Lumines Live Blocked by Micropayments!

[Heretic Machine]

From Joystiq (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/06/20/lumines-live-blocked-by-micropayments/):

Kikizo Games reports that Lumines Live's base package -- which will likely cost 1200 Microsoft points ($15) -- will not include Xbox Live multiplayer. The game's creator, Tetsuya Mizuguchi, recently detailed plans to sell multiplayer support as a separate add-on, although he added that the decision had not been finalized. Lumines Live will also feature licensed music and backgrounds available through premium downloads.
Original article available here (http://games.kikizo.com/news/200606/106.asp).

This is exactly the kind of thing I was worried about when the subject of micropayments was originally brought up...

[bapenguin]

Well...here's the thing. This is good because if you don't want multiplayer you don't have to pay for it. It's bad because you are still paying 15 bucks just for the single player.

[RMan]

This is exactly the kind of thing I was worried about when the subject of micropayments was originally brought up...
Well, some developers will do this type of thing, and some will overcharge their customers, that's really not unique to any distribution method. I wouldn’t really get upset about them separating the MP and charging more for it, technically that’s a better system since those interested only in SP don’t have to pay for MP. I’d say it’s only a valid complaint if the value of the products falls short, but that has nothing to do with how many components are being sold for the product.

[Heretic Machine]

Well...here's the thing. This is good because if you don't want multiplayer you don't have to pay for it. It's bad because you are still paying 15 bucks just for the single player.

Ya, but Lumines is quite expensive as it is. Compare it to Marble Blast Ultra, Street Fighter, or Small Arms. You could buy all three for the price of Lumines "basic."

[Dr.Finger]

If it's going to cost $15 for singel player and God knows how much more for multiplayer, then it isn't a 'microtransaction' anymore, it's an inexpensive regular title.

[MSUStud911]

For $15 you should get the multiplayer built in for crying out loud. The most expensive XBLA game to date and it's not playable over Live? C'mon.

[Returner]

The game is worth the price don't like it don't buy it.

[RMan]

You could buy all three for the price of Lumines "basic."
Agreed, that seems a high price. Your original complaint, however, seemed to be complaining about the seperation or product components, not the cost of the product.

[maharahaj]

Yeah, but we are already paying for multiplayer by giving 50 dollars a year to Microsoft to do so. If someone doesnt want to take advantage of multiplayer, then they can just skip it. Imagine trying to sell a game like Halo2 or PGR3 and charing $x.xx amount of dollars more for a second disc that included the ability to battle/race online. Essentially this is the same thing only in digital purchase form.

[Grimmjow]

For $15 you should get the multiplayer built in for crying out loud. The most expensive XBLA game to date and it's not playable over Live? C'mon.

I agree, for $15 this game "Best Had" have everything, but im also still not sure if i want to pay $15 for Lumines

[Furious Wang]

If you compare it to the price of the PSP version, its a steal.

[dimsumx]

Is there a definite pricelist for this game in the first place? I thought the $15 price was a rumor. It could well be that the 'basic' version could be $10, and multiplayer would be $5 extra...

[rein]

I thought online play was a standard for all Live Arcade games. They would have been better off just selling the game at $19.99. Did Microsoft put a cap on how much a company can charge for Live Arcade title?

I enjoyed Lumines ok on the PSP. Not enough to buy it again on Live.

[Karmakaze]

They need to lose their ego and drop the price to $8-$10, I'm sure they will end up making more money at that price than $15.

[thenefariousone]

The biggest rip off I see with this is the inability to use your own custom music.

From the interview at Game Informer (http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200606/N06.0615.1711.20306.htm):

GI: Will you be able to use your own music that’s already on your hard drive or on your network with Lumines Live?

Mizuguchi: Right now it’s too difficult to achieve that at this time. In the future that’s something that we’d like to implement.

[Heretic Machine]

If you compare it to the price of the PSP version, its a steal.

The PSP version is portable, and comes on physical media.

I dunno, it doesn't matter too much to me. I wasn't really planning on buying it anyway, Small Arms and Street Fighter look much more appealing to me. But I thought some people around here might like to know.

[Tel Prydain]

Interesting.... still cheaper then the PSP version - but I'll be surprised if it gets a good conversion rate.

[Cool AN]

If you compare it to the price of the PSP version, its a steal.

Yeah, I bought it, full price a couple of weeks after I got my PSP. 15 bucks is pretty cheap compared to that. Then again, I am in Europe, so most American prices, to me, are cheap.

[violentp]

It's decisions like these that's causing this industry to take a bad turn.

If you don't like multiplayer, don't play it. If you do, then play it. It should not involve any kind of monetary transaction.

Shit, why don't we start paying extra for local multiplayer as well? Pay an extra 5 bucks to allow someone to sit next to you and play Halo or Smash Brothers with you.

And in all honesty, whose to say if we're paying less for single player or more for multi?

[rein]

Interesting.... still cheaper then the PSP version - but I'll be surprised if it gets a good conversion rate.

Yea, and Liberty City Stories was cheaper on the PS2. What is the point? It's an old game coming to a different system.

The only thing that had me half excited to get the title on Live was the online play. I'm not paying extra for something that I think should be standard when purchased through a service like Xbox Live. The main point of Xbox Live is a service to allow online play. To offer something for purcahse on the service that does not come standard with online play is ridiculous.

[Reanimated]

A. This game sold for 39.99 on the PSP until just recently. Even now it goes for 20, and the sequel is priced right back up at 39.99.

B. Just because it's more than other games that have been put out doesn't mean it's "expensive". I mean an Aston Martin is "expensive" relative to a fucking Yugo.

C. although he added that the decision had not been finalized.



Amazing how people just totally gloss over that last point. My final point is this - Mizuguchi is god. 15 dollars is a penance to bask in the glory of his devine light.

[StGeorge]

It's decisions like these that's causing this industry to take a bad turn.

If you don't like multiplayer, don't play it. If you do, then play it. It should not involve any kind of monetary transaction.

Shit, why don't we start paying extra for local multiplayer as well? Pay an extra 5 bucks to allow someone to sit next to you and play Halo or Smash Brothers with you.

And in all honesty, whose to say if we're paying less for single player or more for multi?

