Untold Legends: Dark Kingdom Screens

[bapenguin]

We've got 6 new Screenshots (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=303960#post303960) of Sony's PS3 exclusive Untold Legends: Dark Kingdom.

They're explosive...

http://www.evilavatar.com/images/previews/untold_legends/thumb.slave_camp_warrior__16_.jpg (http://www.evilavatar.com/images/previews/image.php?image=www.evilavatar.com/images/previews/untold_legends/slave_camp_warrior__16_.jpg)

[UnderHero5]

I liked the first Untold Legends for PSP, I mean it wasn't anything great but it was fun.
However I watched some video of this one last night and the actual gameplay doesn't look very satisfying.
If you're going to have a hack n' slash then you need that direct contact feeling when you hit the enemy with your weapon. The weapon seemed to just... pass through the enemies without much indication that it was actually making contact.

Hopefully they change that by the games release. Not that I'll own a PS3 any time soon, but still.

[Skjef]

If it's actually running at 1900x1080 at a decent framerate, I'll be impressed.

Looks like a fairly standard Dynasty Warrior clone at this point, though.

[bone_matrix]

It doesn't really look bad, but, to me, there really isn't any style. Looks like hack'n'slash #37. I liked Untold Legends on the PSP, but it has the same problem. There isn't really anything about it that stands out from the pack.

[Borys]

In this thread I will defend Sony and their pricing/ games/ philosophy from Reanimated's & Kamalot's non-stop onslaught. Brace yourself, folks, I'm not gonna go down easy.

Oh yeah, one more thing - this game looks like Fable on the Xbox, shame on SCEE for launching this on the PS3. It should be at least 1080p & 60 fps.

[Chalex]

Oh yeah, one more thing - this game looks like Fable on the Xbox, shame on SCEE for launching this on the PS3. It should be at least 1080p & 60 fps.While I'd like to see this game at 1080p and 60fps, as it is right now I don't think it looks any worse than Kameo.

[Mr.Condescension]

While it's impressive it's supposedly running at such a high resolution, I have to say this game is a perfect example of an art team getting next-gen hardware and not having the slightest clue what to do with it. Just because you have the tools to use HDR, pixel bloom, or whatever the hell else is making everything shiny and glossy, doesn't mean you should use those tools on e..v..e..r..y..t..h..i..n..g. I'm buying a PS3, but this game they can probably keep. lol

[bapenguin]

In this thread I will defend Sony and their pricing/ games/ philosophy from Reanimated's & Kamalot's non-stop onslaught. Brace yourself, folks, I'm not gonna go down easy.


I'd like to see an Animated representation of this...preferably in an anime style complete with cheesy fireballs.

[KarmaGhost]

I think that, perhaps, there is a reason these Legends have gone untold.

[rein]

Did any of the guys working on Untold Legends work on Champions of Norrath? If so, I will give them the benifit of doubt. Champions of Norrath was a pretty good hack-n-slash.

[Salesmunn]

A lot of attention for a franchise that has been below-average from the beginning and will continue to be as-such without Snowblind.

[Returner]

Did any of the guys working on Untold Legends work on Champions of Norrath? If so, I will give them the benifit of doubt. Champions of Norrath was a pretty good hack-n-slash.

It was ok, I liked Dark Alliance II more.

[Kamalot]

I'd like to see an Animated representation of this...preferably in an anime style complete with cheesy fireballs.HADOKEN!
http://nosoul4evr.cyberfuturism.com/characters/images/ryu/hadoken.gif

[tombofsoldier]

Forget this crap and lets have blizzard give us Diablo 3 already. If you realy want good art direction anyone can clearly see Diablo 2 is still one of the most interesting looking games ever made (even if it is in 2d).

[Returner]

Forget this crap and lets have blizzard give us Diablo 3 already. If you realy want good art direction anyone can clearly see Diablo 2 is still one of the most interesting looking games ever made (even if it is in 2d).


STFU, good game yes good art direction hell no even for it's time it looked liked ass. The game was fun so screw the art.

[Kamalot]

Oh yeah, one more thing - this game looks like Fable on the Xbox, shame on SCEE for launching this on the PS3. It should be at least 1080p & 60 fps.
Quoted for truth. Last gen visuals for a flagship title?

[Mr.Condescension]

Quoted for truth. Last gen visuals for a flagship title?

*shiver*

Please don't call this a "flagship title". Nobody called Gun a flagship title. That's just rude.

[tombofsoldier]

STFU, good game yes good art direction hell no even for it's time it looked liked ass. The game was fun so screw the art.

It was dark, creepy and had giant monsters. Giant pits of lava, flaming demons, and such look way cooler than this untold legends crap. I'll admit its not waht most people would think of, but Diablo 2 blew stuff up witht he best of them.

[Mason]

I'd like to see an Animated representation of this...preferably in an anime style complete with cheesy fireballs.
"It's impossible! Over time he adapted to our price-rant attacks. Quick, fire off a Inquirer article that makes the PS3 sound like an Atari! Never mind the facts!"
"He deflected it, damn him. Why won't he die!"

[Kamalot]

*shiver*

Please don't call this a "flagship title". Nobody called Gun a flagship title. That's just rude.
I didn't make up the 'Flagship Title' part.

http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13599&highlight=untold+legends

Some previews have been popping up for Sony's flagship next-gen title, Untold Legends: Dark Kingdom.

It isn't my fault their flagship sucks. :D

Edit: I wouldn't mind this assy looking game if it was something special to play. Everything points to a mindless chop-shop of dungeon crawling though. I read in Game Informer that one of the primary features about this game is that is uses two buttons for combat. Woah! Talk about innovation! :rolleyes:

[CapnBob]

Untold Legends? Isn't this the one with those ads featuring the retardedly-proportioned barbarian whose head is roughly the same size and appearance of a newborn infant's? I've seen better art direction from Rob Liefeld.

[Mr.Condescension]

I didn't make up the 'Flagship Title' part.

http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13599&highlight=untold+legends


Thankfully, bapenguin isn't a Sony rep and wasn't quoting anyone. If Sony was hailing UL as their "flagship title" I'd be mightily annoyed.

[Kefkataran]

It isn't my fault their flagship sucks.

Wait, because Bap said it, it's true? I love Bap as much as the next guy, but if you wanna make a point, you're gonna need a real source, buddy.

Untold Legends? Isn't this the one with those ads featuring the retardedly-proportioned barbarian whose head is roughly the same size and appearance of a newborn infant's? I've seen better art direction from Rob Liefeld.

Holy crap, now THAT is an insult.

[Kamalot]

Thankfully, bapenguin isn't a Sony rep and wasn't quoting anyone. If Sony was hailing UL as their "flagship title" I'd be mightily annoyed.
What IS the PS3's flagship title? This one is slated to be a launch title is is created by a 1st party. Wouldn't that make it their flagship?

A flagship is the ship used by the commanding officer of a group of naval ships. The term originates from the custom of the commanding officer (usually, but not always, an admiral) to fly a distinguishing flag.

Is Sony launching any other 1st-party titles at launch that will carry the Sony flag?

I am genuine and curious.

[UglyPimp]

While I'd like to see this game at 1080p and 60fps, as it is right now I don't think it looks any worse than Kameo.

Yeah, same thing struck me. But Kameo had hundreds of on screen characters at once whizzing by at smooth frame rate. I'm wondering if the Cell is just outclassing this dev from getting a good frame rate going. I'm sure it requires at least seasoned to moderate vets to pull some good stuff out of it.

