How WoW killed the MMO.

[Whimbrel]

I saw the news story about the Biware Star Wars MMO, obviously getting ready for release soon, and despite playing and enjoying every Bioware game since shattered steel, I really don't plan to play this.

The reason is WoW. I had never really played an MMO before World of Warcraft, but I did play and I got sucked in pretty hard, for about a year. Even then, I only played a small fraction of the content. I wasn't active in a guild, the battlegrounds, raiding, etc. I never maxed out a character. I basically played it like a single player game. I would just log on, do stuff with my character for a while, questing, exploring, and then log off. I was a casual gamer and still spent many hours in that game.

Before WoW, I could honestly say I didn't know any better. But WoW took care of that. Now I have a really good idea of what amount of time goes in to really getting the bang for your buck in an MMO. It isn't just the subscription. It is the intensity with which you need to play in order to keep enjoying it. As casual gaming experience, it often leaves you feeling like you didn't quite put in enough hours to get the satisfying gaming experience you were really hoping for. You can either try to come up with more hours or keep playing with that nagging dissatisfaction sitting on your shoulder. What was supposed to be enjoyment ends up becoming a negotiation with yuor actual life. You can play, but you need to constantly manage your play time. Sounds like work.

That sets up a huge hurdle for any new MMO. Many have come up to bat since WoW and they start shutting down servers within a few weeks. The problem is, many of the people who are the perfect target audience for these new games are out there, they are just still playing WoW. But any new MMO has to be so good and have so much content that the development budgets aer astronomical. If they don't start recouping that money right out of the door, wham! Shut down those start up servers. The only way to win would be to stick around long enough that gamers could come and go over the years, but the only game that pulls this off successfully is WoW.

So, not only did WoW kill the MMO for some gamers, but it also sets up an impossible situation for other developers. It's lose/lose for new MMOs.

In six months or so, Bioware will be doing everything it possibly can to give away trial subscriptions. And I will download and try it. I'm sure it will seem absolutely outstanding in every possible way. But would I be willing to pay for a subscription to that game knowing that I will never really be able to experience the full content because of the time commitment involved. Nope. That ship simply sailed after WoW killed it.

[lockwoodx]

I disagree. MMOs are in a rut, but that rut was created by the economy. Devs are humans too and they just want to be able to continue to create. Studios who continue to make something "safe" will never touch the profits of early adopters. It doesn't matter if you're subscription based or F2P, if you're not taking your MMO outside the box, your game will have a 6 month life-cycle at best unless backed by obnoxious amounts of money.

Take the "theme park" out of the mmo, and bring back the exploration.

Oh and guess who publishers (not studios) count on supporting MMOs their first 6 months. Shareholders? lol no. Players? Nope... Gold Farmers. That's what has truly ruined MMOs. When the games became a business for the player, not just the provider. Then the players get hassled by people trying to run a business inside of a game, ect... They figure since you're at the theme park you won't mind buying some golden hotdogs for your girl/children ect. It's the same nickle and dime shit they try and get you with $DLC.

edit: MMOS are nothing more than overly glorified digital shopping malls so long as you can't take their products out the door with you. Well jokes on them, accounts still sell quite well. ;)

[AspectVoid]

No offense, but this kind of sounds like a personal problem, not a problem with MMOs. I still have a WoW subscription, I only play for maybe 5 or 10 hours a month these days, but I feel that it is money well spent. I've never hit max level, never been on an end game raid, and still have fun with it. It's not a second job for me and never has been. Its a game I go back to whenever there isn't a new release out that I want to play. It's kept it fun and entertaining for me, even after all of these years.

And really, isn't that what gaming should be about?

[Anenome]

It's a shame you never got into the social experience of raiding. I did 2 years in WoW, and ended up a hardcore raid tank, beating the then current boss for a sever first. The game is a great deal more addictive, I'd say, when you get into that end-game stuff. Playing single-player only I'd think would be a lot easier to quit. Still, it's a lifestyle that's not compatible with a responsible adult and I don't recommend it to ppl :P I was young and had the time, but I don't anymore.

Still, for SW:KTR, if they go free to play they might have a shot. People will play just for the lore and the cultural purchase. Tell people about your jedi and they understand much more than if you tell them about your paladin, etc.

