Toshiba's Commitment to HD-DVD in question?

[Mr.Condescension]

An editorial at ign.com (http://gear.ign.com/articles/715/715613p1.html) brings into question Toshiba's commitment to winning the HD video format war.

Technology analysts at iSuppli recently announced that, according to their generally respected calculations, the Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD player costs around $700 to deliver to retail. The unit is sold for $499, which means that Toshiba is taking $200 of loss on each HD-A1 shipped. While the market model of selling hardware at a loss in order to make profits from media sales has long been established in the videogame industry, it is practically unheard of in the general consumer electronics space.

Sony has pledged to ship 6 million PlayStation3s, at massive loss per console, before the end of the financial year. If the videogame console war goes Sony's way, the hardware losses will be recovered via game sales. Toshiba, on the other hand, does not have the ability to recoup money spent selling hardware below cost, and convincing its own management and hardware partners that they can actually win the format battle against Sony's committed onslaught will likely prove more and more difficult as time goes by.

Lots of interesting points in the editorial. The editor contends that signs are pointing to Toshiba effectively pulling out of the HD video war in the future, with unsustainable losses on sales, a squandered jump start on Sony, and recent calls from their head for a unified standard. An interesting read.

[Serapth]

Two things... first... Why wouldnt toshiba just rase prices if they had to. Even at 700$, they are still 300$ cheaper then the available BluRay players.

Second, shouldnt IGN have to disclose they are a FOX media company writing articles like this. Given there owner is an avid BluRay adopter, dont you see conflict of interest all over this. Sorta like how MSNBC discloses they are partially owned by Microsoft when covering anything related to Microsoft or its competitors?

[Zanzibar]

Good points, Serapth.

This article is craptastic anyways. There is no media blitz for the Blu-Ray coming until Christmas too, why is this somehow signaling doom for HD-DVD? I mean, the Toshiba guy talking about a unified format doesn't automatically mean that it's not HIS format.

[mkelehan]

So hold on. Toshiba is selling units at a loss, in order to get them into more homes, and this guy is using that to argue that Toshiba ISN'T committed to getting this ball rolling? I'd come to the opposite conclusion.

[rjcc]

gerry block is a moron. If i saw him in person, I'd kick him in the balls.

this article is shit.

[Zanzibar]

In the end, there will be a victor and a loser in this format war. Sony believes that it will be able win the competition for installation-base on the back of demand for the PS3. In terms of corporate commitment, Sony has pledged to ship 6 million PlayStation3s, at massive loss per console, before the end of the financial year. If the videogame console war goes Sony's way, the hardware losses will be recovered via game sales. Toshiba, on the other hand, does not have the ability to recoup money spent selling hardware below cost, and convincing its own management and hardware partners that they can actually win the format battle against Sony's committed onslaught will likely prove more and more difficult as time goes by.

I put bold around the MAJOR "Ifs" this jackass is proposing.

First, who says there will be a winner and loser? Why can't both lose? I still haven't seen any evidence that people will want to buy all-new movie collections, when they're already getting an incredible bump-up in quality if they just play their existing DVDs on HDTVs.

Second, that's an unbelievably major 'if' on the PS3 sales somehow driving Blu-Ray to success before HD-DVD can respond.

Third, why does this guy think that there won't be more cost-effective versions of HD-DVD players available by Christmas?

[Feltoar]

Im sure one will definately be the winner. Beyond digital media players new optical discs can be used for storage and backups. Personally, Im after the new formats so I need to buy less CD/DVD cases and so I can backup my computer with more convenience.

Ive always backed the HD-DVD camp, always will.

[holysin]

I'm usually inclined towards HD-DVD, since on the short term it's cheaper for me to get the HD-DVD drive for the 360 than buying a PS3. But there's been so much crap recently about both format's that all I have to say is this: screw hd-dvd and blu-ray, give us Ultra High Definition Video (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UHDV)!

