Sony Promises Turnaround, Shares off Nearly 50%

[Johan]

The AP is reporting pressure is mounting on Sony head Howard Stringer, as the company is losing money and has seen its share price drop by nearly 50% in the last five years.

Sony (http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060622/japan_sony.html?.v=3) is troubled, so is Microsoft (http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?guid=%7B3A4AD3EE-1B66-4257-BED8-FA72A3B77AFB%7D&siteid=vert&dist=). Gaming stocks aren't doing much better either (http://news.morningstar.com/news/DJ/M05/D30/200605301605DOWJONESDJONLINE000612.html).

Stringer faced some disgruntled investors who demanded to know why Sony was losing money. In the January-March quarter, its losses widened to 66.5 billion yen ($578 million) from a 56.5 billion yen loss a year ago...Sony has a lot banking on the PlayStation 3 video-game machine, the upgrade for the successful PlayStation 2, but delayed its introduction by several months to November.
The Playstation 3 seems to be much more important to Sony's success, as opposed to the importance of the 360 to MS's overall success. MS has the financial ability to bleed money ($4 billion in Xbox losses), though they have their own troubles. Sony seems to rely more upon its gaming division for a healthy portion of its profitability. The stakes are certainly high, and I for one hope they both succeed ... but is the gaming industry heading for some choppy waters financially?

Edit: Look here (http://www.gamespot.com/ds/puzzle/brainagetrainyourbraininminutesaday/news.html?sid=6147056) for Nintendo's happy investor news ;)

[benig]

but is the gaming industry heading for some choppy waters financially?Nope. Nintendo is doing just fine. see?
http://www.nintendo.com/status

[bapenguin]

Nope. Nintendo is doing just fine. see?
http://www.nintendo.com/status

Heh. That's pretty funny.

Wish it were true for the whole industry though. Most companies are having financial difficulties. Take 2, Atari, Midway, Activision. Not to mention the big guys likes Sony and MS.

[Johan]

Nope. Nintendo is doing just fine. see?
http://www.nintendo.com/status

:) A-OK, eh? How about here (http://www.gamespot.com/ds/puzzle/brainagetrainyourbraininminutesaday/news.html?sid=6147056) for Nintendo's happy investor news ;)

It is interesting to see such a contrarian company running contrary to the industry as a whole and actually MAKING money, eh?

[AniAko]

Nintendo FTW! ;) Like them or not, they're doing it right.

[Abednigo]

Nintendo is enjoying 3rd place, sitting on their mountain of money from Pokemon. ;)

[benig]

When you really think about it, what Nintendo does is actually quite amazing. They produce two very different platforms, and develop some of the best games available for them, innovate in some very cool ways (Donkey Kong Jungle Beat!), create tons of second parties and still manage to turn a profit.

[Lunar Blue]

"Relaaax guys, you need a rest, it's all good!"

[Johan]

"Relaaax guys, you need a rest, it's all good!"

Unless you own stock (did you read any of the articles?) and, say, bought Sony shares at $120 and now own $43 stock (this would be a drop over more than the five years I used to title this thread as a 50% loss) :( Ultimately, the investors are the ones that count, and they're pretty pissed at a number of companies right now because their portfolios are shrinking in value.

Sadly, it's not just about the games...it's about making money for the real owners (investors/stockholders).

[joruussuun]

Yeah, I believe Nintendo has posted a profit in every quarter (except for 1 or two I believe - recently, a couple years ago - and I may even be mistaken about that) in it's entire 117 year history.

[Roc Ingersol]

Why are they losing money? Is anyone asking that question honestly?

huuuuuge investment in Cell.
huuuuuge investment in Blu-Ray.
huuuuuge mistake tying both to the only dependable revenue stream they've got.

If the PS3 fails, Sony's in a world of shit.

[Liquidize105]

Of course it's about games, that's the business. As for the quality, well, I don't even know what exactly drives sales anymore; there's some of everything I suppose. A big one is "accessibility" nowadays.

[Johan]

Of course it's about games, that's the business.

No...that's the product. The business, as always, is to make money for investors. How to get there? Doesn't matter; investors want profit, whether through cost-cutting, price increases, technological advancements, marketing, or other mechanism. The business is making money. My point was that to the gamer it's about the games, but to the suits that's not the issue; it's about money.

Microtransactions ought to prove this point, anyway...themes and pictures? To make money...

[Liquidize105]

See, that's the big part of the underlying philosophy of do you put the product first or profit first?

Every consumer business under the sun really is about creating "happiness," that's on a primal level. By giving people happiness in newer and more exciting ways, many companies are able to overtake the competitors. In order to make, you have to give - the more you give, the more you make. This "spend the least to make the most" only works well if that's what everybody does. Apple anyone?