[Anenome]

No offense, but this kind of sounds like a personal problem, not a problem with MMOs. I still have a WoW subscription, I only play for maybe 5 or 10 hours a month these days, but I feel that it is money well spent. I've never hit max level, never been on an end game raid, and still have fun with it. It's not a second job for me and never has been. Its a game I go back to whenever there isn't a new release out that I want to play. It's kept it fun and entertaining for me, even after all of these years.

And really, isn't that what gaming should be about?
The real game begins when you hit max level ^_~

And I'll say this, the feeling of pulling off a tough 25-man raid that you really sweated and bled to win, spending perhaps weeks of attempts on before you first win, and just barely eeking out that first victory--it's an emotional high unparalleled in gaming, in my experience. Similarly, being able to stomp a raid that was once quite difficult makes you feel like a badass and puts others in legitimate awe.

[lockwoodx]

I'm still waiting for a Minecraft MMO so I can tell the woman to go make me a voxel sammich.

http://i.imgur.com/De4Fv.jpg

and freshly made...

http://i.imgur.com/rBoiK.png

[Whimbrel]

No offense, but this kind of sounds like a personal problem, not a problem with MMOs. I still have a WoW subscription, I only play for maybe 5 or 10 hours a month these days, but I feel that it is money well spent. I've never hit max level, never been on an end game raid, and still have fun with it. It's not a second job for me and never has been. Its a game I go back to whenever there isn't a new release out that I want to play. It's kept it fun and entertaining for me, even after all of these years.

And really, isn't that what gaming should be about?

I think you make a good point. What I should have said is after WoW, every other game faces a different market. In other words, yes, you still have a WoW subscription and consider it to be money well spent. And for a few months a year I resubscribe also, mostly as a treat for my kids who like to play. But, how many other MMOs are you currently subscribed to or are you considering subscribing to? How good would a game have to be to get you to invest your gaming time/ recreation budget in to at least the extent that you have done in WoW.

My point is not that MMOs are bad, simply that WoW, has done such a good job that for any new game to get to where WoW is now would require WoW to cease existing. Even then, I think fewer people would play a new MMO because they learned through WoW how much game and MMO is and what it requires to get into it.

And this is the paradox for developers. If they don't create a game good enough to rival WoW, they stand no chance, but if they invest in development enough to make a game that good, then the financial commitments require an almost impossible early adopter and subscriber base, which I don't think any game can possibly achieve in the current market again, regardless of quality or license.

[AspectVoid]

But, how many other MMOs are you currently subscribed to or are you considering subscribing to? How good would a game have to be to get you to invest your gaming time/ recreation budget in to at least the extent that you have done in WoW.

I have subscribed to a lot of MMOs in an attempt to find something new. I played City of Heroes for a long time before WoW, and enjoyed it.

I also played Aion for awhile. I tried to go back to it, but found that NCSoft had added some retarded new security features to their site that prevented me from logging into my account to resubscribe, so I sent them a nice little message informing them that since it was clear they didn't want my money, they had lost a customer.

I played Warhammer Online for awhile. I enjoyed some of it but in the early 20s it bogged down and I stopped. I gave Rift a shot, but there was just something about it that didn't click with me.

Its been pretty much the same thing for the past few years. I give new MMOs a chance and WoW is the old standby. Like that old favorite novel you go back every few years to reread. Its nothing impressive or special, but you know you'll have fun with it for a few days.

The truth is, I really think TOR is going to replace WoW for me as that Old Standby. The reason for this is Bioware's focus on story. With each class having a unique story and the story getting Bioware's customary treatment, I think it's going to make it easy to play through the game multiple times rerolling new characters. The gameplay, raids, etc really don't matter much to me for TOR. If the story is fun (it doesn't even have to be good, it just has to been fun like a pulp book can be fun) then I'll consistently go back and play.

[SaintBlitzkrieg]

Explore this

Is Wow, the best MMO out there or have the other MMO sucked so horribly that WoW is considered the best out there.

To be honest, I gave Wow a great chance, and I was left bored. I wanted more from that game and was given little. The quests were all the same. Destroy 5 of these, collect 10 of those, kill 20 of that. And then you move on.