1920x1080p? I want 7680x4320p!
5.1 audio? Give me 22.2!
25GB HD-DVD or 50GB Bluray? How about 3.9TB Holographic Versatile Discs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc)?

[Sensei-X]

The winner will be whichever format gets picked up first by Chinese electronics manufacturers and put out for $99..... or whichever gets the most porn.

[hotdrop]

yeah well the issue is with 3.9 tb just imagine how long it would take to index the data, and seek time. Its probably already pretty bad for hd-dvd and bluray since theres a physical limit on how fast a disk can spin before the internal forces inside the disk will cause it to shatter or fracture (unless you use more expensive plastic). Also you have issue with virabration and making the disks and mechanisms to a lower tolerence to perevent that.

[mister_slim]

I would assume Toshiba receives royalties for HD-DVD disk production. If they can make HD-DVD as pervasive as DVD they'll make that money back.

[holysin]

yeah well the issue is with 3.9 tb just imagine how long it would take to index the data, and seek time. Its probably already pretty bad for hd-dvd and bluray since theres a physical limit on how fast a disk can spin before the internal forces inside the disk will cause it to shatter or fracture (unless you use more expensive plastic). Also you have issue with virabration and making the disks and mechanisms to a lower tolerence to perevent that.

Hmm... I'm not informed enough on the Holographic Disc's technical details, but maybe it's different enough so that it isn't helf back by such issues. Too early to tell though, unfortunately.

[RMan]

So hold on. Toshiba is selling units at a loss, in order to get them into more homes, and this guy is using that to argue that Toshiba ISN'T committed to getting this ball rolling?
The question is not if they have commitment, but is it enough to beat Sony. Basically, Sony has far more to gain by succeeding, far more to lose by failing. Projecting forward, Toshiba would have to match that commitment in order to gain less rewards. In the end, they’d have to lose more money than they are now on the system to match the PS3. I mean, other than fanatics who’s going to buy an HD-DVD player over a PS3 at the same price (if they can get one)? Toshiba doesn’t have nearly the reward/risk ratio that Sony has.

[Siraris]

I put bold around the MAJOR "Ifs" this jackass is proposing.

First, who says there will be a winner and loser? Why can't both lose? I still haven't seen any evidence that people will want to buy all-new movie collections, when they're already getting an incredible bump-up in quality if they just play their existing DVDs on HDTVs.

Second, that's an unbelievably major 'if' on the PS3 sales somehow driving Blu-Ray to success before HD-DVD can respond.

Third, why does this guy think that there won't be more cost-effective versions of HD-DVD players available by Christmas?

Have you ever met this guy? What right do you have to call him a jackass? He posted his take on what is going on, that makes him a jackass? I don't know if he has some sort of past history, but you're going awful balistic over someones opinion.

Why would both formats lose? You have every major movie studio and almost every major CE company in the world backing one or both of these formats (more on the Blu-Ray side). All of these people decide the standards we use, the technology that goes into our TV's, and what we watch our media on. The sad truth is, they chose what technology we get, and then we pick which of those, as consumers, we want to buy. I doubt all of these companies would spend all this money developing this technology, and just have it flop. One will "succeed" whatever that means.

I have to agree with many of his points, though. The biggest being, Sony is going to ship 6 million Blu-Ray players around the world this fall, and everyone, whether they like it or not, will have a Blu-Ray player in their home. HD-DVD can't do that unless Microsoft bundles it with the 360. I was thinking about that today when I heard the rumor about MS not lowering the price and just releasing the bundle. It would work, theoretically, but you also have 5 million systems out there that have no HD-DVD, and probably a couple million more by the time this fall comes around. I don't think its a major if at ALL that Sony will push Blu-Ray with PS3, it's just a matter of time before it happens.

[Zanzibar]

This guy is a jackass because he's taking one statement - "unified format" - and suggesting that Toshiba is somehow therefore scared to take a stand for HD-DVD. They say that they're losing money on their INITIAL HD-DVD player, and we all know that there are more, cost-effective units being worked on in time for Christmas. This guy is the equivalent of Chicken Little.