[Mr.Condescension]

What IS the PS3's flagship title? This one is slated to be a launch title is is created by a 1st party. Wouldn't that make it their flagship?



Is Sony launching any other 1st-party titles at launch that will carry the Sony flag?

I am genuine and curious.

Insomniac is a 1st party developer and is making Resistance Fall of Man, which is a launch title. I'd say that's probably their "flagship title" for launch.

[dimsumx]

Untold Legends? Isn't this the one with those ads featuring the retardedly-proportioned barbarian whose head is roughly the same size and appearance of a newborn infant's? I've seen better art direction from Rob Liefeld.

What a bunch of bull.

Rob Liefeld never had any art direction.

[Kamalot]

Insomniac is a 1st party developer and is making Resistance Fall of Man, which is a launch title. I'd say that's probably their "flagship title" for launch.
That is good to know. It looks like Insomniac is a 2nd or 3rd party though. Their web site states, "Insomniac Games is an independent videogame developer" which would mean to me that they aren't owned by Sony. They may be paid by Sony to keep developing on the Playstation platform, but that does not make them 1st party.

I could be wrong though. Does anyone else have information on Insomniac Games (http://www.insomniacgames.com/index.php)?

[greenapple]

Um, on that basis then, what was the x360's "flagship"? Cleary Bethesda isn't Microsoft owned. I seem to recall you posted that Oblivion was the killer ap for x360.

On a more serious note, I really, really hope you realize that you are simply trolling with this Untold Legends is the pinnacle of PS3'ness crap. The game appears to suck, and not because of ANYTHING that has to do with it being on the PS3. Crap art direction and bland design is the same on any game console.

[BenN1ce]

At least on a side note they said graphically they are only half-way were they want to be whatever that means and this game will only be 1080i max.

[Mr.Condescension]

That is good to know. It looks like Insomniac is a 2nd or 3rd party though. Their web site states, "Insomniac Games is an independent videogame developer" which would mean to me that they aren't owned by Sony. They may be paid by Sony to keep developing on the Playstation platform, but that does not make them 1st party.

I could be wrong though. Does anyone else have information on Insomniac Games (http://www.insomniacgames.com/index.php)?

Insomniac appears to be a 2nd party developer, so they have an exclusive contract with Sony, and Sony publishes their games. So, while not owned by Sony specifically, they only make games for Sony and for all intents and purposes they act as a 1st party developer. Until now, though, I had assumed that Sony owned them. I don't think it matters, though, since an exclusive is an exclusive. I think as long as the game is a guaranteed exclusive it can be considered a "flagship title" or a system seller, or a killer app....whatever you want to call it.

[Mr.Condescension]

At least on a side note they said graphically they are only half-way were they want to be whatever that means and this game will only be 1080i max.

Where does it say they are going for 1080i max? I'd like to see a link for that, since it doesn't make any sense. 1080i is only native for crts, so it seems an odd resolution to shoot for.

[bKangy]

Looks a bit crap to me, Kameo looked better to be honest.

[Reanimated]

I love that we're pimping this game here. We need some new media for Fifth Phantom Saga as well. My dream is to have the front page absolutely filled with garbage looking PS3 games.

If anyone from SCEI is reading (aside from the viral marketers here), could you please send us new images for Afrika, GTHD, Genji 2, Fifth Phantom Saga, and all those other crappy looking games you've shown? Thanks much.

http://home.comcast.net/~kennedyl079/619.gif

[Kamalot]

Insomniac appears to be a 2nd party developer, so they have an exclusive contract with Sony, and Sony publishes their games. So, while not owned by Sony specifically, they only make games for Sony and for all intents and purposes they act as a 1st party developer. Until now, though, I had assumed that Sony owned them. I don't think it matters, though, since an exclusive is an exclusive. I think as long as the game is a guaranteed exclusive it can be considered a "flagship title" or a system seller, or a killer app....whatever you want to call it.
Okay, 2nd party it is.

I don't know about callint it a flagship title though. The flagship is the ship that has the commander, not the 2nd in command.

[KNOTE]

This doesn't look that bad. The characters aren't the greatest designs but it could be fun. Is this going to be online-centric?

[Kamalot]

Looks a bit crap to me, Kameo looked better to be honest.
Kameo looked quite junky. It had a lot of power in the engine, but I felt like it was dealing with low-poly models and a very questionable artistic style. Having said that, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[Borys]

What IS the PS3's flagship title? This one is slated to be a launch title is is created by a 1st party. Wouldn't that make it their flagship?

Nope, flagship is flagship. A franchise people buy the hardware for.

Metal Gear Solid 4. Devil May Cry 4. Final Fantasy XIII.

Those are Sony's flagship titles.

Too friggin bad they won't be launch titles, oh well, neither was Halo 3 nor Fable 2 nor Splinter Cell 4.

Basically Sony's launch-up is a rehash of Xbox 360's. There's a racer (PGR3 <--> Motorstorm) an action RPG game (Kameo <--> Untold Legends) a shooter (COD2 <--> Resistance) sports (EA) etc.

I know people swallowed those 360 games at launch and I know people will swallow PS3 titles as well. Launch drought is a baaaaaaaaad thing but every console has to suffer one.

[Kamalot]

Um, on that basis then, what was the x360's "flagship"? Cleary Bethesda isn't Microsoft owned. I seem to recall you posted that Oblivion was the killer ap for x360.

On a more serious note, I really, really hope you realize that you are simply trolling with this Untold Legends is the pinnacle of PS3'ness crap. The game appears to suck, and not because of ANYTHING that has to do with it being on the PS3. Crap art direction and bland design is the same on any game console.
Yep, for me Oblivion sold the Xbox 360. It made more sense to pick up a 360 than to buy a new computer to play Oblivion. I didn't call it a flagship title though.

I wonder if this confusion is caused by people having different definitions of the phrase, "flagship title". I would think a flagship is very different from a killer app.

As for the 360's Flagship, I don't know. What games does Microsoft make? I don't think I have any 1st party Microsoft games.

[Mike Jones]

As sad as those screens are it's actually a miracle SOE is making a game look that "good"

They created this hotness with Everquest :D

http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/eqoa_021103_01.jpg

http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/EQOAFrontier_051503_04.jpg

[Mr.Condescension]

Okay, 2nd party it is.

I don't know about callint it a flagship title though. The flagship is the ship that has the commander, not the 2nd in command.

I don't know if that's fair. What launch game did Microsoft's 1st party developers do? (I honestly don't know) Was it their flagship title? I'm guessing no.

[Kamalot]

Nope, flagship is flagship. A franchise people buy the hardware for.
I would argue that you are mistaking a flagship for a killer app.

Flagship: the ship carrying the commander of a group of ships and carrying his flag showing his rank

Killer App: A slang term for a new and popular software application that is widely accepted and purchased by computer users.

[Mr.Condescension]

As sad as those screens are it's actually a miracle SOE is making a game look that "good"

They created this hotness with Everquest :D

http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/eqoa_021103_01.jpg

http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/EQOAFrontier_051503_04.jpg

Man, I was really into MMOs when EQ dropped, and I wouldn't touch that with a 10' pole way back then because the graphics were crap then too!

[Kamalot]

As sad as those screens are it's actually a miracle SOE is making a game look that "good"

They created this hotness with Everquest :D

http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/eqoa_021103_01.jpg

http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/EQOAFrontier_051503_04.jpg
Now Mike,

That's not fair. That game was created a LONG time ago. It was designed to run on a wide range of PCs. I believe the first versions could even be played without 3D cards. There was no cell processor back then.