Exactly... they already coded the multiplayer, they are essentially removing it and saying "nyah, nyah, gots to pay suckas!"

[Psykoboy2]

C. although he added that the decision had not been finalized.

Amazing how people just totally gloss over that last point. My final point is this - Mizuguchi is god. 15 dollars is a penance to bask in the glory of his devine light.

A-fucking-men.

[RMan]

Yeah, but we are already paying for multiplayer by giving 50 dollars a year to Microsoft to do so.
By that logic you can say that you already paid for the console, why should you pay for the game. The game developer didn't get any of that $50 you paid, so they don't really owe you content.
If you don't like multiplayer, don't play it. If you do, then play it. It should not involve any kind of monetary transaction.
I think this is coming more from a position of conditioning, you’re just used to games with multiplayer support having it built in. However, I don’t think this is really the result of it being better or the consumer liking it more, it’s just that that’s the only method that makes sense in the retail market. I’ve bought plenty of games for the SP and never played the MP portion of it, if I could get it for cheaper I’d certainly appreciate that. As long as the integration is smooth, I don’t see how this kind of componentized approach is bad for developers or consumers.

[antoniogaud]

Uh, doesn't the PSP version cost $5 more than that? Yes it does. (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuID=7049703&type=product&id=1108124658051&ref=07&loc) It doesnt include multiplayer either!

Stop yer complainin' peoples! $15 is a good price.

[Ph00p]

LOL, you all love your MICROtransactions so much this is what you get suckers! ROFL! Enjoy! This is only the start since the industry knows they CAN do it and succeed, who do you blame your own fucking stupid selves for buying god damn horse armour skin.

[Cool AN]

Uh, doesn't the PSP version cost $5 more than that? Yes it does. (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuID=7049703&type=product&id=1108124658051&ref=07&loc) It doesnt include multiplayer either!

Stop yer complainin' peoples! $15 is a good price.

Actually it supports ad-hoc mutiplayer.

[*Legion*]

Let's see what the final prices are. If multiplayer is $5, making the whole package $20, that's completely reasonable.

[Jack B]

LOL, you all love your MICROtransactions so much this is what you get suckers! ROFL! Enjoy! This is only the start since the industry knows they CAN do it and succeed, who do you blame your own fucking stupid selves for buying god damn horse armour skin.

Ph00p,

Double LOL to you. :D

How is $15 for Lumines Live on the 360 with MICROtransactions worse than $39.95 + tax at retail?

I hate these all sweeping MICROtransactions are all a ripoff comments. It's like saying anything that costs money is a rip off. MICROtransactions are a form of currency. Every INDIVIDUAL product has a different price and value proposition. Supply and demand and the publishers discretion will determine the price.

And take the time to compare features of both the PSP and the 360 versions... Objectively. I'll wait for an answer.

[Heretic Machine]

Look, just tell me... If Halo 3 shipped without multiplayer on the disc, and forced you to buy the multiplayer for an extra $5 (having the multiplayer up for download on launch day) would you be cool with that? Because I wouldn't.

[Zeal]

$15 is almost laughable. Who would pay that.

[Jack B]

Look, just tell me... If Halo 3 shipped without multiplayer on the disc, and forced you to buy the multiplayer for an extra $5 (having the multiplayer up for download on launch day) would you be cool with that? Because I wouldn't.

My point is that it depends on the price of each option.

If retail was $49.95 for the "complete" version AND the other version was $39.95 for single player only and $9.95 for online, then I'm much happier with the choice.

I think the key is that the sweeping all Micropayments or episodic content situations must all be looked at in the context of the alternatives.

Each situation must be judged individually.

I think many gamers jump to the conclusion that the game publishers are all trying to screw them and that they're making money hand over fist. Follow their stock prices and you'll see they're struggling to make money as much as any other industry.

Micropayments aren't evil. They are a currency tool in the hands of game publishers. Judge each micropayment situation individually. They are all different.

Some will be better, because you will be allowed to buy only what you want in smaller pieces. Some will be worse. All situations will be different. :)

[mkelehan]

The PS2 Lumines is $20. If the multiplayer add-on is $5, that'll bring it up to speed with the PS2 version, which is (probably) inferior.

Bottom line? If you don't think it's worth it, don't buy it. That's the end of the story. That's the free goddamn market. Gaming is a luxury, and as such, if something's too expensive, nobody buys it and it fails. Don't think it's lost on publishers that the biggest earners are Geo Wars and Uno, which both cost $5.

[Heretic Machine]

I agree that not all microtransactions are bad. I have bought several myself, including two Kameo costume packs, and I am looking forward to a couple coming in the future. But this is different, this is a game feature that should be standard. Online co-op wasn't included with Kameo because they hadn't worked out all the kinks when it shipped, but when they did fix it they put it up for download for free. I think that was a wise decision, as again, this is an important game feature.

If they want to put up a bunch of songs and videos for use in Lumines and have them be micropayments, I'm cool with that. But this multiplayer thing crosses the line I've drawn for tolerance of such things. I hope they change their mind, but I doubt they will, they wouldn't of announced something so outrageous unless it was pretty much set in stone. In any case, I'm looking forward to Street Fighter II and Small Arms, so bleh to this.

[ElectricMonk]

So what's the big deal with custom soundtracks? I mean why not just turn off music and turn on the stereo? Why is everybody so excited about the ability to waste time re-encoding your music into a new format just so you can listen to it with an awkward interface?

[MSUStud911]

I'm not gonna quote the obnoxious big red words about a "finalized decision," but I will respond.

I didn't gloss over the words. I just don't believe them. I think this decision has been made and they're testing the waters to see what people say. If the Mizuguchi apologists happily bending over for an assrape outnumber the people who think a LIVE ARCADE game should be playable on Live for no EXTRA charge, then they'll stick with the money-grubbing decision they've already basically made.

[Heretic Machine]

So what's the big deal with custom soundtracks? I mean why not just turn off music and turn on the stereo? Why is everybody so excited about the ability to waste time re-encoding your music into a new format just so you can listen to it with an awkward interface?

...Re-encoding? Why would I do that? My 360 just streams music off of my PC, and it supports MP3's which is what all of my music is in. The interface isn't akward either, and it is better than using a seperate stereo because it is coming from the same source as the game's sound effects, which makes it feel more natural.

