educated Japanese citizens aren't that way at all. The Japanese have a love hate relationship with the United States, in many ways they try to emulate the U.S. at the same time the desperately are afraid of losing their culture (What little of it that is left) and identity. It is a very complicated society that really doesn’t even understand itself.


Kinda like the United States?
I mean really, what IS our culture? Are we english or spanish speaking? Are we culture-americans, or americans? Do we stand for the same thing? What does an American look like? What is some American food?

Just sayin, I don't think we've ever technically created an identity for outself other than "we think we kick ass"

;-)

[easi]

Uh, they already do quite well in America.

This thread is about how they are faring in a market that doesn't give a shit about Halo.

[jBusy]

Are Japanese gamers really racist/xenophobic/nationalistic?

I'm sure this is part of the problem, but as someone pointed out, it's also a problem here to a smaller extent. This is certainly not the main cause of Microsoft's failure in Japan. If you disagree, I'm sure McDonald's Japan branch would like to have a word with you.

[Zawath]

Currently it's just impossible because the Sony hypemachine is really strong in Japan. Even the Japanese developers honestly believe that Playstation 3 is 2 times more powerful than X360. They believe everything Sony tells them.

[Draft]

This thread is about how they are faring in a market that doesn't give a shit about Halo.Oh, ok, I thought it was a market about the most important market for gaming.

[ldi222]

Im not going to lie, part of the reason why Im so happy to see 360 and Microsoft succeed is because it is an American company. Id much rather see the center of the gaming world in the United states than rely on delayed console releases and imported games I dont care about. As a western gamer, the European and American developers are much more important to me than the Japanese.

[Hg-203]

Kinda like the United States?
I mean really, what IS our culture? Are we english or spanish speaking? Are we culture-americans, or americans? Do we stand for the same thing? What does an American look like? What is some American food?

Just sayin, I don't think we've ever technically created an identity for outself other than "we think we kick ass"

;-)
Not to take this totaly off topic but...
lol, Knite that's a loaded statement, especially in Southern Californa where the illegal immigration issue is very hot down here. Just to preference the statement my opinion is in the camp that wants to call a spade a spade and call it illegal immigration, but while there is no grand sweeping image of an American, what sets us apart is the culture that we Americans have. To me it is the food or look, but it seems to be a very pioneering spirit, where if we think there is a better way someone will go and try it, also Americans seem to be itching to take action instead of sitting around and just discussing.

Anyways not to take this thing totally off topic and argue about immigration and American culture I just wanted to state my opinion not caring what anyone might think at all. As for this issue have there been any games that are made in the US that are successful in Japan? If not it could show that style of games the US makes might not be properly targeted at the Japanese market. If there have been some successful games then MS hasn't done a good enough job at getting those games into the Japanese market.

[Mozgus]

So iz dat sum Jap fanboiz?

[easi]

Oh, ok, I thought it was a market about the most important market for gaming.

The USA is not the most important market for gaming, despite what your fragile ego requires you to believe. Of all the people who buy an Xbox in the USA, how many will also buy only Halo or Madden or some other mundane franchise? In Japan, gamers are far more likely to buy a large number of different titles, of course that means actually having games they want to play.

Now move along.

[NonSoft]

Currently it's just impossible because the Sony hypemachine is really strong in Japan. Even the Japanese developers honestly believe that Playstation 3 is 2 times more powerful than X360. They believe everything Sony tells them.

Yes, clearly the reason that Japanese developers prefer the PS3 is because they are brainless idiots enchanted by idiotic blathering of Sony PR. Surely it has nothing to do with the fact that they know their market, or that Microsoft hasn't made much of an effort to invade the Japanese market.

Until Microsoft makes an effort to establish the 360 as a true contender in the Japanese market, developers will more than likely stick with Nintendo and Sony. Not because they are fooled by Sony's PR, but because they know more of their potential customers will own those consoles.

[matrixsucks]

They're wrong, but they'll never see it until Microsoft put more money into delivering stuff for Japanese gamers. Unfortunately, most of that is crap like the Final Fantasy series. There's some gems, but a lot of it is crap.
The Final Fantasy series is one of the most influential series in gaming today.

What are your gems?

[F3nyx]

The Final Fantasy series is one of the most influential series in gaming today.The Final Fantasy series was one of the most influential series in gaming fifteen years ago. Sure, it still sells well, but at this point JRPGs are so crystallized that they can't influence much of anything. Of course, I'm talking about influence on gameplay in other games, and I guess you might have meant a different kind of influence -- financial, perhaps?

Anyways not to take this thing totally off topic and argue about immigration and American culture I just wanted to state my opinion not caring what anyone might think at all.That's what blogs are for. Statements like yours will take a thread off-topic, hollow disclaimers to the contrary notwithstanding.

[balamoor]

The USA is not the most important market for gaming, despite what your fragile ego requires you to believe. Of all the people who buy an Xbox in the USA, how many will also buy only Halo or Madden or some other mundane franchise? In Japan, gamers are far more likely to buy a large number of different titles, of course that means actually having games they want to play.

Now move along.

And that is the real issue with the 360. A very good friend of mine Manages our local EB, and has told me several times that while Xbox 360 sales are ok corporate wide no one is really buying anything besides Madden 07, new games like Prey, Over G Fighters and even Chromehounds are basically sitting on the shelf, which makes the 360 a damn expensive Football simulator.

What is moving are Refurbished Xbox's, PS-2 and Game Cubes, why? Low price and tons of games. And if you look at what’s coming down the pike for 360, there is nothing really that earth shattering. Yeah, yeah Halo3 and Gears of War...while these will do okay sales wide I just don't see any break out Titles that defines the Xbox 360 being developed.

[NonSoft]

The Final Fantasy series was one of the most influential series in gaming fifteen years ago. Sure, it still sells well, but at this point JRPGs are so crystallized that they can't influence much of anything. Of course, I'm talking about influence on gameplay in other games, and I guess you might have meant a different kind of influence -- financial, perhaps?


I completely disagree. I'm not a huge fan of the Final Fantasy series (although I am looking forward to XII), but I don't think that it is fair to say that it is no longer influential. Every iteration implements new gameplay features which are imitated in many other JRPGs for years afterwards.

If nothing else you would almost have to admit that FFVII paved the way for heavy use of cinematic cutscenes in RPGs and that game was only released about 9 years ago.

The Final Fantasy series may not be as great as it once was, but to say that it is no longer influential and hasn't been in fifteen years is completely false.

[Lunar Blue]

I don't think the gamers themselves are that nationalistic but what about the press? It's nothing new from the press in Japan and South Korea to "play for their team", so the games outside have a really tough time breaking through. Their unique language and not to forget, an alphabet, makes it much harder to learn stuff that is printed on foreign paper.

I have hardly any expertise on the matter but that's the way i see it. I think there are a few people living in japan here at EvAv so they could enlighten us a little on how much exposure foreign games get in Japan. You know, how the hell do you know HL, halo or GTA is a good game if you've never heard of it?

[theguido]

Im not going to lie, part of the reason why Im so happy to see 360 and Microsoft succeed is because it is an American company. Id much rather see the center of the gaming world in the United states.

God I hope that's never the case. If America was the end-all and be-all of games we'd be playing nothing but football and first-person shooters.