[Goronmon]

If the PS3 fails, Sony's in a world of shit.I don't think that the PS3 being a total failure is actually a realistic expectation in anyones mind.

[Goronmon]

See, that's the big part of the underlying philosophy of do you put the product first or profit first?Responsibility goes to the shareholders first.

[Pantsmonkey]

The stock drop wiped out more than $3 billion in wealth for Microsoft co-founder and Chairman Bill Gates, who saw his stake cut to $23.6 billion.

Interestingly enough I got a random bill today for $310 I have a total of $2300 in the bank. I bitched and moaned for an hour about that reading that I just thought wow!

The industry is changing and so is my thinking re Sony not relying super heavily on it's gaming sectors profitability.

You will be able to do some truly revolutionary things on the DS and Wii in combo and a lot of them might not be specifically game oriented. Opera Wii launched the other day I am really interested in seeing how that pans out too.

Very interesting news.

[Citizen Philip]

MS has it's PC monopoly.
Sony has it's hardware and media.
Nintendo is wily like a fox.

I think the gaming industry could use a good collapse: which is the opposite of a bad collapse where everything gets merged into EA. A good collapse is where the market breaks out of its sequel rutt, tries new stuff and we all live gaming happily ever after.

[Liquidize105]

Responsibility goes to the shareholders first.
That's what shareholders want, results. They don't really care for the means if the results are there.

Besides, being successful is being very responsible.

[jacktion]

Nintendo is enjoying 3rd place, sitting on their mountain of money from Pokemon. ;)

But really, as a company, Nintendo is in first place. In business terms they are dominating Sony and MS. If you go by sheer numbers of consoles sold, they are in 3rd but in terms of success, Nintendo totally won last generation's battle.

[benig]

What sort of worries me that even though there is a system with such a large userbase, like the PS2, that we will probably never see again, the development houses and publishers developing for it are STILL struggling. How can there be 100 million people who can use your product, but you still fail to make money?

[Johan]

...a bad collapse where everything gets merged into EA.

Isn't that already happening? ;) here (http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/6393/EA-Buys-Criterion/) AND Here (http://wireless.ign.com/articles/674/674515p1.html) AND here (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/12/13/news_6114977.html) AND here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4112605.stm)

What sort of worries me that even though there is a system with such a large userbase, like the PS2, that we will probably never see again, the development houses and publishers developing for it are STILL struggling. How can there be 100 million people who can use your product, but you still fail to make money?

Dang, that's a good point.

[Liquidize105]

What sort of worries me that even though there is a system with such a large userbase, like the PS2, that we will probably never see again, the development houses and publishers developing for it are STILL struggling. How can there be 100 million people who can use your product, but you still fail to make money?
Well, the money made is funneled into R&D among other things, so the next product is under a lot of pressure to succeed. Sony's been bleeding in every one of its consumer product dep. except gaming.

It's bad business.

[Pantsmonkey]

See, that's the big part of the underlying philosophy of do you put the product first or profit first?

Every Good consumer business under the sun really is about creating "happiness," that's on a primal level. By giving people happiness in newer and more exciting ways, many companies are able to overtake the competitors.

There is a lot of companys in the world that don't make tech advances anywhere near as often. Milk companys have been doing the same thing for years it's not likely to change. Its a grind industry where you cannot just release a new kind of Milk ever 5 years.

At the end of the day everyone drinks milk. They need it. Gaming is a want industry and I agree it's about creating happyness.

There is a tonne of shitty companys pumping out shitty products that people just buy, millions of pieces of shitty software and hardware get released all the time it never stops coming. And they will live on.

Sony Nintendo and Microsoft just have a loftier position in the minds of the people that actually care about there products. If they do not create the happyness its all over unlike other industries they cannot get away with releasing crap for long.

[Johan]

Sony Nintendo and Microsoft...unlike other industries they cannot get away with releasing crap for long.

I agree with everything you said in your extended quote, but it occurred to me that the Windows OS might disprove the comment above ;)

And actually, Sony (and all Japanese electronics companies) were known for pumping out crap in the '70s and survived to grow into quality manufacturers. My mom remembers how everyone considered Japanese stuff garbage in her younger years...

[Chainsaw Killer]

sonys gunna get big with the ps3 because everyone wants it

No not the people that have the X360

[Magnanimous Gnome]

This is indeed very interesting. Something to pull up the next time Nintendo haters start spewing that crap about how the company is screwed and will soon go software-only.

[benig]

What happens next generation when games cost the same or slightly more, with smaller userbases on all three platforms, that have mostly irreconcilable development differences (Preventing easy cross platforming), and development costs are several times what they are now?

