PS3 hardware slow and broken? Evidence in words and pictures

[Phanto]

From the Inquirer.net comes the sad news that the Playstation 3's Cell Processor may not live up to the hype. You can read the whole article HERE (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=32171).

Then came the horrible news, RSX appears to be limited to setting up 275 Million triangles/second, anemic compared to the 500+ million in XBox360. When asked about this apparent thumping dished out by MS, the reply from one notable ISV relations boffin was a terse 'What a Piece of Junk'. Talk about a steak in the heart.

Half the triangle setup capability in the PS3, could things get worse? Yes, far far worse, how about another disparity of three orders of magnitude? No, I am not joking, looking at Sony's own figures, Cell appears to be pretty badly broken.If this is true Sony could be in trouble..

[Kefkataran]

Wow. I suggest everyone read the full article and check out those pictures. That's pretty damning evidence, and NOT good for Sony. If this is even half-true, this could throw Sony way out of the game for many devs.

[Curi]

When asked about this apparent thumping dished out by MS, the reply from one notable ISV relations boffin was a terse 'What a Piece of Junk'. Talk about a steak in the heart.


Mmmmm... steak...

[Paranoia]

Come on, PS3 won't suck. This is the only console in the world that can do the patented Real Time Weapon Damage For Massive Damage.

[Deathbane27]

Talk about a steak in the heart.

STAKE!

Newbmuffins, sheesh.

Anyway...

<Nelson Laugh>

[Tyrant]

I like how the slide say's "No, this isn't a typo..." with those omnious ellipses. Given how ridulously low that read speed is, why wouldn't the engineers take a few steps back and change up the console so that it doesn't end up crippling itself? This is kind of like the PS2's lack of hardware antialiasing, albeit with potentially bigger consequences.

[Siraris]

A good friend of mine works for SCEE and he says this is complete bollocks.

Woops, hit submit by accident.

He didn't go into detail about exact numbers, but the RSX and Cell are anything from crippled. Just because The Inquirer known to be the most unreliable site on the net for gaming news, posts one picture from Devstation, doesn't mean they know what they are talking about.

Interesting thing he told me was, the video card in the original X-Box was almost completely closed off by Nvidia, so developers didn't have access to much of the power of the card. The RSX is much much better, and developers have almost full access to the card.

We know the RSX and the Cell are beasts, there are even multiple articles about the sheer power of the Cell from outside of Sony (The article from Berkley, the treasury departments statements etc).

Does anyone really think that STI would design this system architecture, pour in years of work and hundreds of millions of dollars, just to have it be a piece of shit? Do you really think that Sony would release a system a year after the 360 that has HALF the traingle fillrate? Please.

[ddbrown30]

Hah hah, steak. Fucking retards.

[Demize99]

Until Sony actually shows thier console isn't a POS people are going to assume its a POS, due to strong x360 and wii market precences.

[RMan]

Well, although the other numbers might be really bad, commenting on vertex processing ability while not mentioning pixel processing ability is pretty shoddy. Vertex processing has not been a significant bottleneck for some time, if it had 10% better pixel processing ability while half the vertex processing, it’d still be better. Do the math, that’s still like 4 vertices per pixel at 60FPS, whoever commented on it being crap needs to actually think about what it means rather than just say “It’s less, it’s crap”.

[Spiffae]

This is the inquirer, half fact and half fiction. Who knows what the truth is, but I'd say don't start worrying just yet. I am no fan of the PS3, but I have been led astray by the Inquirer more than once before.

[askheaves]

That is un-freaking-believable. Hate to pile on Sony, but if this is corroborated and verified and such... this is really bad. It's like operating a computer without any L1 cache and it'll pretty much render the whole "we've got 7 CPUs" thing worthless. I don't even think you can load up enough instructions at that rate to keep the CPUs busy, much less data for them to operate on.

I'm still semi-stumped as to the real implications of this, but instinctually I can tell you that it looks bad... if true.

[ÜberJumper]

I CALL UPON THE POWER OF CARMACK TO EXPLAIN.

Or something.

[Kefkataran]

Yeah, I'm still leery of trusting the source. Perhaps even more so because of just how crippling this would be if true...

[Goronmon]

I call BS on this one. It just doesn't make any sense at all.

[mightbe]

My solemn plea to sony, once again:
"Just keep making PS2 games for now, release your next console when it's ready."

[Kefkataran]

I call BS on this one. It just doesn't make any sense at all.

Care to elaborate?

[Johan]

I'm no Sony fan (I'm not a fan of any of them, honestly...MS monopolizes the OS world, Sony wants to rule the next-gen BRay world, and Nintendo...well, they're just eccentric and contrarian)...but this could be BAD news for the gaming industry. Multi-platform titles typically are developed to meet the specs of the lowest common denominator, so problems with one system will affect the quality of games on the others. This is bad news, if it holds accurate.

[overdrivechao]

"Someone screwed up so badly it looks like it will relegate the console to second place behind the 360. All the devs I talked to were lukewarm on the 360 architecture but universally negative on the PS3."-- quoted from article.

If not for the technical jargon, his post sounds a lot like the fanboys on EvAv! I dunno, but I gotta wonder how MGS4 outshines almost every 360 game if it's so crippled. The realtime demo running unoptimized on the dev kit looked pretty spectacular, so I'll read this the other way...

360 devs must be really lazy! They have a machine that is capable of so much more than the PS3 evidently and we still have Amped 3, THAW, Outfit, and slow moving animations in Table tennis and Fight night. Gee, you would think they could do so much better....

[Goronmon]

Care to elaborate?Well, my first reaction is...I really doubt Sony would produce a system thats as crippled as the article seems to say it is. So, IMO, the info is either wrong,its impact is exagerrated, or it was taken out of context with the later prolly being more true.

Secondly...unless I am reading this incorrectly, the information came from someone the author was sitting next to on the plane? Sounds a little sketchy to me to say the least.

[mixuk]

I gotta wonder how MGS4 outshines almost every 360 game if it's so crippled. The realtime demo running unoptimized on the dev kit looked pretty spectacular, so I'll read this the other way...

Rendering a cutscene realtime isn't even close to an actual game with physics, collisions, sound, animation and AI.

[RMan]

Rendering a cutscene realtime isn't even close to an actual game with physics, collisions, sound, animation and AI.
I don't think you know what you're talking about. Assuming that they prerecorded all these other things, like collisions and physics is crazy, it’d be more work to do it that way. The only thing that is likely unused in this type of thing is AI, but the vast majority of what taxes a game system is clearly in use in their demonstration.

[Zeal]

Arnold: It has to end here.

[Kefkataran]

Well, my first reaction is...I really doubt Sony would produce a system thats as crippled as the article seems to say it is. So, IMO, the info is either wrong,its impact is exagerrated, or it was taken out of context with the later prolly being more true.

Secondly...unless I am reading this incorrectly, the information came from someone the author was sitting next to on the plane? Sounds a little sketchy to me to say the least.

Fair enough. I suspect you may be correct.

[Borys]

Now it's your chance Bill Gates!

Attack its weak point for massive damage!

[nonchalance]

I'm on the Goronmon bandwagon on this one.
I'm reasonably anti-Sony, but they're far from technological retards.

[mixuk]

I don't think you know what you're talking about. Assuming that they prerecorded all these other things, like collisions and physics is crazy, it’d be more work to do it that way. The only thing that is likely unused in this type of thing is AI, but the vast majority of what taxes a game system is clearly in use in their demonstration.

You don't need a sophisticated sound system, animation system, any collisions nor physics for playing a pre-recorded animation.

It sounds like you don't know what you are talking about.

[sTubbs]

Interesting, but as a hardline skeptic and cynic my principles presently bar me from believing this. As much as I feel like Sony needs to get thumped this generation, I simply can not imagine them crippling the PS3 so severely.

[Wonka]

This seems to be a bit of an exxageration, but it could concievably be partially true. Odds are that even if the article was 100% true, the games would still look pretty good anyways.

But even if the PS3 was actually horribly crippled, I don't think it would matter one bit.

I believe that even a horribly crippled PS3 would still be fairly powerful compared to last gen., and would satisfy the people who want their next FF or MGS fix. And even if it actually WAS crippled and weaker then the 360, the fans would still believe that it was more powerful than the 360, and that their games looked better as a result. People (almost ALL people) believe what they want to and just assemble evidence that supports their cause until they fell better. Almost nobody looks 1st at evidence and then asks what the evidence points to. So it really doesn't MATTER if the PS3 is crippled. People will buy it anyways and they will LOVE it.

All the physical evidence points to the PS3 and the 360 being fairly comparable, but by the time the PS3 launches confusion will reign, and people will assume that it MUST be more powerful because it's coming out a year later...

If MS and Nintendo want to take marketshare from Sony, they will have to do it by having exclusive titles and content that are so great that people simply cannot ignore them. Having a just as good system that is out for a year longer than your competitor or that costs a lot less helps, but is not enough on its own. The PS3 will sell well for a good while by virtue of its name alone.

The 1st several million PS3's would STILL sell EVEN IF they were just empty boxes, and all the indications are that Sony is aware of this fact.

[Morratut]

"Someone screwed up so badly it looks like it will relegate the console to second place behind the 360. All the devs I talked to were lukewarm on the 360 architecture but universally negative on the PS3."-- quoted from article.

If not for the technical jargon, his post sounds a lot like the fanboys on EvAv! I dunno, but I gotta wonder how MGS4 outshines almost every 360 game if it's so crippled. The realtime demo running unoptimized on the dev kit looked pretty spectacular, so I'll read this the other way...



The MGS4 wasn't in game footage. It was supposed to be produced by the in game engine yes but you still didn't see any actual in game footage. It was at the most a series of realtime cutscenes. Plus Konami said it could've been done the 360 anyway.

I'm not sure on this one tbh. I don't think Sony could cock up so badly.

[MajSheppard]

check the history, sony has always underproduced the other systems. PSX was weaker then DC and N64, PS2 was the worst of that bunch even though it was the most expensive(tie). This doesnt surprise me at all that sony once again provides something that is overpowered but poorly designed so it underproduces its potiental. the PS2 coulda been the strongest of the three if it didn't have bottlenecks and a lack of ram to back it up.

Conversely Gamecube though the weakest hardware could and did look like the best because of a efficent design.

I think this is very good news for the gaming world in general. I hope people learn that no one is flawless in these console wars and stop being fanboys. Get what you want people.

I just hope that also allows everyone to get the full otu of their systems. I luckly already had a box before the cube lost the take two sports games because other people didn't like the cube like I did. I only hope no one suffers like that again.

[Ravenlock]

Hah hah, steak. Fucking retards.People on the Internet love to claim that spelling, punctuation and grammar don't matter because they don't want to be bothered to watch what they say and how they say it. But honestly, it is difficult to take someone seriously when they can't differentiate between a sharpened piece of wood and a chunk of meat.

I long ago gave up wondering whether the Internet was killing the English language (the answer, I think, is yes, sadly with the assistance of our public school system), but I wouldn't have predicted it would be so amusing to watch. :rolleyes:

[KidCactus]

I long ago gave up wondering whether the Internet was killing the English language (the answer, I think, is yes, sadly with the assistance of our public school system), but I wouldn't have predicted it would be so amusing to watch. :rolleyes:
Much like driving by a car crash.

[DeadPixel]

How many of you would go work for SONY if you were offered a decent salary position?

[ProfPuppet]

Now it's your chance Bill Gates!

Attack its weak point for massive damage!

Sony casts Phoenix Down: entrenched market fanbase.
Sony casts FFXIVIX-MGSV-mediasplosion.
Sony begins summoning Ken Katuragi.

The source seems suspect, and I'm getting a bit tired of the 'X platform/title will fail/be crap because a talking unicorn whispered it to me in the darkened corridors of my mind as I slept'. It's like the fan-troll Sword of Damocles hanging over us with these systems not out yet and everyone pre-emptively bickering about their specs and whatnot.

[Deathbane27]

How many of you would go work for SONY if you were offered a decent salary position?

Hell, yes. Sabotage ftw. Or I could just tell people that's what I'm doing.

[Zawath]

I don't think you know what you're talking about. Assuming that they prerecorded all these other things, like collisions and physics is crazy, it’d be more work to do it that way. The only thing that is likely unused in this type of thing is AI, but the vast majority of what taxes a game system is clearly in use in their demonstration.

It was basically just an animated movie using ingame models and rendered using the devkit. Toystory didn't use physics and neither did the MGS4 video.

[Heretic Machine]

How many of you would go work for SONY if you were offered a decent salary position?

I'd work for pretty much any game company, if given a decent amount of money to do so. Unfortunetly, I'm not qualified for anything but low-level grunt work.

[CapnAJ]

Microsoft's elaborate plan to conquer the digital world will soon be complete, with their bad press scheme now working wonders on the PS3 the XBOX 2 will rule the world and they can finally start charging profit making prices for the hardware they sell.

Seriously though, I'm going to wait until the PS3 is out and I can see for myself if it's any good and more importantly if the games are good. Screw fantastic graphics, I want gameplay!

[nonchalance]

How many of you would go work for SONY if you were offered a decent salary position?

Rather work for Sony than Nike.
Or MS, for that matter.