[theguido]

I think that at this point it's over. Once the image of a system is established in the mind of the general population, it's stuck with it forever, like it or not. It's going to take more than a couple of RPG's that we know little about to rehabilitate that image.

The real problem was launching with very little, thus giving few incentive, and thus making people believe it's the Xbox all over again---which doesn't exactly inspire confidence in the gaming populace, I'm sure.

[Wonka]

1) Japan is not the largest market so its hard to make the argument that that it is the "most important" market. They ARE indeed destined to be the smallest and most saturated market (least growth opportunity). And this is just because there are only so many people you can cram onto an island nation, and because they have all been game consumers for some time already. The US is already a larger market than Japan. You MIGHT try and claim that they have the best developers, but thats pretty damned subjective.

2) Japan (as everyone SHOULD know) is populated by HUMANS. And humans need money to eat. So if the 360 takes over statestide and gives good competition to Sony in Europe, then there WILL BE popular Japanese games on the 360. Maybe not enough to turn things around in Japan for the 360, but enough to turn the tables around and maybe give MS a chance at that market NEXT TIME. Cross platform games will come to Japan eventually. The global dominance of Sony is going to erode (they have nowhere to go but down from here). So Japanese studios are about to recieve some "reality checks" from global markets. Making games for just one platform can't cut it if the bulk of the world uses another platform...

[Furious Wang]

Here's the problem:

Microsoft doesn't understand Japanese culture. They think tossing out a few j-rpgs or stylish japanese history themed action games will satisfy an entire country's need for games.

They're looking for a blockbuster title to secure an entire country's loyalty.

That is not how Sony wins in Japan. Sony wins with a shit ton of cheap, silly, casual games that the Japanese pick up in a used game store, play for a week and then trade back in. Sony wins Japan with the dating sims, the Horse track sims, those weird pachinko spin offs, and 800 subpar anime based games released every week.

Here's what you do, Microsoft. Start paying Japanese development houses to make all those anime and sushi bar simulators for the 360 and put them on Live for free. Put Maple Story or something like it on Live for free. Start mailing out Anime figures and plush toys and what not for achievement achievers.

[rjcc]

? saying "I'm not beaming with confidence" is not the same as saying "I'm not confident". the rewriting and editing of quotes is hilarious.

[TrackZero]

MS will get into that market. With time, patience and games targetted to that market. Dominate it? Hell no, but they will become a player.

[Furious Wang]

I completely disagree. I'm not a huge fan of the Final Fantasy series (although I am looking forward to XII), but I don't think that it is fair to say that it is no longer influential. Every iteration implements new gameplay features which are imitated in many other JRPGs for years afterwards.

If nothing else you would almost have to admit that FFVII paved the way for heavy use of cinematic cutscenes in RPGs and that game was only released about 9 years ago.

The Final Fantasy series may not be as great as it once was, but to say that it is no longer influential and hasn't been in fifteen years is completely false.

Yep, heavy use of cinematic cutscenes sure is innovative gameplay.

[Flatpicker]

If Japan were still the most influential market as it was 10-12 years ago, then this might be an issue.
Then again, if that were so, we would all be playing mobile phone games now.

It's a world market. No one region is make or break for anybody except the developers. and that's only if they don't make multiplatform titles.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the videogame market become split during this generation with Sony dominating Japan, Microsoft in America, and possibly the EU, While Nintendo remains profitable in all regions.
I see the Blu-Ray HDVD battle going the same way, until they are surpassed by digital distribution.

It's just irrelevant nowadays.

[SexualChoc]

While the Japanese certainly set the trend for gaming, it doesn't mean thier market is the most important. Though in reality there isn't a 'main market', the US seems to be the general consesus. I mean if something goes well there, then it is normally picked up by other markets, especially the EU. Japan is a good testing ground for most new consoles and games, as it's a very centralised culture that games, thus can give a mass opinion. Though the have there qualms with specific genres (FPS mainly), it seems to accept most new games. Microsoft has entered the market, and expected it to do well as it just games. But it's main selling point was an FPS, so it did sub par. It's main RPG was either about Star Wars or wasn't an RPG at all (arguably).

Microsoft have seen where they have failed with the Xbox, and tried again with the 360. But a lack of games, both appealing and in general, are lacking in that market. While it certainly has some strong contenders for games that appeal to it, the market is currently focused towards the handheld market, and will then turn towards the new consoles from Sony and Nintendo. While it will (and should) do better this time round, I don't think it will be the success that everyone expects.

[bKangy]

The Final Fantasy series is one of the most influential series in gaming today.

What are your gems?

I should probably elaborate on it, I really loved the older ones but I think with time hype has slowly overtaken actual quality of the games. It's disappointing. Personal gems though? Ico is sitting on my desk right now :)

[Draft]

The USA is not the most important market for gaming, despite what your fragile ego requires you to believe. Of all the people who buy an Xbox in the USA, how many will also buy only Halo or Madden or some other mundane franchise? In Japan, gamers are far more likely to buy a large number of different titles, of course that means actually having games they want to play.

Now move along.It's the largest market where the most money can be made, which is why it's the most important. My ego has nothing to do with it.

BTW, japan has its "Halos" and "Maddens." They're called Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy. I don't see what that has to do with this topic in the first place, anyway.

[easi]

Way to ignore the point and carry on oblivious.

[EvilBob46]

This following is a rant, motivated in part by a lot of comments on Evil Avatar in this and previous threads. It's my own opinion so blow me.

The Xbox 360 launch in Japan was shit. Complete and utter SHIT. They launched with NOTHING that anyone in Japan gives a crap about. A merely average First-Person Shooter of all things, another entry in the stale Ridge Racer franchise...a Tetris game? Are you fucking kidding me? There have been some bad console launches in the past, but for a company that has not been able to establish themselves in a certain market an uneventful launch can really suck the momentum out of a console from the very beginning, and that's what happened here. And then people complain about racism and nationalism being the biggest culprit in the 360's failure? For the first 6 months the only Triple A game for the 360 in Japan was Dead or Alive 4 for crying out loud, and there was a complete lack of the kinds of whacky/quirky games the Japanese really like. No wonder the console fails.

Next up: Japanese tastes. The Japanese don't especially care about FPS games. (On a side note, I used to play FPS games almost exclusively but have since grown tired of 90% of FPS games because the genre has become tremendously stale. Stop pretending FPS games represent the pinacle of gaming.) They prefer different genres. Instead of bitching about the fact how they're not all over the usual tirade of FPS games that happen to be so popular in the Western markets, perhaps MS should try investing into games the Japanese are more interested in. And I don't mean creating average games as filler material to say "Hey, we actually released a Role Playing Game for the 360 in Japan! Ninety-Nine Nights! At least we're trying!" even though the game is barely average (http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/928270.asp) (if even that). Just because MS has an RPG on the 360 in Japan doesn't mean anything if the game is not at least above average, so stop pretending the Japanese hate American products because they don't give a shit about some insignificant RPG (or other insignificant games, for that matter).

And perhaps MS could take a hint from the success of the DS and its quirky/different games (Animal Crossing, Brain Age) to get some of that stuff for the 360 and start attracting Japan's softcore audience, something they haven't done enough of (despite of the fact that the infrastructure is right there with Xbox Live Arcade). It's almost as if MS's plans to attract the Japanese casual audience right now are nonexistant - big mistake.

