Moore discusses larger hard drives and backwards compatibility

[Everlost_MI]

Gamesindustry.biz (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/) has posted an article (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=17398) where Peter Moore discusses Microsoft's plans regarding larger hard drives and backwards compatibility for the Xbox 360.

Here's an interesting bit from it...
"Nobody is concerned anymore about backwards compatibility. We under promised and over delivered on that. It's a very complicated thing... very complex work. I'm just stunned that we have hundreds of games that are backwards compatible," he said.

That doesn't mean we won't get more backwards-compatible games - indeed, "more are coming" - but "at some point, you just go, there's enough, let's move on, or people aren't as worried about a game being backwards compatible - and I like to think we've upheld our end of the bargain in making at least two or maybe three hundred games backwards compat."

Thoughts? Comments? Rants?

[Heretic Machine]

Gamesindustry.biz (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/) has posted an article (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=17398) where Peter Moore discusses Microsoft's plans regarding larger hard drives and backwards compatibility for the Xbox 360.

Here's an interesting bit from it...


Thoughts? Comments? Rants?

Did that piece of shit just say that they OVER DELIVERED on backwards compatability? Seriously, if he was here in front of me right now, he would of gotten a baseball bat upside his head. He has just brought out a kind of hate from me that only Ken has been able to harness.

I think I might buy a PS3 now...

EDIT: You might of also wanted to add in these quotes...

"Our goal is to have every Xbox game work on Xbox 360," Xbox PR manager Michael Wolf told GamesIndustry.biz

Moore:
and I like to think we've upheld our end of the bargain in making at least two or maybe three hundred games backwards compat.

[cubebomb]

Did that piece of shit just say that they OVER DELIVERED on backwards compatability? Seriously, if he was here in front of me right now, he would of gotten a baseball bat upside his head. He has just brought out a kind of hate from me that only Ken has been able to harness.

I think I might buy a PS3 now...

Awsome^.^ :D
Is there a name for your club, I will like to join!.

[jeffool]

Join? Hell, I'd like for Perigon's club to bash a new tattoo into this guy! I mean, get me Psychonauts working and we'll possibly maybe think about talking about a list of 'must haves' to write this topic off as 'okay, fine, enough to forgive'. Until then, fuck this guy.

/edit: Also, Spider-Man 2 and the online component of Tetris Worlds. I mean, c'mon. It's no wonder I've been tempted to buy an Xbox to replace my broken one instead of an X360, leaving me undecided and buying neither for the past few months.

[bapenguin]

Wow...the only thing backwards there was his statement.

Undelivered and over promised you ass.

[JG_ZERO]

Wow, this is messed up. It would be a sad news story to have Peter Moore say "oh backwards compatibility? yeah we screwed that up. and umm.. we give up. Sorry" But he is basically setting the stage for MS to quit updating AND telling us that we got more than we deserved. Damn.

[swiftdraw]

Nobody is concerned anymore about backwards compatibility.

Does he mean no one at Micorsoft is concerned, or does he actually think that consumers aren't concerned? And really, which is worse?

[Borys]

Big corporations lie to consumers?

Surprise, surprise!!!

Sony is no better than Microsoft and vice versa.

[Demize99]

Did anyone buy an x360 expecting to then purchase old xbox games and play them on their shiney new 360? Seriously?

This backwards compatability thing sounds like a bonus feature they worked in for a few cross gen games. I don't think anyone would be complaining if they had just said "sorry, they won't work on the x360."

[Borys]

Sometimes I act like Kamalot. Draft, slap me in the face!

David Hufford: Microsoft Xbox group product manager

http://news.com.com/2100-1043_3-5709353.html


The perception is that it is significant. We've put all our energy into new titles, but since our consumers have asked for it...we've made it a goal to make all titles backward-compatible.

http://games.kikizo.com/news/200505/160.asp


Microsoft has confirmed to Kikizo that it will eventually provide support for all Xbox games

[phantomhitman]

i am not concerned at all abut backwards compatibility. You can keep your xbox games on your xbox. I like the new games, made for the 360.

[MosBen]

Well, he's right and he's wrong. He's wrong in thinking they over delivered and thinking that they have enough backwards compatibility already. There are still plenty of Xbox games that people would like to play that they can't, particularly games that have been or will be released after the 360 launch.

At the same time, he's right that BC is only relevent for some period of time at the beginning of a console's life. After some critical mass of 360 games have been released, which I think is the point at which you have several Greatest Hits games being sold on the cheap, being able to play old Xbox 1 games is an irrelevent feature. I know there are people out there that are more than happy to chime in that they still pull out PS1 games from time to time, but the fact is that they are almost certainly a very very small minority.

Still, there are definitely some games that I have for Xbox 1 that I wish would work on my 360 yet.

[Mongboy]

I've been lurking around these forums for a while now but this is the first thing that has enraged me enough to post.

It hardly comes as a surprise, we all knew MS's stonewalling could not be a good sign, but I am incredibly angry at the way they have handled it. I feel patronised by the fact they assumed their out right lies would deceive me.

Anyways, I am now going to carve Peter Moore up with a rusty bread knife. I had originally under promised that I would only give him a slap if MS screwed up BC, however I will now make him intimate with the idea of over delivery.

[Steve_Erhardt]

What a flaming crock of bullshit.