[Liquidize105]

@ pantsmonkey

I still think it's every business under the sun, pretty much. Not everybody's idea of "happiness" is the same, less articulate products (we see this in gaming alot nowadays) still sell a ton if it's perceived to have a positive effect for a duration. Sometimes it's not about being better, but being different.

Advertizing is the other way around: By associating a desirable image with a product, we're creating a sense of "shallow" happiness of being perceived as better than the competitor when it isn't. It's the whole "we're good as long as we're better than anyone else" and "be the best there is."

[NoName]

I don't think Sony is teh doomed, but it'll be interesting if Blue Ray doesn't become wide spread and the PS3 looses market share. I think there's a strong possibility that both of those will happen. Hopefully it'll force Sony to rethink it's business practices.

[Chainsaw Killer]

This is indeed very interesting. Something to pull up the next time Nintendo haters start spewing that crap about how the company is screwed and will soon go software-only.


nintendo is crap whoes gunna wanna use thoses clunkey controls on the revolution and they are still working on the controler with new models.I better read what it says about it in game informer :D

[AntB]

Unless you own stock (did you read any of the articles?) and, say, bought Sony shares at $120 and now own $43 stock (this would be a drop over more than the five years I used to title this thread as a 50% loss) :( Ultimately, the investors are the ones that count, and they're pretty pissed at a number of companies right now because their portfolios are shrinking in value.

Sadly, it's not just about the games...it's about making money for the real owners (investors/stockholders).

You gotta be a fucking moron to lose 50% of your stock value. And you gotta be a fucking douche to hold on to a stock thats losing value that fast. And you gotta be even more retarted to hold on to a stock longterm and not do any research on it. Do you see what sony's stock is worth right now? That's from IRAs, Mitual Funds and Amateur Investors. No one smart has any money in Sony right now.

[Hellstorm]

Nintendo's profits can be attributed to this man:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b8/Tom_nook.gif

[Chainsaw Killer]

hahahahahahahahah squirl man

[AniAko]

nintendo is crap whoes gunna wanna use thoses clunkey controls on the revolution and they are still working on the controler with new models.I better read what it says about it in game informer :D

You forget, they have a traditional controller as well for the system.

Nintendo's profits can be attributed to this man:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b8/Tom_nook.gif

Tom Nook's a Friggin' P.I.M.P. man

[zrikz]

I was trying to look into seeing about buying some nintendo stock, where in the world can you even do that? anyone know antyhing about stock purchasing? =/

[Johan]

I was trying to look into seeing about buying some nintendo stock, where in the world can you even do that? anyone know antyhing about stock purchasing? =/


I'm a DRIP investor (Direct Reinvestment)...no broker and such. Nintendo, to my knowledge, is not available through that route. Info here (http://dripinvesting.org/drips.htm) and here (http://www.fool.com/dripport/2000/dripport000516.htm)

You could try here (http://www.sharebuilder.com/sharebuilder/Research/StockDetail.asp?Symbol=NTDOY) for a cheap (there are some fees, and you need the money for the stock, too) entry point into stocks. Look at the 52 week low and high for Nintendo, however, and be aware that stocks are not for the faint of heart...if you buy high and sell low when you get nervous, you're in a pickle. If your stock drops and you don't sell early enough, you could be even worse off (Lucent, anyone?). It's a bit of a gamble, but a good one overall, with some research and care.

[imagecreature]

I was trying to look into seeing about buying some nintendo stock, where in the world can you even do that? anyone know antyhing about stock purchasing? =/

Try Schwab.com, they have a brick and mortar office in mid to large towns and the website tools are great.

By the way Nintendo is has been bouncing around between 20 and 22 dollars since E3. I bought in a week before when it was at 18. If it is a good Xmas for N, I will be happy.

[fitbabits]

Could this be a case of Sony overpromising and underdelivering with the PS3? :rolleyes:

[Lothair]

You gotta be a fucking moron to lose 50% of your stock value. And you gotta be a fucking douche to hold on to a stock thats losing value that fast. And you gotta be even more retarted to hold on to a stock longterm and not do any research on it. Do you see what sony's stock is worth right now? That's from IRAs, Mitual Funds and Amateur Investors. No one smart has any money in Sony right now.

So that's what they teach in business school. :D

[Doctor Setebos]

Could this be a case of Sony overpromising and underdelivering with the PS3? :rolleyes:That definitely seems to be the trend for all the game companies these days. Promise the world, deliver a shantytown, and pray that you sell enough to try it again. :D

[Serapth]

You gotta be a fucking moron to lose 50% of your stock value. And you gotta be a fucking douche to hold on to a stock thats losing value that fast. And you gotta be even more retarted to hold on to a stock longterm and not do any research on it. Do you see what sony's stock is worth right now? That's from IRAs, Mitual Funds and Amateur Investors. No one smart has any money in Sony right now.