[Hellstorm]

Oh, ok, I thought it was a market about the most important market for gaming.

Right, and Japan doesn't care about Halo.

[outontheporch]

They probobly don't buy any 360's cause all the games suck. Man, we got a 360 when it came out and i havent touched it since then. 360 FTL, hopefully ps3 or wii will have not sucky games.

[KNOTE]

The japanese do not hate American products.
Japan is not the most important videogame market.
In order to sell consoles you have to have content that people want.

[Chandler]

http://japanhatesmicrosoft.ytmnd.com/

turn down speakers alert

[Tohoya]

Do you guys think Mistwalker can push MS over the top in Japan, or will they remain niche? And if they do remain niche, will Mistwalker continue to give the 360 exclusivity, or will they port to the PS3?

[Liquidize105]

Japanese games happen to have universal appeal, western games don't. It's the subject matter and various artistic titbits.

Japan has become less imortant in the recent decade, but it's still a mecca. Doesn't matter if they're racist/xenophobic/nationalistic (which are all baseless), if MS wants to do Japanese business, they have to do it on their terms. Or they have to give western games the same universal appeal Japanese games have.

[spacerat100]

I'll admit Japan is the most racist place I've ever been (bars that say "no round eye!") and I grew up in south east texas... but I'm not sure if racism would really apply to video game systems. I think it's more likey they simply get them because they've always gotten sony and nintendo systems. I remember back when I had a nintendo I'd have never bought a sega system, it would be blasphmey!

[jacktion]

The Japanese are not xenophobic american-hating bastards. That is ridiculous. The 360 just has a bunch of doggy games there. They don't like the same type of games that we do and frankly they are not going to spend a lot of money on a half-assed system with shitty games from a company with a loser record in the games business. MS is a good company but they have the smell of losers in the Japanese gaming world. They saw how the xbox did and the kind of support that MS gave that system and people are skeptical that this will be any different. And with good reason. Because so far it has gotten shit for support. If I was Japanese I'd look at the 360 and say, "wow, it is expensive and the games suck. I'll wait for PS3." You can't blame them or try to insult them by saying they are racist. That is so stupid.
If some half-assed games system came out here with shitty games would we buy it? No. The closest parallel I can conjure up is the Gizmodo. It is from some scandanavian company. Do american's hate scandinavians? No. Do you think that a bunch of scandanavian forums are crying about how American's are racist and won't buy there system? No. So grow up and get over it. If MS put out a good system with good games then the Japanese would buy it. That hasn't happened so what are you crying about?

[Xerxes]

VIVA PINATA for the save?!?

[Montolio]

Will MS ever crack the (arguably) most important gaming market in the world?Wait...I thought Europe was the new battleground ;)

I don't want them to "crack" Japan. Microsoft needs a tough target like Japan to keep it hungry and working. You don't want them to put the Xbox franchise on autopilot like they did with say Office for the past decade. That's the kind of mediocre product I don't want to see as a customer, but even that is getting better now. To get back on point, Microsoft is still very early in understanding what it needs to do there IMO.

From my time in Japan I noticed that the general culture there isn't much different than ours when it comes to shopping. The customers there appreciate popular branding and more importantly, good and high-quality merchandise at the same rate as we do in the US - they just, for lack of a better word, seem to move to something faster and stay with it a little longer. When sales are strong, they can be tremendous and make a impact across the global marketplace i.e. Nintendo's DS.

We tend to paint certain parts of the world with a very broad brush and it would be nice to see a lot less of it here.

Just my thoughts.

[TrackZero]

Japanese games happen to have universal appeal, western games don't. It's the subject matter and various artistic titbits.


I'd dis/agree with that. There's plenty of Japanese games that don't fly in the rest of the world.

Those that do though, are due to the art styles are usually based of animation/cartoons. They don't often go for realism. Meaning parents are much more likely to buy those titles for kids.

I don't believe it has anything to do with gameplay. Gameplay I've always found a neutral terroritory worldwide, despite what country is making a game.

[TrackZero]

I don't want them to "crack" Japan. Microsoft needs a tough target like Japan to keep it hungry and working. You don't want them to put the Xbox franchise on autopilot like they did with say Office for the past decade. That's the kind of mediocre product I don't want to see as a customer, but even that is getting better now. To get back on point, Microsoft is still very early in understanding what it needs to do there IMO.

Just my thoughts.

Agreed. I'd like to see MS get some moderate success in Japan (15% of the market maybe?), but I'd actually kind of be sad to see them break up that market. I'm sure they'll eventually get at least noticed in that market once they have more and more Japanese developed titles come out, price cutting and just keep trying to get more share.

[Evil Avnovice]

Some of Microsoft's japanese content (DOA 4) got delayed and missed its initial launch window, and I'm not seeing too much in their lineup that corrects this mistake.

They'll probably continue to have the exact same problem with the 360. As a user myself, I'm going through the same thing with MS's new system as I did with the Xbox: There's nothing in its library to catch my interest, but there's usually a game or two that I come across that makes the system worthwhile for me.

Examples:

Xbox: Ninja Gaiden, Panzer Dragoon Orta
Xbox 360: Call of Duty 2, The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

And like before, the 360's lack of japanese content and universal appeal keep it from being more successful.

[TrackZero]

And like before, the 360's lack of japanese content and universal appeal keep it from being more successful.

Define "universal appeal". You don't think the 360 is going to dominate in the rest of the world ouside of Japan? (Not to argue it, I just want to hear your thoughts.)

[Evil Avnovice]

Define "universal appeal". You don't think the 360 is going to dominate in the rest of the world ouside of Japan? (Not to argue it, I just want to hear your thoughts.)

To put it in one way, I didn't mean universal appeal as far as being a success worldwide, but more for the games they offer. Nintendo, Sony, some third-party companies have some sort of franchise or game that is popular with certain gamers or is one of those titles that just about anyone has heard of.(Metal Gear Solid, The Legend of Zelda, Katamari Damacy, etc.)

I think it's this problem that Microsoft should work on. Don't get me wrong, I try whatever demos are available on 360 Live that I like/dislike, but my tastes run more on the japanese side, and I'm finicky on what games hold my interest. But that's the old-school in me talking...

[easi]

I'd dis/agree with that. There's plenty of Japanese games that don't fly in the rest of the world.

Those that do though, are due to the art styles are usually based of animation/cartoons. They don't often go for realism. Meaning parents are much more likely to buy those titles for kids.

I don't believe it has anything to do with gameplay. Gameplay I've always found a neutral terroritory worldwide, despite what country is making a game.

That logic is rubbish. Katamari might have had a cartoony art style, but the gameplay was solid and most gamers bought it for THEMSELVES. And Katamari could never have been born from a Western mind.

That said, the creator turned out to be an asshole, so Japan can keep him.

[Serapth]

Wow, the amount of Japanese penis envy in the gaming world blows my fucking mind.

News flash... YES Japan is a racist culture... moreso then almost any you will encounter. But its not a KKK type racism as we in the west have become used to, its culturally imbred. But, dont worry, its for the most part not aimed at us westerners... but ask a Japanese person what they have been raised to think of... say... the Chinese... or the Vietness. But funny enough, so many westerners seem to have this anime enduced hardon about all things Japanese, they forgive everything.