[violentp]

I think this is coming more from a position of conditioning, you’re just used to games with multiplayer support having it built in. However, I don’t think this is really the result of it being better or the consumer liking it more, it’s just that that’s the only method that makes sense in the retail market. I’ve bought plenty of games for the SP and never played the MP portion of it, if I could get it for cheaper I’d certainly appreciate that. As long as the integration is smooth, I don’t see how this kind of componentized approach is bad for developers or consumers.

At what point in your gaming cycle did you become comfortable with the idea of developers taking apart what you've had and sold it to you in individual morsels?
I assume by your logic that you would just as easily purchase a game and purchase the case for the game and then pay for the manual seperately as well. They most certainly are not needed.

Developers offering you something new and offering it as a purchased item is understandable Ex:Oblivion. But if you're going to give me something we've always had and then try to sell it to me as a feature, you can kiss my ass. Only a fool will purchase what he already has.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off like an asshole but the idea that there are meetings out there discussing such possibilities is absolutely infuriating to me.

EDIT: By the way, I just read Romero wants to create World of the Dead.

[Johan]

Well, we won't know for certain the final price and/or included features until it's up on XBLA; until then, it's all hypothetical. As far as microtransactions, I'm cool with it because, ultimately, I get to choose whether I want the product or not. I'm not forced to buy it; in fact, I even get to demo it (if it's like every other XBLA title), and then buy it after trying it out (how many retailers let you do that with games on disk??? NONE). I'm also cool with microtransactions because it encourages developers to continue pumping out content for games I love and want to see live on with new material. AND, occasionally, some of it is free (Kameo co-op, for instance). Microtransactions are excellent; if developers unbundle too many features from their titles, they will learn (it is, after all, early in the life of the 360) from the community/consumers and fix that on future titles. It'll all be fine.

[Achilles]

$15 is probably too much given the kind of games that are available for cheaper on Live already. And I do think it’s a mistake to charge separately for multiplayer for a game like this (I don’t think it’ll sell well). You may be able to get away with it on an FPS or something, but you wouldn’t want to do that because you want as many people as possible to try out the multiplayer in order to build the community. ‘Come for the single-player, stay for the multiplayer’ doesn’t really work when there’s an additional purchase involved.

[Paranoia]

Well...here's the thing. This is good because if you don't want multiplayer you don't have to pay for it. It's bad because you are still paying 15 bucks just for the single player.

One reason why I refused to buy Half-Life 2 Episode One content. :p

[RMan]

At what point in your gaming cycle did you become comfortable with the idea of developers taking apart what you've had and sold it to you in individual morsels?
Because I choose not to see it that way. I buy plenty of products that have customization options, allowing me to buy the elements of the product or service I’m interested in. I like that because I don’t like to waste my money subsidizing the development and support of features I don’t use. I like being able to buy a car and pick what I want in it, back when that industry was new you didn’t have the options you do now, and I think it’s better now.
I assume by your logic that you would just as easily purchase a game and purchase the case for the game and then pay for the manual seperately as well.
Hey, if that was practical, absolutely. I generally don’t read manuals, and I keep my disks in folders, so I have no interest in those elements (one of the reasons I like digital distribution).
Only a fool will purchase what he already has.
But you don’t have it, you’re saying you have it because other products had or have it. Again, this is the effect of conditioning.
I'm sorry if I'm coming off like an asshole but the idea that there are meetings out there discussing such possibilities is absolutely infuriating to me.
I think you’re not seeing the upside.

[Jack B]

I agree that not all microtransactions are bad. I have bought several myself, including two Kameo costume packs, and I am looking forward to a couple coming in the future. But this is different, this is a game feature that should be standard. Online co-op wasn't included with Kameo because they hadn't worked out all the kinks when it shipped, but when they did fix it they put it up for download for free. I think that was a wise decision, as again, this is an important game feature.

If they want to put up a bunch of songs and videos for use in Lumines and have them be micropayments, I'm cool with that. But this multiplayer thing crosses the line I've drawn for tolerance of such things. I hope they change their mind, but I doubt they will, they wouldn't of announced something so outrageous unless it was pretty much set in stone. In any case, I'm looking forward to Street Fighter II and Small Arms, so bleh to this.

I'd agree, that if a game is planned for say, $49.95 and it's intended to include Multiplayer or Co-op and they ship early it should have a reduced price if they leave either or both out.

Sometimes it is at a reduced price. Maybe it's at $39.95, when they planned on $49.95. It's always so hard to say, because we don't know what the pricing plan actually was...

Often 2 games are priced identically, but one gets much higher reviews and is a longer game. Some would construe longer (Oblivion for example) as being of higher value.

What's interesting to me is that just as often as not the game that left out something and charges later is accused of ripping people off. Oblivion comes to mind. Most would be hard pressed to find a game that eats up more time for the purchaser or got higher reviews, but they were hammered for having $2 to $3 add on content.

Sometimes the add on content is considered OK, if it comes much later. Half Life 2, Episode One for example is 5 hours of entertainment using the same game engine. If it comes out 1 month after Half Life 2 as a micropayment on Live, Valve would have gotten hammered, but because it came out much later it was OK.

To me it's all strange. Check the reviews before you purchase. Read the back of the box. Check the current price and decide if you want to purchase. If Co-op wasn't included and you knew it, then no foul. If they price it too high, then like Sony or anyone else, that's there call.

Personally, I don't think game publishers should be bound by rules about what must and must not be included. I'm OK, with whatever pricing strategy they decide on. If I don't like it, I won't buy it and if enough of us don't they'll price differently in the future.

Choice for me is good and all things considered I like buying in pieces, so I only purchase what I want. I like Episodic content as well. I don't have to wait as long for Episodic content. If I get bored with the game, I just stop buying the content.

Right now, it's more traditional to include everything for everybody. Here's a good example. I wouldn't have purchase the single player version of Perfect Dark Zero if I had a choice. Say $49.95 for both. $29.95 for Multiplayer or $29.95 for Single player. I'd go with the $29.95 Multiplayer only and save myself $20.

