Havok FX/ATI Interview

[JCalCGM]

FiringSquad chats with Havok's Jeff Yates about the recent announcement that their Havok FX game physics software will support ATI's new game hardware physics set up. You can read the interview right here (http://www.firingsquad.com/news/newsarticle.asp?searchid=10649). Here is a snip:
FiringSquad: One of Havok's competitors' , AGEIA, has said of the ATI-Havok FX hardware set up, "Graphics processors are designed for graphics. Physics is an entirely different environment. Why would you sacrifice graphics performance for questionable physics? You’ll be hard pressed to find game developers who don’t want to use all the graphics power they can get, thus leaving very little for anything else in that chip. " What is Havok's response to this?

Jeff Yates: Well, I’m sure the AGEIA folks have heard about General Purpose GPU or “GP-GPU” initiatives that have been around for years. The evolution of the GPU and the programmable shader technology that drives it have been leading to this moment for quite some time. From our perspective, the time has arrived, and things are never going to go backwards. So, if people are going to purchase extra hardware to do physics, why not purchase an extra GPU, or better yet relegate last year’s GPU to physics, and get a brand new GPU for rendering? The fact is that this is not stealing from the graphics – rather it gives the option of providing more horsepower to the graphics, or the physics, or both – depending on what a particular game needs. I fail to see how that’s a bad thing. Not to mention that downward pricing for “last year’s” GPUs are already feeding the market with physics-capable GPUs at the sub $200 price point –even reaching the magic $100 price point.

[Skjef]

The moral of the story is: Don't buy a new motherboard without SLI/Crossfire support. It'll come back to kick you in the arse.

Interesting tidbit about Wii support down at the bottom of the article. This would seem to disprove the rumours of an integrated PPU, as Havok seems very GPU-oriented at this point.

[Mr.Condescension]

FiringSquad chats with Havok's Jeff Yates about the recent announcement that their Havok FX game physics software will support ATI's new game hardware physics set up. You can read the interview right here (http://www.firingsquad.com/news/newsarticle.asp?searchid=10649). Here is a snip:

Havok's argument seems a bit retarded to me. Like motherboards generally come with 2 AGP or PCI Express slots. If I buy a new card where in the hell do I put my old one to use as a physics processor?

[Mozgus]

Eh whatever. If there is one thing the history of computers will teach you, it's that hardware which exists for only one obscure purpose, will never stick around for long. This physics hardware will eventually get replaced by the next generation of CPUs. They'll handle this shit without breaking a sweat, and then we'll have yet another PCI slot freed up, assuming PCI slots are still in use at that time.

I am just tired in general of all the experimenting the manufacturers are doing as of late. Like this dual-core processer crap. This SLI video card crap. Simplicity will always win over power. The dual-cores only offer a tiny performance boost, and for the price of one, you can get a singular CPU now that beats it's benchmarks. It might not handle things perfectly if you multi-task 20 things at once, but what casual consumer does that?!

And these SLI cards are not going to be around for long. Honestly who the hell wants two video cards in their system? You can get a singular card with nearly equal the performance for the price of two of those other cards, and on top of that, you will use LESS power, and create LESS heat. Anyone remember when 3DFX tried this dual card shit? Consumers were smarter back then I guess, because they didn't even delay in shunning it. Nowadays, if a technology is advertised enough, we just bend over to get a sample.

[Skjef]

Holy crap. RTFA.

Mr.Condescension: SLI/Crossfire motherboards. They won't be using this tech with AGP cards.

Mozgus: They're talking about using old video cards, possibly costing as little as $100 for decent performance. Non-specialized hardware, in a PCIe slot, using a software solution. As for SLI, it has it's uses, especially at extremely high resolutions, which just aren't feasible from a single video card setup. Case in point (http://accessories.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=ca&l=en&cs=CADHS1&sku=222-0863).