[Savok]

You know there's plenty of real information that makes Sony look bad, could we steer clear of the fake shit please? Or at least wait until it's posted on a site that has some degree of credibility (keep it up and this site will lose what little it has left, I say that with love for this place).

[rjcc]

%1 - the inq has 0 credibility.

#2 - from what I hear, it's actually true and the slide is authentic (incl. the "(no this isn't a typo)"), but it doesn't at all make the PS3 crippled the way they indicate.

[Arnage]

Whoever commented on it being crap needs to actually think about what it means rather than just say “It’s less, it’s crap”.

I have to agree with RMan here, complaining about the triangle rate is nonsence when you only look at the number without knowing what it means.

The Xenos has a unified architecture, while the RSX uses more conservative seperate pixel- and vertexshaders. So the RSX may "only" be able to render half the trianglecount, but it can do so with complex pixelshaders on all those triangles, while the Xenos can only reach it's maximum when it doesn't have to render any pixelshaders.

Does that prove either one is better then the other? No, not without knowing more about the chips. But it does prove that those triangle rates can not be compared at all because of significant architecture differences.

So please people inform yourself before throwing crap...

[TrackZero]

Wow. I suggest everyone read the full article and check out those pictures. That's pretty damning evidence, and NOT good for Sony. If this is even half-true, this could throw Sony way out of the game for many devs.

Very. Though I wish he'd run a spellcheck on his article before he posted it. That damn "steak" is going to make this far more contested than it would have been otherwise.

[Buddha Lotus]

Just a question with a preface.

I love EvilAvatar.com. It is the first site I check in the morning and the last before I log off.

I have seen over the years how pro-XBOX ea.com is.. but where in the hell do you guys find these anti-PS3 articles? You have to actively be searching these out to find them.

I never read any of these bad PS3 articles on any other gaming news site.

I doubt the credibility of most of them.

[TrackZero]

Just a question with a preface.

I love EvilAvatar.com. It is the first site I check in the morning and the last before I log off.

I have seen over the years how pro-XBOX ea.com is.. but where in the hell do you guys find these anti-PS3 articles? You have to actively be searching these out to find them.

I never read any of these bad PS3 articles on any other gaming news site.

I doubt the credibility of most of them.

Well, to be a little fair, I'm sure many big news sites receive promo material and other exclusives that would be at risk if they were posting anti-(insert console here) news all the time. EA just posts them like they see them, it's just whatever people submit as stories. Find some anti-360 ones and feel free to submit them.

[bapenguin]

Nothing to see here...this is the Inq.

[phantomhitman]

A good friend of mine works for SCEE and he says this is complete bollocks.

After I read the word bollocks I stopped reading. The use of the word bollocks is usually followed by British lies and deceit. :p

[Zeal]

Just a question with a preface.

I love EvilAvatar.com. It is the first site I check in the morning and the last before I log off.

I have seen over the years how pro-XBOX ea.com is.. but where in the hell do you guys find these anti-PS3 articles? You have to actively be searching these out to find them.

I never read any of these bad PS3 articles on any other gaming news site.

I doubt the credibility of most of them.
This is where EA's power lies.

[schnodder]

Let's wait and see ... but the price, man!!!

[phantomhitman]

I have seen over the years how pro-XBOX ea.com is.. but where in the hell do you guys find these anti-PS3 articles? You have to actively be searching these out to find them.

did you see the xbox 360, and its launch woes, posted 10 times a day when it came out? Everything negative that could be found was posted. From japanese system failure, to dumbasses scratching their discs, to overheatings, to rings of death, to lack of games, and lack of systems. Those are just a few of issues that were posted AT LEAST ONCE A DAY.

[Reanimated]

Show of hands - who's actually paying 600 dollars for this gimped POS?

[StGeorge]

If not for the technical jargon, his post sounds a lot like the fanboys on EvAv! I dunno, but I gotta wonder how MGS4 outshines almost every 360 game if it's so crippled.

Don't be naive, everything you'v seen on the PS3 this year short of the Gran Turismo 4 HD demo, the card game demo and the karaoke game demo were all pre-rendered FMV. MGS4 trailer is unasashed pre-rendered FMV. Even when they say "real-time", they mean the pre-rendered FMV is in real-time.

[SexualChoc]

Oh wow. Sony saying they have the most powerful console on the market. That really puts a new light on Sony. Though all the statistics make a promising read, it's the games that make the console, so hopefully it won't matter.

[StGeorge]

Very. Though I wish he'd run a spellcheck on his article before he posted it. That damn "steak" is going to make this far more contested than it would have been otherwise.

Explain how spell-check would have caught that? Is steak not a word in your version of English?

[bapenguin]

Don't be naive, everything you'v seen on the PS3 this year short of the Gran Turismo 4 HD demo, the card game demo and the karaoke game demo were all pre-rendered FMV. MGS4 trailer is unasashed pre-rendered FMV. Even when they say "real-time", they mean the pre-rendered FMV is in real-time.

umm...did you forget about Heavenly Sword of Genji 2 (aka Massive Damage) that were played live at the press conference?

[StGeorge]

umm...did you forget about Heavenly Sword of Genji 2 (aka Massive Damage) that were played live at the press conference?

Who'se to say that wasn't on an Xbox 360 like that other PS3 exclusive? We'll never know. But it's more likely that was pre-rendered as well. Did you actually map the controller actions to the game to verify it was all "legit"? Did he move the camera around the game-world freely for the press like Microsoft did with the Halo 3 demo?

The Warhawk demo was real though (and looked like crap) only because even Sony wouldn't be smart enough to produce a worse demo to show off their controller's weak motion sensor.

[Eran Hawke]

It is sad that I believe this information. Sony has no credibility with me any more.

As for the Inquirer, are you people confusing it with the Enquirer?

[antoniogaud]

Just to educate me, why specifically does the Inquirer get such a bad rap? Have they put up false stories in the past? Anymore than 1up or gamedaily?

Just want to know the truth.

[KidCactus]

But it's more likely that was pre-rendered as well. Did you actually map the controller actions to the game to verify it was all "legit"?
Since it was playable on the floor, I guess we'll just have to assume it wasn't pre-rendered. :rolleyes:

[bapenguin]

Just to educate me, why specifically does the Inquirer get such a bad rap? Have they put up false stories in the past? Anymore than 1up or gamedaily?

Just want to know the truth.

They assume A LOT. They are wrong a lot more than they are right.

[Serapth]

They assume A LOT. They are wrong a lot more than they are right.

In their defence though, they do "break" alot of stories that end up being true. Alot of there negative rep comes from the bad name ( too Enquirer esque ), so when they are wrong, they look extremely wrong.

[Chalex]

Since it was playable on the floor, I guess we'll just have to assume it wasn't pre-rendered. :rolleyes:Shoosh you. Bringing fact and reason into this conversation, you're likely to ruin someones day.

[BrainDrain]

I'm sure Sony will come back and spin this so it doesn't look all that bad.

[rjcc]

They assume A LOT. They are wrong a lot more than they are right.


co-sign, when they don't know, they'll just make shit up.

[Evil Avatar]

If not for the technical jargon, his post sounds a lot like the fanboys on EvAv! I dunno, but I gotta wonder how MGS4 outshines almost every 360 game if it's so crippled. The realtime demo running unoptimized on the dev kit looked pretty spectacular, so I'll read this the other way...

Development kits are usually PC's with high end CPU's and high end video cards, they aren't debug units with actual game hardware.

Not that I trust The Inquirer, just pointing out that a game running on a high end PC might look better (and run in a higher resolution) than one running on the final debug unit hardware.

[benig]

This article is absolute crap. I am no Sony apologist, but this isn't a big deal. It has come to the point where polygons/sec is being overshadowed by how many shaders you can throw over those polygons, and the processing you can elsewhere. This does not spell doom for Sony, in fact, this article assumes a lot of things, especially with the very unconvincing source material.

[torrefaction]

It's unfortunate. At this rate, we'll never see the PS9. That commercial made me want it so damn bad!

[Chalex]

Pulled from an AC on /.

The The Inquirer article is rubbish and that slide is taken out of context. It seems to imply that the Cell can only read "Cell local memory" (whatever that is) at 16MB/s.

Memory transfer bandwidth between each SPU and its SPU Local Memory is something more like 25GB/s (gigabyte per second); sustained actual bandwidth between all SPUs is greater than 100GB/s; peak theoretical is greater than 200GB/s (assuming all 8 SPUs present for simplicity).

If you had access to the full version of the presentation (part of the full Sony PS3 SDK and technotes), you'd realise that that slide is part of a presentation about the RSX (the PS3's GPU). As such, when it refers to "Local Memory", it means RSX's Local Memory (eg graphics memory, video memory, VRAM or whatever you call it in fanboy/ps3/360-is-teh-suck websites). To be understood outside that context, the columns would be better labelled "Main System Memory" and "GPU Local Memory".

The Inquirer article seems to suggest that this figure of 16MB/s (megabyte per second, by the way, what the fuck is it with journalists swapping bits for bytes? why don't they get their shift/capslock keys fixed?) is some kind of show stopper. No it isn't. It simply means that the Cell processor has 16MB/s bandwidth when reading directly from memory-mapped GPU address space. So what? Unless you're planning on calling memcpy() or some shit to bring your data back then it doesn't really matter.

On RSX-initiated transfers you have 20GB/s bandwidth to do the same transfer (from RSX local to main system memory). Cell read bandwidth of GPU memory might as well have 0MB/s (ie no connection at all) and it wouldn't matter a bit.

[jacktion]

There is no way to tell if this is accurate but it don't sound good.
Sony has been very arrogant recently so it is not hard to believe that they would design a system with a fatal flaw and not care. Even if this is not true, the fact that so many people are willing to believe it means that Sony is unpopular right now. They need to start improving their image if they want to remain dominant.

Steak.

[Demo_Boy]

The Inquirer does not know what they are talking about.

The PS3 is a beast. No worries in this regard.

Move along nothing to see here.

[Kamalot]

The Inquirer does not know what they are talking about.

The PS3 is a beast. No worries in this regard.

Move along nothing to see here.
You sound like Sony damage control.

[Blade]

It is the Inq... but please oh please be true!

[Reanimated]

You sound like Sony damage control.




He's obviously a SADS (Sony Automated Defense System) bot.

[Kefkataran]

You know there's plenty of real information that makes Sony look bad, could we steer clear of the fake shit please? Or at least wait until it's posted on a site that has some degree of credibility (keep it up and this site will lose what little it has left, I say that with love for this place).

Let's be fair -- the moment it was posted people started questioning the validity. Probably would have faster myself had I any previous experience with the Inquirer.

[Banacek]

Where's Pumped'Up? I need an unbiased viewpoint about this article.

[bapenguin]

Pulled from an AC on /.

I thought the PS3 uses shared memory for the GPU/CPU. What he described there wouldn't make much sense then.

[Savok]

Let's be fair -- the moment it was posted people started questioning the validity. Probably would have faster myself had I any previous experience with the Inquirer.
Yeah but it's happening more and more recently, it's gotten to the point where you have to check the comments to see if the original piece of news has been murdered by the community.

Why do you think there's such a nub influx? Moment you read comments here some asshole is spouting so much bullshit that you just have to make an account to flame him. It's what makes this place great (not sarcasm).

[rjcc]

I thought the PS3 uses shared memory for the GPU/CPU. What he described there wouldn't make much sense then.

from what I understand it does, but the cell doesn't read from it very fast. The article is accurate, the slide is real, and they did suggest using the rsx to read from main memory, the thing is it won't impact performance the wqay inquirer says it will.

the facts are true, I've spoke to people who've seen the slide, it's their conclusion thats incorrect. (note: I'm pretty much a 360 fanboy, I just don't like to be inaccurate)

[antoniogaud]

from what I understand it does, but the cell doesn't read from it very fast. The article is accurate, the slide is real, and they did suggest using the rsx to read from main memory, the thing is it won't impact performance the wqay inquirer says it will.

the facts are true, I've spoke to people who've seen the slide, it's their conclusion thats incorrect. (note: I'm pretty much a 360 fanboy, I just don't like to be inaccurate)

What is your gist then? That the article is correct or not correct? In what way? I don't understand the tech specs so I need clarity!!

HELP!!

[Mike Jones]

according to EXIF data the picture was taken the 4th of June, 20:20:59

[Kefkataran]

Why do you think there's such a nub influx? Moment you read comments here some asshole is spouting so much bullshit that you just have to make an account to flame him. It's what makes this place great (not sarcasm).

Aawwww, Savok! We love you too!

[Carnisaur]

Guys, who cares about graphics? I'm just buying it because it can play all my favorite movies on blu-ray and blu-ray is the future. Aren't you guys?

Guys?

[rjcc]

What is your gist then? That the article is correct or not correct? In what way? I don't understand the tech specs so I need clarity!!

HELP!!


ESL?

The slide is real, but it doesn't mean the PS3 is severely handicapped by it.

[Reanimated]

Guys, who cares about graphics? I'm just buying it because it can play all my favorite movies on blu-ray and blu-ray is the future. Aren't you guys?

Guys?



