The State of RPGs: Xbox 360

[Jack B]

The State of RPGs: Xbox 360
Done with Oblivion? Bored of FFXI? Here's what's coming up on the X360 RPG front.

IGN talks about the new wave of RPG's coming out for the 360 here. (http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/716/716474p1.html)

Telling your friends you just bought an Xbox 360 wouldn't exactly indicate you'd just bought a machine with an RPG rich catalogue. As of right now, there's only one RPG available on the system, Bethesda's excellent The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, and one MMORPG, Square's Final Fantasy XI. However, over the next few years the perception of the Xbox 360 is certain to change. Though not all are high-profile titles such as Final Fantasy, Valkyrie Profile, or Dragon Quest, there are a surprising number of role-playing titles in development for Microsoft's sleek white machine.

Sony did have a tremendous advantage in the important RPG genre last gen. Will Sony have as big an advantage or an advantage at all this gen? Will they win the RPG war in Japan, but not in NA and Europe? Is the JRPG genre losing ground to the Western RPG's?

[askheaves]

Mass Effect looks wonderful and I'm excited to lose a year of my life to it.

[Goronmon]

At the least the 360 is looking better than its predecessor as far as RPGs are concerned, but thats not saying much.

Hopefully some of those will turn out to be great games.

[BigJonno]

As someone who really doesn't give a damn about Japanese "RPGs" (I find it hard to apply the term to them, to be honest) I thought the Xbox was by far the best console last generation in terms of RPGs.

[Jack B]

Umm...thanks for sharing? ;)


Goronmon, if you're note was about opinion in the news post. Point well taken. I edited it out.

[Intruder]

I am not really a big fan of JRPGs for some reason, though I did like Disgiea (sp?). I enjoy Ultima, Oblivion, Gothic, Bioware, Wizardry type stuff better. I don't know, I guess JRPGs dont have enough customization or don't make me feel like I am actually Role Playing. Also I dislike the punk attitude kid that is the usual main character of most of the JRPGs it seems.

[Zanzibar]

The X360 needs another KOTOR.

[Goronmon]

Goronmon, if you're note was about opinion in the news post. Point well taken. I edited it out.Haha, I couldn't help it. I don't necessarily dislike comments, I just found it funny you talked about your genre likes and dislikes in the news post. ;)

[Madhatter45]

The X360 needs another KOTOR.

A-fuckin-men.

[Norse]

I don't "get" most jRPG, and I've never been much of a RPG player. Still, Morrowind/Oblivion, Deus Ex, System Shock 2 and KOTOR are some of my all time favorites. Hopefully some of these games will end up on the same level. Mass Effect and BioShock sounds great, and will certainly find their way into my collection.

[Kefkataran]

There were even a couple I hadn't heard of! It's relieving to see there's a healthy number of RPGs coming to the 360. Hopefully some of them end up being pretty good to boot.

[PantherModern]

I'm burned out on JRPG's for the most part. The only ones that can keep my attention at all are the older FF titles (FF4 on GBA is totally rocking the casbah at the moment) and the Shadow Hearts series. I am working on SH: Covenant right now, and it is just as excellent as the first entry in the series. I need to pick up The New World (or whatever the third one was called), but I just don't have the time to play it. Prey will be sliding into my 360 as soon as I get home (replacing Burnout Revenge) and I don't know when it will come back out again.

It's all about the story with me where RPGs are concerned, and none of the ones coming out of Japan (except, obviously, those I have noted) have grabbed me in quite some time.

[51|RandoM]

KOTOR is an action game in my book, not an RPG. If I loosen up my definition of RPG to fit KOTOR into the genre, then I can fit just about every game with a protagonist into the genre.

[Savok]

JRPGs are losing a lot of ground simply because they never progress, they amount to basically the same game everytime with a few new twists added every now and then, quite usually bad ones.

Meanwhile, Western RPGs make use of every piece of new technology they can get their hands on, each generation adding what becomes vital elements to the genre.

That said, does FF have voice? Because I've been waiting and waiting and waiting for a MMOG to finally have fucking voice as a built-in feature so that people might actually use it.

[Kefkataran]

Prey will be sliding into my 360 as soon as I get home (replacing Burnout Revenge) and I don't know when it will come back out again.

It's all about the story with me where RPGs are concerned, and none of the ones coming out of Japan (except, obviously, those I have noted) have grabbed me in quite some time.

Not interested in FF12 at all, then? I haven't done much JRPGing in the last year or so myself, but I'm very much thinking that will draw me back in.

If I loosen up my definition of RPG to fit KOTOR into the genre, then I can fit just about every game with a protagonist into the genre.

Only if you're being EXTREMELY loose. There's still RPG elements of KOTOR that set it apart from other games beyond just having a protaganist who you control and 'roleplay'.

[Savok]

KOTOR is an action game in my book, not an RPG. If I loosen up my definition of RPG to fit KOTOR into the genre, then I can fit just about every game with a protagonist into the genre.
KOTOR is one of those rare games you actually roleplay in. If you're playing an evil guy, you won't pet that kitten, even if it does upgrade your armour.

[Kefkataran]

JRPGs are losing a lot of ground simply because they never progress, they amount to basically the same game everytime with a few new twists added every now and then, quite usually bad ones.

Meanwhile, Western RPGs make use of every piece of new technology they can get their hands on, each generation adding what becomes vital elements to the genre.

Your first quote actually sounds like the industry as a whole, if you ask me. I don't think Western RPGs "progress" any more than JRPGs do, and if it appears that they are right now it's more because there is slightly less of them in general. What technology does Oblivion, for example, use that's amazing progress for the genre? Better graphics? The Radiant AI stuff that almost everyone complained about not working how it was supposed to?

[The Bashar]

KOTOR was good times. It has more akin to Diablo than Ultima but it was still a fine game. I played through it three times. On the final play through my character was so powerful I soloed the whole game on hard.

[Jack B]

Haha, I couldn't help it. I don't necessarily dislike comments, I just found it funny you talked about your genre likes and dislikes in the news post. ;)

Yeah, I usually prefer opinions are left out of the original news posts and saved for posts in the thread.

My point was about the 'importance' of the RPG genre, which the article mentions. It could be the most important genre (I should look at some genre sales figures..), but I always find the replayability of most story based titles, RPG's, Adventure, FPS's etc, to be limited for me.

I'll play games that keep score and are skill based like Driving, Sports, FPS's online keep me coming back to improve my skill.

I've always wanted to love RPG's more and get excited about the thought of them, but almost always get bored and quit and RPG after 10-20 hours. It's a long haul to log 100 hours in an RPG for me.

The stories in the vast majority of video games are weak in comparision to books or movies. It's that, "has a video game ever made you cry?" question.

We've been waiting to games to take you away to another place for a long time and it works somewhat, but the game or character/skill/weapons advancement is what keeps me playing not the story in 90% of the cases.

[Kefkataran]

Yeah, I usually prefer opinions are left out of the original news posts and saved for posts in the thread.

It's long been one of Evil Avatar's "marks" that most news posts end with an italicized opinion. I don't get the backlash against this.

[Jack B]

It's long been one of Evil Avatar's "marks" that most news posts end with an italicized opinion. I don't get the backlash against this.

Yeah, it's not a big deal to me either way and an opinion can help start a conversation. I think another way to do that is with the type of questions I posed at the end of this news post.

Either way is fine for me. It seems a bit more professional if it's all about news and the thread is for the opinions, but it doesn't really matter much either way. It's all good. :)

[Lord Nerdious]

That said, does FF have voice? Because I've been waiting and waiting and waiting for a MMOG to finally have fucking voice as a built-in feature so that people might actually use it.