Sure the world is huge, and the monsters change. Millions of different items. And the raids are fun at times, but how many raids can you do, how many quests of that nature can you do till you are bored.

There is a reason you only play 10 hours a month if that.

I think, the MMO market is so horrible that MMOs in general are broken. And everyone attempts to be WoW instead of trying to surpass it. What if you look at WoW as a mediocre game. If developers continue to try to be a mediocre wow, that is all the market is going to get.

[Whimbrel]

I think that even if developers try to make a better game than WoW, at this point the game will fail anyways. As I said above, I don't think this really has to do with the quality of the game anymore. I think it has to do with the investment cost of the developers versus the pool of gamers who are going to play any game, even a great game, long enough to get the game to still be a success when players would consider it an "Old Standby".

It isn't that companies can't make great MMOs. They definitely can. But who will play them? Will enough people play them to keep the servers open and a community lively enough to ever get to the "Old Standby" stage where WoW is now? I think the number of people willing to put that kind of time commitment into exploring the content of an MMO is less now than it was 7 years ago and many of those people are still playing WoW anyway and are not likely to switch in order to start the whole thing from scratch, regardless of how great the game is.

Besides, even if they did switch, WoW 2 can't be that far away can it?

[TeeCakes]

I don't see WoW as a hurdle for new MMOs at all. The only hurdle is crappy gameplay. I would've gladly bought FF14 and STO if they were decent games and paid the monthly subscription, but they weren't good games bottom line.

Having enough time to commit to an MMO shouldn't be a problem with a well made MMO. You don't have to level up to the cap to enjoy being a twink in PVP battles. Even if it takes you a full year to reach end game content, that just means you've gotten a long and robust playing experience for your monthly subscription fee-- much better than reaching endgame content within a week and finding nothing new or fun left to work towards in an MMO.

So basically, it IS that companies can't make great MMOs. If they could, Blizz would've released WoW2 years ago out of necessity.

[randir14]

WoW is probably the least time consuming MMO I've ever played, but my problem with the game is it seems like every MMO is trying to copy it, even Dark Millennium (which I'm looking forward to) was described by THQ's president as playing similar to WoW. Maybe Guild Wars 2 will be different.
WoW is also the first MMO to break into the mainstream, I know people in their 60's who play it and no other game. How can other companies compete with that?

[Kreigmstr]

There have been a couple MMO's that had a chance to break into a competative stance with WoW but somewhere a mistake was made.

Warhammer for example, Mythic over estimated initial population and had a ton of servers available on release spreading population too thin. Combine that with 3 end game PvP areas that were rediculously huge, the typical Mythic level advancement, and rushing the game out the door and people lost interest. They have, of course, adjusted for all this but they had already jumped the shark before they made the changes. And of course Blizzard took some of their best innovations and put them in WoW. I enjoyed playing this a lot when i went back recently, but they now have an obvious declining population problem.

Conan was another game I liked as well. Fun to play up until you hit max level and found out that there were no completed dugeons or raids and only one complete end level zone.

There's a fairly decent sized list of MMO's like this. Fun gameplay but something went wrong. A lot of times the things going wrong are because of the direct influence of the game publisher trying to meet an arbitrary release deadline.

Rift's success so far has been in their ability to focus on all the these growing pains that other MMO's have had and avoid them for release. I personally feel that the problem wiht Rift is the story. It just feels like a 4th rate fantasy novel written by an author who is great at action sequences but not at tying those sequences together in an entertaining way. If they survive maybe they can improve that aspect but they are up against a game that essentially has 20 years of background story development.

WoW does of course make it harder for other MMO's to make it through their growing pains by adopting their best features. So WoW does have a negative effect on the genre but it's not the end all be all cause of MMO failure.

[Mr_Mean-Jeans]

Well 'WoW' didn't kill the MMO ... The gamers did :)

Choose any Fantasy MMO and you'll always find people who clain: "Lol, this/that ... is just like in WoW"

Regardless if it's the races, graphics, environment, gear, inventory, skillbar, minimap, questdesign, monsters, items ... Everything is just *copied* from Blizzards MMO.