Tell that to anyone that lost money on Enron.

Or Nortel.

Or Lucent.

Or Palm.

Companies can and do lose 50% overnight all the time. Some of which ( see above ) are considered Blue Chip. I took a bath on Nortel a few years back, and the only way I managed to come out on top was by chasing the lose. ( By double the stock at the reduced price, repeat until you have broken even... painful thing to do, btw. ).

I also know people that lost their shirts on airlines immediatly after 9/11. All the research in the world aint gonna help you if get hit by a whammy.

Granted, Sonys stock has been in a downward spiral for quite a while, the writing was quite literally on the way. Microsoft on the other hand, im VERY close to buying right now, especially now that the market has weathered the news of Bill Gates retirement without much change. Hell, the only one left to leave/boot is Balmer, and frankly the street is calling for his head already, so that would lift the stock.

[Karmakin]

What happens next generation when games cost the same or slightly more, with smaller userbases on all three platforms, that have mostly irreconcilable development differences (Preventing easy cross platforming), and development costs are several times what they are now?

That's the question really. I'm glad that somebody asked it.

3rd parties are hurting, not only are they hurting, they're heading for a cliff. Sony and MS have perpetuated an arms race that signals big huge problems for most of these companies.

I think you'll still see AAA+ titles created for the 360 (and more so the PS3 to be honest), but most of the A games probably you'll see on the Wii. By making graphics less of an issue, Nintendo have done developers a huge favor. As well, by making it clear that no, not every game NEEDS to use the new controller, they're being friendly to smaller developers who have a neat little idea, want to make a small game and sell it for a low mass market cost.

That's the new economic model that Nintendo wants to introduce. I really doubt they did this in a vacumn.

[AntB]

Tell that to anyone that lost money on Enron.
Or Nortel.
Or Lucent.
Or Palm.


Umm, there were like 50 million indicators in Enron that you should sell, matter of fact for any of those companies. Just look at their previous charts. So if you were a muppet, of course you lost some money. But then again if you lost ALL your money on one of these companies, you deserved to have your money taken from you.

[jeffbax]

Heh. That's pretty funny.

Wish it were true for the whole industry though. Most companies are having financial difficulties. Take 2, Atari, Midway, Activision. Not to mention the big guys likes Sony and MS.
Maybe if those companies made some games worth buying recently, they'd be doing better.

The last "Atari" game I bought was UT2004 I think... now Midway has that. I haven't bought a Midway game since like... Rush on N64 (which I don't have anymore).

Activision is dead to me... cept for some cheap Spider-Man Ultimate action I recently got.


I can't really think of anything that sets any of those companies apart either. They are some of the worst offenders in the generic crap games right up there with EA.

[Roc Ingersol]

I don't think that the PS3 being a total failure is actually a realistic expectation in anyones mind.
It doesn't have to be a total failure.
It just has to fail at carrying the entire company on its back, plus the new boat anchor.

Sony, as a whole, hasn't been doing very impressively, even with the Playstation's dominance over the last 10 years. And this time around they're fat stacks of cash further in the hole.

All the PS3 has to do, is do roughly as well as the PS2 did for the first couple years, and they're fucked.

[51|RandoM]

You gotta be a fucking moron to lose 50% of your stock value.

Have you paid any attention to the stock market in the past 5-10 years? Any?

Step #1 Get middle america to buy into a new form of gambling called the stock market
Step #2 Forget everything you ever knew about tying the share price of a stock to the actual value of a company and its potential to earn profit outside of stock manipulation. P&E? Who cares.
Step #3 Working on the basis of Step #2, GROSSLY INFLATE stock prices for just about everything that isn't a completely obvious failure
Step #4 Reality knocks on the door, delivers a nasty wake up call. Hmm, market adjustment, or just a crash that nobody wants to call a crash?
Step #5 Everybody who had a "good/great" stock value during the boom now has a crappy stock value, albeit one that is closer to reality. There are a couple notable exceptions to this rule, such as Google, who somehow still gets paid to play with the 'Net.

I'm not saying ignore the value of Sony stock, I'm saying comparing their price today to their price 5 years ago and acting like it is a uniquely Sony issue is pretty ignorant.

Most of Sony's divisions have been troubled, some for a number of years. They need to get over the hurdle of a new console and the bigger hurdle of restructuring their consumer electronics business(in progress). They should be a good deal leaner at that point, and be back to reaping profit from the playstation brand. It would help a bit if Sony Pictures would stop producing high dollar bombs.