You can do voice through XBL, but no, it's not supported by the game.

[Savok]

Your first quote actually sounds like the industry as a whole, if you ask me. I don't think Western RPGs "progress" any more than JRPGs do, and if it appears that they are right now it's more because there is slightly less of them in general. What technology does Oblivion, for example, use that's amazing progress for the genre? Better graphics? The Radiant AI stuff that almost everyone complained about not working how it was supposed to?
Not so much the graphics as interaction, I see a trap, I can fire an arrow at it to set it off while I'm not in its way, I can actually interact with the environment, picking objects up and dragging them around. Radiant AI, though questionable, is still more then any overly scripted JRPG has ever done.

How many of them still have you walk up to a glinting object and pressing X?

[Savok]

It seems a bit more professional if it's all about news and the thread is for the opinions, but it doesn't really matter much either way. It's all good. :)
When the hell has anything here been professional?

[Eran Hawke]

I didn't know about most of these games and now I am really lookibg forward to most of them. Thanks for the awesome news post, I wouldn't check IGN any other way.

There are only a few RPGs that I play till the end. Skies of Arcadia takes the cake with the story and characters I care about. All others I get bored of except GBA RPGs. For some reason, I always manage to squeeze in time to play RPGs on the GameBoy Micro.

[Goronmon]

It's long been one of Evil Avatar's "marks" that most news posts end with an italicized opinion. I don't get the backlash against this.I didn't mean to "backlash". :(

[Metal Jesus]

I waited and bought my Xbox 360 because Oblivion finally shipped for it. It was the one game for the 360 I had to play. I also buy tons of RPG games in a year. Hopefully Japanese game developers will take that into consideration...

[51|RandoM]

That said, does FF have voice? Because I've been waiting and waiting and waiting for a MMOG to finally have fucking voice as a built-in feature so that people might actually use it.

DDO has voice built-in. Probably doesn't qualify as a MMOG, though, considering it is mostly instanced ala Guild Wars.

[Kefkataran]

Either way is fine for me. It seems a bit more professional if it's all about news and the thread is for the opinions, but it doesn't really matter much either way. It's all good.

That's true that it seems more professional, but considering it's random community members delivering the news, the site's not really about professionalism so much. :p


Not so much the graphics as interaction, I see a trap, I can fire an arrow at it to set it off while I'm not in its way, I can actually interact with the environment, picking objects up and dragging them around. Radiant AI, though questionable, is still more then any overly scripted JRPG has ever done.

I'm willing to agree with that, and it's a good point. That said, part of the problem is that JRPGs are story focused and western-style RPGs aren't. While I liked Oblivion's story quite a bit (they did some really smart things), it (as with most western RPGs) didn't come close to the depth or complexity that a tightly controlled JRPG story can have.

Of course plenty of JRPGs just have shite cliche stories too, so whatever.

I didn't mean to "backlash".

Ha. No worries, didn't mean you specifically. And disagreeing with the opinion presented is always valid and SHOULD happen. :p

[EvilBob46]

As someone who really doesn't give a damn about Japanese "RPGs" (I find it hard to apply the term to them, to be honest)

I love Western RPGs like Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment, and Oblivion...but I also greatly enjoy many of the Eastern variety, like Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy. If action RPGs like KOTOR count as RPGs, so do those games. They are just different types of RPG experiences. If you're completely biased one way as far as RPGs go and have a inflexible set of ideas as to what they should be like, obviously you're never going to enjoy the oher kind.

When it comes to Western RPGs vs. Eastern ones, I pity the people who've missed out on many great Role-Playing experiences by only playing one or the other.

[Savok]

I'm willing to agree with that, and it's a good point. That said, part of the problem is that JRPGs are story focused and western-style RPGs aren't. While I liked Oblivion's story quite a bit (they did some really smart things), it (as with most western RPGs) didn't come close to the depth or complexity that a tightly controlled JRPG story can have.

Of course plenty of JRPGs just have shite cliche stories too, so whatever.
Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment

[Kefkataran]

Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment

I'd agree if you add a '2' to Baldur's Gate, unless you're taking the series as a whole. But yep, those are exceptions to the rule. And many people complained about Planescape, despite still having more options than your average JRPG would, being more limiting than most Western RPGs.

[Kelegacy]

Mass Effect looks wonderful and I'm excited to lose a year of my life to it.
Or 12 hours. :)

[Jack B]

That said, does FF have voice? Because I've been waiting and waiting and waiting for a MMOG to finally have fucking voice as a built-in feature so that people might actually use it.

I know this is a hot topic too. Many don't want voice in MMORPG's, but I think Halo 2 style voice, where you only hear who is close by would be perfect.

It works in FPS's why not MMORPG's. That would likely suck me in. Sure your fantasy world 'could' be disturbed by the screaming kid, but just mute him/her.

Also, I believe it would be so much more immersive to travel with a group that you like and talk often about what you're experiencing without having to type and read all the time.

I would only group with people I enjoyed speaking with. Also, hearing smack talk from another group would add something as well. Now, you'd really want to go back and kick their butt.

I just watched The Big Lebowski this weekend. The German gang was a great example when they were in the parking lot talking smack. I could just see that in the new Marvel MMORPG or even the fantasy ones. Rivalries could start to develop... I remember those voices... I hate those guys!

In a town walking close to a conversation and hearing it is appealing to me. Also, sneaking up on a conversation would come into play as well. Lot's of immersive stuff becomes possible with voice instead of text from a zone...

[Cubfan]

I was a PC gamer before I moved to the consoles, and I think that's why JRPGs just don't float my boat. I'd be happy with an isometric, but not hack and slash, RPG for the 360. That'd be nice.

[Khash]

So I can actually hear people cyb0ring instead of just reading the text? awsome!

[Kelegacy]

It's long been one of Evil Avatar's "marks" that most news posts end with an italicized opinion. I don't get the backlash against this.
Because it's unnecessary and incites detouring from the actual newspots by way of someone's asshole comments. Most times.

If we're talking about how the PS3 will do this or that, and then an editor or contributor puts some openly inflammatory remark in italics, it's highly possible that we're not going to talk about the news, but instead focus on those idiot comments.

I just like to read the news sometimes. I don't want to be preached at until I open the potentially doomed thread.

[EvilBob46]

Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment

Baldur's Gate qualifies as a cliche story in many ways. Planescape: Torment is an example of an amazing story. Be prepared to replay the game 5 times like I did, because chances are with development costs going through the roof and the desire of publishers to make games more mainstream, they might never make a game quite like this ever again.

[51|RandoM]

It works in FPS's why not MMORPG's. That would likely suck me in. Sure your fantasy world 'could' be disturbed by the screaming kid, but just mute him/her.

Also, I believe it would be so much more immersive to travel with a group that you like and talk often about what you're experiencing without having to type and read all the time.


I just don't think the tech is there yet. That or we need to teach people not to swallow their microphones. I tried it for a bit in DDO and it was just terrible. Jane the valkyrie sounds like a plumber from brooklyn, Arnulf the berserker sounds like a 12 year old altar boy, it just doesn't work.

What we need is to couple speech generation with speech recognition(of the quality IBM has been producing). Then the recognition takes your voice, figures out what you're saying and then says it in a game-authentic voice, which coincidentally would be clear as a bell to the players you were talking to.

[Savok]

Planescape was limited in areas, in character it was almost infinate. And yeah, I meant the BG as a whole, I mean shit, you can import the Final Save from BG, it's all one big story.

And yes, those are exceptional, but I put it to you that Fallout's tale can outclass "androgenous teenage boy needs to save the world" any day. Most JRPGs follow a formula that's rarely ever built upon or altered, there are exceptions, but I think we've just been over that :p

JRPGs can still fuck it up entirely afterall, just look at FF8, Uwe Boll could write better characters, and we'd have a car chase.