It's not the sum of all things, but people always start comparing it with everything they see in other games. So yeah, it's really hard to make a mmorpg that is not ripped to shreads by the "Zomfg, this is game's a WoW-Clone"-Fraction.

[DeathBeforeDishonor]

WoW didn't kill the idiot population. The only people still contributing to the economy is that population. That's why MMOs are never dead, because they thrive on idiots playing. The only times games like MMOs don't do well is when the economy is doing better, because that means idiots have gone to do something else.

[TeeCakes]

Now that WoW is f2p up to level 20, I might be forced to agree that it's a hurdle for newer titles. A free (gimped) WoW is still the best deal in the market.

[Johan]

I finally took the WoW plunge, with the F2P to level 20 model enticing me. I have to admit that I don't find it all that addicting, in the sense that I played to level 9 within 24 hours (didn't take more than a few hours), and don't feel much urge to go back. It's a series of fetch-quests without an engaging storyline, in my view.

Now, the group raiding is a totally different beast, and may be what sucks people in more. I haven't done any of that. After playing several hours and getting to level 9, I found myself wondering what the fuss is all about. I much prefer an Elder Scrolls, Dragon Age, Fallout, Baldur's Gate or Diablo to WoW.

Also, on an amusing note, perhaps the fact that I finally got in on WoW means that WoW truly is on death's door. After all, I don't play most games until they're dead and gone for most of the rest of you. :D

[lockwoodx]

Wow will be around for plenty long. Hell I might take a look at it again if they do a major graphics update. It's just not something I do much more of anyways, and Blizzard as a company has completely lost my support so that's made it easy not going back.

[Anenome]

I believe you can do you first instance at less than 20, at least a 5 man group instance.

[Johan]

I believe you can do you first instance at less than 20, at least a 5 man group instance.

There is one that came up at level 7 or 8. I'm at 9 and haven't tried to do it yet. No idea how to get in on a group, and not sure if I really even want to. That may be part of what has me perplexed about the attraction of WoW, because I'm just not much of an online mutliplayer gamer.

I may try that some time this or next weekend.

Edit: Signed in really quickly to check it out. It's called "Wanted: Hogger."

[Anenome]

There is one that came up at level 7 or 8. I'm at 9 and haven't tried to do it yet. No idea how to get in on a group, and not sure if I really even want to. That may be part of what has me perplexed about the attraction of WoW, because I'm just not much of an online mutliplayer gamer.

I may try that some time this or next weekend.

Edit: Signed in really quickly to check it out. It's called "Wanted: Hogger."
Ohhhh, right. That one. Cute. Hogger is such a little bitch :P

That's not even an instance--that's just a quest to kill your first rare-spawn. He's a pig over in Redfall or w/e.

At low level he can murder you. Get up a bit higher and you can one-shot him and wonder why you ever thought he was tough :P

You can just outlevel that quest and complete it.

But, I think it's worth it to open up the LFG (looking for group) and find that quest listed. I usually formed group freeform. Like, you might see someone trying to kill Hogger when you get there (and getting wasted). Well shoot them a whisper and invite them to group and do it together. Done tons of that.

But what I'm really talking about is going into Westfall and doing the Mines. That's your first real instance. You can get in there starting, I think, level 10? but people won't take you seriously until higher.

Instance meaning that you need a group of five to go in there and this will be the first time when you learn what it means to be part of an actual instance group--which will likely prove a revealing experience.

You'll have a guy tanking, a guy doing damage (or three), and a guy healing. And when the bosses come out, they're so so so much more powerful than any one player that you MUST fit within the group cooperative structure or you all die :P

Heaven help you :P

Actually, the mines aren't that hard, I used to run people through there all the time. And at the lower levels it's a really loose structure because it is so easy. At the higher levels, people are both more on their game and also more serious about completing instances and it gets a lot more fun to really excel at a single role and do it well.

I was a tank for most of my wow career, skilled in pulling, aoe-aggro, and leading a group, learning every pull, learning the tricks for various places.

I think it would be worth every gamer's time to level a character to max level just once in wow, and do some instancing and raiding.

Raiding is like instancing to another level, where you get together with 25 people to take on an instance, and the stakes are raised even higher. This is where if even one person is not on their game the whole instance can wipe.