If I really like the game, maybe I spend another $29.95 and all told am out $60 instead of $50, but the choice would be worth it.

That's my take anyway. I like micropayments, choice and buying only the parts I want. Supply and demand will sort itself out. Episodic content and micropayments are still new. It will be hit or miss at times for the near future, but in the end I think we win.

[Jack B]

I think you’re not seeing the upside.

Just saw your post. That's the way I see it too.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

Stop calling these fucking micropayments! $15 IS NOT A MICROPAYMENT. Sheesh. A micropayment is less than $1. Leave it to Microsoft and its legion of idiot-fans to dub first $5 and now FIFTEEN DOLLARS a MICROpayment. Damn guys. I guess I'm making a fucking micropayment when I buy a CD at Target then too.

This whole damn market is going straight to hell. If Nintendo starts pulling this shit on the Wii I'm done.

[violentp]

Because I choose not to see it that way. I buy plenty of products that have customization options, allowing me to buy the elements of the product or service I’m interested in. I like that because I don’t like to waste my money subsidizing the development and support of features I don’t use. I like being able to buy a car and pick what I want in it, back when that industry was new you didn’t have the options you do now, and I think it’s better now.

Hey, if that was practical, absolutely. I generally don’t read manuals, and I keep my disks in folders, so I have no interest in those elements (one of the reasons I like digital distribution).

But you don’t have it, you’re saying you have it because other products had or have it. Again, this is the effect of conditioning.

I think you’re not seeing the upside.

I'm happy you're content with what's being offered to you. You're a much more accepting person than I.

Maybe one day I'll have the pleasure of doing business with you.

[Jack B]

Stop calling these fucking micropayments! $15 IS NOT A MICROPAYMENT. Sheesh. A micropayment is less than $1. Leave it to Microsoft and its legion of idiot-fans to dub first $5 and now FIFTEEN DOLLARS a MICROpayment. Damn guys. I guess I'm making a fucking micropayment when I buy a CD at Target then too.

This whole damn market is going straight to hell. If Nintendo starts pulling this shit on the Wii I'm done.

Micropayments/Microsoft Points is the term used for Microsoft's currency. It's just money without having to whip out a credit card, type it in an look at the back for the security code.

The long term plan is to give away Microsoft Points for contests, tournaments, game play etc, by sponsors, game publishers etc. If you think about the idea of "giving away" points works, but giving away real money? Would it be direct deposit into your credit card account? This also allows parents to give little Jimmy his very own money. It's a nice little system, that's clean and simple (well simple if you can multiply everything by 1.25...).

Although you think of Micropayments as being small, it really is all relative. It's just money. Whether it's 6,000 Microsoft Points or 100. It's just money and what you purchase with it is no different than buying something off Amazon.com or EB Games at retail.

So, direct your anger at the prices of the content or the way content is now sold in pieces instead of the traditional methods, but don't bitch at the "CURRENCY". Microsoft could have just used a credit card number and given Visa, Mastercard, and American Express a percentage of every sale and you'd still be buying pieces of content.

So, think about what you wish for. Valve has been doing digital downloads for a while. Sony will, Nintendo will. Do you want to use a credit card or Points? It's easier with points and cheaper too (ie no fees for Visa..).

Your call, but I think your anger is directed at the wrong thing, IMO.

Remember before we had currency you were trading chickens for blankets... Money isn't going anywhere anytime soon, but it is changing.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

Because I choose not to see it that way. I buy plenty of products that have customization options, allowing me to buy the elements of the product or service I’m interested in. I like that because I don’t like to waste my money subsidizing the development and support of features I don’t use. I like being able to buy a car and pick what I want in it, back when that industry was new you didn’t have the options you do now, and I think it’s better now.


That's completely different. Back when cars were "invented" those options just didn't exist because the technology wasn't there yet! Air conditioning, the radio, etc. didn't exist! This here is a case of getting charged for something that we were getting with our original purchase before. It'd be like having to pay more for an air conditioner in your car. It's a very clear cut case of getting sold a complete game in parts - something that people feared would happen. Of course the Xbox fans said it wouldn't happen, and now that it is they are defending it. Where does the line get drawn at? Did the line just get left behind and no one cares anymore?

[violentp]

That's completely different. Back when cars were "invented" those options just didn't exist because the technology wasn't there yet! Air conditioning, the radio, etc. didn't exist! This here is a case of getting charged for something that we were getting with our original purchase before. It'd be like having to pay more for an air conditioner in your car. It's a very clear cut case of getting sold a complete game in parts - something that people feared would happen. Of course the Xbox fans said it wouldn't happen, and now that it is they are defending it. Where does the line get drawn at? Did the line just get left behind and no one cares anymore?


Thank you.

[Achilles]

Stop calling these fucking micropayments! $15 IS NOT A MICROPAYMENT. Sheesh. A micropayment is less than $1. Leave it to Microsoft and its legion of idiot-fans to dub first $5 and now FIFTEEN DOLLARS a MICROpayment. Damn guys. I guess I'm making a fucking micropayment when I buy a CD at Target then too.

This whole damn market is going straight to hell. If Nintendo starts pulling this shit on the Wii I'm done.They never call it a micropayment in the article. I don't know where the cut-off line is for micropayments, but they're even calling the suggested multiplayer option "premium content". Is that term good by you?

Or are you suggesting that digital distribution for games around or over $15 bothers you. As others have mentioned this isn't a mini-game, it's a full game that's already available on another platform for $17.99 (a year after it came out). If they released Field Commander on XBLA for $20 I'd have saved $10, but I guess you'd be mad they're charging that much for a digitally distributed game?

[Magnanimous Gnome]

Micropayments/Microsoft Points is the term used for Microsoft's currency. It's just money without having to whip out a credit card, type it in an look at the back for the security code.

The long term plan is to give away Microsoft Points for contests, tournaments, game play etc, by sponsors, game publishers etc.

Although you think of Micropayments as being small, it really is all relative. It's just money. Whether it's 6,000 Microsoft Points or 100. It's just money and what you purchase with it is no different than buying something off Amazon.com or EB Games at retail.

So, direct your anger at the prices of the content or the way content is now sold in pieces instead of the traditional methods, but don't bitch at the "CURRENCY". Microsoft could have just used a credit card number and given Visa, Mastercard, and American Express a percentage of every sale and you'd still be buying pieces of content.