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

Well its too bad Havok fucking sucks balls when it comes to physics. Anyone bitching about the uselessness of dual gpus is either broke or retarded. For most people yeah its useless but like Skjef said its useful for a high res display, or just for getting the best performance. Honsetly I could care less about advances in physics right now. Lets get the freaking animation/collison detection/ai right first. Bad animation/collison take me right out of a game, so does seeing an enemy spaz out or hit me when its obviously impossible. Ill take a hit to the graphics if it means I can get those things properly done. Another thing... invisible walls need to die! Id rather see a pile of rocks or fallen trees or just a steep hill, anything other than a damn invisble wall.

[Mr.Condescension]

Holy crap. RTFA.

Mr.Condescension: SLI/Crossfire motherboards. They won't be using this tech with AGP cards.


WTF. Are you kidding me with this crap? Fine, they won't be using it with AGP...great. Are you trying to tell me anyone who buys an SLI/Crossfire motherboard isn't planning on using it with multiple new GPUs? They're going to spend all that money and just throw on an old PPU for fun? You're out of your gourd.

[Qoz]

Anyone remember when 3DFX tried this dual card shit? Consumers were smarter back then I guess, because they didn't even delay in shunning it.
They made it more expensive, hotter and poorer. Ofcourse people didn't buy it.
And you cannot judge the current SLI performance and dual-core properly, because games do not use this extra horsepower fully. They have a good chance of pushing it onto the market, because in te beginning (now) hardcore gamers love SLI and more casual gamers watch the great benchmarks. In time (we are already seeing it) the 2 GPU cores will merge onto one chip and become cheaper. When this happens, we will see if the price and performance can make people buy it.

I must admit, that it is pretty smart, if they can make future budget PCI-E cards function as Physics accelerator. The point in using older gfx cards dedicated like this is actually quite good (if the performance is there). I know only the AGEIA (and CPU) can do realtime physics (collision,gameplay critical), but can a dedicated GPU do this too? If so physics acceleration (older gfx card) in computers could suddenly be widespread within 1-2 years, when people upgrade.

[Qoz]

Another thing... invisible walls need to die! Id rather see a pile of rocks or fallen trees or just a steep hill, anything other than a damn invisble wall.This feature demands too much CPU! You cannot be serious?!
This tech is next-next-next-gen.

[Skjef]

WTF. Are you kidding me with this crap? Fine, they won't be using it with AGP...great. Are you trying to tell me anyone who buys an SLI/Crossfire motherboard isn't planning on using it with multiple new GPUs? They're going to spend all that money and just throw on an old PPU for fun? You're out of your gourd.I think you're a bit behind the times, neighbour. Newegg prices for SLI boards. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?Order=PRICE&Page=1&N=2000200000&Submit=ENE&Description=sli&Ntk=all) 16 of them under $100 with SLI support.

My gourd is firmly in place.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

Anyone gaming on a pc nowadays running on AGP needs to upgrade or not even bother posting in this thread. AGP is basically dead...

Mr.Condescension... reading comprehension, seriously.

They're going to spend all that money and just throw on an old PPU for fun?

"PPU", is that a typo or are you just in the wrong thread. Anything old being mentioned in this artivle would be a GPU. I see no problem with having a new mobo with SLI, one slot has a good video card, the other has an older one, dedicated to physics. If that does not logically make sense, may Darwin have mercy on your soul.

[Mr.Condescension]

I meant GPU. It's 2 AM, my apologies.

edit: wait, no I didn't, I meant ppu - as in Physics Processing Unit (for Havoc it means an old GPU). Stop being a tool.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

Hey its 4:48am here.

This post was 1337. Dont look it in the eyes.

Stop being a tool? Try not being a fucking moron. Calling a GPU being used mainly for physics processing is pretty stupid. Its a GPU, plain and simple.

[Mr.Condescension]

I reiterate my statement, people do not buy SLI motherboards with the intention of running a GPU and a PPU. They run them expecting to run 2 (or more) GPUs at the same time.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

But it is a possibility. Why is that so damn hard to understand? Do you own an SLI mobo? No? I do, do I think the idea is useless? Hell no. Would I prefer dual GPUs for higher performance though, of course. But I wouldnt just dismiss using one slot and an old video card for a boost in physics. You fail sorry.