FIVE HUNDRED AND NINETY NINE US DOLLARS

[Serapth]

FIVE HUNDRED AND NINETY NINE US DOLLARS

Thats like FIFTY NINE THOUSAND AND NINE HUNDRED AND NINTY NINE PENNIES!



... god , so want to pay for a PS3 in pennies now :D

[dimsumx]

FIVE HUNDRED AND NINETY NINE US DOLLARS


....FOR MASSIVE DAMAGE!!

:D

[absolut taco]

You know technically, if you eat lots of steak, it will clog your arteries, and you'll need a bypass surgery on your heart.
So: As bad as a stake in your heart is, a steak in your heart comes a close second.

Seriously though, the original poster probably pushes the breaks in his car so hard it brakes down...

[Jack B]

Where's Pumped'Up? I need an unbiased viewpoint about this article.

Good one! :D

[Reanimated]

On a funny note - Major Nelson in his podcast today called the PS3 "a blu ray player that just happens to have controllers attached"


lol, now THAT'S massive damage.

[ChaosDent]

What is your gist then? That the article is correct or not correct? In what way? I don't understand the tech specs so I need clarity!!

HELP!!

I think the point is there is no reason for the CPU to read directly from the VRAM, most of the data that is put there is only needed for final composition done in the graphics card. The Inquirer misunderstood what "Local Memory" meant and thought it was a big deal, when in fact this setup is exactly the way the RAM on PC graphics cards is handled. No big deal.

[bboy]

Heck, I don't care about Graphics or even Blu-Ray. I just wanna give $600 to a scumsucking company who wants to own us all in every way!

/not a chance Sony.

[Beelzebud]

Starting to sound like the Sega Saturn all over again.

Crippled performance, and a bitch to program for.

[overdrivechao]

It was basically just an animated movie using ingame models and rendered using the devkit. Toystory didn't use physics and neither did the MGS4 video.

You are missing the whole fuck point. If the article were true, the hardware would be unable to render the damned polygons for the realtime demo. Which looked better than anything except maybe gears of war.

[absolut taco]

Secondly...unless I am reading this incorrectly, the information came from someone the author was sitting next to on the plane? Sounds a little sketchy to me to say the least.
He probably sat next to a snake. There are snakes on the plane!

[Vanthar]

Lamest news site ever. And how come the only articles we post from them are anti-ps3 ones? The data is taken extremely out of context.. it's been pointed out already by various members. I just hope that site dies in a fire.

[Carnisaur]

Starting to sound like the Sega Saturn all over again.

Crippled performance, and a bitch to program for.

Starting to sound like the greatest console ever? Not even close.

[IRONGUSTAV]

You sound like Sony damage control.

and you sound like a nintard :)

[overdrivechao]

Lamest news site ever. And how come the only articles we post from them are anti-ps3 ones? The data is taken extremely out of context.. it's been pointed out already by various members. I just hope that site dies in a fire.

Lolz. Ergg you have to learn to enjoy watching them. It's kind of like a zoo, where ravenous XBox fanboys do damage control where none is needed and yell at people who have chosen not to sign on to the 360. A large contingent of EvAv wants to see news articles calling the PS3 a broken scanner, because it makes them feel better and they can post about how Sony is dead and such.

[absolut taco]

I have seen over the years how pro-XBOX ea.com is.. but where in the hell do you guys find these anti-PS3 articles? You have to actively be searching these out to find them.

Funny, I've never seen any bias on Electronic Arts's web site which makes sense because they sell games for all systems. :rolleyes:

[Reanimated]

You are missing the whole fuck point. If the article were true, the hardware would be unable to render the damned polygons for the realtime demo. Which looked better than anything except maybe gears of war.



Mass Effect says hi.

Anyway, looking at stills of MGS4 leaves me utterly unimpressed. Muddy texture work, characters that look like claymation, low poly models... just not terribly impressive. If find it sad that people are actually using it as a benchmark.

[absolut taco]

Starting to sound like the Sega Saturn all over again.

Crippled performance, and a bitch to program for.
Also sounds like the PS2, and look how many games with good graphics came out for that...
There's God of War, there's Shadow of the Colossus...
Shit, can't think of any others... ;)

[Kamalot]

and you sound like a nintard :)Yeah, a Nintentard with an Xbox live gamer tag in his sig?

Damn, you got me.

[Kamalot]

Starting to sound like the Sega Saturn all over again.

Crippled performance, and a bitch to program for.
Quoted for TRUTH!

[bapenguin]

Lamest news site ever. And how come the only articles we post from them are anti-ps3 ones? The data is taken extremely out of context.. it's been pointed out already by various members. I just hope that site dies in a fire.

We posted a bunch of 360 "speculation" from them before the system came out. I think about 90% of it turned out wrong.

[Reanimated]

Yeah, a Nintentard with an Xbox live gamer tag in his sig?

Damn, you got me.




you're such a worthless nintendrone. gtfo stupid nfayg!

[51|RandoM]

Until Sony actually shows thier console isn't a POS people are going to assume its a POS, due to strong x360 and wii market precences.

Long as they remember what happens when they assume---which will put them in the same boat with The Inq.

[51|RandoM]

FIVE HUNDRED AND NINETY NINE US DOLLARS

Cheapest blu-ray player on the planet. :p

[absolut taco]

FIVE HUNDRED AND NINETY NINE US DOLLARS
Why don't you make it bold and size 7 font while you're at it, mr caps lock... ;)

[Com_Gaunt]

I don't think that the specs will be that important. I remember buying a PS2 as a Dreamcast owner about 4(?) years ago and I was stunned how blurry and crappy the graphics were compared to the bright and crisp graphics on the dreamcast. It was the games, the large amount and the exclusives what made the PS2 what it is today. I'll buy a PS3 when there is a really cool game on it that I cannot play on any other console (Mercenaries 2 comes to mind). I bought a PS2 for GTA3 at the time and bought a Xbox for Kotor.

[Reanimated]

Cheapest blu-ray player on the planet. :p




With budget quality to match. You don't get a Rolls Royce for the price of a Yugo, friend.

[Major Dan]

WOW, what a thread, sounds like the information is true but the Inq got it all wrong on the effects. I still don't know exactly what it all means, but it still seems the PS3 and 360 are about the same in power. So it should all boil down to games again and well maybe the price. The Wii may steal market share from both, who knows. But I do see a lot of gaming in our futures.

[atariv8]

AI, checking envorinment per frame, controller input per frame, ah forget it, can someone explain the difference between a real-time cut scene and actual in game graphics for the individuals who clearly don't know the the difference. The comment about the MGS4 scene being too complex to be hand animated made me laugh...

[Jack B]

A good friend of mine works for SCEE and he says this is complete bollocks.

Woops, hit submit by accident.

He didn't go into detail about exact numbers, but the RSX and Cell are anything from crippled. Just because The Inquirer known to be the most unreliable site on the net for gaming news, posts one picture from Devstation, doesn't mean they know what they are talking about.

Interesting thing he told me was, the video card in the original X-Box was almost completely closed off by Nvidia, so developers didn't have access to much of the power of the card. The RSX is much much better, and developers have almost full access to the card.

We know the RSX and the Cell are beasts, there are even multiple articles about the sheer power of the Cell from outside of Sony (The article from Berkley, the treasury departments statements etc).

Does anyone really think that STI would design this system architecture, pour in years of work and hundreds of millions of dollars, just to have it be a piece of shit? Do you really think that Sony would release a system a year after the 360 that has HALF the traingle fillrate? Please.

Siraris,

Asking someone from Sony to comment is like asking Stalin's admin whether it seems their regime is having more than it's fair share of citizen's disappearing mysteriously...

Anyway, I can't vouch for this article nor the Inquirer's quality, but it's credibility is certainly on par with an anonymous friend who works at Sony.

If you look at the site in more depth, it's English and has no relation to the American "National Inquirer". They have a section on Microprocessor's, Graphics etc, so I'd guess that although they aren't correct on every article, they are not to be dismissed without further investigation. I'm sure we'll hear more about this.

My guess is it's not as bad as it looks, but may not be as good as Sony (and that includes named and anonymous Sony employees...) led us to believe. Now wouldn't THAT be a surprise. :rolleyes:

[Chalex]

I thought the PS3 uses shared memory for the GPU/CPU. What he described there wouldn't make much sense then.The GPU and CPU each have 256 MB of memory, but have the ability to directly access information on the others side.

I.E. the CELL does a physics calculation then the RSX can directly refrence the results off of the CPUs half of the RAM.

I don't believe that it include write privilages, IIRC it's read only that way.

[IRONGUSTAV]

Yeah, a Nintentard with an Xbox live gamer tag in his sig?

Damn, you got me.

kamalot a xboxlive gamertag dont makes u a rational poster,u hate everything sony related dude

[IRONGUSTAV]

Anyway, looking at stills of MGS4 leaves me utterly unimpressed. Muddy texture work, characters that look like claymation, low poly models... just not terribly impressive. If find it sad that people are actually using it as a benchmark.

dude,i know u hate everything sony related,but mgs4 is a graphicall masterpiece

[Reanimated]

dude,i know u hate everything sony related,but mgs4 is a graphicall masterpiece




I disagree.

http://img.gamespot.com/gamespot/images/2006/128/926596_20060509_screen005.jpg

[Kefkataran]

Umm... that looks quite beautiful to me, trolly.

[Reanimated]

Aside from the muddy textures, low poly models, and lack of color palette, it looks great.

[DirtyChimp]

this is a non-article, and low read and high graphics write is close to how PC's have always been structured..

"The The Inquirer article is rubbish and that slide is taken out of context. It seems to imply that the Cell can only read "Cell local memory" (whatever that is) at 16MB/s.

Memory transfer bandwidth between each SPU and its SPU Local Memory is something more like 25GB/s (gigabyte per second); sustained actual bandwidth between all SPUs is greater than 100GB/s; peak theoretical is greater than 200GB/s (assuming all 8 SPUs present for simplicity).

If you had access to the full version of the presentation (part of the full Sony PS3 SDK and technotes), you'd realise that that slide is part of a presentation about the RSX (the PS3's GPU). As such, when it refers to "Local Memory", it means RSX's Local Memory (eg graphics memory, video memory, VRAM or whatever you call it in fanboy/ps3/360-is-teh-suck websites). To be understood outside that context, the columns would be better labelled "Main System Memory" and "GPU Local Memory".

The Inquirer article seems to suggest that this figure of 16MB/s (megabyte per second, by the way, what the fuck is it with journalists swapping bits for bytes? why don't they get their shift/capslock keys fixed?) is some kind of show stopper. No it isn't. It simply means that the Cell processor has 16MB/s bandwidth when reading directly from memory-mapped GPU address space. So what? Unless you're planning on calling memcpy() or some shit to bring your data back then it doesn't really matter.

On RSX-initiated transfers you have 20GB/s bandwidth to do the same transfer (from RSX local to main system memory). Cell read bandwidth of GPU memory might as well have 0MB/s (ie no connection at all) and it wouldn't matter a bit."(by hptux09 from slashdot.com)

[Roc Ingersol]

The Inquirer does have 0 credibility.
It puts them on even footing with Sony's marketing department.

[Kefkataran]

Yeeeep. Keep on trolling, trolly mctrollson. I'll be over here actually enjoying video games.

[Reanimated]

I forgot to mention the lack of character detail... for comparison:

X360 - sharp textures, heavcy character details, vibrant colors:

http://img.gamespot.com/gamespot/images/2006/130/930279_20060511_screen003.jpg

http://img.gamespot.com/gamespot/images/2005/257/reviews/928234_20050915_screen002.jpg


PS3 - muddy textures, low detail characters, puke green (style choice obviously, but still):

http://img.gamespot.com/gamespot/images/2006/128/926596_20060509_screen016.jpg



But yeah, have fun with the 3rd grade name-calling. Hope it helps you sleep at night.

[KNOTE]

MGS4 was realtime, but that team has the best artists in the industry. It's not a good representation of what you'll see universally. Team talent >>>>>> hardware limitations. Please all people stop using this as an example of hardware power. Hardware power is in object count / draw distance / AI entities / physics. Not how awesome a character looks. *cue silent hill guy*

However, it's been apparent that Cell sucks for a long time. Kutaragi was not demoted without reason. It's 2 billion down the drain. No one likes working with the cell. Why do you think Sony is hyping Blu-ray above all else. The RSX is an off the shelf Nvidia processor that was hacked in very quickly. It's a PC video card that saved the PS3 (which was in danger of simply not working). Remember, the Cell was supposed to be the graphics hardware, but it could not handle the job. The Nvidia contract was signed only weeks before they announced it, though they will PR you otherwise.

Sony has a different philosophy and always has. The PS2 hardware took a long time to get a grasp of but developer creativity was able to work around it and make some awesome looking stuff. They believe this is the case for PS3 as well, and I'm believe they are right. However, they don't have the luxury of time to put out Kessen and Phantavision this time around.

Since they are doing things like firing Molly Smith, and promping Borys to say things like "GAME OVER for Sony" things are looking like the wheels are coming off. But can anyone (MS or Ninty) capitalize? Time will tell. Eventually developers will get control of the shoddy hardware design and Sony loyal or owned game companies are some of the most talented in the industry. The games will look and play great, but can they get that killer app out before anyone else?