[Mr.Condescension]

I would argue that you are mistaking a flagship for a killer app.

Flagship: the ship carrying the commander of a group of ships and carrying his flag showing his rank

Killer App: A slang term for a new and popular software application that is widely accepted and purchased by computer users.

Sadly, there was a launch game that might have filled both qualifications for alot of people: Heavenly Sword. Unfortunately it's been pushed back to a launch window game, like oblivion and GRAW. Maybe the flagship is in for repairs and will join the fleet soon? hehe

[bapenguin]

Guys...I was JOKING about the flagship thing the other day.

Chill.

[Borys]

I love that we're pimping this game here. We need some new media for Fifth Phantom Saga as well. My dream is to have the front page absolutely filled with garbage looking PS3 games.

Submit it then. Maybe it will go straight to the forums like your recent submission. ZING!

If anyone from SCEI is reading (aside from the viral marketers here), could you please send us new images for Afrika, GTHD, Genji 2, Fifth Phantom Saga, and all those other crappy looking games you've shown? Thanks much.

For every Genji 2, FPS and GT:HD there is one Over-G, Chrome Chounds and FCK on the 360... ooops, scratch that, it was *so* shitty they had to can it!

[Mike Jones]

Now Mike,

That's not fair. That game was created a LONG time ago. It was designed to run on a wide range of PCs. I believe the first versions could even be played without 3D cards. There was no cell processor back then.

I don't recall any SOE game wowing anyone with graphics. Maybe Champions of Norrath was respectable I can't really think of any others so why would this game be any different?

[sTubbs]

I wonder how many games a going to look like this in order to reach 1080p? Given the choice between higher resolution and better textures / more polys, I will take the latter every time.

[Zanzibar]

I don't know if that's fair. What launch game did Microsoft's 1st party developers do? (I honestly don't know) Was it their flagship title? I'm guessing no.

Microsoft owns Rare, who launched the X360 with Kameo and Perfect Dark Zero. I really liked Kameo, but lost interest in PDZ.

Oh, and Project Gotham Racing 3.

[Borys]

Now Mike,

That's not fair. That game was created a LONG time ago. It was designed to run on a wide range of PCs. I believe the first versions could even be played without 3D cards. There was no cell processor back then.

You missed his point. There are good developers and bad developers. There are more and less talented ones.

If you want to point at UL:DK and say this is the representative of PS3 graphics I can point to MGS:4 as well.

UL:DK is the bottom of the barrel while Guns of Patriots is the mountaintop. Can't keep on talking about one without remembering the other.

[Kefkataran]

Guys...I was JOKING about the flagship thing the other day.

Look what you've started?! :S

[Borys]

Ok guys it's 23:30 here, I'm going to bed. This thread will get ripped during the night, *sigh*.

Night all!

[Kamalot]

You missed his point. There are good developers and bad developers. There are more and less talented ones.

If you want to point at UL:DK and say this is the representative of PS3 graphics I can point to MGS:4 as well.

UL:DK is the bottom of the barrel while Guns of Patriots is the mountaintop. Can't keep on talking about one without remembering the other.I don't know that I ever said this is the best the PS3 has to offer. Personally, I think the MGS interactive demo looks much better, although some would argue with me.

Untold Legends should be kept under wraps until it is on store shelves. They'd sell more copies if people picked it up on impulse. These previews are just going to drive people away from the game, and perhaps the PS3 by proxy.

[rein]

Now Mike,

That's not fair. That game was created a LONG time ago. It was designed to run on a wide range of PCs. I believe the first versions could even be played without 3D cards. There was no cell processor back then.

He posted pics of the PS2 Everquest game, online adventures. I'm not even sure what the point in that is. I don't recall the Xbox having an online rpg so...

I find it funny people rip on EQ for graphics anyway...

...is this any better?
http://www.stateofinsomnia.com/images/ac.jpg

[Reanimated]

Submit it then. Maybe it will go straight to the forums like your recent submission. ZING!



For every Genji 2, FPS and GT:HD there is one Over-G, Chrome Chounds and FCK on the 360... ooops, scratch that, it was *so* shitty they had to can it!




That's nice, but isn't the PS3 supposed to be "orders of magnitude" more powerful?

Oopsie, guess that was another Kuturagi fairy tale. :o

[Mr.Condescension]

That's nice, but isn't the PS3 supposed to be "orders of magnitude" more powerful?

Oopsie, guess that was another Kuturagi fairy tale. :o

Yeah, and Peter Moore really got a GTA tattoo in bright red and white. Come on, does it really matter that Ken's fucking Crazy?

[Kamalot]

Yeah, and Peter Moore really got a GTA tattoo in bright red and white. Come on, does it really matter that Ken's fucking Crazy?
Personally I draw a distinction between branding oneself and outright lying to your customer base.

[Mr.Condescension]

Personally I draw a distinction between branding oneself and outright lying to your customer base.

Jesus. So in the South Park movie the general shot Bill Gates in the head for *not* lying about Windows 98's vast improvements in speed? Internet Explorer is now *not* integrated into the Windows Operating System and is *not* impossible to remove? They didn't lie about that? I mean come on! Microsoft was taken to court by the US Government! But Sony is a den of thieves and liars because Krazy Ken embellishes and exaggerates? Wow, you got me there.

[Reanimated]

Personally I draw a distinction between branding oneself and outright lying to your customer base.



Yeah, I'm still waiting for Ken's promise of the PS2 "jacking you into the matrix" to materialize. Is that gonna be some kind of firmware update?

And hell, it's not just Ken. Phil Harrison and Kaz have been on the bullshit bang bus for a while.

[Kamalot]

Jesus. So in the South Park movie the general shot Bill Gates in the head for *not* lying about Windows 98's vast improvements in speed? Internet Explorer is now *not* integrated into the Windows Operating System and is *not* impossible to remove? They didn't lie about that? I mean come on! Microsoft was taken to court by the US Government! But Sony is a den of thieves and liars because Krazy Ken embellishes and exaggerates? Wow, you got me there.
You quoted two instances, not two companies. I compared those instances. You compared getting a tattoo to lying to your customers. Those aren't the same thing at all.

Edit: And I"m sorry I can't argue the specifics with you. I've never seen a South Park movie. :)

[Mr.Condescension]

You quoted two instances, not two companies. I compared those instances. You compared getting a tattoo to lying to your customers. Those aren't the same thing at all.

Edit: And I"m sorry I can't argue the specifics with you. I've never seen a South Park movie. :)

I mentioned the South Park movie only to point out that Microsofts dubious business practices are well enough known to have made it into mainstream pop culture.

[Kamalot]

I mentioned the South Park movie only to point out that Microsofts dubious business practices are well enough known to have made it into mainstream pop culture.
I figured. That's why it came as an edit, complete with one'a these guys --> :)

[Mr.Condescension]

You quoted two instances, not two companies. I compared those instances. You compared getting a tattoo to lying to your customers. Those aren't the same thing at all.

Edit: And I"m sorry I can't argue the specifics with you. I've never seen a South Park movie. :)

My point is that if every lie or exaggeration is going to get you up in arms, then you should be upset that Peter Moore claimed to have gotten a tattoo of GTA, when he obviously has not. It's utterly silly to worry about what Ken Kuturagi is saying about the 4th dimension and toy story graphics and whatnot, when Microsoft lies all the time as well. Hell, Microsoft made the same boast about Toy Story graphics a year later with the Xbox. That's hilarious, but completely unimportant to the grand scheme of things. Business is business, marketing is marketing, and none of it is honest. Let's not have double standards here.