I still don't believe that Johnny Impulse-Buyer is ready to upgrade to next-gen DVDs. So he wants to replace his DVD collection:

20 Blu-Ray movies @ $25 each = $500
PS3 = $600
40" HDTV ~ $1400
SubTotal: $2500
Tax: $200
Total: $2700

And, if you haven't noticed, he has a grand total of ZERO games to play on his PS3. Right.

In this economy, almost nobody has $2700 in their pocket, thanks to energy prices. The DVD format took off when the Clinton economy was going nuts; best economy ever. We are NOWHERE NEAR those levels.

[kraemer]

If the Telcos werent screwing us all with poor broadband, then HD-whatever disk would totally go away. Permanently. Since better broadband wont happen for another 20 years, we are going to have to have some kind of "better disk". But nobody is going to buy a "better disk" until there are mass market non-projection HD flat panels 50" or larger for under $1000. So Toshiba needs to be smart and take the long view. Dont sell the damn thing at a loss and dont be afraid of Sony. The Sony of the last two decades is gone. The Sony that has replaced it is slowly cutting its own legs off.

[Khash]

RMan and Siraris made some good points. Personally, I could care less about either format but I'll end up having a Blu-Ray player when I get my PS3. And if I have the Blu-Ray player, I'll buy Blu-Ray movies. Also, keep in mind that Sony's future as a company is resting almost entirely on the success of Blu-Ray. Howard Stringer has pretty much admitted as much. Sony will do everything in their power to make it succeed. They'll take the whole company into bankruptcy if it means Blu-Ray will win the format war. I don't think Toshiba is willing to take it that far.

[Zanzibar]

Sony will do everything in their power to make it succeed. They'll take the whole company into bankruptcy if it means Blu-Ray will win the format war.
Good. Call me when they include a 40-inch 1080p plasma HDTV with every PS3 purchased and I'll buy one.

[BGSS]

Seriously, blu-ray isn't higher quality video unless you have an AMAZING tv. Its just more money per disc because everyone knows that for 90% of consumers, the salesman just has to say "It's better quality!" and people will buy anything.

Blu-Ray movies are encoded with MPEG 2 for hells sake, its a 6 year old encoding!

[Bubby]

Hell, current DVD technology is fine for 95% of the world. Looks fine on my Samsung DLP also. Think I'll stick with it for a few years.

[Johan]

I don't give a freaking rip about either format; I hope they both die slow, costly, painful deaths. DVDs are fine for me; this is not the kind of upgrade that vinyl to cd or vhs to dvd brought about. I am sick of companies deciding that present formats need to be tossed so that they can make money with new formats; ESPECIALLY when the upgrade is not enough, imo, to justify the expense.

Yeah, HD is wonderful...changes the world, too; cures world hunger, creates world peace, and makes children loving, intelligent, caring and patient...screw HD in any form; I don't need it yet...perhaps in ten years, but not now, not for me.

Edit: Yeah, I'm cranky tonight :( Tomorrow, I'll still hate HD/BD, but not as much.

[Jack B]

I'm in the both could easily lose camp as DVD still has legs in it. My niece just got her 1st DVD player last year. She thinks it's cool and likely still will in 5 years from now.

I'm actually happy with my Comcast HD HBO, Showtime, etc, and On-Demand streaming. It gets better every year. I really don't need HD disks right now, because I just don't watch enough movies. I'll wait for a big price drop.

If one of these formats win, I don't think it will be for 3 or more years or so.... I was surprised to recently find out DVD's didn't outsell VHS tapes until around 2003. That's amazing to me. DVD's could hang on for many years considering DVD's launched in 1997, six years earlier.

If one of these 2 win, I'd lean to Blu-Ray, but only by a whisker. It's still very much up for grabs, IMO.