[Jack B]

So I can actually hear people cyb0ring instead of just reading the text? awsome!

Yep. Mute might be your friend. Or on the other hand in a PVP world, those voices might be your group's reason for playing... To eradicate them from the map! :eek:

I'd also like to have each Hound in Chromehounds to become equipped with a speaker and have it play your own MP3. If I could this would be blaring from my Hounds speaker click here . (http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/clipserve/B00000AFQY001006/0/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_006/103-4220895-8742210)

The speaker could be shot out or maybe only play if your team won the last round. Man would I hate having to hear someones crappy song that was winning. All the more reason to get back in their an silence them... :D

[DeadPixel]

I really don't understand why there are no Diablo II style coop games on the XBOX. I don't mean things you can play on the same TV, but LIVE enabled. They have all the means for that and the controls are perfect. Something like Titan Quest would probably be hugely popular on LIVE.

Makes no sense.

[Intruder]

And yes, those are exceptional, but I put it to you that Fallout's tale can outclass "androgenous teenage boy needs to save the world" any day.


Damn you!!! Now I have to go instal Fallout 1 and 2 ;)

[Kefkataran]

Because it's unnecessary and incites detouring from the actual newspots by way of someone's asshole comments. Most times.

If we're talking about how the PS3 will do this or that, and then an editor or contributor puts some openly inflammatory remark in italics, it's highly possible that we're not going to talk about the news, but instead focus on those idiot comments.

You've got a bit of a point, but Evil Avatar's been like that since long before you came here. What made you stick around if that annoyed you so much? (And god did it ever first annoy me when I came here)

JRPGs can still fuck it up entirely afterall, just look at FF8, Uwe Boll could write better characters, and we'd have a car chase.

Now, listen, I disliked FF8 just as much as any good red-blooded American, but Uwe Boll? Fuck no.

[Kelegacy]

I want more Western RPGs, so if there becomes some sort of renaissance on the 360 or PC, then awesome. JRPGs have been getting tiresome, and I really haven't touched many lately. The ones I do I end up giving up on. It's all about how the battles are handled, for me: Diablo games I loathe because of the focus on action and mouse clicking for hours; JRPGs with turned based encounters bloat the game with needless, frustrating, and intrusive battles. Some JRPGs handle the battle system better than others, but I'm still finding random encounters to be really tedious. I have, after all, been playing them since I was in elementary school, and the only way they've evolved is through graphics. Heck, FPSs have gone through more changes than JRPGs.

I still think that most JRPGs that come to the 360 will be subpar. I call them mercenary games, commissioned to put more of that genre on the system, but always lacking something important. Just like authors who are hired to write books on licenses, games tend to suffer just as much when they go this route.

[theguido]

As a JRPG fan (and also the occasional fan of Western-style RPG's) this list inspires zero confidence in me that the RPG quotient is going to be decent for the 360. My quick comments.

Mass Effect: Looks good, but I hated Jade Empire. I'll only be interested if it's more like KOTOR, but probably won't be by the comments I've seen.

BioShock: Calling this an RPG is a stretch. They even admit so in the article.

Blue Dragon: By the creators of Blinx. Pardon me if I'm not excited about it just because the character designs are by Toriyama.

Lost Odyssey: Directed by Sakaguchi, but done by a brand-new development company. Count me skeptical on this one as well.

Fable 2: Fable 1 sucked. 'Nuff said.

I can't see me buying an MMO anytime soon. Enchanted Arms and that Trusty Bell look somewhat interesting, but not interesting enough to spend $400.

[51|RandoM]

I really don't understand why there are no Diablo II style coop games on the XBOX. I don't mean things you can play on the same TV, but LIVE enabled. They have all the means for that and the controls are perfect. Something like Titan Quest would probably be hugely popular on LIVE.

Makes no sense.

They missed the boat with the BG:Dark Alliance games, and the Gauntlet games.

[Kelegacy]

You've got a bit of a point, but Evil Avatar's been like that since long before you came here. What made you stick around if that annoyed you so much?


I get bored at work. And NeoGaf won't accept my Gmail account.

[Savok]

I'd also like to have each Hound in Chromehounds to become equipped with a speaker and have it play your own MP3.
That would have a lot of positive waves.

With voice, I just want to tell our fuckwit tank that something is current trying to eat the healer's head, and could he do something about that. Then, while we go back to our bodies I can abuse him without having to stop and type everything.

[askheaves]

Or 12 hours. :)

You have no conception of how slowly I play games...

[Kefkataran]

I get bored at work. And NeoGaf won't accept my Gmail account.

I hear the GameFAQS forums have a couple openings. ;)

[51|RandoM]

I get bored at work.

Can you imagine what it must've been like before you could surf from your desk? No wonder people watched so much TV, gave them something to talk about standing around the watercooler for half their shift.

[bapenguin]

I just like to read the news sometimes. I don't want to be preached at until I open the potentially doomed thread.

There's 5 million other sites that just "post the news." We don't. :)

[Jack B]

That would have a lot of positive rays.

With voice, I just want to tell our fuckwit tank that something is current trying to eat the healer's head, and could he do something about that. Then, while we go back to our bodies I can abuse him without having to stop and type everything.

HaHaHa! That's too funny. Yeah, I can yell, "hey dumbshit, something's eating our healer's head..." a lot quicker than I can type it. :D

Plus, banter is just so much quicker and more fun with voice. It's like a road trip with friends, lot's of beers and swords....

[Zanzibar]

I just don't think the tech is there yet. That or we need to teach people not to swallow their microphones. I tried it for a bit in DDO and it was just terrible. Jane the valkyrie sounds like a plumber from brooklyn, Arnulf the berserker sounds like a 12 year old altar boy, it just doesn't work.

What we need is to couple speech generation with speech recognition(of the quality IBM has been producing). Then the recognition takes your voice, figures out what you're saying and then says it in a game-authentic voice, which coincidentally would be clear as a bell to the players you were talking to.

Hell yeah. I've been pushing this for our games for a couple of years now. We've created code that breaks .wav files down into phonemes for automated lip-sync, and by and large it works like a charm. The technology is there to make it happen, and a MMORPG would absolutely be the perfect vehicle for it, because you could also watch the character say those words with correct lip-sync. That would ALSO solve the bandwidth issue, because the network code would only have to transmit the phoneme length data instead of the actual sound; the nearby gamers' console would have the corresponding sound data on the HD/disc.

[EvilBob46]

Heck, FPSs have gone through more changes than JRPGs.


FFXII has totally changed Final Fantasy and J-RPGs in general...for better or worse.

[Heretic Machine]

I don't hate jRPGs, but they are not in any way, shape, or form RPGs. They just aren't, and there is no justification for putting them in the same boat. I have no illusions about either the current state of real RPGs (it is basically a dead genre), nor the possibility of getting a lot of jRPGs on the 360 that are worth playing (after all, with the hundreds on the PS2 there are only a handfull that are any good).

At this point, I'm happy when you give me a good action game. I think that will be what I'll spend the most money on this generation, and the 360 is going to be the place to be for action. The Wii should also offer a good amount of action games, but I'm hoping more for action-adventure, platformers, and niche titles from Nintendo.

[gzsfrk]

I really don't understand why there are no Diablo II style coop games on the XBOX. I don't mean things you can play on the same TV, but LIVE enabled. They have all the means for that and the controls are perfect. Something like Titan Quest would probably be hugely popular on LIVE.

Makes no sense.

X-men Legends 2? Other than that... hmm... can't think of any others off the top of my head.