[Mike Jones]

He posted pics of the PS2 Everquest game, online adventures. I'm not even sure what the point in that is. I don't recall the Xbox having an online rpg so...

I find it funny people rip on EQ for graphics anyway...

...is this any better?
http://www.stateofinsomnia.com/images/ac.jpg

The same team is making Untold Legends..

[Kamalot]

My point is that if every lie or exaggeration is going to get you up in arms, then you should be upset that Peter Moore claimed to have gotten a tattoo of GTA, when he obviously has not. It's utterly silly to worry about what Ken Kuturagi is saying about the 4th dimension and toy story graphics and whatnot, when Microsoft lies all the time as well. Hell, Microsoft made the same boast about Toy Story graphics a year later with the Xbox. That's hilarious, but completely unimportant to the grand scheme of things. Business is business, marketing is marketing, and none of it is honest. Let's not have double standards here.

Ahh. I thought that Peter Moore's tattoo was real (http://www.kotaku.com/gaming//yes-that-halo-tattoo-is-real-173052.php). If it is indeed fake, then I would be a little upset. I still draw a bold line between lying about something you did personally and about a product you are about to sell to millions. Had Peter told me that the 360 was orders of magnitude more powerful than the PS3, I would be upset too. It is obvious that neither is orders of mangitude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude) more powerful than the other.

Yes, I get upset when companies lie. Everyone should.

[rein]

The same team is making Untold Legends..

...and? My point with the pic of Asherons Call is that it is a EQ era game. If you compare EQ graphics with other online games from that era, they really are not bad at all.

If they can keep a solid frame rate, the pics in the OP article look pretty good. I will want to see it in action before I compare it to anything else this generation, but so far it looks at a minimum, on par with X360 launch titles.

[Mr.Condescension]

Ahh. I thought that Peter Moore's tattoo was real (http://www.kotaku.com/gaming//yes-that-halo-tattoo-is-real-173052.php). If it is indeed fake, then I would be a little upset. I still draw a bold line between lying about something you did personally and about a product you are about to sell to millions. Had Peter told me that the 360 was orders of magnitude more powerful than the PS3, I would be upset too. It is obvious that neither is orders of mangitude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude) more powerful than the other.

Yes, I get upset when companies lie. Everyone should.

I can definitely see where you're coming from here, but I also think it's humorous the way people are tearing down Sony and propping up Microsoft as the good guy. That's high comedy. Sony has designed many things that we take for granted today, such as the trinitron technology that runs most of the CRTs in the world. Microsoft has done good things and bad things as well. It's all relative, and I think people forget the history of things and the context.

As for being lied to, I'm of the mind that every company lies to us pretty much all the time. Performance specs for every piece of hardware are always hyped up and over exaggerated. Sony and Microsoft have both even lied about the exact same things in the past! It's spin...it's marketing....it's just the way the world works, and it's nothing to get worked up over. How many times does a crappy, crappy movie have trumped up reviews, or the tagline "the best movie of the year!" on it? If you get worked up over every interview that contains no real information in it you're going to probably end up dying at an early age. You're certainly entitled to your own moral compass, though.

[Achilles]

It looks a lot better than the early screenshots, but unless they improve the gameplay/world and make it something interesting I doubt it’ll sell over 200k. If Resistance makes launch (remember Oblivion was supposed to make launch?) than it’ll probably be their biggest non-sports game.Um, on that basis then, what was the x360's "flagship"? Cleary Bethesda isn't Microsoft owned.I think the 360's flagship title was CoD2 (3rd party), it sold to 77% of the people who bought the system within the first 3 months, and it wasn't included in most bundles. If you or Kamalot or any of the other flagsnip folks are talking about the game that defines the system (not sure what the definition of “flagship” is) I don’t think it’s showed up yet for the 360, Oblivion has done a great job but it’s not really what the system is going to be known for in 3 years. I’ll probably be either Gears or Halo 3. For the PS3 it’ll probably be FFXIII unless it goes multiplatform (one FFXIII game, the action game was confirmed exclusive, the RPG is still up in the air).

[Mr.Condescension]

It looks a lot better than the early screenshots, but unless they improve the gameplay/world and make it something interesting I doubt it’ll sell over 200k. If Resistance makes launch (remember Oblivion was supposed to make launch?) than it’ll probably be their biggest non-sports game.I think the 360's flagship title was CoD2 (3rd party), it sold to 77% of the people who bought the system within the first 3 months, and it wasn't included in most bundles. If you or Kamalot or any of the other flagsnip folks are talking about the game that defines the system (not sure what the definition of “flagship” is) I don’t think it’s showed up yet for the 360, Oblivion has done a great job but it’s not really what the system is going to be known for in 3 years. I’ll probably be either Gears or Halo 3. For the PS3 it’ll probably be FFXIII unless it goes multiplatform (one FFXIII game, the action game was confirmed exclusive, the RPG is still up in the air).

A recent interview with Square developers says that both FFXIII and FF Versus XIII are being developed only for the PS3, and an older one says that the decision to develop on the PS3 is based on the Blu-ray drive and better shaders.

http://1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3151333&did=1

and...

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/710/710761p1.html

Toriyama and Versus producer Shinji Hashimoto defended the decision to release FFXIII on the PS3. According to Hashimoto, the development staff determined that one DVD would not be enough for the type of visual expression they were attempting to make. Toriyama noted that, regarding visual expression, the PS3's shader abilities are a big factor

[Kamalot]

As for being lied to, I'm of the mind that every company lies to us pretty much all the time. Performance specs for every piece of hardware are always hyped up and over exaggerated. Sony and Microsoft have both even lied about the exact same things in the past! It's spin...it's marketing....it's just the way the world works, and it's nothing to get worked up over. How many times does a crappy, crappy movie have trumped up reviews, or the tagline "the best movie of the year!" on it? If you get worked up over every interview that contains no real information in it you're going to probably end up dying at an early age. You're certainly entitled to your own moral compass, though.
I don't like being lied to. I don't care if it is my friends, my family, my coworkers, or giant multi-national corporations. I don't know anyone that enjoys being lied to. As consumers, we shouldn't put up with it.

[Achilles]

A recent interview with Square developers says that both FFXIII and FF Versus XIII are being developed only for the PS3, and an older one says that the decision to develop on the PS3 is based on the Blu-ray drive and better shaders.

http://1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3151333&did=1

and...

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/710/710761p1.htmlThank you for those articles, but none of them say that FFXIII is exclusive to the PS3, only that it is being made for the PS3. If you have quotes in those articles that say FFXIII, not just FFXIII Versus is only ever coming to the PS3 than you'll have to call them out, because I couldn't find them.

Even in the quote you posted, it doesn't say 'defended the decision to release the game exclusive to the PS3' or 'only on the PS3'. They're essentially asking 'why did you chose to wait and release it on the PS3?'

They made the comment that the PS3’s shaders were a big factor in the visuals, and they’d have to ship it on multiple DVDs if it didn’t come on Blu-ray. The shader question was framed in the ‘why isn’t it being made for the PS2’ way, not in reference to the 360. All following questions are discussing the PS2 vs the PS3 as a platform. Kitase has some insight into the differences in making a game for the PS2 as opposed to the PS3.For now to me it seems that the fate of FFXIII is up in the air. It could be that they even do a Japan release only to the PS3, and a US multiplatform release depending on how the marketshare sorts itself out.