[EvilBob46]

But, dont worry, its for the most part not aimed at us westerners... but ask a Japanese person what they have been raised to think of... say... the Chinese...

What have the Chinese been raised to think of the Japanese?

[Serapth]

What have the Chinese been raised to think of the Japanese?

Hey, I never once said racism was solely Japans fault... im just saying to these people claiming Japan isnt racist or xenophobic, to get the fuck over themselves...

[rezzinator]

There's lots of sweeping generalizations that can be made about various cultures and their preferance for certain types of games/genres. Personally I thought Halo was an overhyped piece of crap with mediocre gameplay, but then I own a computer and a mouse, so I'm biased in that regard. But the "american" populace at large seems to believe it was the second coming of christ. I disliked a good portion of Final Fantasy X, but the "japanese" loved it and it's pop-esque characters so much that it became the first Final Fantasy game to actually spawn a sequel with the same characters and general storyline. What it comes down to though, is that we have to import games from Japan to get the quirky games here, and they have to import the FPS games there. So then it becomes a contest of who actually plays those games. The most vocal of fanboys and 13 year old "lolz headshot" ADD kids go on and on and on about how awesome this and that fps game are, how groundbreaking the dynamics on a ragdoll with it's head splattered against a wall look as the corpse tumbles down stairs. That's the stereotypical US player as seen by a good chunk of the world market.

Don't get all up in arms though, the Japanese have their "kawai!~" jpop rpg playing emo kid with a sword he couldn't possibly f'n carry with a love for the most inane minigames and badger/cat/squirrel hentaii girls ever. There's the aforementioned stereotype on japanese gamers. In reality, however, people tend to buy systems when the games are good, appeal to their personal tastes and has the prospects for more games they wish to play. The 360 currently (especially on boards such as these) has the entirely supported image of the sports/fps console. What games are people talking the most about? Gears of War, Halo 3. There's simply not enough hype on the xbox fanboy forums for non-fps/sports games, too much emphasis is spent on the games the system is already strong in. Conversely, the games that seem to be the most hyped for the PS3 are Final Fantasy 13 and MGS4. Of course, that could be because this site is -heavily- biased towards all things xbox and halo 3/gears of war are simply on the majority of the Evil Avatar reader's thoughts. But compare the amount of fps coverage and "hype" to the non, and you'll see the PS3 figures in quite a bit of the non-fps conversations more heavily than the 360.

Fanboyism aside, price aside, technical specs aside, controller shape and all the non-game related issues thrown out the window, the 360 simply doesn't have enough "games" to warrant a japanese player who doesn't like FPS/sports games to purchase it. Unless Blue Dragon/Last Odyssey are super breakout all encompassing hits that make the system a must buy. And with the pricetag of 300+ for 1-2 games, that choice isn't even a choice for most. The PS3, if it follows the ps2/1 (since the 360 is -definitely- following the xbox in style, implimentation and game choices) will be the reverse of that situation. It has nothing to do with xenophobic tendancies, it has to do with what people want to play. And if the majority of japan doesn't like console fps/sports games, MS simply won't be able to move systems there. The same exact issue they had with the Xbox.

Good to see they learned from previous mistakes in that market.

[ElPresidente]

God I hope that's never the case. If America was the end-all and be-all of games we'd be playing nothing but football and first-person shooters.

...and RPGs and RTSs and simulations and stealth titles and MMOs and adventure games and platformers and... should I stop now.

I'm an Australian, I'm duty bound to make smart arse remarks regarding America at any given moment however the US game development community is reponsible for a LOT more than football and FPS titles. I've been gaming for over 20 years and a good 90% of my favoured gaming experiences did not come from Japan but came from the US.

The USA is not the most important market for gaming, despite what your fragile ego requires you to believe. Of all the people who buy an Xbox in the USA, how many will also buy only Halo or Madden or some other mundane franchise? In Japan, gamers are far more likely to buy a large number of different titles, of course that means actually having games they want to play.

Now move along.

Ph34r the otaku.

Yes Japan is an important market and yes it is because, as a culture, they have a stronger acceptance of video gaming as a legitimate leisure activity.

However there are still a lot of video gamers in Japan who will only buy one or two games (say Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest). Just as there are a lot of gamers in the US and other western nations who voraciously consume game after game after game.

I get so tired of this whole "Japan is where it is at" way of thinking. There are some fantastic titles to come out of Japan and it IS an important market (so is the US and so if Europe... alas my poor old country isn't. :() but it is one market of many. You can lose Japan and win overall. Japan may be a big market but the market is in no way larger than the rest of the world combined and unfortunately the majority of those markets that aren't Japanese tend to have more Westernised gaming tastes.

Yes Japan is important but please, lets look at it in context.

Japanese games happen to have universal appeal, western games don't. It's the subject matter and various artistic titbits.

That's a pretty broad generalisation there Liquidize. Bar titles like Final Fantasy, Zelda and Mario most Japanese games don't figure in the mindseye of your average Western gamer. The reason titles such as the above do is because those are the games that 'made' the console market they are associated with. It is less because of broader appeal and more because they are proven brands within the console market.

If it were the case that Japanese games had universal appeal then we would see a lot more Japanese 'hits' make their way to the West, which is invariably the opposite of what they really do.

[Nintendo Revolution]

If they had no reason to buy the first Xbox, many will believe they have no reason to buy the 360. A lot of the reason for low sales is just the fact that it's a continuation of a console that they didn't care for in the first place.

[ElPresidente]

This is true. Hence why Blue Dragon, et al as so important for Microsoft. It is their chance to say to the Japanese market "Look... we do more than DOAX alright!"

[bean19]

I find the honesty of Microsoft regarding the Japanese release refreshing. Also, I'm glad that they correctly indicate that the reason their system doesn't do well in Japan is that the Xbox did not make games that appealled to Japanese gamers. They are correct that it is very important for the Xbox to have a large number of RPGs made for it.

As far as the whole crap debate on whether or not the Japanese are xenophobes, we've had it a million times, and I trust the various posters from Japan that have said that it isn't nationalism but that people just have negative brand recognition with the Xbox because it was this expensive big and ugly console that didn't have the games they wanted. To the Japanese, the Xbox was the same way that we view that horrible mobile phone/videogame player thing.

[TrackZero]

That logic is rubbish. Katamari might have had a cartoony art style, but the gameplay was solid and most gamers bought it for THEMSELVES. And Katamari could never have been born from a Western mind.

That said, the creator turned out to be an asshole, so Japan can keep him.

I never said the gameplay was bad. I said gameplay isn't a seperating issue between developers worldwide. Japans gaming product is their style.

And Katamari didn't sell that well, aside from us hardcore gamers.

[TrackZero]

I think it's this problem that Microsoft should work on. Don't get me wrong, I try whatever demos are available on 360 Live that I like/dislike, but my tastes run more on the japanese side, and I'm finicky on what games hold my interest. But that's the old-school in me talking...

Hey, I'd like to see it to. Though I'm not much of a JRPG fan (FF7 killed it for me), I do enjoy many of their other genres.