[DeadPixel]

They missed the boat with the BG:Dark Alliance games, and the Gauntlet games.

Thats exactly what I'm talking about. I played those two and that D&D Heroes. I kept thinking to myself the entire time how much I would love to go through those games with my LIVE buddies... I mainly play coop games and due to the lack of them on LIVE, I finally dropped my account. PC still dominates for that.

[Savok]

Hell yeah. I've been pushing this for our games for a couple of years now. We've created code that breaks .wav files down into phonemes for automated lip-sync, and by and large it works like a charm. The technology is there to make it happen, and a MMORPG would absolutely be the perfect vehicle for it, because you could also watch the character say those words with correct lip-sync. That would ALSO solve the bandwidth issue, because the network code would only have to transmit the phoneme length data instead of the actual sound; the nearby gamers' console would have the corresponding sound data on the HD/disc.
I want to lick you

That's why they're called JRPGs now, Perigon, they aren't classed as real ones anymore.

[Kelegacy]

I hear the GameFAQS forums have a couple openings. ;)
There's 5 million other sites that just "post the news." We don't.

Wow, you guys sure are trying to get rid of me. Okay, I'm gone.

Seriously.

[Jack B]

I just don't think the tech is there yet. That or we need to teach people not to swallow their microphones. I tried it for a bit in DDO and it was just terrible. Jane the valkyrie sounds like a plumber from brooklyn, Arnulf the berserker sounds like a 12 year old altar boy, it just doesn't work.

What we need is to couple speech generation with speech recognition(of the quality IBM has been producing). Then the recognition takes your voice, figures out what you're saying and then says it in a game-authentic voice, which coincidentally would be clear as a bell to the players you were talking to.

Yeah, I'd be up for that too. We have the voice avatars on Xbox Live for the original Xbox, but they were rarely used, because they sounded strange. If it was mandatory to pick one, would that work for you?

For me, I'm fine with hearing Jane the Avatar sound like a plumber from Brooklyn. I suspend disbelief all the time and I'm not into the Dungeon's and Dragon's role playing anyway. It's just a game to me.

"How art thou, fellow wanderer? Are thoust thirsty to drink a fine tankard of ale with me my lady?". I'm not into that...

I see the text on the MMORPG's on the screen and it's just acronyms and standard 2006 talk. It's just functional. I might as well have the ability to walk up to people and speak with them.

Maybe if you could hear the people you're playing with, you'd gravitate to groups of people who were more like you and bond even further.

I'm sure I would. My problem is likely worse than yours, as I'm in an older demographic, but I'd still like to just comminicate while keeping my hands free to play the game and not have to stop and type as it is now.

I think huddling up for a team meeting, strategy ect, sounds like a blast. More fun even than in an FPS, because an MMORPG is slower paced and you have more time to talk while you travel and plan your next steps.

[EvilBob46]

That's why they're called JRPGs now, Perigon, they aren't classed as real ones anymore.

Re-Read his post. He says the genre of "real RPGs" is basically dead in general, or at least that's how I understood it.

[Heretic Machine]

That's why they're called JRPGs now, Perigon, they aren't classed as real ones anymore.

Ya, I know, I'm the one that started calling them that.

[Jack B]

Hell yeah. I've been pushing this for our games for a couple of years now. We've created code that breaks .wav files down into phonemes for automated lip-sync, and by and large it works like a charm. The technology is there to make it happen, and a MMORPG would absolutely be the perfect vehicle for it, because you could also watch the character say those words with correct lip-sync. That would ALSO solve the bandwidth issue, because the network code would only have to transmit the phoneme length data instead of the actual sound; the nearby gamers' console would have the corresponding sound data on the HD/disc.

That sounds really interesting. Do you have any URL's to learn more?

[51|RandoM]

I don't hate jRPGs, but they are not in any way, shape, or form RPGs. They just aren't, and there is no justification for putting them in the same boat.

The typical jRPG has more character development than Kotor, a more diverse magic system, more items, more quests, more party members, etc. I guess that means you don't classify KOTOR as an RPG in any way, shape, or form too, right?

Maybe you're just focusing on the select number of Final Fantasy titles that have more in common with a movie than a western RPG? You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater if that is the case.

[Heretic Machine]

The typical jRPG has more character development than Kotor, a more diverse magic system, more items, more quests, more party members, etc.

Good job naming a handful of things that have absolutely nothing to do with roleplaying.

EDIT: Gonna make this clearer and less infalmatory. Basically, roleplaying is like acting, but in a non-linear fashion. It is what you used to do when you were little and played "make-believe" in the backyard. Complex magic systems, frilly stories, lolitas with the breasts of a super-model and the brains of a twelve year old, these are not things that make a game an RPG.

[51|RandoM]

Re-Read his post. He says the genre of "real RPGs" is basically dead in general, or at least that's how I understood it.

It is dead. You have to admit that PoR2 and ToEE were some pretty massive nails in the coffin too, lol.

[51|RandoM]

Good job naming a handful of things that have absolutely nothing to do with roleplaying.

Absolutely nothing to do with roleplaying, yet present in almost every classic western RPG. Character development has nothing to do with an RPG? Wow.

Good job at dodging the bullet. Is KOTOR an RPG by your standard? Please say yes, I'm dying for confirmation.

[Savok]

Thing is a lot of guilds and stuff use TS already, times I was on it with small groups they never minded my female character saying in my male voice "guys, come check out my ass, these new pants are awesome".

[Jack B]

There's 5 million other sites that just "post the news." We don't. :)

That is a good point. The controversy is what I like most about EA. I'll still try to post with questions to spark debate over opinions, but either way EA will likely never be short on opinions in News threads!

[EvilBob46]

Good job naming a handful of things that have absolutely nothing to do with roleplaying.

Choosing to play a certain role in an RPG (like Mage, Fighter, Bard, etc.) is role-playing though.

[Savok]

Well this thread is going down the drain, sleep time.

[Jack B]

Thing is a lot of guilds and stuff use TS already, times I was on it with small groups they never minded my female character saying in my male voice "guys, come check out my ass, these new pants are awesome".

Classic! That's the funny shit I'm talking about. That sure beats, "My lord do you believe my figure would be pleasing to thine eyes?"...

Everyone knows 90% of the women in MMORPG's are guys anyway. At least this way, you might know for sure.

[Zanzibar]

That sounds really interesting. Do you have any URL's to learn more?

Yeah, try Carnegie Mellon University's open-source SPHINX project. (http://cmusphinx.sourceforge.net/html/cmusphinx.php) Most of our stuff was based on it.

[Heretic Machine]

You guys remember a game called Fallout? That was an RPG. Morrowind, that was an RPG. Oblivion (though stripped of many of the options you were given in it's predecessors) is an RPG. They are RPGs because you have choices, freedom to do things the way you or your character would do them. You never get in that in a jRPG, it just doesn't happen, that is why they aren't RPGs.

That doesn't make them bad, that just makes them different. Super Mario World isn't an RPG either, but I still love it.

[xarmerlyn]

If the xbox360 would get support from a handful of jrpg companies plus more support from developers like Koei I would already own one. (I realize dynasty warriors was out for xbox, but it was a poor port from the reviews I read)
I like both western rpgs (kotor,fable, fallout,titan quest) and many jrpgs. (final fantasy, .hack) Its the console that demonstrates the developer support for both that will earn my business.
I imagine playing a game like dynasty warriors or 99 knights or something where every officer and general is a custom player character complete with voice on live. In either 1-off battles or a series 3 or 4 where results effect both the next scenario and the amount of soldiers you command. That is the sort of thing that live could bring. -That would have me there instantly.
I think that currently the xbox360 is primarily for FPS fans in terms of exclusive content. Certainly there are other notables like PGR and oblivion. But it seems that Halo, Cod, Prey, Gear of War et. all are the games selling systems. Since that is not my genre of choice I'll wait for the other contenders for my business to release systems and game lineups. I would prefer to get an xbox360 because of live and other things. But for me the games I want make the system choice for me.