Sony probably asked for an exclusive and Versus was born, but Square didn't want to bet the farm on the PS3 just yet.

[Mr.Condescension]

Thank you for those articles, but none of them say that FFXIII is exclusive to the PS3, only that it is being made for the PS3. If you have quotes in those articles that say FFXIII, not just FFXIII Versus is only every coming to the PS3 than you'll have to call them out, because I couldn't find them. Even in the quote you posted, it doesn't say 'defended the decision to release the game exclusive to the PS3' or 'only on the PS3'. They're essentially asking 'why did you chose to wait and release it on the PS3?'

They made the comment that the PS3’s shaders were a big factor in the visuals, and they’d have to ship it on multiple DVDs if it didn’t come on Blu-ray. The shader question was framed in the ‘why isn’t it being made for the PS2’ way, not in reference to the 360. All following questions are discussing the PS2 vs the PS3 as a platform.For now to me it seems that the fate of FFXIII is up in the air. It could be that they even do a Japan release only to the PS3, and a US multiplatform release depending on how the marketshare sorts itself out.

Sony probably asked for an exclusive and Versus was born, but Square didn't want to bet the farm on the PS3 just yet.

Your interpretation of the article seems a bit sketchy. Perhaps the shaders comment was about the PS2, perhaps not, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that.

On another point though, you seem to be off the mark. Never once do they mention the possibility of the game coming on multiple DVDs. Any thought of that is something you're injecting into the interview. There is another article about their wanting blu-ray that I'll have to find as well.

Also, you have the exclusivity on the titles switched. The FFXIII main game trailer ended with "PlayStation 3 Exclusive." The other game FF Versus XIII is the one being developed for the PS3 but hasn't been stated as explicitly exclusive. You can bet your ass it will be, though, if Xbox 360 sales follow their current trends in Japan.

http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/rpg/finalfantasy13/news.html?sid=6149480

[Kamalot]

Also, you have the exclusivity on the titles switched. The FFXIII main game trailer ended with "PlayStation 3 Exclusive." The other game FF Versus XIII is the one being developed for the PS3 but hasn't been stated as explicitly exclusive. You can bet your ass it will be, though, if Xbox 360 sales follow their current trends in Japan.

http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/rpg/finalfantasy13/news.html?sid=6149480

Final Fantasy coming to the 360 has nothing to do with how well the Xbox 360 does in Japan. The primary factor in Final Fantasy coming to the 360 is how well the PS3 sells here. If the PS3 bombs here, Square may make Final Fantasy for other platforms to collect on the massive amount of money they spend making the game. PS3 would have to do very badly though, selling about half of what they sold this last generation.

Sqenix is releasing multiple versions of each game. They know fans will buy multiple Final Fantasy games, and can thereby survive on a smaller installed base that buys more games. Squenix is all about milking franchises these days, they aren't the old Square we once knew.

[Mr.Condescension]

Here is one of the links I was trying to find, which has quotes from developers about needing or wanting blu-ray. Apologies for the google translation, since it's not in English:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sourceid=navclient-menuext&hl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eps3%2Dlive%2Ecom%2Fnews%2Dps3 %2Fles%2Ddeveloppeurs%2Dnous%2Dparlent%2Ddes%2Ddif ferents%2Dsupports%2Dde%2Dstockage%2Ehtml

Several developers delivered their opinion to us on the various storage mediums of data for the video games, and more particularly on Blu Ray and the DVD. Here are some extracts:


The Darkness, developers:

… Xbox360 is a very good console, but a thing worries us: the problem of the storage medium of the data, the DVD thus. One should especially standardize this fact, it is a problem more neither nor less…


TEAM Ninja, developers:

… We have two remarks to formulate in connection with the decision of Microsoft to choose the DVD. Firstly, that limits the developers. 9 GB is simply too little, especially if one wants to add “cutscenes” in HD with a play. It is very ironic that Microsoft does not cease repeating that their console is a true console HD, while the support which they chose it is not! Secondly, that would not astonish us only in one immediate future, Microsoft left Xbox360 (a), with a DVD-HD or Blu Ray integrated…


“Enchant Arms” (rpg) developers:

… One would have liked to put the play on two DVD, but that seems already impossible to us. Probably one will need three DVD at least, and each player can assure you that the change of disc is not more amusing. Moreover, that harms environment general of the play…


Vivendi Universal, Michael Heilmann, chief “technology officer”:

… The technical needs for the developers of plays are such as a more important storage medium is essential. Blu Ray will give us the performances, the quantity and the speed which we will need…


Electronic Arts, developers:

… The next plays next-gen will be in HD and it is capital that Sony chose Blu Ray for that. This one indeed offers to us the capacity, the interactivity and all the functionalities necessary for our projects to come…


Mark Kidney, Epic Games:

… Unreal Tournament took already 6 GB! The plays of the next generation will be able to reach the 20 GB, even more. It consequently seems impossible to us to transpose all these data on only one DVD of 9 GB. Several DVD will certainly have to be used with this intention. On the other hand, this problem will not arise with the PS3…


Toriyama of “Public garden-Enix”:

… We had several internal discussions and the choice to leave FFXIII on playstation 3 is mainly related to the presence of Blu Ray. Indeed, the “visual expressions” that we intend to use in FFXIII are such as a simple DVD would not be enough. Moreover, the possiblities of “shader” of the PS3 exceed those of Xbox360 by far…

So there you have it, Square developer quoted as saying that FFXIII is on the PS3 specifically because of blu-ray and the ps3 having better shaders "by far".

[Paranoia]

Doesn't look like a game to convince someone to spend $500 on a game console.

[Kamalot]

Toriyama of “Public garden-Enix”:
OMG, this is the best thing I've seen all day!

[Mr.Condescension]

OMG, this is the best thing I've seen all day!

gah! Well, someone else find a better translation then. lol. Anyway, the message is still the same, even if it's ugly to read.

[Mr.Condescension]

Doesn't look like a game to convince someone to spend $500 on a game console.

At least someone finally used the $500 price as their "this one game isn't worth buying a system" crapola instead of the $600 price. ;)

[Kelegacy]

Sigh. When I saw 70-something replies to this post on the front page, I just knew Reanimated and Kamalot would be here.

[Paranoia]

At least someone finally used the $500 price as their "this one game isn't worth buying a system" crapola instead of the $600 price. ;)

$500 is still a lot of dough to some people.

I'm eager to see the price for PS3 games on a blu-ray disc.

[Mr.Condescension]

Sigh. When I saw 70-something replies to this post on the front page, I just knew Reanimated and Kamalot would be here.

And their new bestest buddy, Mr. Condescension! :D

[Mr.Condescension]

$500 is still a lot of dough to some people.

I'm eager to see the price for PS3 games on a blu-ray disc.

Yep, $500 is alot of dough to some people. I wouldn't argue that point. $400 is alot to some people too, as is $250. It's all relative.

Oh, btw....I'd have to dig around, but I recently saw a post claiming that all PS3 games will ship on Blu-Ray (because of the encryption and to drive the manufacturing price down) and will be the same price as xbox 360 games ($60).