[Zanzibar]

I'm buying this relatively inexpensive 30" HDTV (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Samsung-30-Slimfit-HDTV-TXS3082W-/sem/rpsm/oid/147559/catOid/-12867/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do) for Christmas, to go along with my Xbox 360. That's as far as I'm going to invest in High-Def for the next several years; until the prices come down.

[Siraris]

RMan and Siraris made some good points. Personally, I could care less about either format but I'll end up having a Blu-Ray player when I get my PS3. And if I have the Blu-Ray player, I'll buy Blu-Ray movies. Also, keep in mind that Sony's future as a company is resting almost entirely on the success of Blu-Ray. Howard Stringer has pretty much admitted as much. Sony will do everything in their power to make it succeed. They'll take the whole company into bankruptcy if it means Blu-Ray will win the format war. I don't think Toshiba is willing to take it that far.

Sony may depend heavily on it, but Sony won't be the only ones pushing it. With companies like Mitsubishi, Dell, Panasonic, Phillips, etc. etc. behind it, Blu-Ray has a huge backing. Unfortunately, HD-DVD has a lot less behind them. With only Toshiba, NEC and Sanyo as the main members. If you look at who was behind DVD, Sony and Phillips backed MMCD, while Toshiba, Time-Warner, Matsushita Electric, Hitachi, Mitsubishi Electric, Pioneer, Thomson, and JVC backed SSCD. In the end, both had to compromise, but I think it was because of the huge backing of SSCD.

[dimsumx]

I'm buying this relatively inexpensive 30" HDTV (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Samsung-30-Slimfit-HDTV-TXS3082W-/sem/rpsm/oid/147559/catOid/-12867/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do) for Christmas, to go along with my Xbox 360. That's as far as I'm going to invest in High-Def for the next several years; until the prices come down.

With a 30" TV, there's no reason to upgrade to BR or HDDVD...you won't be able to see the difference compared to an upscaling player (which btw, the Xbox360 does using VGA cable).

To make the next gen formats worth it, you'd have to invest in a tv at least 46". Otherwise, don't bother.

[Draft]

Maybe a company with a QA department should start backing Blu Ray?

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1979393,00.asp

Burning Blu-ray discs (BDs), though, was trickier than I expected. One of my first attempts at minting one proved unsuccessful. The included Roxio DigitalMedia SE program works in the typical fashion: You choose which files to burn, click Record, insert a disc, and then wait around for a while. I chose a mix of files (22GB in all) to burn on the single-layer BD and started the burning process. (The drive in the RC310G is dual-layer, but so far, we've received only single-layer media from the vendors.) DigitalMedia SE reported accurately that a 2X BD burn takes approximately 44 minutes, so I walked away for a bit. About 20 minutes later I came back to check the system, moved the mouse, and closed a few background windows I had inadvertently left open. After this, DigitalMedia SE stopped burning and gave me an ominous message that the burn had been interrupted by a background process, and that all applications should be closed during operation. I was shocked, because this isn't an issue with DVD or CD burns—at least not since the early days of DVD and CD-RW drives.

To my dismay, I had my first BD coaster! This regrettable event may have been caused by quirks within the DigitalMedia SE software, or, since the Blu-ray drive is a first-run piece of hardware, it may have unresolved or undiscovered problems. Still, a system shouldn't spit coasters fresh out of the box. Anyway, a subsequent burn to a Blu-ray rewritable disc worked just fine, as did other BD-R archive attempts; I'm assuming this is because I left the system alone and had no extraneous software running. My initial mistake was a painful one, with 25GB and 50GB BD discs costing $20 and $60 a pop. And the post-burn data-verification process was just as tedious as the burn (it took about 44 minutes).
Update: Since we posted this review we have gotten our hands on the handful of shrink-wrapped Blu-Ray movies currently available. Sadly, not one of them will play on this desktop's Blu-Ray drive; each time we try, we get a blue-screen-of-death. So far, it's unclear if this is a hardware or software problem. We're currently working with Sony to resolve the issue. Stay tuned.Seems so?

