Could Ports Between 360 and PS3 Be Much Harder Than Imagined?

[Kefkataran]

In an interview (http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/mattlee.ars) conducted on Ars Technica (reported on by Next Generation (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3229&Itemid=2)) Microsoft Game Technology Group engineer Matt Lee has sugggested that the increase in multi-platform titles that is expected to take hold between the 360 and PS3 this generation may not be so simple.

From the interview:

I think porting from Xbox 360 to PS3 will be reasonably difficult, since the Xbox 360 has a lot more general purpose processing power that can be flexibly reallocated, and all of the Xbox 360 CPU cores have equal access to all memory. The asymmetric nature of the Cell could easily lead to situations where the game has too little of one type of processing power and too much of another. And the content might suffer as well, since you'll never see a PS3 title with more than 256MB of textures at any given time, due to the split graphics and system memory banks. When we announced 512MB of unified memory on Xbox 360, I think all of our game developers (and the artists too) did a little happy dance. It's easier to use and gives developers much more flexibility in how they allocate memory for various resources.

In terms of performance, I think that the PS3 and the Xbox 360 will essentially be a wash. We ran the numbers a while back and the two systems come up surprisingly close in theoretical peak performance, despite the one year difference in release dates.

This could mess developers up even more, what with the necessity for cross-platform titles due to increasing development costs. Just trash talk from a Microsoft employee trying to make his side look better, or could there be some truth to this?

[direwolf]

Can't put too much stock into this unless it can be verified by somebody without anything to gain/lose.

If this were from a big cross-platform developer I'd pay more attention to it.

[Varsity]

PS3 is hard to program for, is this really news?

[NoName]

If this came from a well known developer I'd give it more credit. As it is, this sounds like all talk.

Edit: Durr, Direwolf apparently posts faster than me. So yea, what Direwolf said.

[VolantDave]

YAY! it's the same situation as last gen. Games optimized for the platform will have a visual edge and multi console middleware ports will all look/play/feel the same.

[antoniogaud]

Well, has anyone - and by that I mean devs - said otherwise? Carmack, considered by many to be the best programmer in the business, said virtually the exact same thing in several interviews (here is one (http://www.totalvideogames.com/news/Carmack_%E2%80%93_Xbox360_)). As far as I am concerned, this is fact.

[Guy Mariano]

and how is this different from PS2/Xbox multiplatform games?

[Citizen Philip]

Trashtalk. If you have two things one is going to be better, so mentioning again and again how better it is is kind of irrelevent. After a season or two of PS2, I never heard a peep about the difficulties it originally had. It's called a learning curve, like it or lump it.

[criscokid89]

And the content might suffer as well, since you'll never see a PS3 title with more than 256MB of textures at any given time, due to the split graphics and system memory banks. When we announced 512MB of unified memory on Xbox 360, I think all of our game developers (and the artists too) did a little happy dance.

According to this (http://ps3.ign.com/articles/636/636848p2.html) :

How much RAM will the PS3 have?
256MB of XDR Main RAM @ 3.2GHz and 256MB of GDDR3 VRAM @ 700MHz, or a total of 512MB for the entire system. The RSX graphics chip can actually use all 512MB of system RAM; it is not limited to the 256MB of GDDR3 RAM.

And from leaked slides I saw I remember reading that Sony recommends splitting your textures across both types of memory because you can get twice the data transfer rate.

[Borys]

Never, ever believe a guy from corporation A lowballing competitive product from corporation B.

Never, ever believe nVidia trashtalking ATI's cards.

Never, ever believe ATI's benchmarks showing their cards beating nVidia's.

Never, ever believe some MS goon talking down on Playstation 3.

Never, ever believe Kutaragi's power point presentation bulleting Xbox 360's weaknesses.

Wait till Playstation 3 launches and judge by yourself who was right.

[Kamalot]

I'm not impressed with the PS3 at all, but I can't put any stock in this article. This is as pointless and dumb as Sony calling the Xbox 360 an Xbox 1.5.

Move Along.

[darkwarrior]

I'm pretty sure its been stated already that it is easier to make games for than the PS2 and the PS2 had a huge game library.

[Borys]

I'm not impressed with the PS3 at all...

Me neither - it didn't launch yet.

[Mike Jones]

I'm not impressed with the PS3 at all, but I can't put any stock in this article. This is as pointless and dumb as Sony calling the Xbox 360 an Xbox 1.5.