[bapenguin]

I can definitely see where you're coming from here, but I also think it's humorous the way people are tearing down Sony and propping up Microsoft as the good guy. That's high comedy. Sony has designed many things that we take for granted today, such as the trinitron technology that runs most of the CRTs in the world. Microsoft has done good things and bad things as well. It's all relative, and I think people forget the history of things and the context

People have a short term memory on things. Gamers themselves are very short sighted. Everything is always the now. The reason everyone is "tearing down Sony" recently is because Sony has royally fucked up the passed 6 months going back to the rootkit fiasco. And for the most part MS has been pretty clean with the occassional idiotic statement (see BC).

[Saladin]

Forget this crap and lets have blizzard give us Diablo 3 already. If you realy want good art direction anyone can clearly see Diablo 2 is still one of the most interesting looking games ever made (even if it is in 2d).

Haven't almost all of the Diablo 2 guys subsequently left Blizzard? I know the lead designer at least is off doing Gods & Heroes.

[Saladin]

Now Mike,

That's not fair. That game was created a LONG time ago. It was designed to run on a wide range of PCs. I believe the first versions could even be played without 3D cards. There was no cell processor back then.

EQ on release required a 3D card.

[Kamalot]

EQ on release required a 3D card.
Cool. Thanks!

[Pumped'Up]

The character models look OK but the environment looks terribly boring. I hope the final version is nevertheless vastly improved. But the Untold Legends franchise has never been a system seller so I'm not expecting much from this next gen title. Next.

[Borys]

The general consensus is that it looks shitty, I agree with that.

Maybe it plays well?

[Kamalot]

The general consensus is that it looks shitty, I agree with that.

Maybe it plays well?It better. It uses anoter button for combat over the PSP version. That means you can use 2 buttons to fight with instead of just one! Gameplay innovation at its finest. :rolleyes:

[Borys]

It better. It uses anoter button for combat over the PSP version. That means you can use 2 buttons to fight with instead of just one! Gameplay innovation at its finest. :rolleyes:

Heh, and what about motion sensor? Does it use it?

[Reanimated]

http://www.wii60.com/uploads/308.gif


Let's hope so!

[bapenguin]

http://www.wii60.com/uploads/308.gif


Let's hope so!

*shudders* - God...I feel so bad for that guy. he looked so uncomfortable during it.

[Reanimated]

There's another gif of the plane he was controlling going wild and crashing into shit, but I couldn't find it. It's in all of those Wii60 videos. Hilarious. I can't believe they even showed that shit.

[Kamalot]

There's another gif of the plane he was controlling going wild and crashing into shit, but I couldn't find it. It's in all of those Wii60 videos. Hilarious. I can't believe they even showed that shit.
Gawd, I was so embarassed for everyone in that show (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYMxpcYrYZE&search=sony%20press).

[Achilles]

So there you have it, Square developer quoted as saying that FFXIII is on the PS3 specifically because of blu-ray and the ps3 having better shaders "by far".Ah, you are correct. The one they were being ambiguous about was Versus. So FFXIII is a lock for the PS3. I still don’t buy the argument that a game could only come on blu-ray, and not be split onto multiple DVDs. And I doubt the PS3 can do shaders that are a ton better than the 360. You’d figure Carmack would have discovered that if it were true. In general I question that quoted source, since it looks like a pro-sony collection of "developer" quotes, and I have no idea how authentic it is. The Press conference did say that FFXIII was being developed exclusive to the PS3 though.

[Yeti2005]

Did anyone download the videos (IGN is one source)? The game looks like it animates ok but it seemed very repetitive without a lot of variety. Then again it is probably still early. Definitely doesn't seem next-gen though.

[Mr.Condescension]

Ah, you are correct. The one they were being ambiguous about was Versus. So FFXIII is a lock for the PS3. I still don’t buy the argument that a game could only come on blu-ray, and not be split onto multiple DVDs. And I doubt the PS3 can do shaders that are a ton better than the 360. You’d figure Carmack would have discovered that if it were true. In general I question that quoted source, since it looks like a pro-sony collection of "developer" quotes, and I have no idea how authentic it is. The Press conference did say that FFXIII was being developed exclusive to the PS3 though.

Ok, how about this one?

Assassin's Creed guys (Nicholas Cantin and Alex Drouin). It's in Dutch, so translation mine:

OPM: How's your experience with the storage media of the PS3, the HDD and the BluRay disc? And do you have any comparable experience with HD-DVD technology?

M.M.: Our focus is 100% BluRay, so I cannot compare with HD-DVD. I can only say that the new BluRay disc format is truly awesome. The capacity is immense, and the Data Transfer Rate is way beyond what we are used to. And that's really important, because Data Streaming (OPMED: where the console constantly loads new data from disc) is truly the only way to push next-gen games to the limit. The Playstation 3 HDD is something that we have so far given less attention to, because it hasn't been certain all that long yet that it will be standard on every console. Decreasing load-times by copying a part of the game to the HDD is one possibility, though it doesn't matter all that much for a streaming game like ours. But there are tons of other applications, such as the possibility to as it were record your whole game, to be able to watch a replay of it later on. We intend to use the HD optimally, but how, I can't tell yet currently.

Also interesting is this question:

OPM: What do you think about the performance of the graphics chip, the Nvidea RSX?

M.M.: The RSX-chip is also a beast. Not only is it incredibly fast, but just like in the PS2 you can have each Cell-core cooperate with the RSX independently. Other graphics chips also have decent Noraml Mapping- and Shader-capabilities, but RSX adds a lot of additional specialised filters and possibilities, leading to fabulous results in the graphics department. And what is really convenient is that Nvidia has been a market-leader for years, and everyone knows the technology and way of thinking through-and-through. This decreases the learning process considerably.

I'm sensing a theme, here. In fact, the only person anyone ever quotes seems to be Carmack, and he, in fact says that the PS3 is probably a little more powerful but harder to program for. It doesn't seem like he's contradicting all these other developers.

[Achilles]

Ok, how about this one?

I'm sensing a theme, here. In fact, the only person anyone ever quotes seems to be Carmack, and he, in fact says that the PS3 is probably a little more powerful but harder to program for. It doesn't seem like he's contradicting all these other developers.Also interesting quotes, and far more official. However the transfer rate on the 2x Blu ray drive is stated as almost half of what it is for a 12x DVD drive by Sony's website. So it’s possible that they’re talking about it in comparison to the PS2’s transfer rate (hence the "what we're used to"). And really the difference between I think a 1x DVD in the PS2, and the 2x Blu-ray drive in the PS3 is huge.

I don’t know what kind of specialized shaders the RSX adds. The guy on Assassin’s Creed seems to think they’re very good, but again, he’s not comparing it to the 360.

Compare the PS3 to the PS2, or the Wii or Xbox, and all of that stuff makes sense. Compare it to the 360 and it just doesn't make sense. You can look at the transfer rate of the 12x 360 DVD drive vs the PS2's 2x Blu-ray drive and see that it's slower.

[Mr.Condescension]

Also interesting quotes, and far more official. However the transfer rate on the 2x Blu ray drive is stated as almost half of what it is for a 12x DVD drive by Sony's website. So it’s possible that they’re talking about it in comparison to the PS2’s transfer rate. And really the difference between I think a 1x DVD in the PS2, and the 2x Blu-ray drive in the PS3 is huge.

I don’t know what kind of specialized shaders the RSX adds. The guy on Assassin’s Creed seems to think they’re very good, but again, he’s not comparing it to the 360.

Compare the PS3 to the PS2, or the Wii or Xbox, and all of that stuff makes sense. Compare it to the 360 and it just doesn't make sense. You can look at the transfer rate of the 12x 360 DVD drive vs the PS2's 2x Blu-ray drive and see that it's slower.