Because it's so tough and frustrating, the rewards for beating these raid bosses are both emotionally and loot-wise gigantic. In fact, beating raid bosses in WoW has been the biggest rush and most fulfilling game experiences I've ever had.

But they also require a lot of personal investment to get there, and I don't have the time anymore :P

[magicka]

Yo WOW, I'm really happy for you, I'mma to let you finish but UO was one of the best MMOs of all time... the best of all time!

Sure, MMOs now have better game mechanic, graphics and next to no lag. But its all become so formulaic with huge time sink and long grind. UO was the next frontier and nothing in the near future can/will surpass that.

While I'm at it, U7 beats any Elder Scrolls game to date. Yeah, take that!

I'll go back to my lawn chair now.

[revelation]

While I'm at it, U7 beats any Elder Scrolls game to date. Yeah, take that!

Agreed.

I'll have to play through it again soon.

[Johan]

Level 25 Paladin at this point. Joined a level 25 guild and did my first dungeon/instance/wtf it was.

Actually enjoying it a lot. There is just a ton of content in this game. Man...too much, actually.

[lockwoodx]

http://i.imgur.com/6uqRp.png

[Johan]

No joke. It's like Vegas slots. Just one more pull of the lever!

House always wins...

[Anenome]

Frankly, WoW is a much better use of your time than slots, if you ask me, and far more fun. They're brainless by comparison :P And a whole lot more expensive.

[lockwoodx]

Frankly, WoW is a much better use of your time than slots, if you ask me, and far more fun. They're brainless by comparison :P And a whole lot more expensive.

Playing slots allows you to play more slots. How does playing WoW allow you to play more WoW?

[Anenome]

Playing slots allows you to play more slots. How does playing WoW allow you to play more WoW?
To make the analogy apt, it would be "does earning loot allow you to earn more loot?"

Answer--hell yes.

[lockwoodx]

To make the analogy apt, it would be "does earning loot allow you to earn more loot?"

Answer--hell yes.

It takes money to play slots, and wow. You're still apples to oranges until they add a cash shop inside wow.

[phantomhitman]

WoW is an evil thing

[Anenome]

It takes money to play slots, and wow. You're still apples to oranges until they add a cash shop inside wow.
Nah, because the function of killing and creature to "see what it drops" especially bosses, taps into the same psychological risk/reward system that makes playing slots attractive for many people.

Just because money's not involved doesn't mean it's not acting on a similar psychological principle. It clearly is.

[lockwoodx]

Nah, because the function of killing and creature to "see what it drops" especially bosses, taps into the same psychological risk/reward system that makes playing slots attractive for many people.

Just because money's not involved doesn't mean it's not acting on a similar psychological principle. It clearly is.

Ok now you're talking about gambling. I thought it was pretty clear my focus was on perpetuation.

[Johan]

The psychological draw of WoW is similar in my mind to slots. One more pull...one more loot drop. It scratches an itch that never stops itching, really.

As for the loot, it SUCKS in regular quests. I'm a level 25 and I have a number of empty slots for gear (never even gotten ONE item for these slots). I really think they should improve the chance of something cool dropping in single-player quests. I've never gotten a ring or trinket AT ALL in regular questing, and only one lousy ring in the one instance I've done.

Sadness. :( Have to try again! Just one more...

[sgtslappy]

The main part I enjoy about WoW is the social aspect. That's what keeps me in. 1.6, Dota, WoW, they all kept me sucked in cause I all I had to do was hop on Vent and just shoot the shit with everyone.

As for the loot aspect, I try not to focus on it. While I enjoy getting new stuff, I tend to just dwell over it for a bit then just requeue and hop that something will drop that I can use.

[Anenome]

Ok now you're talking about gambling. I thought it was pretty clear my focus was on perpetuation.
I was always talking about gambling :P But money is not intrinsic to gambling. You can gamble over all sorts of things. You can gamble your life when you go skydiving. Slots are much safer, naturally. In WoW, the stakes are even lower--no money at issue when you attack a creature, but still a chance of death, or reward. Even jackpot rewards in the form of dropped epics.