By the way, "two or more"... wtf are you smoking. I have an SLI mobo like I said earlier but I run seventeen GPUs with it.

[Skjef]

I reiterate my statement, people do not buy SLI motherboards with the intention of running a GPU and a PPU. They run them expecting to run 2 (or more) GPUs at the same time.Let it go, you're tired. You had a point when you thought that SLI boards were more expensive, but now you're just being irrational. Of course they don't buy them with that intention right now, because nobody's heard of this technology yet. But SLI boards are cheap, so it can catch on really fast.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

Intention is far different from having multiple ways to utilize the technology one has.

You had a point when you thought that SLI boards were more expensive, but now you're just being irrational.

He never had a point and was being irrational when calling SLI mobos expensive.

[Mozgus]

Lol, you people are arguing over something that won't even exist in a few years, nor will it change the field at all.

[Skjef]

Lol, you people are arguing over something that won't even exist in a few years, nor will it change the field at all.Dude, why is your crystal ball covered in shit? Oh, right, because you pulled it out of your ass.

[Mr.Condescension]

Let it go, you're tired. You had a point when you thought that SLI boards were more expensive, but now you're just being irrational. Of course they don't buy them with that intention right now, because nobody's heard of this technology yet. But SLI boards are cheap, so it can catch on really fast.

It's not going to catch on. That's the problem. Anyone who thinks it is isn't thinking straight. People who buy SLI boards are severe PC gaming enthusiasts who spend alot of money on their rigs every year. A PC graphics enthusiast is not going to waste their GPU slots on an old graphics card because they're the type of person who demands performance. The avergage gamer doesn't buy an SLI board at all, so those that do actually buy them for their intended purpose, running GPUs in tandem. What you're assuming doesn't make much sense.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

Dude, why is your crystal ball covered in shit? Oh, right, because you pulled it out of your ass.

Holy shit. Someone just got friggin OWNED.

[Mr.Condescension]

He never had a point and was being irrational when calling SLI mobos expensive.

I never once stated that SLI mobos were expensive. That's Skjef's way of avoiding my point, which I've outlined. People who buy SLI motherboards generally buy them for their intended purpose, running multiple GPUs at the same time in tandem. There is no meaningful market segment that wants to run a GPU and a PPU (physics processing unit for the mentally challenged).

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

~Gah

Any enthusiast will buy the hardware or do whats needed for the most performance of the latest technology. This comes down to preference though. Do I want better graphics or good graphics with better physics? It seems like the devs are loving physics right now so odds are this will stick around in some way. Are you even a gamer?

Like I said earlier. Why be forced to run two GPUs? Just because you have a piece of paper doesnt mean you have to write on it. Make a fucking airplane.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

There is no meaningful market segment that wants to run a GPU and a PPU (physics processing unit for the mentally challenged).

The "enthusiasts" you seem to know so much about are this supposedly non-existent market segment...

[Skjef]

I never once stated that SLI mobos were expensive. That's Skjef's way of avoiding my point, which I've outlined. People who buy SLI motherboards generally buy them for their intended purpose, running multiple GPUs at the same time in tandem. There is no meaningful market segment that wants to run a GPU and a PPU (physics processing unit for the mentally challenged).Uh huh. Then what was this referring to? (emphasis mine)WTF. Are you kidding me with this crap? Fine, they won't be using it with AGP...great. Are you trying to tell me anyone who buys an SLI/Crossfire motherboard isn't planning on using it with multiple new GPUs? They're going to spend all that money and just throw on an old PPU for fun? You're out of your gourd.I assumed you were referring to the cost of the SLI motherboard itself. My point is that not just people running two video cards are going to have SLI boards, because they are cheap. People who want to leave their upgrade path open will also have SLI boards, and now people who are interested in a better PPU bang-per-buck than Ageia are going to be getting SLI boards.

[Mr.Condescension]

Uh huh. Then what was this referring to? (emphasis mine)I assumed you were referring to the cost of the SLI motherboard itself.