So, think about what you wish for. Valve has been doing digital downloads for a while. Sony will, Nintendo will. Do you want to use a credit card or Points? It's easier with points and cheaper. Your call, but I think your anger is directed at the wrong thing, IMO.


Micropayments is a term - it's not something that Microsoft invented. I can't just point at a dog and say "there's a cat." That's not the way it works. I can point at a dog and name it Fido, but I can't start calling it what it isn't without people looking at me funny. The term "micropayments" already existed before Xbox Live - MS didn't invent them. They are SMALL payments - hence the word MICRO. MS just came along and used their "points" to abstract the fact that you are paying money for these things. They should have just gone with dollars and then people would notice how much they are really spending. Using "points" doesn't make your purchases cheaper or easier - that's what MS wants you to think. That's why they use them.

"Oh, it's only 1200 points - no biggie!"

You're explaining your definition of these Points to me as if I am mentally challenged, when really I'm just pissed off at the direction MS is taking the industry.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

They never call it a micropayment in the article. I don't know where the cut-off line is for micropayments, but they're even calling the suggested multiplayer option "premium content". Is that term good by you?

Or are you suggesting that digital distribution for games around or over $15 bothers you. As others have mentioned this isn't a mini-game, it's a full game that's already available on another platform for $17.99 (a year after it came out). If they released Field Commander on XBLA for $20 I'd have saved $10, but I guess you'd be mad they're charging that much for a digitally distributed game?


It has nothing to do with it being digitally distributed. Nothing at all. I'm not a fan of digital distribution, but that's a whole separate argument. I'm upset that people keep calling these things microtransactions, when that's not what they are at all. I'm just fed up with it, and I picked today to blow my top. :p

[Jack B]

Micropayments is a term - it's not something that Microsoft invented. I can't just point at a dog and say "there's a cat." That's not the way it works. I can point at a dog and name it Fido, but I can't start calling it what it isn't without people looking at me funny. The term "micropayments" already existed before Xbox Live - MS didn't invent them. They are SMALL payments - hence the word MICRO. MS just came along and used their "points" to abstract the fact that you are paying money for these things. They should have just gone with dollars and then people would notice how much they are really spending. Using "points" doesn't make your purchases cheaper or easier - that's what MS wants you to think. That's why they use them.

"Oh, it's only 1200 points - no biggie!"

You're explaining your definition of these Points to me as if I am mentally challenged, when really I'm just pissed off at the direction MS is taking the industry.

No, I don't think you're mentally challenged. I just believe "micropayments" or "Microsoft Points" or Sony's new points or Nintendo's (whatever they'll be called) aren't the issue.

I thought you'd say, "yes, it's not the currency I have a problem with, but the fact, that I will at times need to buy things in pieces...".

While I like buying in pieces, I'd have no problem with your opinion, that buying in pieces is not good.

I just don't understand the anger I see from so many at the 'currency'. If it wasn't "points" of some name, it would be Visa, Mastercard, and Amex.

I don't see people bitching at Visa, because of some companies pricing strategy.

That's my point.

[violentp]

Or Mississippi fun bucks

[Jack B]

Or Mississippi fun bucks

Or tokens at an arcade.

[Achilles]

It has nothing to do with it being digitally distributed. Nothing at all. I'm not a fan of digital distribution, but that's a whole separate argument. I'm upset that people keep calling these things microtransactions, when that's not what they are at all. I'm just fed up with it, and I picked today to blow my top. :pI see your problem with the term. There’s nothing micro about this suggested price. However you said that you were sick of Microsoft and fans calling them micropayments, which I took issue with since Microsoft didn’t use that term in this case. Fans (and detractors), yeah they’re using the term wrong.

Nintendo will probably have stuff available like this for the Wii too, like, well, all their old games. Just gotta keep things in perspective; the ‘fans’ are the ones calling these things micro, it’s not an official stance that this is a small amount of money, so I’m just trying to divert your raging fists away from the innocent corporate giants.

I also have an automatic 'oh good grief' reaction to someone declaring that they'll stop gaming. :)

[Kelegacy]

Hah. I love "micropayments" or things of this sort. It's going to end up pushing me right out of the gaming hobby, which could be a tremendous boost to my writer's motivation.

Thank you, Xbox Live and Sony Platform, for giving me my life back!

[violentp]

Hah. I love "micropayments" or things of this sort. It's going to end up pushing me right out of the gaming hobby, which could be a tremendous boost to my writer's motivation.

Thank you, Xbox Live and Sony Platform, for giving me my life back!

Maybe now I'll finally start paying attention at work.

[Cubfan]

That's completely different. Back when cars were "invented" those options just didn't exist because the technology wasn't there yet! Air conditioning, the radio, etc. didn't exist! This here is a case of getting charged for something that we were getting with our original purchase before. It'd be like having to pay more for an air conditioner in your car. It's a very clear cut case of getting sold a complete game in parts - something that people feared would happen. Of course the Xbox fans said it wouldn't happen, and now that it is they are defending it. Where does the line get drawn at? Did the line just get left behind and no one cares anymore?

There are a million examples of products/services that were initially sold as a whole, and then broken down and sold in smaller parts, or versions of the same product sold with less features (i.e. Ipod). I just don't see where you're coming from seeing this as such an outrageous idea. If something has already been 'invented' and featured in a product it should be included by default thereafter? Companies aren't allowed to sell stripped down versions of products? I just don't see your logic.

[Heretic Machine]

That's completely different. Back when cars were "invented" those options just didn't exist because the technology wasn't there yet! Air conditioning, the radio, etc. didn't exist! This here is a case of getting charged for something that we were getting with our original purchase before. It'd be like having to pay more for an air conditioner in your car. It's a very clear cut case of getting sold a complete game in parts - something that people feared would happen. Of course the Xbox fans said it wouldn't happen, and now that it is they are defending it. Where does the line get drawn at? Did the line just get left behind and no one cares anymore?

I'm with you 100%. I said this would happen back when they first started talking about micropayments, and just when I was starting to believe that I was completly wrong about the whole thing, this pops up. It is bullshit, pure and simple.