Move Along.

Really, I've been floored by the flagship title Untold Legends.

[Rakael]

Is anyone else getting tired of all this Red vs. Blue bullshit? I can't wait for the next 2-3 years to pass so everyone will just settle the fuck down and stop making wild accusations about one console or another. Honestly, all of this next-gen crap has pushed me away from gaming. I am so sick of all this bullshit corporate manuevering that I am beginning to question whether or not I should give any of them my hard earned cash. Maybe Nintendo, but then again I may be pissed off when the Wii-2 is released six months later with some "new" shit added that should have been on the console in the first place.

I think the gaming industry needs another good early 80's style crash and reset. Or maybe I'm just getting old.

[bapenguin]

Really, I've been floored by the flagship title Untold Legends.

I wish Sony was launching with a game called Flagship. That would be ironic. :)

[SuperMonkeyFighter2]

Two Words: Blast Processing

[Paranoia]

Two Words: Blast Processing

I'll beat yours with my REAL TIME WEAPON CHANGE FOR MASSIVE DAMAGE!!

[Kamalot]

Me neither - it didn't launch yet.Well, if they want people to purchase it, they should start impressing people. Untold Legends ain't gonna cut it. In fact, that game will drive people AWAY from the PS3. They should put Untold Legends under wraps and sell it wrapped in brown paper on the shelf. Just put "PS3 game-$60" on the cover and let people buy it. They'll sell more to the launch crowd that way than they will by showing crappy screens/movies of it.

[Darkstar]

YAY! it's the same situation as last gen. Games optimized for the platform will have a visual edge and multi console middleware ports will all look/play/feel the same.
Bingo! I can't point to any articles or anything because no one has published it outright -- but developers (especially ones that are working for/owned by 3rd party publishers) are definitely having a hard time with next gen multi-platform coding. It should get better in a couple years after some good solutions come about, but until then cross-platform titles will not live up to their potential on either platform. Developers just don't have the time/money/resources to devote the necessary attention to each individual console at this point.

[torrefaction]

You know, I don't feel like he's bashing the PS3, and I don't know why everyone's taking it this way. As a matter of fact, he said performance would be a wash. What he did say is that ports will be exceedingly difficult.

Honestly, I think (I'm not 100% sure on this) that I'm glad. Make it harder for the bastards to port...they'll either make the game unique and something special for the platform, or we won't have a flood of ports. Finally start seeing exclusives that mean something.

[Kefkataran]

You know, I don't feel like he's bashing the PS3, and I don't know why everyone's taking it this way. As a matter of fact, he said performance would be a wash. What he did say is that ports will be exceedingly difficult.

Yeah, at the very least his admittance about the power makes this a little different from the normal company bashing stuff.

[Hellstorm]

Believe in Nintendo. :D


Never, ever believe a guy from corporation A lowballing competitive product from corporation B.

Never, ever believe nVidia trashtalking ATI's cards.

Never, ever believe ATI's benchmarks showing their cards beating nVidia's.

Never, ever believe some MS goon talking down on Playstation 3.

Never, ever believe Kutaragi's power point presentation bulleting Xbox 360's weaknesses.

Wait till Playstation 3 launches and judge by yourself who was right.

[[HATE]MyLife]

Honestly, I think (I'm not 100% sure on this) that I'm glad. Make it harder for the bastards to port...they'll either make the game unique and something special for the platform, or we won't have a flood of ports. Finally start seeing exclusives that mean something.
It's really a double-edged sword though. A developer needs to sell titles in order to make good games. Your funding is based on previous sales, and unless one of the console manufacturers is offering you piles of money to make an exclusive title, you're effectively limiting your potential sales by creating a game for only one platform.

Developers are making cross-platform games for the PS3 because the PS2 owned the last generation, and they're afraid that everyone will go out and buy a PS3 based solely on the PlayStation name. Oh, and of course, to play "Incomprehensible J-RPG #467" and "Inane Metal Gear Storyline 4".

See, I'm torn, since on one hand competition in the console manufacturing department is good for the consumer, but overly divergent consoles that divide the gamer market are bad for developers. Catch-22.

[Zanzibar]

Y'know what, this guy is a programming stud. Wow. Yeah, he's a company man, but it's pretty obvious he's no marketing tool.