You assumed incorrectly. I was stating, as I have already, that people who buy an SLI board do so in order to run two GPUs, not one GPU and an antiquated GPU running as a PPU. The only type of person that might want a PPU would be a gaming enthusiast, and is a gaming enthusiast really going to buy an SLI board and a new GPU but sacrifice all the extra power they would get from a second GPU to put in an old card for physics processing? Not if they want Chrysis to look good, for instance.

What people may theoretically choose to do and what they actually will choose to do are completely different things. Aegis and other companies have been pushing physics chips and software for years, but nobody has ever bit. Programmers have consistently been more interested in getting their CPU to do physics than incorporate 3rd party physics processing.

[mightbe]

Wake me when AMD gobbles up ATi. This just seems like posturing to scare off people that might buy AGEIA cards.

Those poor, poor people.

[Qoz]

The big effect will not come from people buying a gfx card to make it calculate physics - they will use their old one! IMHO used hardware is often tedious to sell and you get only a fraction of the price (offcourse). So if you have the option in an nVidia driver to make this old gfx card into a PPU, then many people will keep it. This only works for PCI-E ofcourse.
And why should using a GPU as a PPU limit you to only have 1 other GPU?
You can probably run 2 SLI Gfx cards and another older gfx card as dedicated physics accelerator. I believe PCI-E is pretty versatile in this regard.

BTW regarding AGP. The majority of users have AGP.
I have an AGP 6800GT and will only upgrade when Vista ships. I think many people will do the same. And there are ALOT of AGP 6600GT and Radeon9600/9700/9800 still chuggin along out there.

[Mr.Condescension]

~Gah

Any enthusiast will buy the hardware or do whats needed for the most performance of the latest technology. This comes down to preference though. Do I want better graphics or good graphics with better physics? It seems like the devs are loving physics right now so odds are this will stick around in some way. Are you even a gamer?

Like I said earlier. Why be forced to run two GPUs? Just because you have a piece of paper doesnt mean you have to write on it. Make a fucking airplane.

Nice quick editing. I liked the part you edited out...it would have been humorous to respond to. They really aught to fix that whole "can change anything you wrote within 30 sec and avoid the 'last edited' statement".

So let me get this straight.....first I'm an idiot for thinking that most people who buy SLI boards would rather go the full 9 yards and get 2 GPUs than 1 GPU and 1PPU (which all market signs so far point to being the case). Now you're abandoning that tack and saying it all comes down to choice. Ok, well now we can agree on something. I think it's wonderful that people could choose to go that route. I still don't think that means that most people will.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

The "enthusiast" would pair the latest GPU with an older one, the result? The power needed to have the game looking its best, and shit blowing up its best.

[Mr.Condescension]

The "enthusiast" would pair the latest GPU with an older one, the result? The power needed to have the game looking its best, and shit blowing up its best.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the article referring to using the older GPU as a physics processor only? In that case the game would not look its best.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

Nice quick editing. I liked the part you edited out...it would have been humorous to respond to. They really aught to fix that whole "can change anything you wrote within 30 sec and avoid the 'last edited' statement".

You mean the whole "fix what you posted so some dumbass doesnt try to use minor errors against you but would still fail anyways" thing?

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the article referring to using the older GPU as a physics processor only? In that case the game would not look its best.

HOLY SHIT YOU ARE STUPID.

How does the latest GPU, which would have the power to make the game look its best, and "the older GPU as a physics processor only" not make sense?

[Mr.Condescension]

You mean the whole "fix what you posted so some dumbass doesnt try to use minor errors against you but would still fail anyways" thing?

No, I meant the part where you took my argument and bolded certain parts, then came up with how you thought those two parts were contradictory....posted it, read it, and then realized you totally read what I said wrong and were about to look like an ass, and replaced the whole part with:

"~Gah"

Yes, I read what you said, and was about to make you look stupid, until I refreshed and saw it was gone. :rolleyes:

[Mr.Condescension]

HOLY SHIT YOU ARE STUPID.

How does the latest GPU, which would have the power to make the game look its best, and "the older GPU as a physics processor only" not make sense?