[The Vidiot]

Responsibility goes to the shareholders first.
I disagree. In many cases, if you make decisions based on what you think will make the most money, then you often end up with an inferior product that was designed to offend as few people as possible. I think the best companies (Pixar comes to mind) are the ones who create the product first and foremost for themselves and the consumers. When you do that, then the viewers respond, and it ends up being good for the shareholders.

[Butters66]

This is indeed very interesting. Something to pull up the next time Nintendo haters start spewing that crap about how the company is screwed and will soon go software-only.

Good point, but I wonder what Sega's numbers are now? I bet they are laughing even more. No costly console to produce, and they can just make games and put them on all the platforms.

It is software / games that drive platform / hardware sales, not the other way around, even though we like to agrue about the platform all the time.

[bone_matrix]

I first read that as Sony Promises Reacharound. I said to myself "Now, if that isn't flamebait, I don't know what is." Glad to see I was wrong.

Besides that I know nothing of the stockmarket, and I don't like how Sony is still #1, but hasn't really brought anything new to the video game table, other than making discs the most used format over cartridges. But, if Sony closes, that is a lot of jobs lost. Which sucks.

[AniAko]

Sony won't close. But it will trim a lot of fat. They might abandon some markets, but they still make some of the best consumer electronics, hands down.

[AntB]

Have you paid any attention to the stock market in the past 5-10 years? Any?

Step #1 Get middle america to buy into a new form of gambling called the stock market

I pretty much could have stopped there, because ANY serious trader knows that the stock market isn't gambling. This proves that you have no fucking idea what you're talking about. I wasn't concentrating on Sony stock, if you read further down. Also, I'm beggining to learn how to trade options. So yea, I paid a shitload of attention to the market in the past 5-10 years. Stock is related to the company by a mile long rubber band, any serious investor knows this.

Anyway, Sony is not going to be profitable any time soon, and for it to make any good profit, it will have to make a complete 180 in it's consumer relations. Where it, like many other large bohemoths, shit on the consumer to make the extra buck. It comes back to bite them in the face in the end, because consumers start catching on; however slowly.

Customer satisfaction is #1. And alot of people are dissatisfied with sony. You can't keep a company afloat on bullshit gas of marketing for long.

[AntB]

Sony won't close. But it will trim a lot of fat. They might abandon some markets, but they still make some of the best consumer electronics, hands down.

I challange you on that one. Every Sony product I've come across has pretty much been shit. Except maybe their TVs.

[The Vidiot]

Step #1 Get middle america to buy into a new form of gambling called the stock market
People need to learn the value of index funds. Far from gambling, investing in the stock market is a reliable method of making money over the long term. You just have to be willing to wait a while, instead of buying and selling stocks based on a whim.

[Random Seed]

A good collapse is where the market breaks out of its sequel rutt, tries new stuff and we all live gaming happily ever after.


Heh, I'd take a sequel rutt for games I enjoy right about now. This is one nasty, post-Oblivion, pre-Dead Rising lull I've found myself in! ;) Ya, but I know what you mean.

[Random Seed]

I challange you on that one. Every Sony product I've come across has pretty much been shit. Except maybe their TVs.

Personally I think their good stuff is good, and their lower to mid-range stuff is shit. I think if you're going all out Sony is a good name to check out, but if not there are many other much wiser choices out there.

[AniAko]

I challange you on that one. Every Sony product I've come across has pretty much been shit. Except maybe their TVs.

I'll raise you a DVD Player about 8 years old, not one problem, and runs like a champ, a 15+ year Minidisk reader/writer, works like new, and a set of Sony headphones (ran over by a car, wires so old they're held by tape, dropped in a pool, an left in the bottom of a tent bag in a 100F degree shed for 3 summers) until I threw them out last year because they were just nasty and stunk like mildew. Still worked though :)

[AntB]

Okay yea, they're audio division wasn't that bad. I do adore my Sony headphones.

DVD players, meh, overpriced and featureless. The rate of degeneration of equipment isn't always the only quality electronics should be rated for. The build quality of most sony stuff isn't up to snuff either. And, IMO it's all gotten so much worse as of late.

[AniAko]

Okay yea, they're audio division wasn't that bad. DVD players, meh, overpriced and featureless. The rate of degeneration of equipment isn't always the only quality electronics should be rated for. The build quality of most sony stuff isn't up to snuff either. And, IMO it's all gotten so much worse as of late.

I'll have to take your word for it, because honestly I haven't bought many consumer electronics as of late. You can't be on top forever ;)

Although I will also mention a 8 year old Sony Trinitron 20" Dell monitor. That thing is STILL trucking, no color problems, no fading. Then again the technology is akin to that of their TVs I'm sure.