[torrefaction]

MyLife']It's really a double-edged sword though. A developer needs to sell titles in order to make good games.

It does hurt gamers a little too, to some extent (I'm already crying inside, because odds are I won't be buying a PS3 for a very long while. There are games I want :) ). Plus, it could lead to a more driving defeat of a console in the marketplace, if the developer's focus on a particular console for sales. I don't entirely retract my previous statement, as it would be nice to see less exclusives, but you have perfectly valid points.

It's just that your points suck! ;)

[torrefaction]

Holy crap. This guy wrote Dope Wars. Bastard stole too much of my time.

That game was fun.

[Johan]

Honestly, I think (I'm not 100% sure on this) that I'm glad. Make it harder for the bastards to port...they'll either make the game unique and something special for the platform, or we won't have a flood of ports. Finally start seeing exclusives that mean something.

Terrific point...I agree!!!

Ports often end up at the lowest common denominator, as well; yeah, Xbox multiplatform titles tended to look a bit better than PS2 multiplatform titles, but the difference was pretty negligible. This generation, it will be even less of a difference, IMO

[51|RandoM]

In other news, porting a game from PS3 to xbox360 may not be as easy as you think.

Somebody tell microsoft and sony that we don't want ports. MS already spent one generation learning that, it would seem.

[Kefkataran]

Somebody tell microsoft and sony that we don't want ports.

Yeah, it's obviously exclusives that are going to sell the system. Although, ports, when done well, are nice also if you aren't throwing down the cash for both immediately.

[inmostlight]

Yeah, it's obviously exclusives that are going to sell the system. Although, ports, when done well, are nice also if you aren't throwing down the cash for both immediately.

I think what will be interesting will be what system has the advantages for ports this time around. Last generation, I'd tend to go with xbox just because it would usually have better graphics and surround sound. I don't know enough about the PS3 (and won't until launch) to know about that angle....but right now I'm predicting that as dumb as they originally sounded, Gamerpoints will give Microsoft the edge. If I want a title and all other things being equal, I'll get the one with the achievements.

Has Sony announced if they're going to have something similar on the PS3?

[Mr.Condescension]

Honestly, I think (I'm not 100% sure on this) that I'm glad. Make it harder for the bastards to port...they'll either make the game unique and something special for the platform, or we won't have a flood of ports. Finally start seeing exclusives that mean something.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. As someone who will in all likelihood own all 3 consoles eventually, I'd prefer there be no ports. I know its selfish, but if I have all the systems, as I did for last gen (current gen?), I'd prefer each game to be optimized for the hardware, rather than play to the lowest common denominator.

[Mr.Condescension]

MyLife']It's really a double-edged sword though. A developer needs to sell titles in order to make good games. Your funding is based on previous sales, and unless one of the console manufacturers is offering you piles of money to make an exclusive title, you're effectively limiting your potential sales by creating a game for only one platform.

I don't know how true this is. It might be true, it might not be true. If it were true, then why would Soul Calibur 3 be on the PS2 only when SC2 was on all 3 machines? I'm guessing they looked at their sales on the xbox and gc and decided that alot of those purchases were from people with ps2s in addition to GCs or Xboxes, and they would sell almost as many copies on the PS2 if it were exclusive. I'm guessing the production costs of the multiple machine port is not worth it in that case.

The case for multi-platform would be ubisoft or EA. They must do it for some reason. I'm betting that you get the most money for a title with a timed exclusive release, like Resident Evil 4.

[torrefaction]

The case for multi-platform would be ubisoft or EA. They must do it for some reason. I'm betting that you get the most money for a title with a timed exclusive release, like Resident Evil 4.

I agree completely. As a matter of fact, I recently said I think Ubi is doing this with Assassin's Creed for this very reason.

[Kamalot]

I don't know how true this is. It might be true, it might not be true. If it were true, then why would Soul Calibur 3 be on the PS2 only when SC2 was on all 3 machines? I'm guessing they looked at their sales on the xbox and gc and decided that alot of those purchases were from people with ps2s in addition to GCs or Xboxes, and they would sell almost as many copies on the PS2 if it were exclusive. I'm guessing the production costs of the multiple machine port is not worth it in that case.
The GameCube version of Soul Calibur II sold more than the PS2 and Xbox versions combined. The ONLY way that Namco would have decided to make Soul Calibur exclusive is Sony offered them giant piles of money to swim in.