Because 2 processors are better than one. Jesus.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

More like Im getting more tired and misread your one sentence because I saw a comma as a period.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

Because 2 processors are better than one. Jesus.

Fuck sake.

Just because its "better" does not mean its necessary to do whats needed.

[Chameleo]

jesus are you guys at eachothers throats or what?

suicidal you're abrasive and insulting.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

Thanks, I was starting to think I have been a bit too nice.

[Skjef]

You assumed incorrectly. I was stating, as I have already, that people who buy an SLI board do so in order to run two GPUs, not one GPU and an antiquated GPU running as a PPU. The only type of person that might want a PPU would be a gaming enthusiast, and is a gaming enthusiast really going to buy an SLI board and a new GPU but sacrifice all the extra power they would get from a second GPU to put in an old card for physics processing? Not if they want Chrysis to look good, for instance.SLI is not even slightly cost effective. Only people with more money than brains are buying $1200 SLI setups. (And people with crazy resolution monitors.) If Havoc FX games that use a PPU produce a noticeable effect on gameplay (not measurable), then it is a cost-effective solution to buy a video card and a physics (GPU) card. I am a gaming enthusiast, and this is the route that I will take.
What people may theoretically choose to do and what they actually will choose to do are completely different things. Aegis and other companies have been pushing physics chips and software for years, but nobody has ever bit. Programmers have consistently been more interested in getting their CPU to do physics than incorporate 3rd party physics processing.Links, please? Opinions are great, but please note them as such. Aegia PhysX has only been out for about ~4 months (http://ageia.vnewscenter.com/press.jsp?id=1143040307847).

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

The true "enthusiast" would wait for bencharks of both options. Most "enthusiasts", damn that term seems so old now, already have SLI, this is why I say they would do the new + old GPU combo. .

~Wait Im insane. SLI with dual GPUs and an Ageia card on the side.

Isnt the argument over which one is better though? Damnit Im tired and slightly confused now.

[Mozgus]

Holy shit. Someone just got friggin OWNED.
I'm assuming you never heard that joke before. Don't worry. The funny wears off by the 2nd time.

In the meantime, I'm right and always will be :cool:

SLI is not even slightly cost effective. Only people with more money than brains are buying $1200 SLI setups. (And people with crazy resolution monitors.)
Bingo.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

I have, but you cant deny it.

[Mozgus]

I have, but you cant deny it.
To have owned me, he would have had to dig up some information that blasts my claims out of the water. Such a thing doesn't exist. Instead he pulled out a random stale insult and left it at that. Last time I checked, ownage in the textual form, requires being clever at the least.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

Eh, not really. The main reason behind me saying you were "owned" is just because I dont think anything else could have been as suitable as what was said.

[Mr.Condescension]

SLI is not even slightly cost effective. Only people with more money than brains are buying $1200 SLI setups. (And people with crazy resolution monitors.) If Havoc FX games that use a PPU produce a noticeable effect on gameplay (not measurable), then it is a cost-effective solution to buy a video card and a physics (GPU) card. I am a gaming enthusiast, and this is the route that I will take.

I have generally found that there are 2 types of gamers in the world (in general). There are the hard-core and the non-hardcore. The non-hardcore are still on AGP utilizing Dells at this moment, and the hard-core are thinking about buying multiple video cards on SLI motherboards. The reason why there usually isn't much middle-ground between the two is that once you've spent $500, $200 becomes alot less expensive in retrospect.

It has been my experience that most people who spend alot of money on their PC gaming rig take alot of pride in that fact, and because of that competitive nature do not like to settle for second best. Most people who go beyond the casual market are usually looking for their rig to look better than the avergage PC gamer's rig, so they will naturally go for GPUs rather than PPUs. Nobody at E3 was complimenting Chrysis on its awesome use of a physics card, they complimented it on its graphics and then thought about getting a rig that could run 2 GPUs. Vanity is natural...there's no reason to be ashamed of it.

If you're planning on running a PPU in your gaming PC, fantastic. I hope that it enhances your enjoyment. I just don't think it's the normal choice for PC gaming enthusiasts.