[F3nyx]

... And Katamari could never have been born from a Western mind.Um, what leads you to say that? I think you might be overestimating the culture gap a little.

The Japanese are not xenophobic american-hating bastards. That is ridiculous. Hey, I never once said racism was solely Japans fault... im just saying to these people claiming Japan isnt racist or xenophobic, to get the fuck over themselves...These are both dead on. Japan's xenophobia isn't really relevant to this discussion -- as a Western company, Microsoft is getting rejected for completely different reasons -- but it's very real.

[Laughing_Penguin]

Japanese games happen to have universal appeal, western games don't. It's the subject matter and various artistic titbits.


Exactly. Because there isn't a single man, woman, or child who plays video games that doesn't constantly obsess over dating sims where the object is to see some anime girl's panties. Or maybe some thrilling train simulation action. And who doesn't love Pachinko?

Just remember that for every great game from Japan that sees export and 'universal appeal', there are dozens, possibly hundreds of games that never leave the island, with damn good reason. Japan's main claim to video game dominance is that the modern gaming market really did originate there, even though both the US and Europe have become larger markets, with considerably more room for growth.

With the change in the market, you also see a shift in the nationalities of the more influential developers. Look at some of the more popular developers at the moment: Rockstar, Vivendi/Universal, Naughty Dog, Bethsheda, EA... those are off the top of my head. I'm sure if I bothered to look at current release lists I can find many other top-tier game developers that are not from Japan and not tied directly to any console.

Japan *was* the most important market in videogames until gaming really took off globally, now other regions have leapt ahead, both in terms of market size, potential and actual market growth, and influential development houses. I wouldn't say Japan isn't important at all, but it really has taken a secondary position in many important ways.

[NonSoft]

Yep, heavy use of cinematic cutscenes sure is innovative gameplay.

At no point did I ever say heavy use of cinematic cutscenes qualified as innovative gameplay, infact I never even used the word innovative in my post. What I did say though, and what you were apparently unable to comprehend is that their use of FMV certainly spurred other companies to do the same with their RPGs. Like it or not, it was an influential feature that many companies have since imitated.

[ElPresidente]

Just remember that for every great game from Japan that sees export and 'universal appeal', there are dozens, possibly hundreds of games that never leave the island, with damn good reason.

*sniff* I said that. No one loves me. :P

Actually this is just a QFT disguised as a sook. :D

apan's main claim to video game dominance is that the modern gaming market really did originate there, even though both the US and Europe have become larger markets, with considerably more room for growth.

I'd like to add one word to correct that.

apan's main claim to video game dominance is that the modern console gaming market really did originate there, even though both the US and Europe have become larger markets, with considerably more room for growth.

I think it is an important distinction. Japan has had next to no influence on the PC gaming market. Japan's importance is limited to consoles, in the PC arena they are nothing. Europe and the US defined the PC gaming market. Yeah I get my pants in a bunch over this since all my fav games are PC based despite being a fairly heavy consumer of console titles. *see sig*

[Xerxes]

Interesting take on it... *with pictures*
http://blog.wired.com/games/index.blog?entry_id=1509544

[Evil Avnovice]

Hey, I'd like to see it to. Though I'm not much of a JRPG fan (FF7 killed it for me), I do enjoy many of their other genres.

I can say the same thing myself about western-developed games. I'm a console gamer, but the very few I've been exposed to (Baludur's Gate: Dark Alliance, Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion) have left me with a good impression and were instant favorites to me. If more of these types of games were to make themselves available to console, I wouldn't have a problem opening myself to the western market.

[Draft]

And that is the real issue with the 360. A very good friend of mine Manages our local EB, and has told me several times that while Xbox 360 sales are ok corporate wide no one is really buying anything besides Madden 07, new games like Prey, Over G Fighters and even Chromehounds are basically sitting on the shelf, which makes the 360 a damn expensive Football simulator.

What is moving are Refurbished Xbox's, PS-2 and Game Cubes, why? Low price and tons of games. And if you look at what’s coming down the pike for 360, there is nothing really that earth shattering. Yeah, yeah Halo3 and Gears of War...while these will do okay sales wide I just don't see any break out Titles that defines the Xbox 360 being developed.If you're going to spread FUD, you should at least make it not so easy to disprove.

June NPD numbers

360 HITMAN: BLOOD MONEY $10,001,800 167,540
360 ELDER SCROLLS IV: OBLIVION $4,702,624 78,955
360 TOM CLANCY'S GHOST RECON: ADVANCED WARFI $4,604,493 77,378
360 FIFA WORLD CUP 2006 $4,121,255 69,399
360 FIGHT NIGHT ROUND 3 $3,687,363 61,852
360 TABLE TENNIS $2,355,249 59,357
360 MOTO GP 06 $3,508,009 58,716
360 CALL OF DUTY 2 $3,105,586 54,410
360 BATTLEFIELD 2: MODERN COMBAT $2,661,045 44,615
360 BURNOUT REVENGE $1,546,880 39,765
360 TIGER WOODS PGA TOUR 06 $1,349,621 35,238
360 MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL 2K6 $1,981,999 33,321
360 OVER G FIGHTERS $1,823,834 30,520
360 NBA LIVE 06 $1,100,700 28,017
360 MADDEN NFL 06 $1,020,761 26,840
360 PROJECT GOTHAM 3 $1,233,131 25,915
360 X-MEN: THE OFFICIAL GAME $1,520,882 25,797
360 NEED SPEED: MOST WANTED $1,475,913 24,834
360 FAR CRY: INSTINCTS PREDATOR $1,192,534 20,010
360 FIFA SOCCER 06 $790,064 19,581
360 NBA 2K6 $726,173 19,049
360 TOMB RAIDER: LEGEND $1,064,073 18,098
360 BLAZING ANGELS: SQUADRONS OF WWII $1,058,816 17,741
360 FINAL FANTASY XI ONLINE $786,696 16,073
360 THE OUTFIT $637,837 15,894
360 DEAD OR ALIVE 4 $896,312 15,304
360 TOP SPIN 2 $600,385 15,069
360 DYNASTY WARRIORS 5: EMPIRES $553,733 13,935
360 PERFECT DARK ZERO $598,095 12,905
360 FULL AUTO $558,086 12,400
360 KAMEO: ELEMENTS OF POWER $463,099 9,637
360 CONDEMNED: CRIMINAL ORIGINS $489,872 9,121
360 QUAKE 4 $435,665 7,721
360 ELDER SCROLLS IV: OBLIVION CE $469,430 6,769
360 TONY HAWK AMERICAN WASTELAND $317,550 5,877
360 PERFECT DARK ZERO LTD ED $314,908 5,694
360 NHL 2K6 $244,548 5,680
360 COLLEGE HOOPS 2K6 $208,822 5,344
360 KING KONG: PETER JACKSON'S $202,821 5,055
360 AMPED 3 $183,955 4,678
360 GUN $244,394 4,455
360 RUMBLE ROSES XX $249,088 4,186
360 RIDGE RACER 6 $159,267 3,805

June Total $65,247,368 1,216,550

[ElPresidente]

I can say the same thing myself about western-developed games. I'm a console gamer, but the very few I've been exposed to (Baludur's Gate: Dark Alliance, Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion) have left me with a good impression and were instant favorites to me. If more of these types of games were to make themselves available to console, I wouldn't have a problem opening myself to the western market.

