The Plot Thickens: Geohot Flees the US? - UPDATE

[Chimpbot]

If Sony's allegations are correct, Mr. George Hotz may be in a heaping pile of trouble. They've recently filed a document claiming that Geohot has fled to South America (http://vghq.net/2011/03/23/george-hotz-runs-away-to-south-america-lies-about-having-psn-account/) in order to avoid handing over his equipment after a court order demanded them.

Though the evidence establishing personal jurisdiction is already overwhelming, SCEA has little doubt that there is much more. However, over the last several weeks. Hotz has engaged in a campaign to thwart jurisdictional discovery at every turn –regardless of whether the Court has ordered such discovery or not. Most seriously, after Magistrate Judge Spero ordered an inspection of Hotz’s devices and ordered Hotz to appear at a deposition in California, SCEA learned that Hotz had deliberately removed integral components of his impounded hard drives prior to delivering them to a third party neutral and that Hotz is now in South America, an excuse for why he will not immediately provide the components of his hard drives as requested by the neutral. Hotz’s attempts to dodge this Court’s authority raise very serious questions.

Mr. Hotz has apparently also lied about having a Playstation Network account; despite claiming otherwise, Sony claims to have found an account tied to one of his four PS3s under the username "blickmaniac".

You can find the article, with more from Sony's document, here (http://vghq.net/2011/03/23/george-hotz-runs-away-to-south-america-lies-about-having-psn-account/).

Source: VGHQ.net (http://vghq.net/)


UPDATE:

Did he flee, or is he on vacation? You be the judge!

Hotz is currently on vacation in a South American country. As common sense would dictate, there is no reason to "flee" from a civil case. These sites have based their claims on misinterpretations of the court documents and an image posted on Geohot's blog.


Thanks dimsumx (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1990818&postcount=11).

[lockwoodx]

My guess is Geohot wasn't just cracking Sony's software, but countries governments software.

[Agnostic Pope]

Can't trust them Sony people...

[bean19]

Some people know that "Geohot" is a guy who hacked the PS3 so that players can use homebrew and make "backups" (usually steal games they've rented) on the PS3, but this is necessary background for the story to make sense for everyone.

[OmegaVader]

And this, children, is why you don't take explicit credit for your hacking achievements. The courts will always work in favor of the corporations!

[Duskfire]

And this, children, is why you don't take explicit credit for your hacking achievements. The courts will always work in favor of the corporations!

As they should because hacking is illegal :P

[TzunSu]

My guess is Geohot wasn't just cracking Sony's software, but countries governments software.

Isnt that a bit of a stretch? And what kind of software are u talking about? If he was cracking government/military scale encryption, he wouldnt be doing it alone, and he wouldnt be doing it on any kind of hardware he could easily move offsite.

[TzunSu]

As they should because hacking is illegal :P

That depends entirely on what you are cracking. Alot of cracking is fully legal. Thank god the US courts are starting to come around to that.

[gzsfrk]

I don't believe he would flee the country based on what he was scared Sony would find on his hardware. If that were the case, he could easily do full zero-formats (multiple, if you're paranoid) on his drives and have nothing to fear. The most advanced ballistics in the world can't recover data from a drive that's been zero-formatted three times. Either that, or he could use a magnetic tape wiper on them if he was in a hurry and a pinch. No--I think there's other concerns at work here. And I haven't seen ANYTHING to suggest that GeoHot is on the fed's (or any other government's) radar for subversive hacking activities.

Again, people: keep the big picture in mind. You have a foreign corporation threatening to completely destroy a private U.S. citizen's future via financially devestating litigation costs (regardless of whether or not he's found guilty), all because he helped establish a way to let owners of said corporation's hardware circumvent the security of the device and let them use it as they see fit (whether legally or illegally). Something that SHOULD fall squarely within fair use, but is now a right which the ridiculous DMCA law has short-circuited.

Until we find out more details about GH's motivation for heading South, he has nothing but my sympathies and support, while Sony can permanently kiss my business goodbye.