Links, please? Opinions are great, but please note them as such. Aegia PhysX has only been out for about ~4 months (http://ageia.vnewscenter.com/press.jsp?id=1143040307847).

I could, in fact be wrong about how long Aegis has been in production. I only know about Aegis from talk at work, where the debate about paying for physics processing in addition to cpu and gpu concerns has been waging for at least a year. I appreciate the link.

[Skjef]

To have owned me, he would have had to dig up some information that blasts my claims out of the water. Such a thing doesn't exist. Instead he pulled out a random stale insult and left it at that. Last time I checked, ownage in the textual form, requires being clever at the least.Wow. To insult my insult you must really be desperate. As to your 'claims', there's no way to prove or disprove them. I merely wished to bring attention to the fact that you were talking out of your ass.

[Mr.Condescension]

The true "enthusiast" would wait for bencharks of both options. Most "enthusiasts", damn that term seems so old now, already have SLI, this is why I say they would do the new + old GPU combo. .

~Wait Im insane. SLI with dual GPUs and an Ageia card on the side.

Isnt the argument over which one is better though? Damnit Im tired and slightly confused now.

lol, when you're tired you agree with me. My argument was that you wouldn't want to waste one of your GPU slots on a physics card. In that case for physics you would want an aegia card on the site, if you're a true PC gaming "enthusiast!!!!"

[Mozgus]

Eh, not really. The main reason behind me saying you were "owned" is just because I dont think anything else could have been as suitable as what was said.
Here you go (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owned).

Wow. To insult my insult you must really be desperate. As to your 'claims', there's no way to prove or disprove them. I merely wished to bring attention to the fact that you were talking out of your ass.
As long as you admit your failure. Just don't take me down with the ship.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

We all lost site of the main reason behind this though and I didnt necessarily agree with you.

We went from stand alone PPU vs GPU+GPU[one for physics] to everything else.

[Mr.Condescension]

We all lost site of the main reason behind this though and I didnt necessarily agree with you.

We went from stand alone PPU vs GPU+GPU[one for physics] to everything else.

Gah. Time for bed. We can argue in the morning....if we really disagree....or want to argue....or whatever.

[Lord Dongkey]

Ten-foot-pole in hand, I think I may toss a steak into this pack of raving lunatics...

Or not.

I'm a PC Gaming Enthusiast with an X800 Pro, 2 gigs of ram, and a socket 754 Athlon 64 3400+. Oblivion on 1600x1050 runs smoothly, still decent on 1900x1200 but I like my framerate, max detail, shadows off (since they're broken in many cases and I like my fps) - but you know what? That X800 is AGP.

The general willingness of the PC "enthusiasts" (i.e. fucking retards) to adopt any new standard with .00001% more bandwidth or theoretical performance leads to statements like "AGP is dead". Yeah, and you're putting the nail in the coffin. You're responsible. Well, you, and people like you. As soon as you're willing to accept corporate suits ramming a rebar up your ass and making you cough up more money for a slightly evolutionary new standard, well, be my guest.

Personally, on my lowly old AGP, I'm getting 21 to 60 fps in Oblivion (oh noes, no AA! I'm gonna die.... !?), can run Quake IV at 1900x1200 w/2xAA, 8XAF, max detail.... at 30+ fps.... Doom 3 even faster at that reso/detail - and the list goes on.

AGP is not fucking dead. As soon as I can't run modern games at max detail, then you can tell me how dead it is, but until that time, keep that commie-propogandist bullshit rhetoric to yourself.

Not that I'm bitter.

edit: oh, and on topic - at some point people are going to start realizing that SLI rigs don't get a 100% increase in frame rate, and that getting 30% increase in performance for a 100% increase in price is a bad investment. At some point. That, and until you can show me physics making an appreciable core difference in available gameplay types and paradigms, and show me a fucking slick game that couldn't exist without the $300 cactus-in-the-sphincter that Ageia is trying to sell me, I think this whole debate is moot. Physics is the buzzword right now, but nobody can seem to tell me why.

Physics don't make a game fun(ner). Fun games make games more fun.