As for the Oblivion mods, people don't complain about them because they expected them to be packaged with the game. They complain about them because they are shit. Horse armor shouldn't cost $2.00, and neither should any of the homes they've been selling (which are basically a dime a dozen in the modding community, they are the most common form of mod). The newest one, the dungeon, has been met with a much more positive response because it is something that actually deserves to be paid for.

EDIT: Oh, there is one Oblivion premium content mod that should of shipped with the game... The Orrery. The door is there in the friggin game, the keeper of the Orrery is in the game, dialouge and plot about the Orrery exists in the game. They just didn't ship the actual Orrery with the game.

[Siraris]

It seems as if Micropayments are just a way to let developers reel in customers with lower prices, remove features that people want and then make them pay extra to get them. Not only that, but charging $3 or $4 bucks for a new level in games like Oblivion is beyond comprehension. If it was a pack, I'd understand, but in a game that has hundreds of areas to explore, why would I want to spend $3 or $4 bucks on ONE dungeon?

Next thing you know they'll sell you a game, but you have to pay extra for the weapons before you can actually play.

[bapenguin]

Holy shit Gnome is back....and he's angry.

Micropayments are relative. While to most people 15 bucks isn't...I think anything under $5 to most people could be considered.

In my mind, a micropayment is something that you could impulse buy with no remorse with relative ease. Some people that price point is 50 cents, others it's 2 bucks.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

I see your problem with the term. There’s nothing micro about this suggested price. However you said that you were sick of Microsoft and fans calling them micropayments, which I took issue with since Microsoft didn’t use that term in this case. Fans (and detractors), yeah they’re using the term wrong.

Nintendo will probably have stuff available like this for the Wii too, like, well, all their old games. Just gotta keep things in perspective; the ‘fans’ are the ones calling these things micro, it’s not an official stance that this is a small amount of money, so I’m just trying to divert your raging fists away from the innocent corporate giants.

I also have an automatic 'oh good grief' reaction to someone declaring that they'll stop gaming. :)

You're right - in this case MS didn't say anything about micropayments. But they did talk a lot about them when they unveiled the marketplace. MS reps talked about how the market place would let developers release content and games that would be bought with micropayments.

Anyway, many (nearly all in fact) of the posters in this thread kept talking about micropayments, when $15 is definitely not micro.

I have actually greatly decreased the amount of time that I spend gaming, and stuff like this is part of the reason why. Everything has just gotten too corporate and money-hungry. I know that businesses are out to make money, blah blah, but I'd like to believe that many of the developers of yesteryear actually wanted to deliver a great game and not just make a buck.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

Holy shit Gnome is back....and he's angry.


Haha, true. I haven't really posted at all for over a month and now I've made at least six posts in this thread alone. I'm bored. :p

[geckokidd]

I enjoyed Lumines ok on the PSP. Not enough to buy it again on Live.

I sure did. Buying a version on Live that isn't orignally multiplayer is pretty lame though.

[Kelegacy]

Haha, true. I haven't really posted at all for over a month and now I've made at least six posts in this thread alone. I'm bored. :p
I just got back from vacation about a week ago. I still need to check my post history to see whether or not you sullied my good name over the last 2 months.

*checks

Good god, man. You were a bitter bitch! X360 library complaints and attacks on Reanimated? WTF? Now I have to work extra hard to earn the respect you lost me.

[Jack B]

It seems as if Micropayments are just a way to let developers reel in customers with lower prices, remove features that people want and then make them pay extra to get them. Not only that, but charging $3 or $4 bucks for a new level in games like Oblivion is beyond comprehension. If it was a pack, I'd understand, but in a game that has hundreds of areas to explore, why would I want to spend $3 or $4 bucks on ONE dungeon?

Next thing you know they'll sell you a game, but you have to pay extra for the weapons before you can actually play.

I don't agree with much of the gamer paranoia. News flash! 99.9% of everything a corporation does is intended to generate profits.

They generate profits by delivering to consumers something consumers would like to buy at a price the corporation can make money at...

If you really think Micropayments will fool the consumers to such a degree, then you have very little faith in our market economy and the forces of supply and demand. I'd sell your house and invest in gaming company stocks.

But don't plan on getting rich any time soon. Gaming stocks will move just like always and micropayments/digital distribution will exist and it will save money on shipping, packaging, EB Games rent for the retail space and manufacturers will sell episodic content and break up games into smaller pieces.

It happened with music (iTunes/MP3's) and it will happen to gaming. Embrace it or find a new hobby, because it's coming to a game console near you.

[RMan]

This here is a case of getting charged for something that we were getting with our original purchase before.
Again, you’re complaining about your conditioning, not whether or not it’s a good practice. I can’t comment on how important your conditioning is to you, I’m arguing that it’s a good overall distribution method. I only brought up the car example because it’s a common product that allows many options, and like so many others, started out not allowing them. I’m sure many componentized parts of a car started out as standard ones at some point in their life.
It'd be like having to pay more for an air conditioner in your car.
If the base cost was less, and it wasn’t otherwise impractical to make it an option, why would that be bad? I’m sure people in Alaska would like to avoid paying for an option they will never use.

[DeadScreenSky]

The problem with the comparisons to the PSP price is that this isn't the PSP version being offered, even outside of multiplayer. They haven't given exact numbers yet presumably because they aren't finished, but it has something like less than half the skins and a smaller (and mostly different) soundtrack. It's a smaller game, maybe significantly so. This kind of makes sense, thanks to the stupid 30 meg limit in place for XBLA games, but that's also why they shouldn't be costing $15!

If this is released for $15 without even basic features like multiplayer I might just wait for the PS2 port that will most likely cost $20-30 and is already confirmed to contain additional content. I'd love the game in HD, but too many signs are pointing to this being overly expensive and/or content starved, and licensed 'premium' crap from Madonna and the like holds no interest for me. Even just the idea of having to buy extra songs that you can't even preview is a turn-off (has anybody spent the extra $40 on Marketplace to get the rest of the RR6 soundtrack?). The appeal of XBLA isn't in getting a worse deal on less content!