[modeps]

9iUvuaChDEg

[dimsumx]

http://psx-scene.com/forums/f6/geohot-flees-south-america-83925/

In a lame attempt to direct traffic to their pathetic websites, some sources are now reporting that Geohot has "fled" the country after court documents reveal a PSN account alleged to belong to him. Normally, we would not report on something so completely ridiculous but, unfortunately, this nonsense is starting to spread to mainstream websites.

Hotz is currently on vacation in a South American country. As common sense would dictate, there is no reason to "flee" from a civil case. These sites have based their claims on misinterpretations of the court documents and an image posted on Geohot's blog.

In the future, we recommend only getting your news from reputable sites. When there's something real to report on the case, you''ll read it here, as always.

[VIVIsectVI]

It's good to see the money he asked for is going to a good cause. lol @ people that sent this doofus money.

[Agnostic Pope]

thank you dimsumx for posting that, shame on you fanboys.

[wastedyears]

Common sense dictates that there is no reason to flee a civil case?!? I can think of a reason. In fact, I can think of thousands, and possibly millions of reasons. Apparently time and money have no meaning to you. Apparently lawsuits and fines are irrelevant in your little world. And I suppose that commmon sense dictates that the legal ramifications of breaking international copyright laws just do not matter, either.

[LoTECH]

Apparently the trial of public opinion has already laid judgement

[Anenome]

Yeah, I'm sure he didn't flee the civil case. That would be pretty ridiculous.
9iUvuaChDEg

Oh, so he's a bit of a douche too :P

[Chimpbot]

I don't believe he would flee the country based on what he was scared Sony would find on his hardware. If that were the case, he could easily do full zero-formats (multiple, if you're paranoid) on his drives and have nothing to fear. The most advanced ballistics in the world can't recover data from a drive that's been zero-formatted three times. Either that, or he could use a magnetic tape wiper on them if he was in a hurry and a pinch. No--I think there's other concerns at work here. And I haven't seen ANYTHING to suggest that GeoHot is on the fed's (or any other government's) radar for subversive hacking activities.

I doubt he's hacking anything more important than consumer electronics, but I could certainly see reasons to get out of Dodge when the civil case you're involved in also carries some pretty hefty international copyright law baggage. If he loses this case, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if other legal actions were taken against him.

Until we find out more details about GH's motivation for heading South, he has nothing but my sympathies and support, while Sony can permanently kiss my business goodbye.

I'm still on the fence about whether or not I feel what he did was "wrong", but leaving the country during any court case simply doesn't look good and could very well influence future decisions made by the presiding legal bodies. Choosing to "take a vacation" right now was a stupid, stupid move on his part.

[AspectVoid]

Man, some days I think I'm the only one who has no problems with what Sony is doing. Despite what everyone here seems to think, companies do have the right to protect their products and inventions. It's why we have things like patent and copyright laws in the first place.

In all honesty, I think the best thing that could happen would be for this to get in the court system and for us to finally get a ruling on it one way or another. At least then we'd begin to have a guide line as to what counts as fair use and what counts as illegal.

To be honest, the way I see it, if it was, say, Microsoft who broke the PS3 and posted it on the internet for everyone to see, it would probably be considered an act of industrial sabotage (or at least enter the courts that way). Does the fact that it was done by a guy at home instead of a mutli-billion dollar corporation really make it okay? I can honestly say that I'm not sure.

[Anenome]

It's private property, man. Sony has no right over what I do to their console after I own it.

If they want to maintain property rights over a console they have to rent or lease it to me, not sell it.

I signed no agreement on purchase not to take the console apart and do w/e I want with it.

[Chimpbot]

Just to be sure, I'll dump this somewhere other than the front page.

[bean19]

I don't believe he would flee the country based on what he was scared Sony would find on his hardware. If that were the case, he could easily do full zero-formats (multiple, if you're paranoid) on his drives and have nothing to fear. The most advanced ballistics in the world can't recover data from a drive that's been zero-formatted three times. Either that, or he could use a magnetic tape wiper on them if he was in a hurry and a pinch. No--I think there's other concerns at work here. And I haven't seen ANYTHING to suggest that GeoHot is on the fed's (or any other government's) radar for subversive hacking activities.