[dimsumx]

Sony may depend heavily on it, but Sony won't be the only ones pushing it. With companies like Mitsubishi, Dell, Panasonic, Phillips, etc. etc. behind it, Blu-Ray has a huge backing. Unfortunately, HD-DVD has a lot less behind them. With only Toshiba, NEC and Sanyo as the main members. If you look at who was behind DVD, Sony and Phillips backed MMCD, while Toshiba, Time-Warner, Matsushita Electric, Hitachi, Mitsubishi Electric, Pioneer, Thomson, and JVC backed SSCD. In the end, both had to compromise, but I think it was because of the huge backing of SSCD.

That's kinda misleading. Yes the main group may only be 3 companies, but you're neglecting all the general members and associate members of the HDDVD Group. Want to see a list?

http://www.hddvdprg.com/about/member.html

Not only that, they have a huge backing from Microsoft and Intel. Don't assume that it's as one-sided as you put it out to be.

[Siraris]

That's kinda misleading. Yes the main group may only be 3 companies, but you're neglecting all the general members and associate members of the HDDVD Group. Want to see a list?

http://www.hddvdprg.com/about/member.html

Not only that, they have a huge backing from Microsoft and Intel. Don't assume that it's as one-sided as you put it out to be.

I know who are members of both camps, I just included the big ones. Blu-Rays main members include most of the biggest CE companies in the world, while HD-DVDs do not. You also have no clue what the "general members" rolls are, just like you don't in Blu-Ray. I'm going to guess that if the these huge companies are members of the board of directors, they are putting a lot more behind it than the contributors and members. I don't know what the significance is of the lesser groups, they could just be on there incase the format does succeed or because one of their algorithms got in there. I'm very sure that the people on the Board are big contributors and are pushing hard for the format and Blu-Ray really outnumbers HD-DVD on that front.

It's all speculation since I'm not a member of either. I could be dead wrong and Toshiba could have 10x the support that Blu-Ray does. I just don't see as big as push, and as many announced players from different companies for HD-DVD as Blu-Ray

[Kamalot]

Why would both formats lose? You have every major movie studio and almost every major CE company in the world backing one or both of these formats (more on the Blu-Ray side). I seem to remember a fair number of companies backing UMD as a format as well, until they realized they weren't selling enough of them. The mass market isn't ready for these HD formats. They provide limited benefits at astronomical costs. It is a very real possibility that neither are adopted any more than LaserDisc.

All of these people decide the standards we use, the technology that goes into our TV's, and what we watch our media on. The sad truth is, they chose what technology we get, and then we pick which of those, as consumers, we want to buy.This isn't a sad truth. This is perhaps the best thing about the world we live in. We aren't being forced to buy any of these new formats. If you don't think these discs and players are worth the price, don't buy them! Just like UMD, companies will give up on formats that people don't want.

As consumers, WE choose the formats we want to buy. If HD-DVD is choice #1 and Bluray is choice #2, there is a choice #3: don’t buy either.

[Siraris]

I seem to remember a fair number of companies backing UMD as a format as well, until they realized they weren't selling enough of them. The mass market isn't ready for these HD formats. They provide limited benefits at astronomical costs. It is a very real possibility that neither are adopted any more than LaserDisc.

This isn't a sad truth. This is perhaps the best thing about the world we live in. We aren't being forced to buy any of these new formats. If you don't think these discs and players are worth the price, don't buy them! Just like UMD, companies will give up on formats that people don't want.

As consumers, WE choose the formats we want to buy. If HD-DVD is choice #1 and Bluray is choice #2, there is a choice #3: don’t buy either.

I don't know anyone who really backed UMD except for Sony, and some movie studios decided to release movies for it, but to my understanding it was a Sony only product. If you have a link, I'd be interested in seeing.