So called JRPGs (damn I hate that word, they aren't even remotely RPGs) are very different to the Western sort and even then game style varies greatly within the Western understanding of the genre.

RPGs - Torment, Fallout, Arcanum - These are the closest to true RPGs there are. They make a concerted effort to let the player control their fate. It is all about creating a character in terms of their influence in the world and the world reacting to their actions.

Action RPGs - Diablo, Titan Quest, Sacred - The only reason these end up getting included is because of the fact they use stats to determine character growth. This doesn't make them bad games but considering you can't influence the world around you they are nothing more than action games where stats replace powerups.

Story driven quest based games - Lets face it, Oblivion, while a great game, is really just GTA in Tolkein clothing. It is a bunch of quests in a large world... just like stats, this does not make an RPG make.

Those three styles of game all fit with in the Western notion of an RPG and all three are very different to the turn based battle games that make an RPG in the Japanese sense of the term.

Oh how I mourn for the days when in Western lingo an RPG was nothing more than a attempt to recreate pen and paper RPGs and their structures in a digital environment (ie: Real RPGs)

[Wonka]

That logic is rubbish. Katamari might have had a cartoony art style, but the gameplay was solid and most gamers bought it for THEMSELVES. And Katamari could never have been born from a Western mind.

LOL. Who is the racist here? Hmmmm???


Japan's main claim to video game dominance is that the modern gaming market really did originate there, even though both the US and Europe have become larger markets, with considerably more room for growth.

So that whole Atari experience in my youth was what? A Hallucination?

Or MAYBE you just don't choose to know all your gaming history? I can understand this though since the average lifespan of a penguin is just 15-20 years, so you probably were just not alive back then...

[ElPresidente]

He did say modern. In my mind that means the most recent era of console gaming (see my earlier post regarding PC games) which is distinct from the previous era (late 70s - early 80s) that preceeded the big video game crash. In other words we're talking post Atari.

[Zeal]

Thank God no one cares what Japan thinks anymore.

[theguido]

Some stuff about RPG's.

All I have to say about that is in my sig.

I may be rare in this way, but I find both WRPG's and JRPG's entertaining. Unfortunately the last two big examples of WRPG's (Oblivion, Fable) have been unbelievably disappointing to say the least. But I still think Morrowind is one the best games ever made.

[easi]

Thank God no one cares what Japan thinks anymore.

Go back to masturbating over Halo 3 news.

[balamoor]

If you're going to spread FUD, you should at least make it not so easy to disprove.

June NPD numbers

It's not FUD silly compare those numbers with the Xobx launch titles around the same time, 360 games are not moving nowhere near like MS hoped they would and it's not all due to the unavailability of the systems last year. 360 have even started a platinum title line way earlier than it did with the original Xbox. Business Week even did an article on it a couple months back.

I understand it is your mission to refute everything I type but in this case your wrong and you truly need other hobbies.

Now I’m going to let you get the last word in so you can feel better about yourself.

[ElPresidente]

I may be rare in this way, but I find both WRPG's and JRPG's entertaining. Unfortunately the last two big examples of WRPG's (Oblivion, Fable) have been unbelievably disappointing to say the least. But I still think Morrowind is one the best games ever made.

Feel the same way. Just because I'm anal about definitions doesn't mean the fact I personally exclude certain games from certain classifications is an indication of like or dislike.

[Draft]

It's not FUD silly compare those numbers with the Xobx launch titles around the same time, 360 games are not moving nowhere near like MS hoped they would and it's not all due to the unavailability of the systems last year. 360 have even started a platinum title line way earlier than it did with the original Xbox. Business Week even did an article on it a couple months back.

I understand it is your mission to refute everything I type but in this case your wrong and you truly need other hobbies.

Now I’m going to let you get the last word in so you can feel better about yourself.I don't even know why you bothered to reply without some sort of figures to back yourself up.

[Wonka]

He did say modern. In my mind that means the most recent era of console gaming (see my earlier post regarding PC games) which is distinct from the previous era (late 70s - early 80s) that preceeded the big video game crash. In other words we're talking post Atari.

Yeah he did. But his point was still to claim that Japan had somehow defined what it means to game on a console, as if previous generations of hardware had somehow never existed.

I think that this claim is pretty f&$*ing ridiculous.

Japan has NOT single handedly created console gaming what it is today. They took something that was already great and then they made it better.

This notion that somehow the Japanese are somehow naturally better at making games is just preposterous. I for one am sick of people claiming or implying this. It's absurd. Maybe Japanese culture makes games that YOU like. That's fine. But that does not mean that Japan is the Gods gift to gaming for all time.

The thing that is pissing people off here is NOT racism from Japan. It's racism from the pro-japan-fanboys.

[ldi222]

Japan has been disproportionately important in the console gaming market for the last two and a half decades and I for one am euphoric to see it put back into its proper perspective.

[NonSoft]

Japan has NOT single handedly created console gaming what it is today. They took something that was already great and then they made it better.


Actually they took something that was dead and brought it back to life. Big difference.


This notion that somehow the Japanese are somehow naturally better at making games is just preposterous. I for one am sick of people claiming or implying this. It's absurd. Maybe Japanese culture makes games that YOU like. That's fine. But that does not mean that Japan is the Gods gift to gaming for all time.


That is completely subjective. I do believe that as a whole Japanese games are better, however that is because I tend to like JRPGs and such. If Japanese games tend to appeal to me more than western games, clearly I would think that Japanese games as a whole are better. I'm not sure how that thought is absurd, unless you mean Japanese people are born with the skill to make better games.



The thing that is pissing people off here is NOT racism from Japan. It's racism from the pro-japan-fanboys.

It is just as bad as this:


Thank God no one cares what Japan thinks anymore.

Sure...

[bean19]

It's not FUD silly compare those numbers with the Xobx launch titles around the same time, 360 games are not moving nowhere near like MS hoped they would and it's not all due to the unavailability of the systems last year.

Dude. . . someone even pointed out the NPD numbers that show that the X360 is selling a ton of games (even in freaking June).

Also, there are frequent stories about the high attach rate that the X360 is enjoying.

While you might want to start a rumor (or continue spreading a rumor) based on the X360's supposedly not doing well, you are going to have a lot of trouble spreading the bullshit on Evil Avatar where people are generally (yourself excepted) very knowledgable or smart enough to question sources.

[Heretic Machine]

Just want to point this out: Japanese is not a race. Defining ethnicities as a seperate race is questionable to begin with, but Japanese isn't even an ethnicity. It is a nationality. Like American is a nationality. If someone hates all Americans, they are not racist, because American isn't a race. It is a nationality. You can only be racist against a race. Not a gender, not a nationality, not a style of clothing. Only a race.

[easi]

That psychobabble doesn't fly in the real world.

[ElPresidente]

Depends on the useage of the word race of course. ;)

One of the accepted dictionary definiations of the word is 'A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution.'

It may not be 'scientifically correct' but even then science has had a hard enough time defining race on a geneological level.

[Heretic Machine]

Depends on the useage of the word race of course. ;)

One of the accepted dictionary definiations of the word is 'A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution.'