Things are going to be very different this generation when Sony does not have 70% of the marketshare.

[[HATE]MyLife]

Things are going to be very different this generation when Sony does not have 70% of the marketshare.

Quoted for truth.

[Mr.Condescension]

The GameCube version of Soul Calibur II sold more than the PS2 and Xbox versions combined. The ONLY way that Namco would have decided to make Soul Calibur exclusive is Sony offered them giant piles of money to swim in.

Things are going to be very different this generation when Sony does not have 70% of the marketshare.

Soul Calibur 2 Sales:

PS2: 1.73 million
GC: 1.48 million
Xbox: <1 million

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_selling_video_games

You didn't even bother looking it up, did you? :p

Anyway, it wasn't the best example, since SC3 bombed overall. At any rate, there must have been a reason they didn't release it to the other 2 systems. I'm sure their marketing and sales teams poured over data and came up with the conclusion that a single-platform release was the most sound business decision. I wish I had all the data they do, honestly.

edit: does anyone know of any examples of franchises switching from single to multi-platform or vise versa? (not timed exclusives)

[[HATE]MyLife]

You didn't even bother looking it up, did you? :p

Pot, meet Kettle?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_Calibur_2

The GameCube version of Soul Calibur II was more popular than its PlayStation 2 and Xbox counterparts (copies sold through December 2003: 500,685 vs. 447,138 and 320,991 respectively); many attribute this to Link’s inclusion as a GameCube-exclusive character.

Maybe NPD would be a better resource than Wikipedia for this?

[Kamalot]

MyLife']Pot, meet Kettle?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_Calibur_2

The GameCube version of Soul Calibur II was more popular than its PlayStation 2 and Xbox counterparts (copies sold through December 2003: 500,685 vs. 447,138 and 320,991 respectively); many attribute this to Link’s inclusion as a GameCube-exclusive character.

Maybe NPD would be a better resource than Wikipedia for this?
Ookay. I was mistaken. It didn't sell more than the other two platforms combined. It did sell more than the other two platforms.

My bad. I admit it.

[Mr.Condescension]

Ookay. I was mistaken. It didn't sell more than the other two platforms combined. It did sell more than the other two platforms.

My bad. I admit it.

No, it sold more than the Xbox and less than the PS2.

[Mr.Condescension]

MyLife']Pot, meet Kettle?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_Calibur_2

The GameCube version of Soul Calibur II was more popular than its PlayStation 2 and Xbox counterparts (copies sold through December 2003: 500,685 vs. 447,138 and 320,991 respectively); many attribute this to Link’s inclusion as a GameCube-exclusive character.

Maybe NPD would be a better resource than Wikipedia for this?

Please talk to me when you have a clue. Your numbers are incredibly old. Over 2.5 years old, in fact. I already quoted the numbers and provided a link. Please comment when you actually have something to add to the conversation.

another much more up to date link:
http://www.everythingandnothing.org.uk/vg/worldtotals.php

[Kamalot]

Please talk to me when you have a clue. Your numbers are incredibly old. Over 2.5 years old, in fact. I already quoted the numbers and provided a link. Please comment when you actually have something to add to the conversation.You, sir, are an asshole. I could care less if you are right about numbers, but there was no reason to talk to him the way you did.

Respect for you is gone.

Bye.

[Mr.Condescension]

Bye.

Oh thank god. I was hoping you'd finally say that. [HATE]'s comment was obviously meant as an attack on my credibility, and a poor one at that.

edit: it's not like you have respect for anyone on these forums anyway, Kamalot.

[[HATE]MyLife]

Please talk to me when you have a clue. Your numbers are incredibly old. Over 2.5 years old, in fact. I already quoted the numbers and provided a link. Please comment when you actually have something to add to the conversation.


Point I was making was that numbers from a wiki aren't necessarily the most accurate around. Perhaps you noticed that my numbers came from Wikipedia as well? Maybe if you had bothered to read the post, you would've found that I was merely suggesting that a more reliable source be researched before tossing numbers out there. Jackass.

[Kamalot]

Oh thank god. I was hoping you'd finally say that. [HATE]'s comment was obviously meant as an attack on my credibility, and a poor one at that.

edit: it's not like you have respect for anyone on these forums anyway, Kamalot.Oh you are quite wrong.