The sad truth is not that we can make a choice about which we want, it's that we only have whatever they give us to pick from. Many people don't want any Hi-Def formats, yet they are here and we have to pick one. I'm personally very happy to have Hi-def movies, as I broke the seal and watched HD cable and I can't go back now, but many others haven't.

The point is, we can't say, "We want all our movies streamed over hi-speed internet", or "We want all our movies on holographic optical drives" we have to say "We choose blu-ray" or "we choose HD-DVD", and then we wait until something else comes along.

[Johan]

As consumers, WE choose the formats we want to buy. If HD-DVD is choice #1 and Bluray is choice #2, there is a choice #3: don’t buy either.

QFT...and I'm all over choice #3.

[Kamalot]

The point is, we can't say, "We want all our movies streamed over hi-speed internet", or "We want all our movies on holographic optical drives" we have to say "We choose blu-ray" or "we choose HD-DVD", and then we wait until something else comes along.You can say just that. Write to your cable company. Write to your phone company. Write to the companies that are working on holographic discs, write to the movie studios. Tell them what you want.

Best of all, this is the Internet. You don't seem to have a problem standing up and fighting for something you believe in. You seem stalwart in defending Sony for the PS3. Why then do you sound like a victim when it comes to HD formats? Not buying into expensive options with questionable value is a valid option! I'd expect you to be a bit stronger in your convictions Siraris.

[Siraris]

You can say just that. Write to your cable company. Write to your phone company. Write to the companies that are working on holographic discs, write to the movie studios. Tell them what you want.

Best of all, this is the Internet. You don't seem to have a problem standing up and fighting for something you believe in. You seem stalwart in defending Sony for the PS3. Why then do you sound like a victim when it comes to HD formats? Not buying into expensive options with questionable value is a valid option! I'd expect you to be a bit stronger in your convictions Siraris.

Oh please, that's like telling me to write to the white house asking them to pull out of Iraq or lower taxes. You know that would never work. I'm fine with standing up for my convictions and trying my best to overcome all odds, but I also pick my battles.

[Kamalot]

Oh please, that's like telling me to write to the white house asking them to pull out of Iraq or lower taxes. You know that would never work. I'm fine with standing up for my convictions and trying my best to overcome all odds, but I also pick my battles.
You pick your battles? So, you stand up for your convictions where it is easy and cave in on HD movie formats?

You would be SHOCKED to see what well-thought-out arguments can do on the Internet. I have some contacts in a major cable company. When they see people writing things on the Internet, stuff get done.

You AREN'T powerless out here.

[Maskatron]

At least Netflix are carrying both formats. If you were already planning on PS3, it's not like you actually have to buy the discs.

Persoanlly, I've been weening myself off of the "collector" mentality and not buying many movies any more, and selling off dvds more often. Movies are easier to find more than ever, be it Netflix, On Demand, Cable, and er, other locations.

[Mr.Condescension]

Damn, I'm not featured in Kamalot's signature anymore. I need to get back to work! :p

[holysin]

Bluray using mpeg2 is something that simply doesn't make sense to me. Why didn't they go with H.264? Is it somehow exclusive to HD (doubtful)?
Toshiba should be blowing that horn, most people think HD-DVD is worse because it has 20GB less on a dual layered disc, but isn't 30gb with H.264 better than 50GB with mpeg2?

At least Netflix are carrying both formats. If you were already planning on PS3, it's not like you actually have to buy the discs.

Persoanlly, I've been weening myself off of the "collector" mentality and not buying many movies any more, and selling off dvds more often. Movies are easier to find more than ever, be it Netflix, On Demand, Cable, and er, other locations.