It may not be 'scientifically correct' but even then science has had a hard enough time defining race on a geneological level.

Ya, but think about this: If you classify Japanese as a race, then you have to also count the child born of two foreign imigrants who've migrated to Japan. That doesn't make any damn sense.

Personally, for me, they call it the human race for a reason, and that is as defined as it needs to be.

[pacman]

VIVA PINATA for the save?!?

I know I'll be buying it as well. :D ...it could end up helping MS more than they know

[Wonka]

Actually they took something that was dead and brought it back to life. Big difference.



That is completely subjective. I do believe that as a whole Japanese games are better, however that is because I tend to like JRPGs and such. If Japanese games tend to appeal to me more than western games, clearly I would think that Japanese games as a whole are better. I'm not sure how that thought is absurd, unless you mean Japanese people are born with the skill to make better games.




It is just as bad as this:



Sure...


If it was the case that console gaming was actually dead in the US, then nobody would have bought an NES when they launched it here. As it was, those things FLEW off the shelf. What America lacked in the 80's was a business with the BALLS to launch a fricking product.

Also, at that time there were PCs that connected to TVs which were somehwere between a PC and a console. Anyone remember the C64? Maybe I am the only one. But gaming was far from dead over here. FAR from dead.

My point is that Nintendo did not save gaming, they simply profited by making a product at a time when people wanted one... Good for them. But they are not "heros" they are businessmen. Keep it straight.

As for the racism, race has pretty much ALWAYS been culturally defined. And yes, there are bigoted prejudicial people here too. That does not make the assertion that games from one place or another are inherently more brilliant any more defensible. As you said, its all completely subjective. You like japanese games? Good for you! That does not make them "better".

[NonSoft]

If it was the case that console gaming was actually dead in the US, then nobody would have bought an NES when they launched it here. As it was, those things FLEW off the shelf. What America lacked in the 80's was a business with the BALLS to launch a fricking product.

Also, at that time there were PCs that connected to TVs which were somehwere between a PC and a console. Anyone remember the C64? Maybe I am the only one. But gaming was far from dead over here. FAR from dead.


Console gaming was most definitely dead. The reason companies didn't have the "BALLS" to launch a product was because previous companies who had went bankrupt. Now, was the crash due to no interest in consoles? Not necessarily, but either way it took courage to launch another console in NA and for that Nintendo deserves credit.


My point is that Nintendo did not save gaming, they simply profited by making a product at a time when people wanted one... Good for them. But they are not "heros" they are businessmen. Keep it straight.


One of the things that gamers craved was a quality game library and Nintendo delivered that. By introducing an approval system Nintendo limited the amount of extremely poor titles that plagued previous consoles (which is one of the reasons they failed so miserably). So, in a sense Nintendo did save gaming, although as you said the interest of the public in games was always there.


As you said, its all completely subjective. You like japanese games? Good for you! That does not make them "better".

:confused:

Quite the contradiction there.

[Xerxes]

I know I'll be buying it as well. :D ...it could end up helping MS more than they know


Well it's Rare. I don't know if i'm going crazy for it since they haven't been Rare for a while. The polish they use to give everything is gone(or has been for sometime.) But from the way some people were describing odd ball games Japanese lean toward, something totally insane like living pinatas could spark interest. As far as I know the pinatas don't even have a real goal. It's fool of ton spasmatic colors, so who knows. Might be a hit in Japan.

[ldi222]

Was the C64 a console or a computer? It had joystick ports, a cartridge slot and a closed architecture yet also included a keyboard and disk drive. Either way it had the better games.

[Wonka]

Console gaming was most definitely dead. The reason companies didn't have the "BALLS" to launch a product was because previous companies who had went bankrupt. Now, was the crash due to no interest in consoles? Not necessarily, but either way it took courage to launch another console in NA and for that Nintendo deserves credit.



One of the things that gamers craved was a quality game library and Nintendo delivered that. By introducing an approval system Nintendo limited the amount of extremely poor titles that plagued previous consoles (which is one of the reasons they failed so miserably). So, in a sense Nintendo did save gaming, although as you said the interest of the public in games was always there.



:confused:

Quite the contradiction there.


Console gaming was not dead. As long as the desire is there, SOMEONE will step in to make a buck selling it. The fact that American businesses were too cowardly does not make Nintendo a hero. It makes them opportunists. And Nintendo had already launched the console successfully in Japan, so the idea that it might also sell here where people had previously bought an awful lot of Ataris was not really all THAT brave. They did not save gaming because it did not need to be saved. SOMEONE was GOING to make a console, and cash in big. They just did it 1st. The one great thing that they DID do you mentioned already. They looked at what killed Atari (lack of standards) and then they corrected that. Good for them and their evolutionary business tactics. They learned from the mistakes of their forebears. They looked at the pile of dead bodies outside the doorway to "non-standards-ville" and then they did NOT go there. It was a good move, but it was hardly rocket science...



As for the contradiction, do you remember saying this?:
That is completely subjective. I do believe that as a whole Japanese games are better, however that is because I tend to like JRPGs and such. If Japanese games tend to appeal to me more than western games, clearly I would think that Japanese games as a whole are better. I'm not sure how that thought is absurd, unless you mean Japanese people are born with the skill to make better games.

Well that is not exactly what I meant, nor does it seem to be what you meant, but it does seem to be what other people mean (and hence it WAS what I was adressing). And it is absurd. Japanese people are NOT born with the skill to make better games. And it annoys me to no end that people think that. And it's even more annoying when they use the fact that they happen to like final fantasy as evidence for such ridiculous claims. So I agree, that it IS subjective. Moreover, it would actually undermine my point if I were to say otherwise.

[NonSoft]

Console gaming was not dead. As long as the desire is there, SOMEONE will step in to make a buck selling it. The fact that American businesses were too cowardly does not make Nintendo a hero. It makes them opportunists. And Nintendo had already launched the console successfully in Japan, so the idea that it might also sell here where people had previously bought an awful lot of Ataris was not really all THAT brave. They did not save gaming because it did not need to be saved. SOMEONE was GOING to make a console, and cash in big. They just did it 1st. The one great thing that they DID do you mentioned already. They looked at what killed Atari (lack of standards) and then they corrected that. Good for them and their evolutionary business tactics. They learned from the mistakes of their forebears. They looked at the pile of dead bodies outside the doorway to "non-standards-ville" and then they did NOT go there. It was a good move, but it was hardly rocket science...


I do think that you are atleast partially correct. However, I do think it took a bit more courage than you give them credit for. Consumers were certainly interested in gaming, but for PCs instead of consoles, stores had no interest in reserving shelf space for consoles, and console gaming in general was basically considered dead. There was little to no activity in the console industry from 1983 - 1986 (possibly late '85) when the NES launched. That is 2 - 3 years of PC gaming gaining more and more supporters. Considering what they were up against, I wouldn't exactly call it an ideal situation.

I'm sure eventually someone else would have attempted to launch another console in the US, but who is to say they would have been successful? They may have fallen victim to similar pitfalls that previous companies encountered, or found new ones.