[EvilBob46]

You guys remember a game called Fallout? That was an RPG. Morrowind, that was an RPG. Oblivion (though stripped of many of the options you were given in it's predecessors) is an RPG. They are RPGs because you have choices, freedom to do things the way you or your character would do them. You never get in that in a jRPG, it just doesn't happen, that is why they aren't RPGs.

That doesn't make them bad, that just makes them different. Super Mario World isn't an RPG either, but I still love it.

By being able to take on certain roles (for example, through jobs in many Final Fantasy games that let you become a Black Mage, Thief, etc.) you are absolutely role playing - and thus the game itself becomes a Role Playing Game. Your personal prejudices as to what an RPG "should" be like don't change what it actually is.

[51|RandoM]

They are RPGs because you have choices, freedom to do things the way you or your character would do them. You never get in that in a jRPG, it just doesn't happen, that is why they aren't RPGs.


Character development is not a choice of how to do something? You should let the wiki people know that, since it happens to be the first bullet point after the overview in their entry for computer rpg.

You're talking about the sandbox, and there are plenty of games with the sandbox approach, even some, gasp, jRPG games.

Still no answer about KOTOR? :)

[Jack B]

Yeah, try Carnegie Mellon University's open-source SPHINX project. (http://cmusphinx.sourceforge.net/html/cmusphinx.php) Most of our stuff was based on it.

Thanks. I was just checking that out. It sounds like it still requires some amount of training, but I haven't read far enough yet.

I have a Sony voice recorder that converts voice to text, but it was a pain to train and I have to be careful to speak very clearly. Also, it still makes mistakes.

I think the original Xbox Live technique of voice masking would be an alternative if you didn't want to hear the female wizard sounding like a plumber from Brooklyn.

For me I don't care, but that's another option. I'll type on Evil Avatar forums, but I want to stop typing when I play a game on my sofa.

[Heretic Machine]

Taking on certain roles (for example, through jobs in many Final Fantasy games that let you become a Black Mage, Thief, etc.) you are absolutely role playing - and thus the game itself becomes a Role Playing Game. Your personal prejudices as to what an RPG "should" be like don't change what it actually is.

That is a single choice. One that appears very rarely in jRPGs (two Final Fantasy games, btw... TWO, and one is a strategy game). That isn't freedom. Freedom is deciding whether you want to place a bomb in a cantina to kill a target, befriend him and slay him later when he's been brought into your trust, or to side with him against the people who hired you to kill him. That is a real choice.


Still no answer about KOTOR?

WTF? Yes, KOTOR is an RPG, on some level. As much as a Choose Your Own Adventure book is an RPG. And no, I don't like KOTOR, or KOTORII. Do you have a point to make?

EDIT: Also, although I tend to called games like Fallout real RPGs, that is an overstatement. In truth, any game that lets you play as a character is an RPG in a way. When it comes to video games, being an RPG is really just focusing on giving the player a wide choice of actions. But the technology does not currently exist that would allow for a real, single-player, RPG to be made. Thus, the only true RPGs have multiple players, whether they be MMOs or LARPs.

[51|RandoM]

WTF? Yes, KOTOR is an RPG, on some level. As much as a Choose Your Own Adventure book is an RPG. And no, I don't like KOTOR, or KOTORII. Do you have a point to make?

You've just made my point, though I'm not sure you realize it yet.

[Heretic Machine]

You've just made my point, though I'm not sure you realize it yet.

Then make your damn point!

[theguido]

You guys remember a game called Fallout? That was an RPG. Morrowind, that was an RPG. Oblivion (though stripped of many of the options you were given in it's predecessors) is an RPG. They are RPGs because you have choices, freedom to do things the way you or your character would do them. You never get in that in a jRPG, it just doesn't happen, that is why they aren't RPGs.



What about those JRPG's that have alternate paths, that allow you to make important decisions that change the way the story turns out, that allow you to choose some characters and not others. Do they then become "real" RPG's or not? At what point does a choice that changes the way the game plays out make it a "real" RPG or not? Because to me the line seems to be pretty blurry to me.

[Zanzibar]

Thanks. I was just checking that out. It sounds like it still requires some amount of training, but I haven't read far enough yet.

I have a Sony voice recorder that converts voice to text, but it was a pain to train and I have to be careful to speak very clearly. Also, it still makes mistakes.

I think the original Xbox Live technique of voice masking would be an alternative if you didn't want to hear the female wizard sounding like a plumber from Brooklyn.

For me I don't care, but that's another option. I'll type on Evil Avatar forums, but I want to stop typing when I play a game on my sofa.
The best thing about this idea is that you're ending up with the same medium: speech to speech. See, when you're going from speech to text, any errors are absolutely blatant, because you can look at the printout and there's no way to interpret it as anything but wrong. If you're doing a voice change, however, any errors are often mitigated by the fact that you're still getting a stream of sounds that mask slight imperfections - your brain fills in the blanks for you.

[EvilBob46]

That is a single choice. One that appears very rarely in jRPGs (two Final Fantasy games, btw... TWO, and one is a strategy game).

Am I missing something here? I'm not 100% sure on each of the following, but I think it's pretty accurate: Final Fantasy 1 let's you choose the class of your characters when you begin the game, Final Fantasy 2 let's you decide what a character becomes through his or her actions, Final Fantasy 3 and 5 use variations of the job system that's open to you, Final Fantasy X-2 revives the job system (too bad the game shucks), and Final Fantasy XII gives you full control of the direction you want to take your characters on the license board.

That isn't freedom. Freedom is deciding whether you want to place a bomb in a cantina to kill a target, befriend him and slay him later when he's been brought into your trust, or to side with him against the people who hired you to kill him. That is a real choice.

You're describing the definition of a free form game - not an RPG. There are games that follow the above logic that aren't RPGs at all.

[Dr.Finger]

X-men Legends 2? Other than that... hmm... can't think of any others off the top of my head.
Marvel: Ultimate Alliance should be coming out this fall, it basically has scores of Marvel characters to play as online, although for licencing reasons the only X-Man in the game is Wolverine.

[Heretic Machine]

You're describing the definition of a free form game - not an RPG. There are games that follow the above logic that aren't RPGs at all.

...Freedom is the very core of being able to roleplay. Your problem is that magazines have told you for the past two decades that an RPG is a game with numbers like "Hit Points" or "Magic Points."

News Flash: All games have numbers, you just can't always see them.

[OUX]

By definition an RPG is a game in which you undertake the "role" of a character. Whether or not you like that role is actually based more in how you feel about the game. Choice is nice but the is no such thing as true choice in anything but a P&P RPG and there never will be simply because of the scope it would have to be. Also Fallout was overrated and didn't give you anymore choice than KOTOR, Fable, Jade Empire, Baldur's Gate or any other "open ending" game.

[Heretic Machine]

By definition an RPG is a game in which you undertake the "role" of a character.

Fine, then by your definition Super Mario World is an RPG. By your definition, any game where you happen to be playing a character counts as an RPG. In that case, it shouldn't be a genre to begin with.

[OUX]

Fine, then by your definition Super Mario World is an RPG. By your definition, any game where you happen to be playing a character counts as an RPG. In that case, it shouldn't be a genre to begin with.

Then let it be so. RPG is just a buzz word that the industry uses to organize a game type though they are all really RPGs.