I'd have to drum up another article, but the difference between DVD and Blu-Ray that is important to note is that blu-ray has a constant read speed anywhere on the disc. DVD has a variable speed based on where the data is stored on the disc. A developer notes in some interview I read (again, I'll have to look it up when I can) that in order to use the maximum speed of the dvd you have to order your data on the disc very painstakingly, and even then it isn't even possible if you've got it particularly full. Blu-ray saves them the trouble of moving their data around on the disc surface area, as well as giving you a dependable measurement you can actually keep in mind to code with. Since the 12x DVD player has a slower read speed on parts of the discs, only that speed can be counted on realistically, hence blu-ray being quite a bit faster for streaming data.

Also, in terms of the RSX, no he doesn't state the 360 gpu *specifically*, but he does say other cards, and I think it's pretty obvious he's referring to newer cards, not the one from the ps2.

[Uberdrake]

This is crap. Next gen my ass.

[Kamalot]

I'd have to drum up another article, but the difference between DVD and Blu-Ray that is important to note is that blu-ray has a constant read speed anywhere on the disc. DVD has a variable speed based on where the data is stored on the disc. A developer notes in some interview I read (again, I'll have to look it up when I can) that in order to use the maximum speed of the dvd you have to order your data on the disc very painstakingly, and even then it isn't even possible if you've got it particularly full. Blu-ray saves them the trouble of moving their data around on the disc surface area, as well as giving you a dependable measurement you can actually keep in mind to code with. Since the 12x DVD player has a slower read speed on parts of the discs, only that speed can be counted on realistically, hence blu-ray being quite a bit faster for streaming data.



Yes, DVDs are read at a variable speed. Did you also know that the constat speed of a Bluray disc still reads slower than the slowest speed in a DVDx12's range? Here is a good article (http://www.gamespot.com/pages/profile/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=23916169&user=skektek) you should read explaining why PS3 will be slower to load the same amount of data when compared to the 360.

Here is one of the graphs in the article:
http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/5399/12xdvdvsbdrs0cg.png
This image shows the speed of data transfer of a Bluray disc of various speeds. You can see the speeds on the bottom axis. The horizontal green and red lines respectively represent the maximum and minimum read speed of a 12x DVD-ROM.

The graph clearly shows that a 2x Bluray is as fast as the SLOWEST possible speed of the Xbox 360's 12x DVD-ROM.

Yes, developers can optimize load times by moving the most frequently accessed pieces of data to the outter edge of a DVD, thereby obtaining speeds closer to the maximum read speed of the drive. PS3 devs won't be able to do that. All of their data will be read off the disc at the same speed, the same as the slowest, least optimized portions of a 360 game disc possible.


Also, in terms of the RSX, no he doesn't state the 360 gpu *specifically*, but he does say other cards, and I think it's pretty obvious he's referring to newer cards, not the one from the ps2.How do you draw, "pretty obvious" out of thin air like that?

Edit: I'm looking at that graphic and I noticed that even if Sony put a 3X Bluray in the PS3, the Xbox 360 still has faster read speeds for optimized code. It would take a 4X Bluray drive to beat out the 360's simple-yet-effective DVD drive.

[Mr.Condescension]

Yes, DVDs are read at a variable speed. Did you also know that the constat speed of a Bluray disc still reads slower than the slowest speed in a DVDx12's range?

You should probably look at your graph before you post it. You'll notice that the box for read speed for the blu-ray is above the line for the low end of DVD. Also, if you follow your own link and see the other graph in the article the difference is larger. Not huge, but larger. He also states:

Another
important note about CAV drives (e.g. DVD) is that because information
on a disc is written from the inside to the outside the X rating is
never realized unless the disc is entirely full.

Example:

The maximum read speed of a disc that is only half full on a
12x drive is only 12MBps compared to the drives maximum of 16.5MBps.

Oops, you caught me. It is only possible to rearrange the data in the inner part of the disc you're using, so the read speed of the drive will be dependent on the amount of space the game uses on the disk. Ain't that a bitch. Let's hope HALO takes alot more disc space this next time. Also, your source is having trouble doing simple math. His MBps numbers for a 2x Blu-Ray drive are off.

In addition the article mentions nothing whatsoever of seek time, and if you've ever actually worked with computer hardware you'd know that when accessing information (unless it's 1 file) the read speed of the drive is rarely ever the bottleneck. The largest advantage of CAV drives (blu-ray) is that their rotation speed never needs to be changed, so their seek speeds are much faster.

Let's add to all that the little fact that DVD drives only read at the listed speeds on single layer discs, so any disc over 3.5GB will run at less than 12x speed. For an example of this fact, check out this review and look up others if you like:

http://www.cdrlabs.com/reviews/index.php?reviewid=285&page=Features

A 12x DVD drive runs at 8x or less on a dual layer disc. That makes any game over 3.5 gigs run on average slower than a 2x blu-ray drive.

So, to sum up...

1. The 12x drive doesn't get anywhere near its peak read speed in normal use due to the ordering of data from inside to outside.

2. Data Seek on blu-ray is much lower due to not having to spin up or down when moving over the disc area, which is a huge thing when reading data.

3. A 12x DVD drive reads a dual layer disc at 8x or less.

All these facts point to the drive in the PS3 being faster than the Xbox 360.

How do you draw, "pretty obvious" out of thin air like that?

Um, because he says:

Other graphics chips also have decent Noraml Mapping- and Shader-capabilities, but RSX adds a lot of additional specialised filters and possibilities

Does the PS2 have Normal Mapping and Shader capabilities? Does the original Xbox? Seems pretty clear to me he's talking about current tech and current gen cards. Anyway, the Square dev said the same thing specifically saying the PS3 had better shaders than the Xbox 360.

So, yeah, the PS3 has better shaders than the Xbox 360, and yes, the 2x blu-ray drive is faster than the 12x DVD.

I don't know why everyone just posts these same articles and graphs from months ago without actually doing any research themselves.

[Kamalot]

Thanks for pulling out the quote about normal-mapping. It puts his comments in context.

As for the DVD speed, nothing says you have to start writing the disc in the least-optimal spot. Devs these days put the most frequently loaded parts of a game in the fastest sections of the disc. This isn't rocket science. Variable-speed drives have been out for a while, dating back to CDs. Developers have had more than 12 years to learn how to take advantage of CDs, optimizing for load times. In fact, some games, like God of War, have few loading screens at all even on the slow PS2 drive.

As for seek time, games don't have to jump all over the disc in order to load. Files necessary to load a level are near each other on the disc. Like I said, devs have beeon doing this for a long time now.

You know there was a time when games came on multiple CDs. It wasn't a big deal. Every 30-hours of gameplay and you'd have to put in another disc. <old-timer-joke>I played Ultima IV on my C64 where we had to insert a different floppy disc whenever you went in a town or dungeon! Whippersnappers!</> Seriously, there are many things holding back gameplay, and storage space isn't one of them.

[Kamalot]

You'll notice that the box for read speed for the blu-ray is above the line for the low end of DVD.
You are right. A 2X Bluray drive, like the one promised for the PS3, is slightly faster than the slowest possible read speed of a 12X DVD-ROM, like the one in the Xbox 360.

http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/5399/12xdvdvsbdrs0cg.png

[Mr.Condescension]

As for the DVD speed, nothing says you have to start writing the disc in the least-optimal spot.