[Serapth]

I pretty much could have stopped there, because ANY serious trader knows that the stock market isn't gambling. This proves that you have no fucking idea what you're talking about. I wasn't concentrating on Sony stock, if you read further down. Also, I'm beggining to learn how to trade options. So yea, I paid a shitload of attention to the market in the past 5-10 years. Stock is related to the company by a mile long rubber band, any serious investor knows this.

Anyway, Sony is not going to be profitable any time soon, and for it to make any good profit, it will have to make a complete 180 in it's consumer relations. Where it, like many other large bohemoths, shit on the consumer to make the extra buck. It comes back to bite them in the face in the end, because consumers start catching on; however slowly.

Customer satisfaction is #1. And alot of people are dissatisfied with sony. You can't keep a company afloat on bullshit gas of marketing for long.


Since about 1999 and the day trader boom, the stock market has been pretty much a crap shoot. Even professional traders struggled through that period of time.

Stock trading isnt strictly gambling, but ANYONE who kids themselves into thinking luck isnt part of trading... well, they are probrably even worse off then people that think its all gambling.

As to the seperate post on index funds, yes you are safer, however you still arent completely safe. A NASDAQ top 50 fund would have lost you your shirt a few years back. The difference is, your spreading your bet between more companies with an index fund. ( Or mutual fund, etc... ).

[Wyrm]

I challange you on that one. Every Sony product I've come across has pretty much been shit. Except maybe their TVs.

QFT, everyone I know who bought a Sony Viao said they were better off using a toddler's "my first computer". I had a sony cd player. It broke. I got another one via warenty. It broke. I got a sony mp3 player. It broke. I got another one via warenty, it broke. My friend had a Sony monitor. It had dead pixels out of the box. I bought a PSP. It sucked ass. It broke. Thank god I bought the warenty. I went and got another. It still sucked ass. I took it back.

I'm on my 4th ps2 right now, and I dont do shit to them except leave them alone. I dont even play DVDs on them (cept for the first one, you know, because I thought they were built to do that) because that makes them break.

Yeah, Sony has a stellar track record with consumer electronics... It's no fucking wonder their stock is down.

[AntB]

As to the seperate post on index funds, yes you are safer, however you still arent completely safe. A NASDAQ top 50 fund would have lost you your shirt a few years back. The difference is, your spreading your bet between more companies with an index fund. ( Or mutual fund, etc... ).

Bleh, mutual funds. *throws up*

Anyway, ever heard of options? No? Well, most professional traders are either day traders, or option traders. And, professional traders don't trade safely. They trade intelligently.

Saying professional trading is gambling is like saying opening up a business is gambling. If you do it intelligently, you won't lose, or atleast loose big. There are exception in any field ofcourse.

[Random Seed]

Wyrm, I think that goes beyond bad luck or Sony products being poorly made, I think they plain don't like you. :)

[Serapth]

Bleh, mutual funds. *throws up*

Anyway, ever heard of options? No? Well, most professional traders are either day traders, or option traders. And, professional traders don't trade safely. They trade intelligently.

Saying professional trading is gambling is like saying opening up a business is gambling. If you do it intelligently, you won't lose, or atleast loose big. There are exception in any field ofcourse.

Yes, ive heard of options, and you can still lose your shirt. All the smartest trades in the world can be blown away by a spot of badluck. Your right, intelligent trading lessens your risk, but never negates it. Anything with a reasonable margin of risk is a gamble. Starting a business is a HUGE gamble, even if your the Donald.

I know a fair bit of this stuff, in a previous jobs I wrote part of Bank of Montreals online investment bank, Investoreline ( www.bmoinvestoreline.com ). Granted, this was close to 10 years ago, but it taught me a hell of alot about trading, which is something I have dabled in ever since. Granted, the last few years have been so insane im sitting pretty idle right now. On the plus side, I have a fairly sizable chunk of money sitting in a money market account waiting to be allocated.

(And like I said earlier, it might just go towards Microsoft stock, something I wouldnt have considered touching in the last 6 years ).

[Goronmon]

I disagree. In many cases, if you make decisions based on what you think will make the most money, then you often end up with an inferior product that was designed to offend as few people as possible. I think the best companies (Pixar comes to mind) are the ones who create the product first and foremost for themselves and the consumers. When you do that, then the viewers respond, and it ends up being good for the shareholders.Its not really something you can disagree with. The job of a corporation is to take care of the shareholders. Whether its by putting out good products, or screwing over customers, whatever ends up best for the shareholders is what the corporation should be doing (from a business perspective, ethical issues aside.)

[The Vidiot]

Since about 1999 and the day trader boom, the stock market has been pretty much a crap shoot. Even professional traders struggled through that period of time.
I’m sorry, I wasn’t clear before: I wasn’t trying to say that day-trading is a sure thing; I just wanted to make it clear that, in the long term, investing in the stock market is a good value. Sure, the market has taken a large dip since 2000 or so, but over the long term, the trend is up up up.