Again, people: keep the big picture in mind. You have a foreign corporation threatening to completely destroy a private U.S. citizen's future via financially devestating litigation costs (regardless of whether or not he's found guilty), all because he helped establish a way to let owners of said corporation's hardware circumvent the security of the device and let them use it as they see fit (whether legally or illegally). Something that SHOULD fall squarely within fair use, but is now a right which the ridiculous DMCA law has short-circuited.

Until we find out more details about GH's motivation for heading South, he has nothing but my sympathies and support, while Sony can permanently kiss my business goodbye.
Good commentary and viewpoint. You should have written this story as I'm sure you wouldn't have neglected to add background like Chimpbot did. Someone not following this story would not know what the litigation between Sony and Geohot is about.

[AspectVoid]

It's private property, man. Sony has no right over what I do to their console after I own it.

If they want to maintain property rights over a console they have to rent or lease it to me, not sell it.

I signed no agreement on purchase not to take the console apart and do w/e I want with it.

True, and I agree with that. However, once you start posting the various methods you use on the Internet, it stops being private and becomes very public. If Geohot had kept it to himself, this never would have happened. The moment he made it public, though, there's a line in place, and he very well may have crossed it.

EDIT: To take it in a completely different direction, no one cares if you wander around your home naked all day. However, if you then decide to go grocery shopping naked, you're probably going to get fined/arrested for public indecency. What you can do at home and what you can do in public are two different things.

[Agnostic Pope]

EDolGOLPzdo

If Thin Lizzy approves of jailbreaking why can't Sony?

[gzsfrk]

Good commentary and viewpoint. You should have written this story as I'm sure you wouldn't have neglected to add background like Chimpbot did. Someone not following this story would not know what the litigation between Sony and Geohot is about.

I think it was a fair assumption that most everyone who reads EvAv on a regular basis are at least passingly familiar with the GH/Sony saga. And for those who weren't, a 5-second Google search would provide them all the information they need to get up to speed.

Doin' a fine job there, CB, a damn fine job. :)

[Raw]

True, and I agree with that. However, once you start posting the various methods you use on the Internet, it stops being private and becomes very public. If Geohot had kept it to himself, this never would have happened. The moment he made it public, though, there's a line in place, and he very well may have crossed it.

EDIT: To take it in a completely different direction, no one cares if you wander around your home naked all day. However, if you then decide to go grocery shopping naked, you're probably going to get fined/arrested for public indecency. What you can do at home and what you can do in public are two different things.

Nice argument. I agree with it. Steam, in the recent years, somehow changed my stance against piracy. I know cracking the PS3 doesn't directly imply piracy, but it's obvious that's one of the routes the community will take. Either way, no cracking, but no locking Other OS. Bad Geohot, bad Sony.

[Anenome]

True, and I agree with that. However, once you start posting the various methods you use on the Internet, it stops being private and becomes very public.
You're confusing the issue utterly.

Geohot telling others the information he owned and generated is an issue of free speech, not private property. Him communicating information he generated, information he owned, is up to him.

If Sony owned the information he gave away for free, THEN I would agree that Geohot should be in trouble. But the fact is, Sony kept its codes secret, trade secret, and thus did not pursue copyright or patent protection on these secret codes. Their secrecy was their protection.

Geohot discovered the codes that had no legal protection on them and spread them via free speech. Sony has no case.


If Geohot had kept it to himself, this never would have happened. The moment he made it public, though, there's a line in place, and he very well may have crossed it.
Again, I think you're confusing the issue here. He did not violate any of Sony's rights by talking about this. Nor would creating a blueprint for a gun and then disseminating that on the web make you guilty of murder when someone uses your plans to create an actual gun. It's up to the individual who receives the message. Sony isn't going after the individuals because Sony cannot go after them. Sony is only using the legal system as a hammer, whether they win or not, and they likely won't, and that sort of legal bullying should be opposed by everyone.


EDIT: To take it in a completely different direction, no one cares if you wander around your home naked all day. However, if you then decide to go grocery shopping naked, you're probably going to get fined/arrested for public indecency. What you can do at home and what you can do in public are two different things.
Nakedness is a topic in its own right, and not particularly applicable to this issue as an analogy. It's a reach. Come back with a better analogy, or we can discuss the actual issue as it exists.