[Anenome]

The psychological draw of WoW is similar in my mind to slots. One more pull...one more loot drop. It scratches an itch that never stops itching, really.

As for the loot, it SUCKS in regular quests. I'm a level 25 and I have a number of empty slots for gear (never even gotten ONE item for these slots). I really think they should improve the chance of something cool dropping in single-player quests. I've never gotten a ring or trinket AT ALL in regular questing, and only one lousy ring in the one instance I've done.

Sadness. :( Have to try again! Just one more...
Just wait til you discover the auction house :P For a few gold you can buy items that will make leveling massively more fun :) Assuming you have any money. It's a lot funner to be a 2nd character and have the cash to spend, since it comes much faster at the top.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

Level 25 Paladin at this point. Joined a level 25 guild and did my first dungeon/instance/wtf it was.

Actually enjoying it a lot. There is just a ton of content in this game. Man...too much, actually.

Johan playing a PALADIN!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[Johan]

Just wait til you discover the auction house :P For a few gold you can buy items that will make leveling massively more fun :) Assuming you have any money. It's a lot funner to be a 2nd character and have the cash to spend, since it comes much faster at the top.

Level 25 and around 9 gold. NINE! :(

Johan playing a PALADIN!!!

Enjoying life's little ironies keeps me happy! :D

Actually, I chose Paladin primarily because I wanted to do soloing and I needed to be able to do damage AND heal. I felt it was the best class for me in that respect. Some of the others look more fun (AOE spells/attacks look awesome in the game), but I needed a bit of a hybrid approach.

[lockwoodx]

Actually, I chose Paladin primarily because I wanted to do soloing and I needed to be able to do damage AND heal. I felt it was the best class for me in that respect. Some of the others look more fun (AOE spells/attacks look awesome in the game), but I needed a bit of a hybrid approach.

So instead of picking a warlock you rolled a total gimp. LOLadins.

[lockwoodx]

Seriously just save yourself the time and start over now. You'll thank me.

[Anenome]

Johan. I had one major piece of advice for you--speaking as someone who levelled pally and raided with one.

Spec into protection.

And pick up some actual tanking gear. You'd think that this will gimp your damage. You will find that to be absolutely incorrect.

That is, it will gimp your damage single target, and the solution will be to draw 5+ targets at once, who will now do the damage of a single target, and die in roughly the same amount of time.

[Johan]

So instead of picking a warlock you rolled a total gimp. LOLadins.

I don't like ranged attacks too much. I believe they focus on that, not on hybrid damage/healing.

Seriously just save yourself the time and start over now. You'll thank me.

Thank you. You were right! :D

Johan. I had one major piece of advice for you--speaking as someone who levelled pally and raided with one.

Spec into protection.

Well...I'm in retribution right now, but I only have nine points. I can reset it for a few coins.

I wish I had some decent gear. The gear SUCKS.

[Anenome]

Spend a couple dozen silver and buy some greens. It really starts to add up. If you put gear in all your empty slots, even if it's just +1 gear, you'll get somewhere fast. Just make sure it's +1 of some stat that you actually need. Like, strength, iirc.

Above all, buy a really good weapon. And, iirc for ret, something reeeeally slow. Like an axe.

[lockwoodx]

Warlocks may be ranged but you can tank with them like the goddamn batman. Just level up as demonology and you'll never once wish you had your paladin.

[Anenome]

I too simply dislike ranged combat. I tried leveling a lock. Meh. Dealing with pets sucks.

[Kreigmstr]

I havent tried prot for leveling a paladin since they changed how block works but it used to be great. Just run around and aggro 5+ mobs and aoe tank them to death.

[Anenome]

I havent tried prot for leveling a paladin since they changed how block works but it used to be great. Just run around and aggro 5+ mobs and aoe tank them to death.
If you can't do that anymore, then that really blows.

[Kreigmstr]

I think it's still possible. A successful block doesnt reduce as much damage as before.

[Anenome]

If I can't do a Cathedral run in one pull anymore I'm going to be angry :P

[Primus]

The problem is there is no real innovation in this genre. Everyone is just doing the Everquest formula, with a gimmick or two. You either have to love the universe you are in or just have severe Aspergers to level more than one MMO to completion.