Stock trading isnt strictly gambling, but ANYONE who kids themselves into thinking luck isnt part of trading... well, they are probrably even worse off then people that think its all gambling.

As to the seperate post on index funds, yes you are safer, however you still arent completely safe. A NASDAQ top 50 fund would have lost you your shirt a few years back. The difference is, your spreading your bet between more companies with an index fund. ( Or mutual fund, etc... ).
Nothing is “completely safe,” technically. But over time (as in more than seven years), the stock market nearly always goes up. Just look at historical charts if you don’t believe me. I just don’t want people to get the mistaken impression that the stock market is a haven for idiots who play the lottery. It is nothing of the sort.

[The Vidiot]

Its not really something you can disagree with. The job of a corporation is to take care of the shareholders. Whether its by putting out good products, or screwing over customers, whatever ends up best for the shareholders is what the corporation should be doing (from a business perspective, ethical issues aside.)
Yes, it clearly is something I can disagree with. My point is that sometimes, the worst thing a company can do for the shareholders is to say, “What would be best for the shareholders?”

[The Vidiot]

Anything with a reasonable margin of risk is a gamble.
And over the long term, investing in the stock market does not have a reasonable margin of risk. Now, if you choose not to invest…THAT is a gamble!

[jwbxx]

Too bad ntdoy (nintendo) is a terrible stock to own. I have like 50 shares at 17 bucks and in like 6 years it has only moved up 3 dollars.


I think would be a good buy right about now because everyone thinks it's garbage, But once the hype of the ps3 comes around that baby will shoot up.

Speculation trade? Yes, but hey it's worth a shot.

[Johan]

the stock market nearly always goes up. Just look at historical charts if you don’t believe me.

Sorry, I don't believe you. When the market crashed in 1929, it took until the mid-1950s to return to its level of 1929...25 years!! Check it out here (http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2005/12/100_year_bull_b.html)

Here's a quote: "It took 25 years -- until 1954 -- for the Dow to regain its 1929 highs. I don't believe it will necessarily take that long for Nasdaq -- but I am aware of the outside possibility."

Nasdaq is currently enduring a similar incredible slump, which explains the latter part of the quote.

I invest because I agree that it is the best overall option for a decent rate of return over a lifetime, but that doesn't discount the fact that there have been VERY LONG PERIODS of time when people were screwed by the market and NEVER saw a recovery...as they retired and then proceeded to die before any return in the market to previous highs. AND, some investors who retire at unfortunate moments in stock market history get seriously screwed as well. It's at least a little bit of luck/good fortune, and not just research or smarts.

[hogi]

Also some companies (illegally) want to lower stock prices so they can buy their own company stocks at a lower price. Although I doubt this is the case. I believe Stan Lee was charge with this with Marvel, but cleared off all charges.

Sucks to be me. :( I got Sony Japan stocks for about 100USD. I have them for seven years now. Peaked about six year ago for about 130USD. Bah, you never know these things I guess. Just means I have to hold them a bit loooonger. I got Microsoft stocks too at ~18USD. I am happy about those.

[jwbxx]

Buying stock is the equivalent of an educated bet. You might know a lot about the company, but it’s still a bet. 40% of the volume in the stock market is generated by hedge funds, Funds that heavily buy, trade, and short everyday.

You can lose a lot of money in the market if you don’t follow sound investing principles. But if you value invest, and look for dividend protection your gains should be decent. Compared to trading as in, buying Halliburton at its 52 week high and hoping it will appreciate 10 points so you can pick up a nice capital gain.

I totally disagree with the day trading style of buying stocks for the everyday investor. Jim Cramer, who I think is the best analyst, gives bad information on stock picks because most of his picks are basically trades.

And the speculator loses 90% of the time in the market.

If you invest wisely, seek dividend protection, follow the FED rate, buy low, and sell on strength you really shouldn’t have any problem making money in the market.

People who think corporations are evil, well all they care about is profit. If you don't want to invest in the market and depend on a pension plan or social security for retirement be my guest, but if we learned anything from these last 5 years pensions are anything but reliable. I rather not put my future in the hands of a company that just looks at me as a number.

I'll take my chances with value investing, so far for about 3 years it has been showing me steady returns.

[KamaItachi]

QFT, everyone I know who bought a Sony Viao said they were better off using a toddler's "my first computer". I had a sony cd player. It broke. I got another one via warenty. It broke. I got a sony mp3 player. It broke. I got another one via warenty, it broke. My friend had a Sony monitor. It had dead pixels out of the box. I bought a PSP. It sucked ass. It broke. Thank god I bought the warenty. I went and got another. It still sucked ass. I took it back.