[Vanthar]

Uh because she has a clear complexion she has no character detail? Sorry, but there were other parts of the trailer with more facial detail (at least it seems that's what you're going for). The textures in GOW look good, but the ones in Mass Effect look drab. I don't know what kind of textures and color scheme you want from a war-torn desert environment, but those look good to me.

[DirtyChimp]

like KNOTE said, lets put the MGS4 thing to rest. just take a look at my previous post above and we can all stop arguing and finally be happy.

[absolut taco]

...huge fucking screens...

But yeah, have fun with the 3rd grade name-calling. Hope it helps you sleep at night.
Dude, if you're gonna compare PS3 game A to 360 game B you are just gonna make the biggest joke out of yourself.

But for the love of all things holy, I shouldn't have to fucking scroll horizontally to read the posts, so lay off the huge screens!!!

[Reanimated]

I don't see why these would be invalid comparisons. Especially for GoW and MGS4. Comparisons aren't even where I wanted to go. I simply needed to illustrate that MGS4 is not the "graphical masterpiece" that some make it out to be. It's got some extremely shoddy texture work going on.

[RMan]

AI, checking envorinment per frame, controller input per frame, ah forget it, can someone explain the difference between a real-time cut scene and actual in game graphics for the individuals who clearly don't know the the difference. The comment about the MGS4 scene being too complex to be hand animated made me laugh...
If you’re referring to me, it likely made you laugh because you don’t understand it (since what I said was it’d be harder to hand animate or otherwise not worth preprocessing, not that it isn’t possible). Look, you can imagine that the PS3 will be unable to perform modern game AI if you like (although in a game like this a low end PC would clearly be sufficient), or that controller input is going to be a hurdle (now you want to talk laughable… FYI, controller input is absolutely insignificant and you should never mention it). Not sure what “checking environment per frame” would entail in your mind, but if you understood games you’d understand that an in-game cutscene places almost the same level of demand on the system as a game (have you ever seen in-game cutscenes that are much more complicated than the game because of all that extra time that skipping AI and controller input gave them? Didn’t think so). Look, if you want to be remotely objective you’ll see that at least the last two console generations the systems are reasonably equivalent of what can be done with a relatively high end PC (not suprising, they all share much of the same tech). Other than blinding hate, why you’d assume this has suddenly changed and the high end console is a snapshot of an extremely low end PC is inexplicable.

[xanthome]

chalex and dirtychimp are referring to the slashdot article, and it is correct. PS3 is not unified memory it's 256 main and 256 video. Local memory in that slide is referring to video memory and the inquirer is making the assumption that it's Cell Local, so the basis of the article is completely wrong.

[KNOTE]

like KNOTE said, lets put the MGS4 thing to rest. just take a look at my previous post above and we can all stop arguing and finally be happy.

Agreed, I mean each one has its strengths and anyone's opinion about the quality of the art style does not mean anything about the hardware. Attractive woman vs space marine. Which is harder to model? Soft self-shadowing on the MGS4 lady. Fluid hair simulation, close up model detail.

The others look incredible as well, some of the best anyone has ever seen. But they are a different STYLE and have different areas of emphasis. It's so frustrating when people toss up screenshots like this to show why a console is better or not. Games are made by people! Not by hardware.

[absolut taco]

I don't see why these would be invalid comparisons. Especially for GoW and MGS4. Comparisons aren't even where I wanted to go. I simply needed to illustrate that MGS4 is not the "graphical masterpiece" that some make it out to be. It's got some extremely shoddy texture work going on.
To make a game run well, some compromises need to happen. You're supposed to look at the chick, and not the wall. Hence, the wall looks worse than the chick...

[Banacek]

All the answers you seek can be found here... (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/subscription.php?do=removesubscription&return=ucp&t=13490)

[Mason]

Wha?

http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/power/library/pa-cellperf/figure1.gif (http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/power/library/pa-cellperf/)

The SPEs are designed to blaze through data in their local storage, or stream data between SPEs real chop-chop. Accessing the RSX's GDDR, though? Why would you ever want to read anything over there? Writing results to buffers/textures/shader parameters, sure, but it's hard to imagine reading something into the graphics memory when you want to use it on an SPE.

Tempest in a teacup.

[Reanimated]

To make a game run well, some compromises need to happen. You're supposed to look at the chick, and not the wall. Hence, the wall looks worse than the chick...




This is "next-gen", man. The wall and the chick should both look great. I don't see any shitty walls in GoW or ME. I'm not sure I'm satisfied with a 600 dollar system that has to trade off shitty walls for playability.

[absolut taco]

This is "next-gen", man. The wall and the chick should both look great. I don't see any shitty walls in GoW or ME. I'm not sure I'm satisfied with a 600 dollar system that has to trade off shitty walls for playability.
If you look at the wall instead of the chick, how was the parade this weekend?

When I played CoD2 on the 360 I saw plenty of bad textures...Did it make me enjoy the game less? Nope!

[RMan]

Aside from the muddy textures, low poly models, and lack of color palette, it looks great.
Ok, you're going to have a tough time relating to the average person with these arguments. First off, the texture work is not as detailed as GoW, I'll give you that. Low poly models? Umm, you're hard pressed to find polygon lines in screenshots, much less those that jump out at you, and far from those that jump out at you durring the video (for the people that don't play screenshots). Lack of a color palette? Now come on, you're really reaching there. Do you really think the green tinted scenes in The Matrix were that way because they couldn't afford the cameras that can do good red, or do you think it was for an effect?

The bottom line is that the video material shown for MGS4 does, for many, outshine anything shown for the 360 at present, deal with it. I have no doubt that this indicates nothing significant in terms of hardware, all signs indicate that everything shown for the 360 could be done on a PS3, and vice versa.

[Zechs01]

I would'nt put to much stock in what the Inquirer says most of what they say is just gossip BS.

[bKangy]

Yeah, I'm no fan of Sony but this is blatantly exaggerated. I'm sure there are issues, but I doubt they're this bad. The Inquirer is The Sun of tech really. I hope things aren't this bad really, bad PS3 games = bad 360 games at the end of the day unless the title is developed exclusively.

[Reanimated]

If you look at the wall instead of the chick, how was the parade this weekend?

When I played CoD2 on the 360 I saw plenty of bad textures...Did it make me enjoy the game less? Nope!




I'm comparing top-tier games here. I could easily pull out a bunch of B-level bullshit for PS3 like Fifth Phantom Saga to make a point, but that's pretty worthless.

Technically speaking, there's simply no question that Gears of War and Mass Effect both take a dump on MGS4. They are both far sharper and far more detailed. How anyone calls that muddy mess MGS a "graphical masterpiece" is beyond me. It's an undetailed muddy clusterfuck, and it hasn't even hit a playable state yet.

[KNOTE]

This is "next-gen", man. The wall and the chick should both look great. I don't see any shitty walls in GoW or ME. I'm not sure I'm satisfied with a 600 dollar system that has to trade off shitty walls for playability.

Shitty walls = no buy. STOP JUST STOP

[Reanimated]

Shitty walls + 600 dollar price tag = what kind of fucking moron accepts this proposition?

This is an acceptable leap over previous gen graphics? Muddy textures everywhere in a platform defining title? STOP JUST STOP

[Zechs01]

how can you even compare anything when the games havent even been finalized for the PS3?

[Reanimated]

how can you even compare anything when the games havent even been finalized for the PS3?



I didn't compare it to finished games. And the shot I posted from GoW is a shot that was released 2 months prior to the launch of the 360. So, ya know, I think I've kept it pretty fair.

[bKangy]

Woohoo, fanboy time. And I thought I was a fanboy! I think MGS4 looks pretty good. Yeah, I noticed the shit textures on a lot of things, but I think if the gameplay delivers it might be moot. Not worth £520 though (£420+a launch game+MGS4+another controller) especially considering I'm struggling to afford a 360.

[Reanimated]

Woohoo, fanboy time. And I thought I was a fanboy! I think MGS4 looks pretty good. Yeah, I noticed the shit textures on a lot of things, but I think if the gameplay delivers it might be moot. Not worth £520 though (£420+a launch game+MGS4+another controller) especially considering I'm struggling to afford a 360.




Thanks for giving the average person's perspective that RMan was looking for :)

[absolut taco]

Shitty walls + 600 dollar price tag = what kind of fucking moron accepts this proposition?

This is an acceptable leap over previous gen graphics? Muddy textures everywhere in a platform defining title? STOP JUST STOP
So if I show you some bad graphics in a "top-tier" 360 game, will you hate your $400 console? Or is $400 an acceptable price level for bad graphics?

[Zechs01]

I didn't compare it to finished games. And the shot I posted from GoW is a shot that was released 2 months prior to the launch of the 360. So, ya know, I think I've kept it pretty fair.
the screen shot came 2 months prior to launch huh well the MGS4 screen shots came what more then 6 months before the PS3 launch real fair.

[Kamalot]

you're such a worthless nintendrone. gtfo stupid nfayg!
Ooooh! you got me again for MASSIVE DAMAGE!
Such a sharp wit you have to hit my weak point. :rolleyes:

[Reanimated]

So if I show you some bad graphics in a "top-tier" 360 game, will you hate your $400 console? Or is $400 an acceptable price level for bad graphics?



Good luck finding shitty shots of Gears, ME, Too Human, or Halo 3, because those are the only platform defining titles on the level of MGS. As for 400 dollars, I don't see what that has to do with anything. The PS3 is the console with the 200 dollar additional price tag. It's the console that is coming a year late with a much larger asking price, therefore, the onus is on IT to provide the visual leap over the competition that launched a year earler for 200 dollars less. It, however, is not providing that leap. In fact, games look demonstrably better on the older cheaper machine.

[Reanimated]

the screen shot came 2 months prior to launch huh well the MGS4 screen shots came what more then 6 months before the PS3 launch real fair.




Yeah, becuase they're going to totally overhaul the MGS4 game engine in 3 months (PS3 is 5 months away). You've really dropped a logic bomb there, chief.

[Zechs01]

What you say makes no sense. How do you know they will "Overhaul" the game engine, do you work on developing the game?

[51|RandoM]

I disagree.

...and we'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you disagree on stylistic issues and not because you are retarded.



The complaints you listed later don't seem to make sense to me. Muddy textures? You're looking at motion-blurred action in a dusty/foggy environment. Low poly models? Don't understand what you're saying, I can't even see any polys in the people in that image. Lack of a color palette? Not sure what you're saying here, you mean there aren't enough colors? Or colors you don't like? Plenty of environments out there that don't sport every color in the rainbow, much less highly saturated colors.

[Reanimated]

Your sarcasm detector seems to need maintenance, zechs.

[Jack B]

Shitty walls + 600 dollar price tag = what kind of fucking moron accepts this proposition?

This is an acceptable leap over previous gen graphics? Muddy textures everywhere in a platform defining title? STOP JUST STOP

Reanimated,

I'll take your side on this one as it looks like you could use some help..

I didn't look that closely at the MGS4 trailer previously and I'm no graphics expert, but I was impressed from my casual look. I believed all the hype on how good it was graphically, but never really compared it to anything else... The art design, story, voice acting (well I don't speak Japanese, but it sounds good) dialogue and cinematic nature of the MGS4 is not challenged by me, just the graphics quality.

Upon further review of screenshots at least it does look quite a bit behind GOW and Mass Effect. The picture of the alien woman in Mass Effect with the dimpled complexion and the watery eyes, makes the woman in MGS4 look like a cartoon. I can't post pics or I'd show that image to compare... The Mass Effect woman is amazing.

Maybe it is style, but it's not on par with Mass Effect's characters. As for the textures on walls ect, that seems behind as well. I'm also not a fan of the blurry green look, but that's personal choice.

I'm surprised by these comparisions. Granted gameplay is what matters and MGS4 may deliver, but I won't accept that it was the "future of Next Gen graphics" or any other similar comments about MGS4 until I see better.

I am still impressed with the length of the MGS4 video and if I was a fan, I'm sure the content is every bit as good as people are saying, but the graphics don't hold up well to scrutiny upon further review.

[Zechs01]

Sarcasm is illogical.

[Reanimated]

...and we'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you disagree on stylistic issues and not because you are retarded.




I disagree because 90% of the textures are a shitty looking mess. This is simply the facts on the ground. Anyone with eyeballs in their head can see it.

Stylistically, I actually like the post-processing effects, so that really has nothing to do with my assessment.

[Reanimated]

Reanimated,

I'll take your side on this one as it looks like you could use some help..





I thought I was doing pretty good holding off like 5 sony viral marketers at once, but thanks. :cool:

[51|RandoM]

On the original story:

A. They're making assumptions---and then creating a story out of them---based upon one slide out of an entire presentation.

B. The slide is basically saying, "yeah, you can read from rsx local memory with an SPE, but don't do it. If you really want to do that, then have the rsx move it to main memory instead, which is a much faster transaction."

C. In typical rendering, there is never any reason for your CPU(or SPE in this case)to read from the GPU's local memory. Never happens. You can do it with the PS3, though, and you can do it the right way(with the RSX doing the work, nice and fast), or you can do it the wrong way(with an SPE).