Actually, all CDs are mastered from center to outside. It's the way CDs are made. There is no way around it. You can order your data in the burn area you are alloted, but you can't start from the outside and move in or anything like that. So, yes, DVD does indeed take a hit on the read speed no matter how they order the information.

You're never going to sustain the max speed on any game. In addition to this if they do order data near eachother for different levels, then you can't count on the same speed from the drive for each level (eg. early levels will load faster than late ones). That is another benefit to developers in that they have reliable speed to work with in timing their loads.

You are right. A 2X Bluray drive, like the one promised for the PS3, is slightly faster than the slowest possible read speed of a 12X DVD-ROM, like the one in the Xbox 360.

How convenient that you don't comment on the fact that DVD drives read data much slower on dual layer discs.

The end result of the variable speed from data ordering on DVD and DVDs reading 1/2-2/3 as fast on dual layered discs is that a 2x blu-ray drive is overall a faster drive than a 12x DVD drive.

[Kamalot]

You sleep less than I do! :D

[Kamalot]

...you can't count on the same speed from the drive for each level (eg. early levels will load faster than late ones). That is another benefit to developers in that they have reliable speed to work with in timing their loads.
What you can rely on is that, the majority of time you read data on the 360, it will be faster than reading the same amount of data on the PS3. :eek:

[Mr.Condescension]

What you can rely on is that, the majority of time you read data on the 360, it will be faster than reading the same amount of data on the PS3. :eek:

Actually, what all this means is that the larger the game the slower it will run on the 360. The 360 can get faster speeds than the PS3 on a DVD-5 only, and only when there is very little data on the disk. If the game needs a DVD-9 the blu-ray player is always faster loading the same data. These aren't opinons I'm pulling out of nowhere. All these facts are available in the links I've already posted.

So the only hope a 360 has of matching the drive speed of a PS3 is by making very, very small games. Smaller games FTW!

(btw, Oblivion would load slower on the xbox 360 than the PS3, for instance, since it's more that 3.5 gigs...and no, I don't sleep much)

[Kamalot]

So the only hope a 360 has of matching the drive speed of a PS3 is by making very, very small games. Smaller games FTW!You may be right. That seems to be the direction Wii is headed. I'm cool with smaller games if they are fun.

Fun FTW!

[Zechs01]

Wow this video looks like it was made by a 2 year old fanboy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lz5wBkQyXkc

[Kamalot]

Wow this video looks like it was made by a 2 year old fanboy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lz5wBkQyXkc
That is a funny, funny video. I like watching game videos on Youtube. You don't get the graphical fidelity so the gameplay shows through, Gameplay on this looks assy, at best.

[Zechs01]

mabe so but WTF how can someone say its a "Flagship" title i think a "Flagship" title would be like resistance or FFXIII

[Mr.Condescension]

You may be right. That seems to be the direction Wii is headed. I'm cool with smaller games if they are fun.

Fun FTW!

Now that is a sentiment I can agree with. I'm cool with any size game if it's fun. I like large and small games myself, so I'll make sure to get the system(s) that can play both well, whichever those turn out to be.

[Achilles]

Does the PS2 have Normal Mapping and Shader capabilities? Does the original Xbox? Seems pretty clear to me he's talking about current tech and current gen cards. Anyway, the Square dev said the same thing specifically saying the PS3 had better shaders than the Xbox 360.The developer probably has experience on the PC and he's talking about PC cards he worked with. Do you think this particular developer has as much experience with the 360's GPU as the RSX so he can make a correct comparison? Also Assassin's Creed is coming out for both 360 and PS3. They just didn't talk about it at E3 this year, maybe because they talked about it last year. But at GDC it was running on a 360 dev kit.

Edit: Yes the original Xbox does have normal mapping and shader capabilities, they were used extensively in Halo2, they just didn't have a lot of texture memory or good enough fill rate to make as good use of them. The Game Cube could also do limited bump mapping.

[Kamalot]

mabe so but WTF how can someone say its a "Flagship" title i think a "Flagship" title would be like resistance or FFXIII
I believe a flagship is a ship that is flying the commander's flag. In this case, Untold Legends is created by Sony, the commander of the PS3 forces. Final Fantasy and Resistance are created by 3rd parties.

[Mr.Condescension]

The developer probably has experience on the PC and he's talking about PC cards he worked with. Do you think this particular developer has as much experience with the 360's GPU as the RSX so he can make a correct comparison? Also Assassin's Creed is coming out for both 360 and PS3. They just didn't talk about it at E3 this year, maybe because they talked about it last year. But at GDC it was running on a 360 dev kit.


Yes, the Ubisoft interview did not specifically compare the 360 and the PS3, but the Square one did. We've been over this already.

As for assassin's creed, please, show me one single solitary link that doesn't say "rumor" in it. Any reputable media source has Assassin's creed only slated for the PS3, and the team working on it says they're 100% working on blu-ray. Maybe there will be a port, but there is nothing but rumor and speculation so far.

[Achilles]

Yes, the Ubisoft interview did not specifically compare the 360 and the PS3, but the Square one did. We've been over this already.

As for assassin's creed, please, show me one single solitary link that doesn't say "rumor" in it. Any reputable media source has Assassin's creed only slated for the PS3, and the team working on it says they're 100% working on blu-ray. Maybe there will be a port, but there is nothing but rumor and speculation so far.I’m not going to dissect all the quotes on that forum post-looking translated article. I just don’t put much stock in them based on everything that’s being said there and the venue. It’s a PS3 site and there is no reference for the quotes like when they were said. They could easily be manipulated. And at this point it's the only thing that's saying that.

There was that bit in there with some Enchant Arm guy saying how multiple DVDs would ruin the user experience. It didn’t ruin it for FFVII, FFVIII, or FFIX did it? But that's back on Blu-Ray.

For Assassin's Creed. It’s not an exclusive, feel free not to believe me though since I can’t find any non-360 site articles to back up my claim.

[Mr.Condescension]

I’m not going to dissect all the quotes on that forum post-looking translated article. I just don’t put much stock in them based on everything that’s being said there and the venue. It’s a PS3 site and there is no reference for the quotes like when they were said. They could easily be manipulated. And at this point it's the only thing that's saying that.

If you don't believe the source, there's no point in discussing it. You can choose to not believe anything you like. The starbreeze developer, for instance, is from an Official Xbox Magazine podcast. Believe what you will.

For Assassin's Creed. It’s not an exclusive, feel free not to believe me though since I can’t find any non-360 site articles to back up my claim.

How about this:

Assassin's Creed is coming on PS3 and at this stage other platforms are unconfirmed

the link (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/5701064934/p/2)

No one at ubisoft has said that it is being planned for any platform other than the PS3. The argument that "they don't say it's not coming to other platforms, therefore it is" doesn't make any sense. I haven't specifically said I am not a girl, therefore I am a girl? That doesn't hold water.

Also, the concept that ubisoft doesn't make exclusive games is shot out of the water by red steel and a few other games that have been mentioned in previous threads. The truth of the matter is we have no reason to assume anything but what Ubisoft has specifically said. Anything else is a rumor, pure and simple. Ubisoft could decide to bring it out on the 360 in the future, but that's pure speculation with no basis in fact.

[Kamalot]

Wow this video looks like it was made by a 2 year old fanboy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lz5wBkQyXkc
You know what? I showed this video to a friend and he brought up the fact that Untold Legends looks like it plays a lot like Project Hammer, except you don't get to swing the Wiimote around like a giant hammer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_eaJrCB2w4&search=project%20hammer

:D Just a funny notion :D