[Mr.Condescension]

MyLife']Point I was making was that numbers from a wiki aren't necessarily the most accurate around. Perhaps you noticed that my numbers came from Wikipedia as well? Maybe if you had bothered to read the post, you would've found that I was merely suggesting that a more reliable source be researched before tossing numbers out there. Jackass.

The numbers I posted are updated monthly, unlike the numbers you pulled from the way back machine. If your point was that wiki isn't necessarily accurate, you should have said so and not pulled your "pot, meet kettle" bullshit. You clearly were trying to antagonize me, and you got exactly what you wanted.

[Mr.Condescension]

Oh you are quite wrong.

Oh, I forgot about your buddy Reanimated. I'm sure you respect him, since he parrots your every word.

[[HATE]MyLife]

The numbers I posted are updated monthly, unlike the numbers you pulled from the way back machine. If your point was that wiki isn't necessarily accurate, you should have said so and not pulled your "pot, meet kettle" bullshit. You clearly were trying to antagonize me, and you got exactly what you wanted.

What a surprise. Antagonism begets antagonism. My point was brought to bear with the line "Maybe NPD would be a better resource than Wikipedia for this?"

[Kamalot]

100,000,000 PS2s Sold
1,730,000 Soul Calibur II PS2 sold

1.73% of all PS2 users purchased Soul Calibur II.

20,000,000 GameCubes Sold
1,480,000 Soul Calibur GameCube sold

7.4% of all GameCube users purchased Soul Calibur II.

[Kamalot]

Oh, I forgot about your buddy Reanimated. I'm sure you respect him, since he parrots your every word.It must be very lonely in a world where you can only respect people who believe the same thing as yourself.

[Mr.Condescension]

MyLife']What a surprise. Antagonism begets antagonism. My point was brought to bear with the line "Maybe NPD would be a better resource than Wikipedia for this?"

Maybe that would be true if the NPD group had those numbers available to us. Do they? I welcome more information, assuming you'd like to talk about this without the antagonism.

[[HATE]MyLife]

This all misses the point though. SC2 was over a million seller on BOTH platforms, which is a very good showing no matter how you slice it. The only reason a Publisher would choose to make the sequel an exclusive would be if there were piles of cash involved. That's just how it works.

[Mr.Condescension]

Damnit, I thought you weren't going to talk to me anymore.

It must be very lonely in a world where you can only respect people who believe the same thing as yourself.

It's like you're reading my mind! :eek: Spooky.

100,000,000 PS2s Sold
1,730,000 Soul Calibur II PS2 sold

1.73% of all PS2 users purchased Soul Calibur II.

20,000,000 GameCubes Sold
1,480,000 Soul Calibur GameCube sold

7.4% of all GameCube users purchased Soul Calibur II.

Oh, are we now switching gears to attach rate? Is that our new barometer for success? I wasn't aware that companies made more money on their games based on the % of people with the system that buy them. Now it all makes sense!

Do you think we can maybe get back to the point of the discussion now that we've established that the PS2 version made Namco more money than the GC version? I don't know why you even started this tangent, since it doesn't help defeat my argument.

[Kamalot]

MyLife']This all misses the point though. SC2 was over a million seller on BOTH platforms, which is a very good showing no matter how you slice it. The only reason a Publisher would choose to make the sequel an exclusive would be if there were piles of cash involved. That's just how it works.
You know, I think someone recetnly said this somewhere else in this thread. ;) There is only a 250k difference between the GameCube and PS2 versions. Considering the fighting engine was complete and multiplatform it was senseless and stupid for Soul Calibur 2 to be exclusive to PS2.

[Mr.Condescension]

MyLife']This all misses the point though. SC2 was over a million seller on BOTH platforms, which is a very good showing no matter how you slice it. The only reason a Publisher would choose to make the sequel an exclusive would be if there were piles of cash involved. That's just how it works.

I both agree and disagree. Yes, it sold well on both systems, which is why I already stated that it wasn't as good an example as I had thought, and asked if anyone knew of other examples to prove or disprove the concept. I have to disagree with your 2nd statement, or at least give it a "is that really known?" I highly doubt Sony throws money at every developer that makes an exclusive title. By moving to a 2nd and 3rd platform you dilute the sales on the first system. A developer has to weigh the costs of porting vs. the sales not on that system alone but against the sales on that system minus the sales lost on the original system. I do not think it is a given that all titles will profit more from being simultaneous releases on multiple systems.