I'm on my 4th ps2 right now, and I dont do shit to them except leave them alone. I dont even play DVDs on them (cept for the first one, you know, because I thought they were built to do that) because that makes them break.

Yeah, Sony has a stellar track record with consumer electronics... It's no fucking wonder their stock is down.

Man, I hear you. Every time I hear about how great Sony stuff is I have to bite my lip. Everything I've had from them has broken down within/just after one year and their customer service was absolutely fucking terrible.

It's gotten to the point where I just don't think it's worth my time buying the PS3 as "The Curse" will just render it a smoking shell 3 days after the warrenty expires.

[Vanthar]

You honestly can't even compare the 3 companies as a whole in terms of earnings. It's easy to say MS and Sony are losing tons of teh munnies and Nintendo is win! In reality, MS and Sony are dropping tons of money in the other markets they are in. Nintendo only does games. I think if we see MS and Sony's game division numbers (disregarding the latest losses of launch years for the two) we'd see some Nintendo-like profit this gen from them.

[The Vidiot]

Sorry, I don't believe you. When the market crashed in 1929, it took until the mid-1950s to return to its level of 1929...25 years!!
…
I invest because I agree that it is the best overall option for a decent rate of return over a lifetime, but that doesn't discount the fact that there have been VERY LONG PERIODS of time when people were screwed by the market and NEVER saw a recovery...as they retired and then proceeded to die before any return in the market to previous highs.
You might be right, if people invested in the stock market by dumping all of their money in the market at one point in time, and then sitting on it and waiting it out. If someone did that in early 1929, then yes, it would take 25 years for their money to return to its original value.

However, people usually don’t invest like that. They invest a little at a time, over a long period of time. It’s called dollar-cost averaging, and it means that you can make money in the market, even if the stock takes 25 years to return to its original value.

Here’s a simple case: Let’s say you invested the same amount on January 1st of every year, starting in 1929. If you did that in 1929, then on January 1, 1930, your money would be worth only 80% of its original value. By 1931, it would be down to 61%, and 32% by 1932. By 1935, only six years later, your money is back up to 94% of its original value. And by 1936, seven years later, your money is worth 130% of its original value. And by 1937, it is worth 156% of its value.

So let me sum this up: If you started investing before the worst stock market crash in history, you will have made a profit within seven years, and your money would have increased by over half within eight, all without the market ever returning to its 1929 highs. Profit within seven years. And I’m sure that if you had invested on a monthly or weekly basis, your profits would have been higher.

[Siraris]

You honestly can't even compare the 3 companies as a whole in terms of earnings. It's easy to say MS and Sony are losing tons of teh munnies and Nintendo is win! In reality, MS and Sony are dropping tons of money in the other markets they are in. Nintendo only does games. I think if we see MS and Sony's game division numbers (disregarding the latest losses of launch years for the two) we'd see some Nintendo-like profit this gen from them.

I doubt it. Microsoft has lost billions on the X-Box. They definitely did not turn a profit last generation. It's not like it matters, they have 50 billion in cash. I bought the stock 11 years ago and it's done great, until recently. It's been in the shitter for over a year now. I dont' really follow Sony, but they aren't too hot too, which is pretty crazy to me. They sold 100 million PS2's, which is equivelant of something like 20 billion in sales just for PS2's, and close to that in PS1's. PS2 and PS1 have sold over 100 million software units, which is another 5 billion in sales, and that doesn't even account for accessories, licenses, etc. Yet they are still leaking money. I'm hoping that Stringer can really turn things around for Sony, or else they are in trouble.

[51|RandoM]

I pretty much could have stopped there, because ANY serious trader knows that the stock market isn't gambling.

You should've stopped there, since you've already missed the point entirely.

I said, and I quote, "middle america".

You know what? serious traders != middle america. Serious traders pump&dump while middle america gets left holding the bag.

[Johan]

However, people usually don’t invest like that. They invest a little at a time, over a long period of time. It’s called dollar-cost averaging, and it means that you can make money in the market, even if the stock takes 25 years to return to its original value.

Agreed...I DRIP invest and dollar-cost averaging (through automatic deductions right into stock) is an awesome way to build a portfolio. You are right on the money; I should have mentioned it in my previous post.

[The Vidiot]

You know what? serious traders != middle america. Serious traders pump&dump while middle america gets left holding the bag.
You know what? If “middle america” invests in the stock market over time, through a 401k or IRA, then yes, they end up making a nice profit over time. Please do a little research before making unfounded statements like this. The stock market is the best long-term investment for middle America, as long as you have patience and don’t “pump and dump.”