[Jack B]

The best thing about this idea is that you're ending up with the same medium: speech to speech. See, when you're going from speech to text, any errors are absolutely blatant, because you can look at the printout and there's no way to interpret it as anything but wrong. If you're doing a voice change, however, any errors are often mitigated by the fact that you're still getting a stream of sounds that mask slight imperfections - your brain fills in the blanks for you.

So, is this voice masking? XBL for the original Xbox had that. Very few used it as an option as they'd get hammered in lobbies for using the masks.

I could see voice masking in a role playing game if you didn't want to hear the 12 year kid's voice, but without making it mandatory, do you think people would use it?

Maybe if the masks weren't so extreme. If I remember, most were the robot or Stephen Hawking or or pretend child voice masks. If they were natural, but different than your own, maybe that would work better and be more accepted by the community...

[Zanzibar]

So, is this voice masking? XBL for the original Xbox had that. Very few used it as an option as they'd get hammered in lobbies for using the masks.

I could see voice masking in a role playing game if you didn't want to hear the 12 year kid's voice, but without making it mandatory, do you think people would use it?

Maybe if the masks weren't so extreme. If I remember, most were the robot or Stephen Hawking or or pretend child voice masks. If they were natural, but different than your own, maybe that would work better and be more accepted by the community...

Well, not really, because all XBL did was adjust the pitch/frequency, but still sent the raw sound data after the local Xbox calculated the new frequency.

[Jack B]

Well, not really, because all XBL did was adjust the pitch/frequency, but still sent the raw sound data after the local Xbox calculated the new frequency.

So, this would sound much more natural? If so, that's great then. I always thought the original XBL voice mask choices were funky on purpose.

[fushi]

Forget all the western schlock, the Xbox 360 has one RPG to rule them all: Trusty Bell.
On October 17, 1948, Frederic Chopin, one of the most influential composers for the piano, succumbed to sickness and died at the young age of 39. Three hours prior to that, in the world according to this RPG, Chopin saw a dream of a fairy-tale land populated by people with incurable diseases but also magical powers.

Trusty Bell: Chopin's Dream takes place in this dream world. Chopin comes into contact with Polka, a young girl who resides with her mother in the village of Tenuto. Polka is near her death, and Chopin, Polka, and her young friend Allegretto as they look for some way to make use of Polka's great powers to help save her. It's a whimsical fantasy, but this RPG designed by developer tri-Crescendo also a complex and combo-based battle system of swords and magic weaponry. In keeping with inspiration, music and story play a big part in Trusty Bell. Performing the piano numbers that Chopin left to the world is Russian pianist Stanislav Bunin, with musical composition by noted game composer Motoi Sakuraba.
This game will eventually make me buy this console :o

[RMan]

Yea, I think arguing the term RPG is fruitless. It has little meaning in computer games, since it’s generally applied to anything that allows you to raise character stats. TBH, the rigidity of computer games makes it hard to justify the term Role Playing Game, in comparison to the roots of the term (the pen and paper games) it pales in terms of ability to play a role (or to wander outside the bounds of the role). In short, I’m not sure I’ve ever played a computer RPG that really deserves the title. Anyway, I think the computer RPG fits the description about as well as DDR captures the act of dancing (in short, it captures a portion of it, the portion that works in a game).

On a side note, I’m actually surprised that I really liked Baten Kaitos’s card based battle system. It’s certainly not without it’s issues, but WAY more fun than FF’s rather boring and repetitive system. I’d like to see more games like that, ones that really try to think abstractly about the combat (or perhaps in this case, rip off another popular type of combat and apply it to video game).

[Flatpicker]

Jrpg's are more like the old text based adventure games. I'm ok with that and like it sometimes.
WRPG's are closer to the PNP games, where you actually play a role and try to stay in character.
In the FF series, you really can't do anything that is out of character as you have no control of the growth of the character.
Pro is that it allows for a stronger story.
Con is that usually the story is so badly translated that it's not worth following.

I find as I get older I gravitate to the Wrpg's. I just like the freedom that the sandbox games like Ultima 7 and the Elder Scrolls series give me.

Usually if I play a JRPG now, I go for the strategy or tactics based ones. Like FF tactics, Front Mission, Fire emblem, Advance Wars etc etc..

[Balthasar]

You've got a bit of a point, but Evil Avatar's been like that since long before you came here. What made you stick around if that annoyed you so much? (And god did it ever first annoy me when I came here)
I would have to say I agree with Kel a lot on this point. And I would also say, unlike Kel, it's worn out my desire to seek out any gaming-related info on this site (notice how much I've been around lately?). This is the kind of place I need to periodically take breaks from.

[Heretic Machine]

I would have to say I agree with Kel a lot on this point. And I would also say, unlike Kel, it's worn out my desire to seek out any gaming-related info on this site (notice how much I've been around lately?). This is the kind of place I need to periodically take breaks from.

If you don't like the commentary, there really is no point to read the news on this site. That is the whole point. I mean, it isn't as if Evil Avatar is a place to get a lot of exclusive content, all of the news comes from other sites that we link to. The commentary and discussion is the reason to come here.

[Balthasar]

If you don't like the commentary, there really is no point to read the news on this site.
And I most certainly learned that lesson the hard way. There are far better uses of my time than arguing with people on the internet silly enough to mark economic alligiances with corportations and treat all matters therabouts as part of some actual war. I can punch at the useful idiots that infest this site all day, but to what end?

[Heretic Machine]

There are far better uses of my time than arguing with people on the internet silly enough to mark economic alligiances with corportations and treat all matters therabouts as part of some actual war.

Yes, better things... Like complaining about it on the internet, to those idiots, on the site that you don't like...

[Balthasar]

Yes, better things... Like complaining about it on the internet, to those idiots, on the site that you don't like...
I wasn't aware I was complaining about anything to "those idiots" (for the record, I said "useful idiots," which means something entirely different from what I am assuming you think I mean--look it up on wiki). I was merely responding to your comment. I also never stated that I disliked EA. A touch defensive, no?

[Heretic Machine]

A touch defensive, no?

No, I'm just tired of people complaining about the core elements of this site.

[Balthasar]

No, I'm just tired of people complaining about the core elements of this site.
Right, but I wasn't complaining about it. I think I stated, clearly, that I was in fact tired of dealing with it, and so I stopped spending my time here as much.

[theguido]

...Freedom is the very core of being able to roleplay. Your problem is that magazines have told you for the past two decades that an RPG is a game with numbers like "Hit Points" or "Magic Points."

News Flash: All games have numbers, you just can't always see them.

The problem is, some of what you define as "real" RPG's, the "choices" that you can make don't matter in terms of the story or the world. Morrowind and Oblivion are good examples of that. Oh, yeah, you can be different races and fight different ways, but ultimately, in Oblivion, you're the guy who closes shut the gates of Oblivion, etc etc etc. Ultimately the choices that you make are superficial in nature, and don't really help define your "role" at all.

At least in JRPG's, the world has the possibility of changing because of the story it's *meant* to change--whereas in a free-roaming game nothing can change too radically lest people be inconvenienced by those radical changes (see again, Oblvion). At least some JRPG's give you possibility of changing the way things play out in the end--or at least in the middle. To me, that is far more interesting than being able to decide what random guild that won't change the world a bit I'm going to align myself with.

[Heretic Machine]

Ultimately the choices that you make are superficial in nature, and don't really help define your "role" at all.

In the main quest, which, as it happens, is only a small part of the actual game.

At least in JRPG's, the world has the possibility of changing because of the story it's *meant* to change

You don't change the world, the script dictates that the world is changed.