So many Chicken Littles running around, lol.

[askheaves]

I'm with you, Reanimated. The impact of the MGS4 video was the story and the distopian view on the future of war, not so much the graphics. Sony has one hell of a hurdle to leap to take this generation, akin to the PS2's advantage over the then year-old Dreamcast or the XBox's leap over the then year-old PS2. It's undeniable that, from a horsepower standpoint, those 1 year delays made for a drastically improved competitor. And remember, Microsoft was barely even thinking about making a console before 2000, much less having final specs already announced.

On original topic, it seems pretty well rebuked that this mystery number would have any major impact on performance. It's still pretty unclear to me what "Local Memory" is, except to say that it seems like it's the onboard memory of the RSX? Framebuffer? Unless you plan on dedicating a CPU pipeline to doing after effects (antialiasing), or reading the results back from the pixel shaders, those reads are pretty worthless anyway.

[Kefkataran]

Reanimated, I hate feeding your trolliness, but I don't care how much of a ridiculous Microsoft fanboy you are, calling MGS4's graphics an "undetailed muddy clusterfuck" is bullshit. I don't care if it doesn't compare to some 360 game -- that doesn't instantly mean it's shit graphics. Fanboy.

[Doctor Setebos]

Reanimated, I hate feeding your trolliness, but I don't care how much of a ridiculous Microsoft fanboy you are, calling MGS4's graphics an "undetailed muddy clusterfuck" is bullshit. I don't care if it doesn't compare to some 360 game -- that doesn't instantly mean it's shit graphics. Fanboy.
He speaks the truth. (QFT was "too short")

[Jack B]

Reanimated, I hate feeding your trolliness, but I don't care how much of a ridiculous Microsoft fanboy you are, calling MGS4's graphics an "undetailed muddy clusterfuck" is bullshit. I don't care if it doesn't compare to some 360 game -- that doesn't instantly mean it's shit graphics. Fanboy.

For the record, I'd agree they aren't an "undetailed muddy clusterfuck" as that seems extreme. They're decent, just not as good as I originally thought they were...

I may have actually succumbed to the "Emperor's New Clothes" syndrome (we all do it...) and just assumed that since they were the best the PS3 had to offer, they must be better than the 360's... They may be in the end. We'll see.

As for the original topic of this thread. I bet the Cell chip will somehow compensate. Disclaimer - I'm in no way qualified to interpret Graphics numbers/architecture. :)

[Reanimated]

Reanimated, I hate feeding your trolliness, but I don't care how much of a ridiculous Microsoft fanboy you are, calling MGS4's graphics an "undetailed muddy clusterfuck" is bullshit. I don't care if it doesn't compare to some 360 game -- that doesn't instantly mean it's shit graphics. Fanboy.




Well I mean, see no evil, right kef? I'm sure I'd think it's fucking beautiful if I walked around with blinders on and never saw other games running on a console that came out last year for 200 dollars less. This console is coming a year late for a lot more scratch. It is supposed to be providing a visual leap. If we believed Kuturagi, then the PS3 is twice as powerful as the 360 - it certainly has the price for it, so I ask - where is the visual leap? Why do 360 games look BETTER?

It's funny that you call me a MS fanboy for taking sony to task for their fuck-ups. I've equally taken MS to task for their fuck-ups (back compat, for instance), and my game library contains far more PS2 games than Xbox games (not to mention GC, DS, etc...)

We can't all be sony apologists, kef. Unfortunately for you, there are viewpoints out there that oppose those held by your herd.

[Citizen Philip]

I'm not really interested in reading this thread or these threads in general, but: Are you talking about a cutscene from a game, or scripted sequences in a game (ie. the intro to Warcraft III vs the in-game cutscenes using the game models). Because, namely if it's the former it's a pregenerated sequence made on 3d animation software - the platform that displays the cutscene is non-issue because the video is imported and saved to disk. If you're talking about an in-game sequence, then you are getting a sample of footage from the engine.

Post a link to it. If it'st he one I saw, it's a pre-generated cutscene.

[Jack B]

I'm not really interested in reading this thread or these threads in general, but: Are you talking about a cutscene from a game, or scripted sequences in a game (ie. the intro to Warcraft III vs the in-game cutscenes using the game models). Because, namely if it's the former it's a pregenerated sequence made on 3d animation software - the platform that displays the cutscene is non-issue because the video is imported and saved to disk. If you're talking about an in-game sequence, then you are getting a sample of footage from the engine.

Post a link to it. If it'st he one I saw, it's a pre-generated cutscene.

The Mass Effect pictures are from gameplay. I've seen plenty of Mass Effect videos from E3. It's the best I've seen on the 360. Actually, there are quite a few better images IMO.

On the GOW image Reanimated showed, I have no idea.

[Citizen Philip]

Well I mean, see no evil, right kef? I'm sure I'd think it's fucking beautiful if I walked around with blinders on and never saw other games running on a console that came out last year for 200 dollars less. This console is coming a year late for a lot more scratch. It is supposed to be providing a visual leap. If we believed Kuturagi, then the PS3 is twice as powerful as the 360 - it certainly has the price for it, so I ask - where is the visual leap? Why do 360 games look BETTER?

It's funny that you call me a MS fanboy for taking sony to task for their fuck-ups. I've equally taken MS to task for their fuck-ups (back compat, for instance), and my game library contains far more PS2 games than Xbox games (not to mention GC, DS, etc...)

We can't all be sony apologists, kef. Unfortunately for you, there are viewpoints out there that oppose those held by your herd.

You sound like an Nvidiot or a fanATIc. Despite everything, you are utterly and absolutely convinced that you can see x16 FSAA vs x12 FSAA and that even moreso, the distinction between the graphics at 16x12 vs 19x14 are night-and day. And that of course, your video-card manufactuer of choice delivers an experience that cannot be competed with, and their corporate rival will be doomed. The fact that the gameplay experience delivered from Nvdia and ATI are identical while playing is irrelevent: because you can prove inequvically that the screenshot of the bared wire fence, when compared next to each other looks better.

Grow up, and go play with your favorite games and leave the others to play with theirs. Otherwise you get a spanking, get to sit in the corner and do neither.

[Citizen Philip]

The Mass Effect pictures are from gameplay. I've seen plenty of Mass Effect videos from E3. It's the best I've seen on the 360. Actually, there are quite a few better images IMO.

On the GOW image Reanimated showed, I have no idea.

Indeed, I look forward to playing Mass Effects. I'm just hoping I won't have to get Vista to play it. Next year, of course when it's annouced for PC. When Bethsoft releases more info on Fallout 3 ;)

[Kefkataran]

We can't all be sony apologists, kef. Unfortunately for you, there are viewpoints out there that oppose those held by your herd.

It's funny that you'd call me a Sony apologist since I've never done any sony apologist shit on this board ever. Me pointing out that the MGS4 screens don't look bad (which they don't) is far from being an apologist. And why the fuck would I be an apologist when I own and love my 360, plan on getting a Wii, and have no set plans on if or when I'll be getting a PS3? Yep. I'm a real hardcore apologist here. Uh-huh.

[Reanimated]

You sound like an Nvidiot or a fanATIc. Despite everything, you are utterly and absolutely convinced that you can see x16 FSAA vs x12 FSAA and that even moreso, the distinction between the graphics at 16x12 vs 19x14 are night-and day. And that of course, your video-card manufactuer of choice delivers an experience that cannot be competed with, and their corporate rival will be doomed. The fact that the gameplay experience delivered from Nvdia and ATI are identical while playing is irrelevent: because you can prove inequvically that the screenshot of the bared wire fence, when compared next to each other looks better.

Grow up, and go play with your favorite games and leave the others to play with theirs. Otherwise you get a spanking, get to sit in the corner and do neither.




Well, first off, your analogy is bunk. Muddy texture work is an OBVIOUS visual flaw. Not even close to telling the visual difference between aliasing or AF levels, although AF can be pretty obvious - another point that I've taken MS to task over.

As for your implied accusation that I'm a total graphics whore and ignore gameplay - I own about 15 DS games and use my PSP as a paperweight. I'm not all about the graphics, but you know what, that little machine provides more than enough value for it's price - on all fronts. I'm constantly amazed that MP Hunters looks better than most 3D PSP titles.

[Reanimated]

It's funny that you'd call me a Sony apologist since I've never done any sony apologist shit on this board ever. Me pointing out that the MGS4 screens don't look bad (which they don't) is far from being an apologist. And why the fuck would I be an apologist when I own and love my 360, plan on getting a Wii, and have no set plans on if or when I'll be getting a PS3? Yep. I'm a real hardcore apologist here. Uh-huh.




Well, you know, then I guess I'd just have to say that it's a REAL coincidence that you seem to take the Ken Kuturagi viewpoint in every discussion. :rolleyes:

[Citizen Philip]

Well, first off, your analogy is bunk. Muddy texture work is an OBVIOUS visual flaw. Not even close to telling the visual difference between aliasing or AF levels, although AF can be pretty obvious - another point that I've taken MS to task over.

As for your implied accusation that I'm a total graphics whore and ignore gameplay - I own about 15 DS games and use my PSP as a paperweight. I'm not all about the graphics, but you know what, that little machine provides more than enough value for it's price - on all fronts. I'm constantly amazed that MP Hunters looks better than most 3D PSP titles.

I said you sound like a graphic whore: The fact your entire "argument" is about your preceptions of game graphics somehow makes you not a graphics whore? Or do you have some kind of axe to grind and graphics are but one facet in your crusade?

[Reanimated]

My crusade is for the 200 dollar visual leap and why it seems to be reversed. This "visual masterpiece" nonsense has got to go. I could call anything a masterpiece without a point of reference for comparison. Hey look, a pile of shit on the floor... what a visual masterpiece!

Feel free to retread the thread on your own time.

[Kefkataran]

Well, you know, then I guess I'd just have to say that it's a REAL coincidence that you seem to take the Ken Kuturagi viewpoint in every discussion.

What the fuck are you talking about? If anything, I constantly make fun of Sony on the podcast, and I started off this thread saying "Holy shit, if this is true PS3 is in trouble". How the fuck is that the Kuturagi viewpoint? Saying "MGS4 looks good" does not make me a PS3 fanboy. MGS4 looks good. I'm not saying that makes it worth $600, I'm just saying it looks good. You need to learn to differentiate games from systems.

[Leaving Hope]

You sound like Sony damage control.

And we all know what happens to Sony's PR people. FIRED!

[Reanimated]

What the fuck are you talking about? If anything, I constantly make fun of Sony on the podcast, and I started off this thread saying "Holy shit, if this is true PS3 is in trouble". How the fuck is that the Kuturagi viewpoint? Saying "MGS4 looks good" does not make me a PS3 fanboy. MGS4 looks good. I'm not saying that makes it worth $600, I'm just saying it looks good. You need to learn to differentiate games from systems.




What is your frame of reference for "looks good"? Seriously.

Games are ON systems, man. It'd be one story if I could take a Gears of War disc and plug it into any machine in the house, but that ain't the case. The value of the game is tied to the value of the system if I have to buy the system to play the game. Having said that, as a GAME, I think it looks like it's terribly lacking, and anyone referencing other next-gen titles simply must agree that, technically, it doesn't stand up to other top-tier games.

[Kefkataran]

Having said that, as a GAME, I think it looks like it's terribly lacking, and anyone referencing other next-gen titles simply must agree that, technically, it doesn't stand up to other top-tier games.

And I disagree. *shrug* I think it looks beautiful, and not because I'm some Sony fanboy or some shit. I just think it looks like a really gorgeous game. Like I said earlier, it may not be as good-looking as other upcoming next-gen stuff, and I'm not comparing it. I'm saying on its own, I think it looks like a really beautiful game.

[Mason]

On the original story:

A. They're making assumptions---and then creating a story out of them---based upon one slide out of an entire presentation.

B. The slide is basically saying, "yeah, you can read from rsx local memory with an SPE, but don't do it. If you really want to do that, then have the rsx move it to main memory instead, which is a much faster transaction."

C. In typical rendering, there is never any reason for your CPU(or SPE in this case)to read from the GPU's local memory. Never happens. You can do it with the PS3, though, and you can do it the right way(with the RSX doing the work, nice and fast), or you can do it the wrong way(with an SPE).

So many Chicken Littles running around, lol.

Exactly. The article pretends like this is the speed at which the SPE reads from its local memory, when that's really in the 50GB/s range. Kind of a difference there!

So it goes with fanboy trolls. Once the momentum gets going, no fact can stand in their way. Really tiresome.

[Reanimated]

That's cool, and I'm just saying it looks like baby diarrhea. Especially when placed in a comparative analysis against other next-gen titles.

But hey, you know, there are people out there that think Morgan Webb is gorgeous, while I think she looks like Frankenstien. I'm right, of course, but I won't begrudge them their Morgan Webb fap time.

[Jack B]

It's funny that you'd call me a Sony apologist since I've never done any sony apologist shit on this board ever. Me pointing out that the MGS4 screens don't look bad (which they don't) is far from being an apologist. And why the fuck would I be an apologist when I own and love my 360, plan on getting a Wii, and have no set plans on if or when I'll be getting a PS3? Yep. I'm a real hardcore apologist here. Uh-huh.