Ands, just like Cable or On Demand, you can already get some (although limited selection) movies in 720p, 1080i and 1080p from these, er, other locations :)

[Goronmon]

Many people don't want any Hi-Def formats, yet they are here and we have to pick one.Well, this sucks, I can't believe someone will be holding a gun to my head and force me to buy one of the HD formats. I wish I could just wait and see if either of the formats succeed or fail, but I can't because I am going to have a gun to my head. That sucks. :(

[Sensei-X]

Well, this sucks, I can't believe someone will be holding a gun to my head and force me to buy one of the HD formats. I wish I could just wait and see if either of the formats succeed or fail, but I can't because I am going to have a gun to my head. That sucks. :(

Don't worry, we HAVE to pick an HD video disc format much the same way the industry assured us we HAD to pick a winner in the SACD vs DVD-Audio "war".

[Siraris]

Well, this sucks, I can't believe someone will be holding a gun to my head and force me to buy one of the HD formats. I wish I could just wait and see if either of the formats succeed or fail, but I can't because I am going to have a gun to my head. That sucks. :(

No, you aren't important enough to have any say. Everyone else will make the decision for you.

[Kamalot]

No, you aren't important enough to have any say. Everyone else will make the decision for you.
Everyone has a say in this format war. If you don't like the new formats, don't buy them. Vote with your wallet.

[Bubby]

With a 30" TV, there's no reason to upgrade to BR or HDDVD...you won't be able to see the difference compared to an upscaling player (which btw, the Xbox360 does using VGA cable).

To make the next gen formats worth it, you'd have to invest in a tv at least 46". Otherwise, don't bother.

You are wrong.

[Pumped'Up]

Btw, Samsung, a giant in the industry, is supporting only BR.

[Serapth]

Btw, Samsung, a giant in the industry, is supporting only BR.

LOL... you sure about that? (http://www.engadget.com/2006/06/21/samsungs-hd-dvd-blu-ray-combo-player-just-in-case/)

[Kamalot]

You are wrong.I like your statements. Care to show evidence? Perhaps people's eyes aren't enough to decide when they need an HD player.

[Serapth]

I like your statements. Care to show evidence? Perhaps people's eyes aren't enough to decide when they need an HD player.

Actually I have to side with him on this one. On my 43" HD tv, I recently got HD cable, and when I go from up converted SD signal to a true HD signal, its like night or day. On a smaller tv the details will be less noticable, but still noticable.

[Mr.Condescension]

Actually I have to side with him on this one. On my 43" HD tv, I recently got HD cable, and when I go from up converted SD signal to a true HD signal, its like night or day. On a smaller tv the details will be less noticable, but still noticable.

I was at a bar last night watching K-1 fights on ESPN-2. They had 2 TVs at 30" or less tuned to that station, one HD and one SD. Man, the detail difference was staggering from 15-20 feet. Nothing like watching a cut man work in HD. I think the "HD not noticeable except on large TVs" idea is a complete myth.

[Pumped'Up]

LOL... you sure about that? (http://www.engadget.com/2006/06/21/samsungs-hd-dvd-blu-ray-combo-player-just-in-case/)
Yes currently. LOL... :rolleyes:

[Bubby]

I like your statements. Care to show evidence? Perhaps people's eyes aren't enough to decide when they need an HD player.

Impossible to post picture type evidence but my eyes have a ridiculously good correction with rigid contact lenses in them. If people's eyes aren't enough to decide then what is? Their freaking ears? That qualifies as the dumbass argument of the year.

If you are going to task me with showing some evidence you damn well look like a fool for not giving me a reason too, such as your own evidence.

[Kamalot]

Impossible to post picture type evidence but my eyes have a ridiculously good correction with rigid contact lenses in them. If people's eyes aren't enough to decide then what is? Their freaking ears? That qualifies as the dumbass argument of the year.

If you are going to task me with showing some evidence you damn well look like a fool for not giving me a reason too, such as your own evidence.I thought perhaps you had results of a study. It would only make sense to conduct a study with random people asking them to view different sets of different sizes showing different signals. One could build a matrix of the results to find out at what point people can't tell the sifference between HD and SD signals on various size TVs. I'd also include people's vision rating as well to see how that factors in.

It wasn't a stupid question. I thought you had access to data. The conviction of your original post implied that you had access to information and data to back it up.