[rein]

I can't understand why people are ok with a company taking out/or not adding a major component in a Xbox Live game and then charging more for that part of the game. It is Xbox Live, it was built to be a community based on online play. I can understand if they want to charge for add-ons like additional songs or levels, but not a major portion of the game. If they want to charge more for the game, they should just charge more for the game. Not try to hide it like they are doing us all a favor.

[Siraris]

I don't agree with much of the gamer paranoia. News flash! 99.9% of everything a corporation does is intended to generate profits.

They generate profits by delivering to consumers something consumers would like to buy at a price the corporation can make money at...

If you really think Micropayments will fool the consumers to such a degree, then you have very little faith in our market economy and the forces of supply and demand. I'd sell your house and invest in gaming company stocks.

But don't plan on getting rich any time soon. Gaming stocks will move just like always and micropayments/digital distribution will exist and it will save money on shipping, packaging, EB Games rent for the retail space and manufacturers will sell episodic content and break up games into smaller pieces.

It happened with music (iTunes/MP3's) and it will happen to gaming. Embrace it or find a new hobby, because it's coming to a game console near you.

Paranoia? It's not paranoia, it's fact, it's here. Horse armor for Oblivion for $3, a new level for $4, extra money for multi-player. Why not just sell the game with multi-player built in? Why does it have to be an extra feature? If this was being sold in the store and it was $35, but you could pay $5 extra online to activate multi-player, I wouldn't complain. It's being sold for $15, which is a relatively low price for a great game like Lumines, but it's being sold online with the idea in mind of playing it multi-player. It's called Lumines Live for godssakes.

I know that corporations are out to make money, you don't have to tell me that, it's not even a bad thing. I don't think this micropayments transaction crap is worth it, though. Take the horse-armor as an example. If 10,000 people order the horse armor, that's $30,000 in profit for Bethesda/MS whomever else gets a cut. The only thing that went into that Horse Armor was MAYBE 2 hours of work for an employee at Bethesda. I have had experience making textures before, and it does not take a long time. I know modelers who can put together a very high quality model in 30 minutes, which is no time at all. The only cost that goes into making that Horse Armor and selling it to the consumer is that couple hours of work by one employee which equates to maybe 1% of the final profit. I'm willing to bet that the horse armor was designed months ago, and either they took it out because it wasn't necessary, or someone at Microsoft said "Let's make this purchaseable online".

My point is, many developers release new levels and textures for FREE, they release add-on packs for games for $10 bucks with all sorts of new levels and weapons, and now they want us to pay 30% of that for one stinking TEXTURE? Now they want to leave out vital parts of games so you have to pay extra for them? It makes no sense. Hell, Wipeout Fusion for PSP had tons of extra content that was FREE.

I actually own gaming stocks, and while they were doing great (Activision has split 4 times since I bought it) they are now tanking...

[Cubfan]

I can't understand why people are ok with a company taking out/or not adding a major component in a Xbox Live game and then charging more for that part of the game. It is Xbox Live, it was built to be a community based on online play. I can understand if they want to charge for add-ons like additional songs or levels, but not a major portion of the game. If they want to charge more for the game, they should just charge more for the game. Not try to hide it like they are doing us all a favor.

Personally, I don't care about Lumines multi-player (honestly). If I can save $5 buying a version without multiplayer, than that's a good thing.

[GoblinToe]

It's quite simple, really. You vote with your dollar every single day. If you don't like micropayments, then don't buy them. If you buy them now, you better be prepared for the future flood.

I loathe Steam, so I won't buy anymore Half-Life 2 or Valve products. I wouldn't have bought HL2 if I had known I couldn't even play the single player game without that bullshit Steam crap checking in over the Internet every time I load the damn game.

I won't support Starforce, so no more games that use that protection.

I bought Oblivion, but not any of their ripoff modules. I do want to support Bethesda, but I cannot, and will not support the micropayment business model. Sorry. I'll continue to buy their games as long as they don't pull some lame activation stunt like Valve did with HL2.

Sure, that may eventually spell the end of gaming for me in the years to come, but it's also caused me to focus more on retro-gaming, which is a blast. Going back and playing PS:T, Jagged Alliance 2, BG2 (for the fifth time), Fallout 2, System Shock 2, etc. Lots of old goodies out there that are far better than most trash released today.

Siraris is right, though. The laws of supply and demand will balance it all out as time goes on. So if you want to end the micropayment madness sooner, rather than later, don't buy them now.

Simple.

[destoo]

All these arguments and everyone is forgetting the important part: Achievements!!!

So a 15$ game would give you access to what.. 600 possible points?
And the multiplayer pack would unlock another 200?

So on average, how much does one gamerscore point cost?

[bean19]

If true, I'll wait however long it takes to get them bundled for one inexpensive amount. I'm very resistant to micro-transactions as they seem to be low-value purchases.

[Dag-Sabot]

If true, I'll wait however long it takes to get them bundled for one inexpensive amount. I'm very resistant to micro-transactions as they seem to be low-value purchases.
Tastefully understated, bravo! [/golfclap]

[Thin_J]

Definitely a non-buy for me without multiplayer for the $15.

[gawaintheblind]

Its almost like digital Lay-away. By the end of it, you may have a full game, unless you want music in which case that'll be another two bucks, thank you very much.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

I just got back from vacation about a week ago. I still need to check my post history to see whether or not you sullied my good name over the last 2 months.

*checks

Good god, man. You were a bitter bitch! X360 library complaints and attacks on Reanimated? WTF? Now I have to work extra hard to earn the respect you lost me.


Thanks a lot! I had everyone convinced that I was off drinking Guiness for the last month and now you've revealed the truth. Bastard.

[Achilles]

You're right - in this case MS didn't say anything about micropayments. But they did talk a lot about them when they unveiled the marketplace. MS reps talked about how the market place would let developers release content and games that would be bought with micropayments.The big deal about micropayments was that they could take a small transaction without the credit card companies eating it. So by using a system where you put money in and then spend it they can enable game companies to sell things for less money without taking a big hit from credit card fees.

This is premium content or a live arcade game, it's not a micro transaction. I doubt they'd even call $5 arcade game a micropayment. If you buy a Ridge Racer song for 50c, or a theme or outfit for $2 that's a micropayment.