Kefkataran,

You seem to take either Sony or Microsoft's side and then get hammered by either camp on a regular basis depending.

I think it's because at times you come out strong on either side, when you do chip in... If someone doesn't know your posting history, you get hammered.

I would think Reanimated would know your history. Maybe he didn't mean you were a Sony fan necessarily, just commenting on your Sony position on this particular thread... **try's to keep the peace... ducks** :)

[Jack B]

Indeed, I look forward to playing Mass Effects. I'm just hoping I won't have to get Vista to play it. Next year, of course when it's annouced for PC. When Bethsoft releases more info on Fallout 3 ;)

Yes, I'd guess it will come out for the PC as well. Maybe the PS3 as well at some point, but more likely the PC next.

[Reanimated]

Kef and I get into it a lot, so maybe he's just contrarian. In any event, he's never on my case when I'm giving MS shit. Like I didn't hear anything when I was dogging MS for the lack of AF in GRAW and Oblivion, or when I ripped them a new one for their totally busted ass backwards compatability effort.

[Kefkataran]

You seem to take either Sony or Microsoft's side and then get hammered by either camp on a regular basis depending.

I think it's because at times you come out strong on either side, when you do chip in... If someone doesn't know your posting history, you get hammered.

I'm not taking Sony's side. It's silly to say I am. I never once in this thread said, "Man, Sony's doing a wonderful thing." All I said is that MGS4 is a pretty-looking game, and I think Reanimated is mad for even suggesting it's not, although it may not be as good looking as other games.

Kef and I get into it a lot, so maybe he's just contrarian.

Yeah, I'm sure that's it. *rolls eyes*

In any event, he's never on my case when I'm giving MS shit. Like I didn't hear anything when I was dogging MS for the lack of AF in GRAW and Oblivion, or when I ripped them a new one for their totally busted ass backwards compatability effort.

You mean just like how you completely ignore all the agreement I have with the bad feelings towards Sony from all their negative press but the moment I say one game coming out on the PS3 looks good you label me a Sony apologist?

[Jack B]

Kef and I get into it a lot, so maybe he's just contrarian. In any event, he's never on my case when I'm giving MS shit. Like I didn't hear anything when I was dogging MS for the lack of AF in GRAW and Oblivion, or when I ripped them a new one for their totally busted ass backwards compatability effort.

Yep, you're really getting jumped on in this thread. Well, that's what makes Evil Avatar a great site. No one gets a free ride, without being challenged!

And when they do, it's usually pretty good banter instead of the "xyz system rules" type stuff I see on many other sites. Nice fight! Interesting stuff :)

[Kefkataran]

How dare you compliment this flamewar, Jack B?! BAN!

[absolut taco]

Yep, you're really getting jumped on in this thread. Well, that's what makes Evil Avatar a great site. No one gets a free ride, without being challenged!

And when they do, it's usually pretty good banter instead of the "xyz system rules" type stuff I see on many other sites. Nice fight! Interesting stuff :)
Must be the first time I've seen someone getting their ass kissed for trolling. :eek:

[theguido]

Absolutely amazing. A largely inaccurate and misleading article is posted and the anti-Sony zealotards spew forth their irrational bile.

How many misleading anti-Sony articles have been posted lately? Methinks there are some guerrilla marketers or overzealous fanboys in overdrive here.

[Reanimated]

HEY! You labeled me first. You... labeler of people...

[theguido]

I would think Reanimated would know your history. Maybe he didn't mean you were a Sony fan necessarily, just commenting on your Sony position on this particular thread... **try's to keep the peace... ducks** :)

You're giving him much too much credit. He's a zealot, plain and simple and leaps ferociously on anyone who deigns like something he hates. Don't give him credit for fair and rational thought.

[Jack B]

Must be the first time I've seen someone getting their ass kissed for trolling. :eek:

Good point. It is somewhat connected though... Graphics chip power vs MGS4 graphics...

Besides, it kept the thread alive and was fun to watch... This thread will probably die now... so sad... :(

[bKangy]

Quick, keep squabbling, the power is failing!

[Reanimated]

You're giving him much too much credit. He's a zealot, plain and simple and leaps ferociously on anyone who deigns like something he hates. Don't give him credit for fair and rational thought.



Says the zealot.

[Zechs01]

Unreal Tournament 2007 (PS3 & PC)
http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/928371_20060505_screen001.jpg (http://s2.supload.com/free/928371_20060505_screen001.jpg/view/)
Gears of War (Xbox 360)
http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/928234_20060510_screen007.jpg (http://s2.supload.com/free/928234_20060510_screen007.jpg/view/)
UT2007 Looks better to me as far as graphics then Gears of War.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

Qt3 (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=26798) on this article. The consensus is that the PS3 has certain unspecified issues (one guy claims PS3 games are already being "gimped" relative to their 360 counterparts), but the Inquirer doesn't know what they're talking about and the read speeds (for the time being at least) aren't really the problem. There's some more discussion in the Slashdot comments (http://games.slashdot.org/games/06/06/05/0933239.shtml), but Slashdot is unreadable so you don't need to bother with that.

[absolut taco]

UT2007 Looks better to me as far as graphics then Gears of War.
Reanimated will say that the UT2K7 guy's eye scar is of unacceptable low resolution.

[Zechs01]

lol probably, which do you think looks better? Both pictures were posted May 10 2006 on Gamespot

[bKangy]

Honestly, there's not that much difference. Nor do I care that much. They both look good, I'll see which one pleases me most on play.

[Kamalot]

Unreal Tournament 2007 (PS3 & PC)
http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/928371_20060505_screen001.jpg (http://s2.supload.com/free/928371_20060505_screen001.jpg/view/)
Gears of War (Xbox 360)
http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/928234_20060510_screen007.jpg (http://s2.supload.com/free/928234_20060510_screen007.jpg/view/)
UT2007 Looks better to me as far as graphics then Gears of War.
Isn't UT running on a PC for this screen shot?

Edit: BTW, that is the WORST Gears of War shot I've ever seen. :D

[Zechs01]

ya its running on PC,
Edit: well it was the best GoW gamespot had it was posted on their site on May 10, 2006 so im guessing it came from E306

[Mason]

Kef and I get into it a lot, so maybe he's just contrarian.
Rationality only seems contrary to the irrational.

When there's (yet another) anti-Sony thread that turns out to have no basis in fact, just learn to move on. And perhaps wonder why it is that you're so reflexively anti-Sony that you don't question remarkable claims like those made in the OP, and even when they're widely debunked you can't stop ragging on the PS3. Why wouldn't you just stop?

Everyone just needs to stop being fucking platform evangelicals. It seems like Nintendo and MS fans have this weird internal narrative, where Sony ran away with the last generation because fans WEREN'T LOUD ENOUGH ABOUT HOW MUCH THE PS2 SUCKS. Everyone is convinced that if their side doesn't put in a good showing on these obscure message boards, the games they love and cherish (perhaps too much) will disappear from the earth. Remember, your purchases are an extension of your deepest inner self, and you're less of a man if you back a second- or third-place platform.

Like, if you don't scream about the PS3's price in every possible thread, millions of people will go out and pick up a PS3 without giving its high price a second thought. They won't even notice, and they certainly won't be able to accurately judge for themselves whether or not the console is worth the money. The poor fools, enjoying their inferior games without being aware of how badly they've been screwed. That's not the proper way to have fun! Having fun is serious business, and can not be left to the personal choice of uninformed amateurs!

[Zanzibar]

lol probably, which do you think looks better? Both pictures were posted May 10 2006 on Gamespot

ROFL - way to cherry-pick the absolute worst GoW shot they had. You should work for the Bush Administration.

Try these. (http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/gearsofwar/screenindex.html)

GoW looks just as good, if not better.

[Zechs01]

well to me it looked like the best one i had but i cant really tell theres finger prints and dust all over my monitor

[torrefaction]

well to me it looked like the best one i had but i cant really tell theres finger prints and dust all over my monitor

So then you're probably not the best one to be pointing out better graphics on particular systems, now are you? :cool:

[Zanzibar]

For a REAL comparison, we should look at the realtime E3 demos of X360 Gears of War versus PS3's Killzone 2!

...oh. Nevermind.

[mightbe]

Kef is such a tool. For JUSTICE!

At this point it's too early to judge anything about the PS3. I want hardware and the game in question in hand before I can really decide about its quality.

That said, all of the shots so far in this thread look rather pretty to me. All games I wouldn't mind getting my hands on. I'm most excited for Gears of War as I crave quality shooters.

Nothing really excites me yet about Mass Effect. It does have aliens though. I like aliens. I guess.

MGS4 would have me a lot more excited for it if I didn't think it would be at least two to three years before I get to play it (it takes a long time to save up that many pennies).

[Vanthar]

I dunno that GOW shot has some pretty muddy textures. I don't think I'll be putting up with that garbage from my next-gen games.

[Dag-Sabot]

That's not the proper way to have fun! Having fun is serious business, and can not be left to the personal choice of uninformed amateurs!
Cynical much?
Theres plenty of 360 negativity to be had if you hunt around for it. The trouble is that *** delivered a semi decent product within [my] budget and on time (sorta). And its really hard to shoot them down for it.
Unlike the ps3 gaffes which just spool out of that corporation like so much cheap toilet paper.
Is it me or have they been showing prerendered "game play videos" for the last 2 E3's? ..Meanwhile, the wii steals the show and MS has a console, XBL and a small pile of games on the market...TODAY.

[Reanimated]

Rationality only seems contrary to the irrational.

When there's (yet another) anti-Sony thread that turns out to have no basis in fact, just learn to move on. And perhaps wonder why it is that you're so reflexively anti-Sony that you don't question remarkable claims like those made in the OP, and even when they're widely debunked you can't stop ragging on the PS3. Why wouldn't you just stop?

Everyone just needs to stop being fucking platform evangelicals. It seems like Nintendo and MS fans have this weird internal narrative, where Sony ran away with the last generation because fans WEREN'T LOUD ENOUGH ABOUT HOW MUCH THE PS2 SUCKS. Everyone is convinced that if their side doesn't put in a good showing on these obscure message boards, the games they love and cherish (perhaps too much) will disappear from the earth. Remember, your purchases are an extension of your deepest inner self, and you're less of a man if you back a second- or third-place platform.

Like, if you don't scream about the PS3's price in every possible thread, millions of people will go out and pick up a PS3 without giving its high price a second thought. They won't even notice, and they certainly won't be able to accurately judge for themselves whether or not the console is worth the money. The poor fools, enjoying their inferior games without being aware of how badly they've been screwed. That's not the proper way to have fun! Having fun is serious business, and can not be left to the personal choice of uninformed amateurs!



I don't think I've ever seen anyone wax philosophical with such a MASSIVE PILE OF SELF-IMPORTANT, DELUDED BULLSHIT.

Wow. It's almost as if you sat down, pen and paper in hand, and decided to come up with a way to pack as much bullshit as humanly possible into 3 paragraphs. Good work, buddy. I think you've got ALMOST as much bullshit in there as Bush's last State of the Union address.

[Banacek]

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/439/wargames0ff.jpg

A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?

[RMan]

It seems like Nintendo and MS fans have this weird internal narrative, where Sony ran away with the last generation because fans WEREN'T LOUD ENOUGH ABOUT HOW MUCH THE PS2 SUCKS.
Yea, I definitely think you're right about that. I think that many people around here feel the PS2 was just a fluke, that everyone should have clearly seen that if it's possibly 10% less powerful then it's absolutely 100% less fun. I think that the people that are actually unhappy with something if they can identify a graphic shortcomming in a screenshot are suffering from a yet unnamed obsessive disorder :).

[Shifteh]

...talk about a steak in the heart

Hahahhahahahahahhahaa

[Zeal]

What's funny is that no one in this thread actually knows how the PS3 operates, nor the 360 for that matter. Unless you're developing a game on either system, your opinion is irrelevant.

[absolut taco]

What's funny is that no one in this thread actually knows how the PS3 operates, nor the 360 for that matter. Unless you're developing a game on either system, your opinion is irrelevant.
The fuck I don't know how the 360 operates! You push the big button light thingie and then some stuff happens on the screen gizmo and then you pull on the little sticks. See, I'm an expert!!! ;)

[Phanto]

We will just have to wait and see... what really will happend.

[[VSK]BadCRC]

Well this article may or may not be complete bullshit, but has anyone ever stopped to question why, to date, we haven't seen a single PS3 game running on PS3 hardware? Everything shown so far has been on emulators on PCs.

I can't recall one instance that we knew for definitive proof that anything shown so far is actually being run on actual PS3 hardware.


Anyone else wonder if they'll actually be ready to launch in November at the rate they're going?

[ProfPuppet]

There's some more discussion in the Slashdot comments (http://games.slashdot.org/games/06/06/05/0933239.shtml), but Slashdot is unreadable so you don't need to bother with that.

Okay, so it's not just me that finds the Slashdot commenting system almost unreadable.

Also, as to the thread:

DIFFERING OPINIONS! LOUD VOICES!

[bean19]

Story isn't true. I've seen playable games at E3 and they looked like X360 games. . . admittedly, they were on PC's emulating PS3's, but I expect that the hardware will play these games when the hardware is completed.