[Manzy]

I'd much rather buy an "AI" card than a physics card. Not that I'm comfortable with the fact of having to buy more parts than I normally do to build a gaming rig. Thank God this probably won't catch on.

[RMan]

I reiterate my statement, people do not buy SLI motherboards with the intention of running a GPU and a PPU. They run them expecting to run 2 (or more) GPUs at the same time.
I don't see how this is relevant, they didn't have a choice previously. Without this option, you could only use multiple GPU setups to improve graphics, and as far as I know you couldn’t pair cards of varying generations. I have never found it worthwhile to get a multiple GPU setup just so I can get a slightly higher resolution, but depending on the costs this is definitely appealing. IOW, if building a new machine it costs me an extra $20 bucks for a MB that allows me to use my older PCIE card along with a new one, then I’d totally do it. In short, multiple GPU setups were designed ONLY for the hard-core graphics freak, this is a new purpose and a new market (somewhat), evaluating it’s potential appeal based on it using a similar installation method as something else doesn’t make sense.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

"basically" dead. As in a new, better technology is available and taking over...

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

blah blah blah

Youre not running Oblivion at max detail you admitted that yourself. Also I doubt you have any LOD mods or anything else. Why did you even bother.

[Lord Dongkey]

Youre not running Oblivion at max detail you admitted that yourself. Also I doubt you have any LOD mods or anything else. Why did you even bother.

Max detail minus shadows. As I clearly stated.

Running LOD replacement textures, normal map replacements (the smaller version, 512 I believe vs. the 1024 or 2048's), Jarrod's texture replacement pack with select textures from Qarl, natural environments 2.0, OOO 1.23, oh, and that's right, adrenaline oblivion, so I fight with 10 to 20 models on my screen in many situations cleanly. With 15+ Daedra/Caitliff/kylvna or whatever on screen, yes, the framerate can drop to the 15 mark, but I read of many other gamers with the same performance with vanilla game and not all the changes in there. Oh, and I have another 25 or 30 mods changing various aspects of the game going right now.

Why did I even bother? edit: removing inflammatory response. No point.

Why did I bother - people with AGP systems can still fully enjoy current games with a high degree of detail and playability. That, to me, combined with the fact that the 8x bus on AGP was rarely saturated bandwidth wise up to this point (at least from what I understand in articles regarding PCI-express vs. AGP), means that AGP wasn't really dead, but that business decisions killed it. I'm still playing current games without a top of the line processor, a top of the line mobo, or a top of the line video card, and the idea that people would willingly make the jump to the new tech when it's potentially going to be replaced down the line... well, in short, that's what makes PC enthusiasts... enthusiasts.

I'm not trying to get your feathers ruffled, although that seems to be an inevitability regardless of what I say, but you don't seem too interested in any kind of intellectual debate on this issue. So be it. /shrug

[OrangePulp]

I think some of you guys need to realize that what you post on some internet message board isn't going to change other peoples' minds, and shut the fuck up. Damn.

Personally, I like the idea of physics in games. It was one of the things that made HL2 (and some mods released for it) so great. As for whether you need a dedicated card or not, well, it just makes me wonder how many people thought dedicated GPUs were unnecessary, back in the day.

[Lord Dongkey]

I think some of you guys need to realize that what you post on some internet message board isn't going to change other peoples' minds, and shut the fuck up. Damn.

Personally, I like the idea of physics in games. It was one of the things that made HL2 (and some mods released for it) so great. As for whether you need a dedicated card or not, well, it just makes me wonder how many people thought dedicated GPUs were unnecessary, back in the day.

Being drunk, I'm more likely to be frank now than usual. Although I'm typically pretty blunt.

The goal is not to change someone else's mind. The goal is to change your own. You put your own ideas out there, they get ripped to shreds. The end. No matter where you go, some precocious twat is going to rip your shit to shreds, and you get to question your own definitions of what things are and rebuild your views from the ground up.

At least, that's what people do who win at teh intarweb. Other people, they just try to convert everyone else.

How do you spell precocious? Fuck it, I'm going to go play Oblivion. You get the point.