At least some JRPG's give you possibility of changing the way things play out in the end

Some jRPG's have the gimmick of multiple endings (see: Chrono Trigger), and many western RPG's have that same gimmick. All it means is that you reload the save point and choose option B the second time around.

EDIT: And once again, nothing that you said would suggest that jRPGs are RPGs. You are just trying to say that they are better games, which I don't really want to argue about right now. Some of my favorite games are jRPGs. But I don't have to pretend that they are something that they aren't.

[Balthasar]

Your problem is that magazines have told you for the past two decades that an RPG is a game with numbers like "Hit Points" or "Magic Points."

News Flash: All games have numbers, you just can't always see them.
Actually, a large majority of video game genres incorporate misleading wording. Why are not 90% of the games made described as "action/adventure" games? What exactly is a "puzzle" game? Platformer?

[theguido]

In the main quest, which, as it happens, is only a small part of the actual game.

In what way do the sidequests change or influence the world? All it means (at best) is that one or two people will show you a little bit of extra of dialogue, and it manages to not affect the world in a permanent or significant way. WOW IT'S AMAZING HE LIEK SAID SOMETHING DIFFERENT TO ME WHAT AMAZING ROLEPLAYING LOLZ.



You don't change the world, the script dictates that the world is changed.


But at least the world changes--it shows that what you've done (scripted or not) is having an affect on the world at large. The problem with LIEK TOTALY REALZ RPGZ is that with the exception of following the oftentimes tightly scripted main quest, the world basically stays the same. Heck, many times after the main quest the world still is the same. An unchanging world--WOW, SO REAL AND IMMERSIVE. I CAN ROLE-PLAY SO WELL WHEN THE WORLD IS SO VERY STATIC.


Some jRPG's have the gimmick of multiple endings (see: Chrono Trigger), and many western RPG's have that same gimmick. All it means is that you reload the save point and choose option B the second time around.

First of all, getting different endings isn't often as simple as a single choice in dialogue options. It is sometimes a result of a combination of choices that you made from the very beginning, or choices you made throughout the game. It is rarely as simple as reloading.

WRPG's (as I will call them) are actually more simple in that way due to the free-form nature of most of the games. You can always go back and do the things that you didn't do when you were there the first time. Since a JRPG's world is dynamic in a scripted fashion, certain side quests are only available for a certain amount of time, which in many ways is more realistic, and allows you to play a role to a larger extent than you could in a game where everything is available all the time.


EDIT: And once again, nothing that you said would suggest that jRPGs are RPGs. You are just trying to say that they are better games, which I don't really want to argue about right now. Some of my favorite games are jRPGs. But I don't have to pretend that they are something that they aren't.

You apparently missed the point of my paragraph. WRPG's are no more "Real" RPG's than JRPG's, because you are still left with artificial choices with no bearing on the world. This is largely because of the limitations of technology and AI, but don't pretend as if they're somehow closer to "real" role-playing. They're just limited in different ways.

[danhoo]

Wow, you guys sure are trying to get rid of me. Okay, I'm gone.

Seriously.

Crap, did all this ranting scare off Kel? For good? Bummer.

[shnastybiznastic]

Before I begin, roleplaying, in the context of the term RPG does not mean simply playing a game in which there are roles. The term refers to the metaphorical donning of the character's mask and making decisions that are resonable for them, when given an option to.

In what way do the sidequests change or influence the world? All it means (at best) is that one or two people will show you a little bit of extra of dialogue, and it manages to not affect the world in a permanent or significant way. WOW IT'S AMAZING HE LIEK SAID SOMETHING DIFFERENT TO ME WHAT AMAZING ROLEPLAYING LOLZ.
This is more of a limitation of using a computer to try and duplicate the experience of pen and paper roleplaying. What can be said for that style of game is that it offers you the freedom to roleplay. Yes, it is possible to simply try and create the character who can deliver the most damage per second, and this is an issue with pen and paper games too (it's called metagaming, BTW). What makes a western RPG different from a JRPG is that it gives you the option of roleplaying as opposed to just metagaming.

But at least the world changes--it shows that what you've done (scripted or not) is having an affect on the world at large. The problem with LIEK TOTALY REALZ RPGZ is that with the exception of following the oftentimes tightly scripted main quest, the world basically stays the same. Heck, many times after the main quest the world still is the same. An unchanging world--WOW, SO REAL AND IMMERSIVE. I CAN ROLE-PLAY SO WELL WHEN THE WORLD IS SO VERY STATIC.
This is a limitation of trying to transfer the genre to computer. There are just some things that you need a GM for. On the other hand, most of the sandbox/western RPGs let your actions have some impact on the world, just not much (since, barring the catastrophic and world shattering events that the main quest is no doubt made up of, what effect does one person have on a world?).

First of all, getting different endings isn't often as simple as a single choice in dialogue options. It is sometimes a result of a combination of choices that you made from the very beginning, or choices you made throughout the game. It is rarely as simple as reloading.
Aside from Tactics Ogre's alignment bar, I can't think of any RPGs in which there were that many Different Ending Determining Choices. Could you name a few? I feel like I am forgetting some important ones.

Also, it's not like different endings are that much of an RPG element to begin with, roleplaying is about the way you got to the ending, not what the ending itself. While a simple DnD campaign (I use DnD because the typical campaign is simple and well known enough that everyone will understand, not because it's some great bastion of tabletop fun.) may end differently depending on wether you haggle for the Cauldron of Feasts or kill the ogre who has it, the real roleplaying mechanism is the making of choices based on what a charachter you created would do, not the replaying of the story from a certain point to get different endings.

WRPG's (as I will call them) are actually more simple in that way due to the free-form nature of most of the games. You can always go back and do the things that you didn't do when you were there the first time. Since a JRPG's world is dynamic in a scripted fashion, certain side quests are only available for a certain amount of time, which in many ways is more realistic, and allows you to play a role to a larger extent than you could in a game where everything is available all the time.
Yes, managing the relationships between the quest and the rest of the world is complicated. It's meant to be done with a GM. Also, I don't see how a game whose core roleplaying mechanic is metagaming is more complicated than a game whose core roleplaying mechanic is non-combat decision making.

Also, I can't think of any JRPG aside from Tactics Ogre that allows you to play a role with multiple decisions throughout the game that will effect the game itself, not just the ending. I would also like to know what this JRPG that allows you more roleplaying freedom is.

You apparently missed the point of my paragraph. WRPG's are no more "Real" RPG's than JRPG's, because you are still left with artificial choices with no bearing on the world. This is largely because of the limitations of technology and AI, but don't pretend as if they're somehow closer to "real" role-playing. They're just limited in different ways.
Exactly, neither are an accurate simulation of the effect of tabletop roleplaying, but WRPGs (good term, BTW) are more trus to the spirit of roleplaying than JRPGs are, and I really think that's what's on trial here.

Perigon, keep the faith. :cool:

[Spigot]

I really like JRPG's, but the glut of them recently has really highlighted how much they can follow a formula and how boring that can be after the 8th iteration thereof.

I'm not even going to touch the whole "JRPG's aren't RPG's" arguement. I've voiced my opinion on that subject far too many times and really don't care. I'll just say that we need more RPG's like Chrono Trigger and Planescape and fewer generic games with poor writing and characters. I think that both camps will have their rabid followers and if the quality of both types of RPGs increases, everyone is a winner.

Now, I'm off to play the love of my life, my shiny new Chrono Trigger cartridge.

[Savok]

I have a large cricket bat, I shall use it to beat this into people, picking your class/job/whatever does not make a RPG, that is a gameplay mechanic that has nothing to do with actual roleplaying. Ever been in a freeform RP room? They don't have dice, they don't have stats, yet they're RPing. The RPG, sticks a game on to the RPing aspect, this is where stats and dice come in.