[overdrivechao]

That's cool, and I'm just saying it looks like baby diarrhea. Especially when placed in a comparative analysis against other next-gen titles.

The visual elements that you call "muddy" (or diarrhea) and such I believe are very much on purpose. The visual "style" of the MGS series is very consistent, because it concerns itself more with character development and atmoshpere than a game like Gears of War is likely to. Not every texture in life is meant to reflect and radiate bloom. Shiny next gen games look cool... like PDZ, for example, but it doesn't mean the game has any more depth than an ATI demo. I am going to have a hard time justifying $600 for MGS, but maybe once DMC4, RE5, and others are out I will change my mind.

[Reanimated]

Yeah, I'm sure all that low res texturing is totally on purpose. I'm convinced.

BTW, RE5 is announced for 360 :)

[overdrivechao]

Yeah, I'm sure all that low res texturing is totally on purpose. I'm convinced.

BTW, RE5 is announced for 360 :)

Snake's mustache contains the same polygon count as an entire enemy soldier in MGS3. Yup. Low res.

An Xbox finally gets a Resident Evil! Good for 360 owners!

[Kamalot]

Snake's mustache contains the same polygon count as an entire enemy soldier in MGS3. Yup. Low res.

An Xbox finally gets a Resident Evil! Good for 360 owners! Number of polygons is not the same as texture quality.

[bean19]

The visual elements that you call "muddy" (or diarrhea) and such I believe are very much on purpose. The visual "style" of the MGS series is very consistent, because it concerns itself more with character development and atmoshpere than a game like Gears of War is likely to. Not every texture in life is meant to reflect and radiate bloom. Shiny next gen games look cool... like PDZ, for example, but it doesn't mean the game has any more depth than an ATI demo. I am going to have a hard time justifying $600 for MGS, but maybe once DMC4, RE5, and others are out I will change my mind.

MGS 4 looks freaking brilliant. . . why are you discussing it as a negative example? Refute the premise! This story is false.

[karak]

I don't think you know what you're talking about. Assuming that they prerecorded all these other things, like collisions and physics is crazy, it’d be more work to do it that way. The only thing that is likely unused in this type of thing is AI, but the vast majority of what taxes a game system is clearly in use in their demonstration.
Woh...what? Actually it is NOT more work to do it that way at all. Programming around scripted events to up the graphics capability is every bit easier. When considering resources, we usually set aside more than 35% of the system just for good AI and if your using Havoc you have various levels of use that you can impliment in a game every succesive level using more system power and memory.

[Citizen Philip]

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/439/wargames0ff.jpg

A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?

I liked your TV detective show. White hair and cigarellos, FTW

[Zechs01]

Does this image not have enough detail for you?
http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/926596_20060509_screen003.jpg (http://s2.supload.com/free/926596_20060509_screen003.jpg/view/)
Edit: looked better on gamespot so here is the link to the images
http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/adventure/metalgearsolid4/screenindex.html
Edit Again: that picture of the woman you used Reanimation in your comparison was the worse detailed out of all the images on gamespot.

[bean19]

Does this image not have enough detail for you?
http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/926596_20060509_screen003.jpg (http://s2.supload.com/free/926596_20060509_screen003.jpg/view/)
Edit: looked better on gamespot so here is the link to the images
http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/adventure/metalgearsolid4/screenindex.html
Edit Again: that picture of the woman you used Reanimation in your comparison was the worse detailed out of all the images on gamespot.

Okay, I think this story is probably crap because I've seen games that look as good as the X360 games being played at E3 (though they were emulated on PC).

Still, that picture doesn't prove anything as it is probably not fully-rendered in the game engine. . . it's just playing back a movie. Thus, it's graphics could be as good as those in a Pixar film and any system (and even DVD players) could play it. :) You have to judge graphics based on in-game graphics. Videos will run on anything.

[Zechs01]

Okay, I think this story is probably crap because I've seen games that look as good as the X360 games being played at E3 (though they were emulated on PC).

Still, that picture doesn't prove anything as it is probably not fully-rendered in the game engine. . . it's just playing back a movie. Thus, it's graphics could be as good as those in a Pixar film and any system (and even DVD players) could play it. :) You have to judge graphics based on in-game graphics. Videos will run on anything.
Try telling that to Reanimated

[RMan]

When considering resources, we usually set aside more than 35% of the system just for good AI and if your using Havoc you have various levels of use that you can impliment in a game every succesive level using more system power and memory.
If your team needs anything near 35% of a modern system's CPU to do the AI for a MGS game or anything in that video then they should be fired, they suck. There was also nothing I saw in the video that was even remotely demanding enough on a modern physics engine to require preprocessing. I would agree that there are theoretical situations where AI and physics could cripple a modern CPU and make prerecording necessary, but we're talking about this presentation and there's nothing I saw that'd make that worthwhile. The things presented that are demanding are almost entirely visual elements that cannot be prerecorded.

[TragicComic]

This is kind of like the PS2's lack of hardware antialiasing, albeit with potentially bigger consequences.

PS2 had hardware anti-aliasing. And it was actually pretty cool when it worked (it was ploygon anti-aliasing that did an alpha blend based on the pixel coverage), but the polygons had to be sorted back front, and there were errors at triangle corners that met other corners (it created little "pimples"), so it was functionaly useless given the weak processor speed (in my last game, we spent about 25 percent of the CPU simply finding the objects to render, sorting them would have been impossible given the number of objects). Ok, that was off topic.

To get back on topic, SONY BONY is notorious for under-delivering on the performance of their hardware. I still have some documentation from the first ps2 dev's conference which has a slide that says "In Practice, the GS is so overpowered that it will hardly ever be the bottleneck" HA HA HA! I guess they never thought anyone would want to do full-screen effects, particles, or scenes that have any overdraw (virtually every game I've shipped on PS2 was limited by the GS).

The PSP is also woefully underpowered. Most people were expecting a PS2 in the palm of your hand, but that's not nearly what they got.

So don't expect SONY BONY to give you a clear idea of what their box can really do.

[Siraris]

Okay, I think this story is probably crap because I've seen games that look as good as the X360 games being played at E3 (though they were emulated on PC).

Still, that picture doesn't prove anything as it is probably not fully-rendered in the game engine. . . it's just playing back a movie. Thus, it's graphics could be as good as those in a Pixar film and any system (and even DVD players) could play it. :) You have to judge graphics based on in-game graphics. Videos will run on anything.

Find me one 360 game that looks as good as MGS4 and I'll eat my keyboard. Simply the fact that this game is a first generation PS3 title that isn't even completed yet, and you are comparing it to E3 titles for the 360, shows the weakness of your argument.

Furthermore, anyone who hasn't been living in a cave knows that the MGS4 demo was fully-rendered in the game engine. I don't see why it couldn't be, it's just normal mapped models, volumetric fog, damn good texture work, and use of the highly regarded filters provided by the RSX.

Everyone is jumping on the power of the PS3 and the 360 and it's futile and silly. The PS3 is more powerful of a console, that is clear, but not 1000x better. It's not going to render real time caustics any time soon. The real battle comes down to developer support, and Sony just has it over Microsoft. I haven't seen one EXCLUSIVE title for the 360 that interests me, which is why I haven't bought one yet. Gears of War looks fantastic, but I can buy it for my PC.

I really believe that Japan makes many of the best quality games in the world, and Microsoft hasn't convinced Japan to throw any support behind it's system. I got to play Okami, which is a game developed by Capcom coming out in the US in September, and it's without a doubt one of the coolest most visually stunning games I've ever seen, and it is for the PS2. The PS2 is such a pain in the rear to develop for, and yet Capcom has spent years and millions of dollars developing it for the PS2. This game is a system seller, hands down, and yet Microsoft isn't persuing system sellers, it's just gathering up ports and first party titles, and they don't have enough first party titles to keep them afloat. It's the same thing that happened to Nintendo, I used to LOVE Nintendo until they lost all the third party developer support they had. They have redeemed themselves a bit since N64, but if they don't have a strong 3rd party exclusive showing on the Wii, it's going to have even more of an uphill battle even with the innovative controller. Sony has the developer support which I believe is substantially more important than more polygons.

[Jack B]

Find me one 360 game that looks as good as MGS4 and I'll eat my keyboard. Simply the fact that this game is a first generation PS3 title that isn't even completed yet, and you are comparing it to E3 titles for the 360, shows the weakness of your argument.

Furthermore, anyone who hasn't been living in a cave knows that the MGS4 demo was fully-rendered in the game engine. I don't see why it couldn't be, it's just normal mapped models, volumetric fog, damn good texture work, and use of the highly regarded filters provided by the RSX.

Everyone is jumping on the power of the PS3 and the 360 and it's futile and silly. The PS3 is more powerful of a console, that is clear, but not 1000x better. It's not going to render real time caustics any time soon. The real battle comes down to developer support, and Sony just has it over Microsoft. I haven't seen one EXCLUSIVE title for the 360 that interests me, which is why I haven't bought one yet. Gears of War looks fantastic, but I can buy it for my PC.

I really believe that Japan makes many of the best quality games in the world, and Microsoft hasn't convinced Japan to throw any support behind it's system. I got to play Okami, which is a game developed by Capcom coming out in the US in September, and it's without a doubt one of the coolest most visually stunning games I've ever seen, and it is for the PS2. The PS2 is such a pain in the rear to develop for, and yet Capcom has spent years and millions of dollars developing it for the PS2. This game is a system seller, hands down, and yet Microsoft isn't persuing system sellers, it's just gathering up ports and first party titles, and they don't have enough first party titles to keep them afloat. It's the same thing that happened to Nintendo, I used to LOVE Nintendo until they lost all the third party developer support they had. They have redeemed themselves a bit since N64, but if they don't have a strong 3rd party exclusive showing on the Wii, it's going to have even more of an uphill battle even with the innovative controller. Sony has the developer support which I believe is substantially more important than more polygons.

It's always amusing to read your posts. They reek of fanboy, but I really believe you imagine yourself with an objective fact based position...

[Kefkataran]

I like Tragicomic cause his name is Tragicomic and it reminds me of Shakespeare class. I hope he sticks around. :D

[Jack B]

I like Tragicomic cause his name is Tragicomic and it reminds me of Shakespeare class. I hope he sticks around. :D

Yeah, that's a good one. I see a really good one every so often.

I was racing in Moto GP the other day and noticed I was right behind "Popiturd". That cracked me up. :D

[karak]

If your team needs anything near 35% of a modern system's CPU to do the AI for a MGS game or anything in that video then they should be fired, they suck. There was also nothing I saw in the video that was even remotely demanding enough on a modern physics engine to require preprocessing. I would agree that there are theoretical situations where AI and physics could cripple a modern CPU and make prerecording necessary, but we're talking about this presentation and there's nothing I saw that'd make that worthwhile. The things presented that are demanding are almost entirely visual elements that cannot be prerecorded.
Actually they don't suck, but you seem to be excited by that so maybe your on the wrong forum and should seek your entertainment at an adult personals forum. It's ALWAYS a practice to set aside more rather than less and you 'Sir' obviously have no clue as to how to program nor do you have any clue as to resource management. GOOD AI takes plenty of resources, bad AI takes very little. Look it up, read a book if you can and perhaps you can say something a little more (edumacated) next time and get to use your big boy voice. And I am proud to say I have made a living at this now for going on seven years though I am not a millionare so SFU about my team or myself.

[Siraris]

Actually they don't suck, but you seem to be excited by that so maybe your on the wrong forum and should seek your entertainment at an adult personals forum. It's ALWAYS a practice to set aside more rather than less and you 'Sir' obviously have no clue as to how to program nor do you have any clue as to resource management. GOOD AI takes plenty of resources, bad AI takes very little. Look it up, read a book if you can and perhaps you can say something a little more (edumacated) next time and get to use your big boy voice. And I am proud to say I have made a living at this now for going on seven years though I am not a millionare so SFU about my team or myself.


I highly doubt anyone who is a professinal programmer would ever talk like this on a forum, and anyone who works on developing AI and thinks that just because your AI uses more resources it's better, obviously isn't a very good AI programmer.

[RMan]

It's ALWAYS a practice to set aside more rather than less and you 'Sir' obviously have no clue as to how to program nor do you have any clue as to resource management. GOOD AI takes plenty of resources, bad AI takes very little.
Hehe, apparently you may be one of those people I suggested should be fired. Well, I’ve been doing this professionally for far longer (if you feel that’s relevant), and I know plenty about it. Good AI or bad AI, like gameplay, is not directly related to how much resources you allocate to it, as you suggest. More resources can make AI perform better, but the difference between bad AI and good AI is determined by the designer, not the CPU time spent processing (like running bad graphics at higher resolution makes it look better, but it’s still comparatively bad). Regardless, if you estimate the AI processing required for the MGS4 demonstration should require 35% of a modern system’s resources then your design skills need much refinement, or you lack insight. Also, this isn't the argument you should deride my knowledge of programming and managing system resources, if I think it’s easy, and you think it’s insanely demanding, then likely your skills are the ones falling short.