[Anenome]

@Bean - Personally I hate how news reports give me two paragraphs of news and 10 paragraphs of background, article after article.

If you want to provide background in an article so even those new to the news can have context, perhaps it should be segregated as such.

[bean19]

@Bean - Personally I hate how news reports give me two paragraphs of news and 10 paragraphs of background, article after article.
He could have done it with one sentence in his nut graph or with good exposition in his lead.

[AspectVoid]

You're confusing the issue utterly.

Geohot telling others the information he owned and generated is an issue of free speech, not private property. Him communicating information he generated, information he owned, is up to him.

If Sony owned the information he gave away for free, THEN I would agree that Geohot should be in trouble. But the fact is, Sony kept its codes secret, trade secret, and thus did not pursue copyright or patent protection on these secret codes. Their secrecy was their protection.

Geohot discovered the codes that had no legal protection on them and spread them via free speech. Sony has no case.


Again, I think you're confusing the issue here. He did not violate any of Sony's rights by talking about this. Nor would creating a blueprint for a gun and then disseminating that on the web make you guilty of murder when someone uses your plans to create an actual gun. It's up to the individual who receives the message. Sony isn't going after the individuals because Sony cannot go after them. Sony is only using the legal system as a hammer, whether they win or not, and they likely won't, and that sort of legal bullying should be opposed by everyone.


Nakedness is a topic in its own right, and not particularly applicable to this issue as an analogy. It's a reach. Come back with a better analogy, or we can discuss the actual issue as it exists.

I hate trying to break up quotes like you did, mostly because I always screw it up, so I'm just going to address your points.

1) Free speech isn't free. There are plenty of things that you can't go around talking about without getting in trouble for it (how to blow up a building, nuclear weapon launch codes, the secret formula to New Coke, etc). Claiming it's free speech is all well and good, but there is case law out there that says if you say stuff that is used to incite harm on another, you will get shot down. You can go around saying "It would be cool to break into a bank." If, however, you get the bank's security codes, and then post them on the internet saying "Hey, if you want to break into this bank you can just use these codes, just remember you shouldn't take anything!" you can't really expect to get away scott free when people use those codes to break in.

2) There's a possibility that geohot did violate Sony's rights. Sony DOES in fact have protection from people attempting to steal their property from them. The lawyers for Sony will argue that by posting the PS3's security codes, geohot is an accessory for every piece of stolen software that is run on the PS3. Sony makes money off of each title sold for their system, thus every pirated piece of software constitutes stealing from Sony.

3) The naked analogy was just to point out the differences between what you're allowed to do in the privacy of your home is different from what you're allowed to do in public. There was really nothing more to it then that.

4) I am not a lawyer. I am also not a Judge. If you are a lawyer or a judge, then I will gladly admit you know more about this then I do. I'll also have to admit that you are more evil then me, because, you know, lawyer. If you are not, though, then we are both pretty much in the same place, and there will be no way to know what the law actually is until, you know, someone actually rules on it. I can honestly say I'm not sure if anything like this has ever gone to trial in the US before.

[Anenome]

No, not a lawyer here. But I do study issues of fundamental rights, and I tell you that even the limited restrictions on freedom of speech that we do have are immoral. You cannot curb some free speech without inevitably abusing the right to determine what is and isn't allowed, and that means government limited speech, not free.

There's ways to handle usage problems that don't involve the law. Take the example of yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater. That should not be illegal. Even there, free speech should reign legally. How that should be dealt with is that the private owner of the theater should have a rule, should contract with his patrons as a condition of entry that they will not yell 'fire' on pain of being escorted from the premises. You simply do not need a law to prevent that, and using the law to do it opens the way towards further legal abuses.

Your accessory argument doesn't work for the simple reason that the manufacturers of burglary tools, otherwise known as screw drivers and hammers and torches, do not get charged with accessory when a bank gets robbed. This analogy works because the codes he found can't be used only to pirate, they can also be used for a moral use--re-enabling homebrew and alternate OS. Only things that can only and primarily be used for an immoral purpose should face legal sanction, and that's an extremely short list.