Is any computer game a true RPG yet? No, it's impossible to simulate the infinate choice actual RPing has, but we can certainly try to come close as we can. Oh and that altering of little lines of text? Well done asshole, you've just discovered the RP of RPG.

As Perigon said, you've been told they're RPGs for decades but the name is very misleading. It's like Hot Dogs, at best warm and certainly not made of dog.

[theguido]

Aside from Tactics Ogre's alignment bar, I can't think of any RPGs in which there were that many Different Ending Determining Choices. Could you name a few? I feel like I am forgetting some important ones.



Unfortunately, the freedom that WRPG's provide are headed down the wrong path, especially regarding Oblvion. To be clear, I absolutely loved Morrowind and is the only game I played extensively on my Xbox. But unfortunately, the unkillable quest characters, unpickable locks, respawning caves and scaling characters all have severely limited the freedom that one did have in Morrowind. Maybe Gothic 3 will restore my faith in this form of RPG, but I have my doubts after my disappointing experience with Oblivion.

And regarding JRPG's where you can affect the gameplay and the outcome of the game a bit throughout the game, there are several examples that I can give. To be fair, however, the way in which they can affect the game is usually fairly simple--but they are, in fact, choices.

In Chrono Cross, at a fairly early part of the game, there are three branching paths that you can go that have different story elements to them--and based on which one you choose different characters join your party. Similarly, at another relatively early part of the game, you can choose to accept or reject the company of a certain companion, and based on that a certain amount of the game plays out slightly differently. Another scenario has you choosing whether or not to try and save the life of a companion. Not to mention the fact that depending on some of the choices you make at these times the various endings you can get are different. New Game +, of course, is a whole 'nother story.

In basically all the Suikoden games, you have chances to kill people that might join you. Now, most of the time this is stupid because the "good" ending requires all 108 stars, but you certainly have the freedom to make that decision. Suikoden IV was the only game where I seriously considered killing someone despite the consequences. Also, in most of the Suikoden games the ending is affected by things that you do way before the end is in sight. For example, in Suikoden II there is a crucial point with Nanami that, along with the status of the 108 stars. And I have read that in Suikoden V (though I haven't gotten this far) that the way you treat certain family members of the main character can affect the way the game plays out down the road. Not to mention that you can end the game very, very early if you make a certain decision---there is a similar situation in Suikoden II if I remember correctly.

Valkyrie Profile is also a game where the way the last chapter of the game plays out can change VERY DRAMATICALLY based on the actions that you take through the game. Now, it takes it to sort of an extreme in that you have to do some very specific things to trigger the change, but the choice is there and it makes the last part of the game much more interesting.

Legend of Mana doesn't really have different endings, but the game is very open in the way it plays out. Certain events trigger other events in other places, but with very few exceptions you aren't locked in to a static set of events like most JRPG's force you to.

[sanatos]

The main difference between pen and paper and video RPGs, J or otherwise, is that you don't often get to choose your own persona. In FFVII, you're still chosing dialogue options, but the persona of Cloud is chosen for you and you can do nothing to deviate significantly from his character.

Off the top of my head, the only game I have extensive experience with that addresses this, albeit crudly, is Maniac Mansion. Since it's twenty years old the statute of limitation on spoilers is up, but in case you're worried about it skip the rest of my post.

Now, in MM, you don't get to make up your own character from scratch, but you do have to pick two from the group. There's the punk rock chick, the hipster, the surfer dude, the cub reporter, the bookish girl, and the nerd. Instantly, that's a lot more of a personal choice than the spiky-haired protagonists of today. Each of them brings something different to the party; in fact, each one has a unique ending that can only be achieved by using their talents (except for Sid and Razor; they're the same).

Now, multiple endings are pretty commonplace and are usually achieved via skill or completion rather than any actual choices on the player's part. But what's really interesting in Maniac Mansion is the ability to create an unwinnable situation. For example, using Razor you can record a demo tape. If you show that tape to the green tentacle, he gives you his. The solution to the game involves getting him a recording contract so that he'll help you. But, you can choose to get yourself a contract and show it to him, he'll get angry and kill you, and then you can't win unless you have Bernard.

Speaking of Bernard, he's a nerd and kind of a wimp, so he's afraid of the tentacle, and you have to use another character to solve some of the other puzzles. His ending solution, summoning the meteor police, involves appealing to authority for help, which reflects his introverted nature. Most of the other characters rely on getting help from their peers in the mansion.

That all is still far from the pen and paper experience, but it's a lot closer than the average JRPG experience, and I hope I could make it clear that the openness is different than a few altered dialogue boxes and unlockable characters.

[theguido]

Maniac Mansion was one of my favorite games evar for the NES. If they have that on the Virtual Console I may have to go pick it up.

Speaking of which, I need to find a copy of Day of the Tentacle if I can...

[Heretic Machine]

Maniac Mansion was one of my favorite games evar for the NES.

http://www.the-underdogs.info/game.php?id=4894

[destoo]

So let me get this straight...

Fahrenheit/Indigo prophecy is a JRPG.
the latests Wizardry are WRPGs
(we want NA release of those, damnit!)

I think Richard Garriott said it best a few years ago in an interview for the Prima Games compilation book, and also on the Uix site.

Perhaps I should mention my definitions for "role-playing" and "adventure games," as I sense that I do not share the same definitions by which many games are pitched. Back when I used to play D&D, a good game master was defined as a great interactive storyteller. No one cared about the "rules"-all that mattered was the "thought." As D&D grew in popularity, all too often the absence of a good storyteller caused people to argue about damage and weapon details rather than immersing themselves in the experience. In my mind, the term "role-playing" is attached to what I consider statistics management games. For example, Diablo is not what I consider a true role-playing game. I would call it an inventory management and stats-based fantasy hack and slash. A great game perhaps, but not the role-playing game I want to build. Heroes of Might and Magic II is another great game I have played for dozens of hours, but not by my definition a role playing game. I would call it a fantasy themed statistics-based strategy game. The same goes for most all of the Japanese style RPG's like Zelda, etc. Only Final Fantasy 7 strives to be role-playing, though it still has a stats-based game at its core. Now you may say I am splitting hairs, but I want you to understand what we are striving for in Ascension. Our goal is to make a role-playing game where you, your mind and your id travels and adventures in the compelling and realistic place we call Britannia.

And Ascension did fail, but for different reasons.

[Wyrm]

I used to really love JRPGs and now I find that I am no longer even able to sit with them for more than a few hours before becoming mind numb-fuckingly bored. I start to drool, then I shit myself, then I drop dead because the story is cliche, rehashed, and poorly executed.

I swear to god, if I boot up one more game about collecting 7-8 crystals before some evil guy does (who, by the way, wants to do something sinister with them, like, shove them up his ass while I watch) so that I can restore power to a dying world I dont give a shit about, I will place a gun to the side of my head and extricate 95% of my brain matter from my skull cavity.

Not since Lunar have I actually given two shits about the characters in a JRPG game. I sort of liked Dark Cloud, if you can call that an RPG, and I kind of enjoyed FFX (until it got so boring that I wanted to tear my own eyes from my head and throw them into a stampede of angry buffalo).

For me, that list means I dont have to get mind fucked every time I play an RPG. I'll actually have fun, rather than playing the game because Square has my fanboy nuts in a vice, I'll enjoy a game because I can see a unique story, changes in gameplay, and new technology.

[rezzinator]

Was I reading wrong, or did that article call Fable a rpg of any kind? Because that's right on par with calling Halo a warfare sim. Good to see some rpgs coming to the 360, I'm especially interested in the Last Odyssey.