Well that is not exactly what I meant, nor does it seem to be what you meant, but it does seem to be what other people mean (and hence it WAS what I was adressing). And it is absurd. Japanese people are NOT born with the skill to make better games. And it annoys me to no end that people think that. And it's even more annoying when they use the fact that they happen to like final fantasy as evidence for such ridiculous claims. So I agree, that it IS subjective. Moreover, it would actually undermine my point if I were to say otherwise.

I see.
My point was only that because I tend to prefer jRPGs and other Japanese developed games, I do believe that historically they are better (opinion). However, I don't think that Japanese people have some intrinsic videogame development skill, nor do I believe that others aren't capable of making better games, that is just silly.

[ElPresidente]

One of the things that gamers craved was a quality game library and Nintendo delivered that. By introducing an approval system Nintendo limited the amount of extremely poor titles that plagued previous consoles (which is one of the reasons they failed so miserably).

Anyone who believes the 'Nintendo Seal of Quality' was only applied to games that exhibited quality in any form are bereft of memory I'm sorry to say.

I'm pretty sure that you will find that Wayne's World earned such a seal. The seal was nothing more than Nintendo's control over this particular marketing channel.

[NonSoft]

Anyone who believes the 'Nintendo Seal of Quality' was only applied to games that exhibited quality in any form are bereft of memory I'm sorry to say.

I'm pretty sure that you will find that Wayne's World earned such a seal. The seal was nothing more than Nintendo's control over this particular marketing channel.

All recent consoles have had this system in place, and while it certainly doesn't guarantee all games will great by any means it does prevent some completely terrible games and situations like this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.T._the_Extra-Terrestrial_%28Atari_2600%29)

It is well known that one of the major reasons why Atari and others failed was because of the numerous completely horrid games. Not only were they horrible games, they were loaded with bugs to the point of being all but unplayable and/or not even finished.

As I said before the current policies in place and Nintendo's "Seal of Approval" certainly don't ensure great games, but they tend to atleast provide a working and finished product.

Ofcourse there was also Superman 64 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman_64), so who knows. :D

[ElPresidente]

All recent consoles have had this system in place, and while it certainly doesn't guarantee all games will great by any means it does prevent some completely terrible games and situations like this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.T._the_Extra-Terrestrial_%28Atari_2600%29)

Far from it. The seal of quality is not some objective measure... it is simply a corporate approval. Had Atari had a seal of quality they would have slapped it on E.T. so fast it would have made your head spin. Keep in mind Atari had a lot banked on E.T. themselves, a quality seal would not have made this tragedy of gaming history incapable of occuring. These seals do nothing.

[NonSoft]

Far from it. The seal of quality is not some objective measure... it is simply a corporate approval. Had Atari had a seal of quality they would have slapped it on E.T. so fast it would have made your head spin. Keep in mind Atari had a lot banked on E.T. themselves, a quality seal would not have made this tragedy of gaming history incapable of occuring. These seals do nothing.

I disagree, and I'm not the only one.


Nintendo was determined not to make the same mistakes in the U.S. that Atari had. Because of massive influxes of games (games that were regarded as some of the worst ever created), gaming had almost completely died out in America. Nintendo decided that to avoid facing the same problems, they would only allow games that received their "Seal of Quality" to be sold for the Famicom, using a chip called 10NES to "lockout" or prevent unlicensed games from working.



The company's policy of control over third parties came along from Japan, but there was an important addition: the Official Nintendo Seal of Quality, which at once proved to both retailers and consumers that the flood of garbage software that had more or less swept away the Atari 2600 would be firmly controlled by Nintendo. A large cause of the video-game crash of 1983-84 was that as more and more publishers sprung up to grab a quick buck churning out low-quality software for the popular game systems; consumers and retailers couldn't sort through the dreck. Through the Seal of Quality and the special security chip inside the NES that backed it up, Nintendo was able to keep a leash on its publishers and prevent this from happening again.


Of course, the Seal of Quality didn't keep bad games off of the system (refer back to the fact that Acclaim managed to publish 10 games a year for proof of this). What it did was give the NES an edge that resulted in a whole new way of doing business for consoles; while Nintendo was forced to relax its restrictions later in the NES's lifespan, the company created a business model that persists to this day. Sega's Genesis had its own seal, and so did the ill-fated TurboGrafx. While Sony and Microsoft don't have their own Seal of Quality imitators, the business model that the Seal represented for Nintendo is what drives the PlayStation 2 and Xbox.

Again, the seal may not have meant the game was great , as you can see in the last quote, however it did give Nintendo control over what was being published and prevented much of the trash that the Atari consoles saw.



Source 1 (http://archive.gamespy.com/articles/july03/25smartest/index16.shtml)

Source 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_crash_of_1983)

[ElPresidente]

Oh it gave Nintendo control, I'm not disagreeing with that. What I'm saying is that had Atari had such a seal it would not have prevented E.T. (Atari was 100% behind that piece of software) nor does a seal provide QA. It is marketing pure and simple.

Nintendo's strangle hold over publishers only meant that those who played ball got their games published. Nothing more, nothing less.

Also Wikipedia should never be used as a source of anything. :P

*edit*

However I will conceed it did limit the amount of no-name brand crap that did poison much of the Atari games catalogue.

[Laughing_Penguin]

Yeah he did. But his point was still to claim that Japan had somehow defined what it means to game on a console, as if previous generations of hardware had somehow never existed.

I think that this claim is pretty f&$*ing ridiculous.

Japan has NOT single handedly created console gaming what it is today. They took something that was already great and then they made it better.

This notion that somehow the Japanese are somehow naturally better at making games is just preposterous. I for one am sick of people claiming or implying this. It's absurd. Maybe Japanese culture makes games that YOU like. That's fine. But that does not mean that Japan is the Gods gift to gaming for all time.

The thing that is pissing people off here is NOT racism from Japan. It's racism from the pro-japan-fanboys.


I did not, at any time, make the claim that it was Japan that created console gaming, but defined *modern* gaming. While I admire your attempt to start an argument where there was none, my point was stated very clearly.

Console gaming was DEAD in the US post-Atari. Sure, the Colecovision made a good run at it, but anyone else who tried to make it work failed miserably. Many people still have vague memories of systems like Intellivision and Vectrex, and I even personally own both an Odyssey 2 and Bally Videocade (which had an arcade-perfect Wizard of Wor on it, but i'm getting off topic here). But holding these failed systems up as proof of how healthy console gaming was at the time is like saying the Jaguar is living proof of Atari's dominance in the console wars, or that Neo Geo seriously carved up the market for handheld gaming. Having some kind of product out there doesn't mean much if the product was a quantifiable failure.

I never claimed that I thought Japan was some kind of end-all, be-all for gaming (I think the start of my post pretty much trivialized much of what comes out of that region, but I suppose you skipped past that, along with the part later where I claimed that many of today's most influential developers are based in the US and Europe), but I don't see how you can deny that for many years, console gaming in the US boiled down to remembering how much we liked our Atari 2600. t wasn't until the NES hit stateside with a really agressive marketing campaign that the populace at large even thought about playing games on their TV again. Then came Sega and eventually Sony to build that market back up. These *Japanese* companies revitalized console gaming in the US, and pretty much set the stage for how consoles developed for many years. The market is evening out now, but to deny that Japan had any influence over the current market and mindset is simply delusional...