[Jack B]

:D I highly doubt anyone who is a professinal programmer would ever talk like this on a forum, and anyone who works on developing AI and thinks that just because your AI uses more resources it's better, obviously isn't a very good AI programmer.

Siraris,

What? You "highly doubt" a professional programmer would talk like that????

Now that's funny. I've worked in the software business for 20+ years. Believe me programmers are human like you and me.

What industry do you work in?

They aren't Priest's. Some talk like sailors... some talk like Hulk Hogan... some talk like Liberace... some have Southern accents... some are even from other countries... Wow, how exotic... other countries... really... Do you mean some don't even speak English... Wow....

"Gee Mister Wizard, do you mean programmers are people just like you and me?". "Yes, Siraris, just like you and me. Only smarter than you..." :D

I get so sick of your confusing your opinions with facts. It's not OBVIOUS that Karak isn't a very good AI programmer. Who the HELL ARE YOU to judge based on this thread.

It's also not OBVIOUS, that a programmer wouldn't talk like that...

Now are you going to say, it's OBVIOUS that people like me, don't talk like me or some stupid FACT you'll come up with in your next post.

And try using the term "IMO" as in in my opinion once in a while.

[Siraris]

:D

Siraris,

What? You "highly doubt" a professional programmer would talk like that????

Now that's funny. I've worked in the software business for 20+ years. Believe me programmers are human like you and me.

What industry do you work in?

They aren't Priest's. Some talk like sailors... some talk like Hulk Hogan... some talk like Liberace... some have Southern accents... some are even from other countries... Wow, how exotic... other countries... really... Do you mean some don't even speak English... Wow....

"Gee Mister Wizard, do you mean programmers are people just like you and me?". "Yes, Siraris, just like you and me. Only smarter than you..." :D

I get so sick of your confusing your opinions with facts. It's not OBVIOUS that Karak isn't a very good AI programmer. Who the HELL ARE YOU to judge based on this thread.

It's also not OBVIOUS, that a programmer wouldn't talk like that...

Now are you going to say, it's OBVIOUS that people like me, don't talk like me or some stupid FACT you'll come up with in your next post.

And try using the term "IMO" as in in my opinion once in a while.

Wow, you're taking this awful personally for it not even being directed at you. I have been around on the internet for a long time now, and I have been around enough professionals who post on the internet to know that someone who is a mature adult would not respond to a post like karak did. Telling someone to frequent an adult entertainment forum or saying that RMan has no clue how to program, does that seem like a professional to you? It sounds more like a teenager who is trying to be cocky and sound smart on a messageboard.

I'm glad that you've worked in the industry for 20+ years, give yourself a pat on the back. I don't have any idea why that has anything to do with this discussion other than boosting your ego. It should be perfectly clear that anyone who would achieve the title of AI programmer, would understand that just because AI code uses more resources, doesn't mean that it will outperform code that uses less resources. It could just end up being slower and nothing else. That isn't a very complicated concept to understand, in fact, it's extremely basic. Now, since you've been in the software industry for 20+ years, you should know that AI programmers are not very commonplace. They are invariably very highly skilled individuals. Karak making this statement is like someone saying that since merge sort has more lines of code than quick sort, merge sort must be better. Being a member of the software industry for 20+ years, this should make perfect sense to you.

No, it is not a fact that Karak is not a professional programmer, but based upon his post, I am drawing that conclusion. It is not fact, nor am I saying it is fact, it is my opinion. Just like RMan feels that Karaks skills need refinement, or he needs refinement. Since I don't know nor will I ever know Karak, he could be anyone in the world. He could be a 350 pound woman from Tulsa Oklahoma who sells lawn chair furniture, I will never know until I get proof. Based upon what I have, though, he seems like an immature flamer who wants to put down the PS3 and Metal Gear Solid 4, based on a loose knowledge of programming and AI theory.

[karak]

What? Read my initial post, this was not slight on the ps3 and you have proven that you didn't read it by ASSUMING. Just like..wait for it...you assumed from my thread post that I had an issue with the ps3. I also drive an Acura...wait for it...what else can you assume from that?
This is stupid. I will leave this thread in the hands of experts like you and Rman ASSUMING that you both can program your own responses that please you.

[RMan]

What? Read my initial post, this was not slight on the ps3 and you have proven that you didn't read it by ASSUMING.
I made no such assumption, since I don't believe I mentioned the PS3 in my responses to you I do not think this proves an unsumption (at least on my part). I have been talking about modern hardware, which is what I think the PS3 is. I have no particular love or bias for any next generation hardware, except for the Wii controller.

Edit: Just noticed, perhaps you didn't mean I assumed the PS3 part. Oh well, still hopefully clarifies my position.

[Jack B]

I have been around enough professionals who post on the internet to know that someone who is a mature adult would not respond to a post like karak did.

Siraris,

OK, if you want me to respond.. I'll bite.

You called out Karak and I'd like you to back that up. You say you know programming, so let's talk about your experience. I'll tell you what I do and you tell me what you do.

I'll go first, so we'll be even. I work selling software to typically C&V level executives and IT. It's about 70% IT and the rest business. We sell to 80% of the Fortune 100. I sell in the US, but we are global with a market cap of about $4-5 billion. We run on all the major flavors of UNIX including Linux as well as NT.

Now, you're turn. How do you know so much about professional programmers and how they act or speak to people? Describe the company you work for, your role and how long you've been around professional programmers...

...I will never know until I get proof. Based upon what I have, though, he seems like an immature flamer who wants to put down the PS3 and Metal Gear Solid 4, based on a loose knowledge of programming and AI theory.

OK, I need to learn more about your "non-loose" knowledge of programming and AI theory. I don't need the name of the exact company, just some solid credentials.

I'm not claiming to be competent to get into a technical discussion about AI programming, so don't ask. You are making that claim. I'm in sales, you're claiming to be quite competent technically and able to judge a professional programmer.

Whether you read a lot on the Internet or spend 70 hours a week programming in assembly for Sony, I don't know, but my guess is your experience is a wee bit short of John Carmack's.

Or is it?

[mightbe]

Predicted response: "My penis is bigger than your penis."

[Mr.Condescension]

JackB, I find it odd that you prefer to argue with the lesser qualified person in the thread. A 2nd programmer who claims more experience plainly states that he thinks 35% is way inflated for AI, but you can't help but attack the weakest link.

Siraris argument may have not been valid, but ignoring the much better argument to go after him isn't exactly a noble or worthwhile pursuit.

[Jack B]

Does this image not have enough detail for you?
http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/926596_20060509_screen003.jpg (http://s2.supload.com/free/926596_20060509_screen003.jpg/view/)
Edit: looked better on gamespot so here is the link to the images
http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/adventure/metalgearsolid4/screenindex.html
Edit Again: that picture of the woman you used Reanimation in your comparison was the worse detailed out of all the images on gamespot.

Zechs01,

I'm not expert, but those images do look really good IMO for the faces anyway (didn't spend any time comparing walls, buildings etc.). Not big on the green color palette, but they look pretty good to me.

We'll see if it looks that good on release in motion, but some of those character images look great. The facial detail is impressive.

I do wonder why we continue commenting/debating on CGI or potentially "in game" images/video. I say potentially, because I trust no one. Sony, Microsoft, well maybe Nintendo a bit...

It's fun, I guess... :)

[Jack B]

JackB, I find it odd that you prefer to argue with the lesser qualified person in the thread. A 2nd programmer who claims more experience plainly states that he thinks 35% is way inflated for AI, but you can't help but attack the weakest link.

Siraris argument may have not been valid, but ignoring the much better argument to go after him isn't exactly a noble or worthwhile pursuit.

Mr. Condescension,

My apologies. I didn't even read the entire thread. I have no opinion on who's right or wrong in this discussion.

My beef is specifically with Siraris. I've seen his posts before and I'm tired of him making technical claims. He bugs the hell out of me.

I don't mean to take sides on this issue, just with Siraris' qualifications around programming and AI etc. I saw his post. Read it and noticed he called out Karak for not speaking like a "professional programmer".

That's my beef. I don't even have any idea if Karak is a professional programmer or not. I just suspect Siraris isn't and I'm calling him out on it. He say's he's qualified. Let's hear it then...

It's a side fight actually with Siraris and me.... pretty much unrelated to the original fight. Siraris could actually be right on this post for all I know. :D

This is more about getting Siraris figured out for future reference, as I know I'll see shit from him again and again.... ;)

Carry on. My bad. Didn't mean to stop the original fight...

[Mr.Condescension]

My apologies. I didn't even read the entire thread. I have no opinion on who's right or wrong in this discussion....

...Carry on. My bad. Didn't mean to stop the original fight...

Wow...not the response I had expected, with the way you and Siraris fight on these boards.

I read the entire thread myself, but it took so long I don't know what the argument was, aside from the usual "P$3 sucks!" "No it doesn't!" "Yes it does!" "But it isn't even out yet!" "But it's from $ony. MS is GOD!"

I do have to admit, as a Network Administrator, that using 35% of your cpu cycles for AI seems quite a bit off, unless it's a card game or some other type of strategy game (think Magic: The Gathering).

Generally, I think there are compelling arguments in the console war for both sides, but the Sony fans are quite heavily outnumbered on EvAv, if the "which console do you own" is any indication. More Xbox owners than PS2 owners? That doesn't happen very often. Thankfully, I live in CA where $400-600 is a lot less than in other areas of the world, and have roommates, so we'll have both systems, if not all 3.

[Jack B]

Wow...not the response I had expected, with the way you and Siraris fight on these boards.

I read the entire thread myself, but it took so long I don't know what the argument was, aside from the usual "P$3 sucks!" "No it doesn't!" "Yes it does!" "But it isn't even out yet!" "But it's from $ony. MS is GOD!"

I do have to admit, as a Network Administrator, that using 35% of your cpu cycles for AI seems quite a bit off, unless it's a card game or some other type of strategy game (think Magic: The Gathering).

Generally, I think there are compelling arguments in the console war for both sides, but the Sony fans are quite heavily outnumbered on EvAv, if the "which console do you own" is any indication. More Xbox owners than PS2 owners? That doesn't happen very often. Thankfully, I live in CA where $400-600 is a lot less than in other areas of the world, and have roommates, so we'll have both systems, if not all 3.

Mr.Condescension,

:D Ha! I bet, I'd come to the same conclusion if I had read the entire thread!

Yeah, the more I learn about the PS3, the more likely I am to buy one. It's not that I think it's a great value, it's just that I'm fortunate to have paid enough dues, that a console price isn't really an issue for my favorite hobby.

Plus, there will be many games, I'd enjoy on the PS3. I own a 360 and am very satisfied, but since I enjoy games. What the hell.

For at least the next 12 months or longer, the PS3 will be at a real disadvantage in quantity of quality title, but at some point they may have some sweet AAA titles.

I'd like to have both systems. And a Wii for my younger relatives, poker friends kids, barbecues and all those people I know, who'd have fun for 1/2 hour playing Wii Sports, but would never sit down and play Gears of War or MGS4.

I think Microsoft is going in the direction, I want gaming to go, so I'm a big fan of what they're doing, but all consoles will have some excellent titles.

I agree with your comments about XYZ Console sucks etc. I think the majority of it would go away if everyone had enough money to buy all the consoles each generation. By the end of that generation you may have your favorite for valid reasons, but the XYZ sucks attitude will largely go away.

Kind of like bigotry in real life. It typically exists for a lack of understanding, experience and exposure to the unknown...

[karak]

I keep rereading my original post. I stated 35% for AI in addition to Physics including collision detecting becuase I was attempting to make a point that various things aside from graphics affect system performance, not just AI as I said in my post concerning Havoc and original party Physics systems. This is from a typical 100% threshold(Hypothetical performance of the game engine under optimium-in this case xbox360-situation. Later as the build progresses performance is measured and things can be scaled up or down from there as programming continues through the phases.
Lets be honest. My real beef is that I was misquoted by someone concerning my original post anyone else can look into what I have written and check it out for themselves. Anyone can adjust numbers to suit their case(myself included if I wanted) however I didn't as I was the original poster that caused this small uproar and wasn't trying to dispprove anything like everyone else. I was simply stating that AI and Physics can take a tremendous toll on the various subsystems. I can't do anything about what anyone else wants to think.

[Mr.Condescension]

Everyone will have their opinions about what system they like best, but usually those opinions seem to have most to do with what types of games you like, not who makes the hardware or what it can do. Whether the Xbox or the PS3 looks better now is irrelevant, and whether the Xbox or the PS3 will look better in 5 years is also irrelevant.

I, for instance, have all 3 systems of the last generation, but prefer the PS2. Some of my friends prefer the other two, based solely on what types of games they like. My roommate likes shooters, soccer, and racing games, so he's an xbox fan. Another friend *loves* 1st party nintendo games, so it's the cube. Myself, I like a broad variety of games (jRPGs, Action, Stealth, aRPGs, Strategy, Rhythm, Adventure/Exploration, 3PS, Horror), many of which are made in Japan, so that's the direction I lean in.

I think, though, that people sometimes forget why they like a console, or a company, and make it personal. Someone will try to convince me I should like the Xbox 360 more than the PS3 saying it has the better games, but what they really mean is that it has the better games that *they* like. I think it's a bit of a logical disconnect.