[Jack B]

The big deal about micropayments was that they could take a small transaction without the credit card companies eating it. So by using a system where you put money in and then spend it they can enable game companies to sell things for less money without taking a big hit from credit card fees.

This is premium content or a live arcade game, it's not a micro transaction. I doubt they'd even call $5 arcade game a micropayment. If you buy a Ridge Racer song for 50c, or a theme or outfit for $2 that's a micropayment.

Well put.

I keep saying that it's about creating a currency.

Call it Micro/Macro/Mini-transactions or payments..., whatever you want. This size of the transaction is what's important.
Someday, you'll use the same currency (Microsoft Points or Sony Points ect.) to purchase complete games, which will cost a lot more than 50 cents or 2 bucks.

Also, I do believe we will start seeing Microsoft Points given to user accounts for tournaments, as promotions by sponsors (they already have codes for coupons) and by some game companies.

Things like "The first 100 players to get all the achievements in XYZ game get 500 Microsoft Points.". I've heard from Major Nelson, it's setup for that and we could see those type of things in the near future.

We already had Lamborghini sending the top 12 finishers in the Project Gotham Racing tournament last month on a trip to Italy. That must have cost quite a bit.

I could easily see similar gifts/awards etc, with Microsoft Points. It would be much more complicated with Visa card credits and cashiers checks etc.

It's illegal to create your own currency in the US, so at some point the IRS may want to get involved depending on how big this gets, but Microsoft Points definitely simplify giving out "money".

It's about creating a currency with less friction and red tape.

[TrackZero]

Well...here's the thing. This is good because if you don't want multiplayer you don't have to pay for it. It's bad because you are still paying 15 bucks just for the single player.

Hrm. That's true. I could see that happening. Assuming of course the "complete" game would have been $20, and they break it up with $15 for single player, $5 more for multiplayer, well then I support this.

The downside though is that you're fragmenting the market.

[51|RandoM]

Doesn't your gold live subscription cover multiplayer for all of your xbox360 games?


hehehe, guess not.

[baz]

I don't really want to build up a collection of expensive xbox live arcarde games until my purchases are tied to my account. I.e. if my hard drive dies I want to be able to re-download it for free, like steam. As far as I know this isn't the case yet is it?

[Sl1pstream]

It is linked to your account, if you're using a 360 and a gold account.

[phantomhitman]

if its $15 without online/multiplayer/leaderboards than it can completly kiss my mass

[miah]

If you compare it to the price of the PSP version, its a steal.

Really? I paid $20 for my PSP version about 5 months before the price drop brand new at Target. I'm not sure why it was marked so low, or in a different section of the store (it was on a clearence shelf with other games on it near some magazines). But I grabbed it because I knew everywhere else it was atleast $40.

As for the micropayment stuff. Speak with your wallet, and bitch about it online if you don't like it. I've bought lots of stuff off the MarketPlace, but generally stick to game enhancements. I've never bought wallpapers, or gamerpics or any other 'useless' themeing stuff. Others might not find those things useless, so its nice that the option is there. I do have non default wallpapers on mine, that I've unlocked through games or OXM discs, but I wont spend money in the MP for them. I've bought most of the Oblivion mods, except the horse armor, because hell I dont even ride the damn horse, because you cant fight well from it, its a bitch to control, and it doesnt offer you any extra storage.

[miah]

So what's the big deal with custom soundtracks? I mean why not just turn off music and turn on the stereo? Why is everybody so excited about the ability to waste time re-encoding your music into a new format just so you can listen to it with an awkward interface?

re-encode? Last I checked, I could hookup my USB harddrive and listen to MP3's. If I had a Ipod like the rest of the sheep in the world I could use that as well (Sorry guys, IPODS are JUNK). You can even stream mp3's from your windows pc, which doesn't even have to be running MCE. My big problem is that 90% of my music is in FLAC or OGG, so ya I would have to re-encode to listen to alot of that, but the majority of the people out there listen to music encoded in MP3, so they generally will not have problems.

[Cubfan]

Really? I paid $20 for my PSP version..

Yeah, so it's 25% less than the discounted PSP version.

[miah]

I don't really want to build up a collection of expensive xbox live arcarde games until my purchases are tied to my account. I.e. if my hard drive dies I want to be able to re-download it for free, like steam. As far as I know this isn't the case yet is it?

Thats a good point. I'm really not sure how they do it, but I agree it should be tied to your account. I'd hate to have to rebuy all that stuff if my drive fails.

[miah]

Yeah, so it's 25% less than the discounted PSP version.

Not only that, but you can play it on your big TV without cramping your hands on the PSP =). Its a purchase I'm interested in, I'll wait to see how the paymet situation ends up before I make my final decision though.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

Yeah, so it's 25% less than the discounted PSP version.


Yeah, without multiplayer. It's also been stated that this is a smaller game. Less content. It's NOT the same as the PSP version. Not to mention that if you buy the PSP version you're actually getting physical media. Comparing the cost of the two is just stupid.

[jeffbax]

http://www.xbox360fanboy.com/2006/06/23/lumines-fiasco-redux/
Some of you may have noticed a comment from Live Arcade's Ross Erickson on Wednesday's Lumines story. The original post claimed that -- according to Tetsuya Mizuguchi, mind you -- an extra pack would have to be purchased from Marketplace to access online play in Lumines Live. I contacted Mr. Erickson to get to the bottom of this. I asked whether or not he could confirm that Live play will be included with Lumines at no extra cost. I received a one word reply:

"Confirmed."

There you have it folks. Crisis averted. I would have preferred a less terse reply, but I'll take what I can get. So, knowing that Live play is included, will you buy Lumines if it costs fifteen bucks?

[Barrapa]

I love lumines and still play any time I travel and or am stuck in horrendous traffic. If the demo is as good as the PSP version, I'll slap down $15. I'd prefer to only slap down $1 but oh well.

[Johan]

jeffbax...great post/info. One of the biggest drawbacks to the frenzy over pre-release info. is that so much of it turns out to be dried out dino turds by the time the real deal hits the streets; puts my faith in the absolute sanctity of forum info (*cough-cough-sarcasm*) in jeopardy ;)

You almost could have posted a whole new thread over this info, since this thread is old/dead.