Yes, a delightful list of compatible games that include such massive hits at Barbie Horse Adventures, Atari Anthology, a smorgasborg of Cabela hunting games, and Yourself Fitness, while STILL happily ignoring other pissant titles like Mechassault, Mortal Kombat, and Soul Calibur.

What the fuck ever, "Peter". Go eat a dick.

*None of the above lessens my love the 360, mind you... but fuckassed statements like this really piss me off.

[EvilBob46]

I'm looking to buy Ninja Gaiden Black. Does it work flawlessly when emulated? Also, has anyone tried Psychonauts and Jade Empire yet?

[jeffool]

I've been lurking around these forums for a while now but this is the first thing that has enraged me enough to post.

It hardly comes as a surprise, we all knew MS's stonewalling could not be a good sign, but I am incredibly angry at the way they have handled it. I feel patronised by the fact they assumed their out right lies would deceive me.

Anyways, I am now going to carve Peter Moore up with a rusty bread knife. I had originally under promised that I would only give him a slap if MS screwed up BC, however I will now make him intimate with the idea of over delivery.Dear sir, welcome home.

[Evil Avatar]

Wow...the only thing backwards there was his statement.

Undelivered and over promised you ass.

Give that man a boot to the head. What an asshole. They totally drop the ball on backwards compatability and then have the balls to say that they over-delivered???

When only like 10 of my Xbox titles work on my 360, they did something seriously wrong.

[pheriannath]

I kept my original XBox hooked up because I knew they'd drop the ball on backwards compatibility. Too many components in the 360 changed hands (nvidia to ati, intel to ibm, etc) for most games to be easiliy ported over, and I figured as long as they had the Halo games working, MS would think they had done enough.

[Gel214th]

I keep playing Forza Motorsport on my Xbox. I'd like to continue playing Mercenaries but can't, since it didn't make the list.

Those Xbox games look a lot better on my monitor via the Xbox360

[El Gato]

/unlurks

I personally don't really care about BC - not what I bought the box for.

That was a stupid statement from Moore however...

/vanishes

[Savok]

At this rate, Nintendo can have the best PR by simply saying nothing, seems all MS and Sony do is insult people these days.

[Knite]

Thise is a bunch of BS. MS promised backwards compatibility, and damnit, I want my BC! I specifically stopped playing Brothers in Arms : Earned in Blood and Mercenaries for the sheer reason that I had expected MS to deliver me the ability to play them in my 360, AS THEY HAD SAID THEY WOULD (read earlier quotes of thiers... ie goal to make all xbox games compatible, and top sellers would be highest priority. Don't these two count as top sellers?). Fucking horse carcass I tell you.

[Roc Ingersol]

Bwuahahaha.

overdelivered.... yeah... in the same bizarre-o world where 'the ps3 is a premium product'.

[antoniogaud]

Who cares?!?

The only game I play on Xbox360 is Halo2.

Join the 21st Century.

You should have kept your original Xbox like I did.

[Kelegacy]

Wow...the only thing backwards there was his statement.

Undelivered and over promised you ass.
Be nice, bapenguin.

[Vandenh]

BC... I would like it to play some of my unfinished games. I am not angry that BC is bad at the moment but would at least expect MS to continue to expand it for at least one more year.

Bigger HD. Great... it is logical that bigger HDDs will become available for consoles, but what happens with saves? Sony and MS need to find a good solution for that. I would prefer Live to give us a few 100MBs of online storage for saves. Maybe enxt update?

[jeffool]

Be nice, bapenguin.hah, are you kidding? I'm sure that compared to what he feels like saying, that IS being nice. Nice... With attitude. ;)

[NoName]

Well... it's not so bad if the 360 will be your first microsoft console like me...

[LarsenNET]

I'm looking to buy Ninja Gaiden Black. Does it work flawlessly when emulated? Also, has anyone tried Psychonauts and Jade Empire yet?

Ninja Gaiden has framerate problems, Jade Empire works flawlessly, Psychonauts is not compatible.

[Heretic Machine]

Who cares?!?

The only game I play on Xbox360 is Halo2.

Join the 21st Century.

You should have kept your original Xbox like I did.

I DID! But you know what? I stopped buying XBOX games that weren't on that list, because I was told there would be updates on the way, that I'd be able to play them on my 360. And since there is no way to transfer saves between an XBOX and a 360, I wasn't about to buy a game and sit on it until there was a BC update at some undisclosed point in the future.

Then this fucker comes along and tells me that he lied, his company lied, and that I'm his bitch. That is what I derive from his statement there. As if I weren't already close enough to abandoning this hobby as a whole, this piece of shit, this fat-ass sack of garbage tells me that no one cares about backwards compatability, even when there is a HUGE topic on THEIR forums listing games people want to make the BC list.

So this is it, this is the industry that feeds our hobby. It is an industry of crooks, liars, thieves, and shills. I really think that it is time to jump ship and find something else to occupy my time with, something that isn't centered on consumerism and corporate bullshit.

[absolut taco]

Meh, since you don't get achievements for old Xbox games, who cares... ;)

[DropD98]

I admit that his statement was completely crappy, and it's absolute bullshit that you would say you are committed to getting all the old Xbox title to work under the 360, and then say almost the opposite months after the launch of your shiny new console. But, I still don't see what the big deal is about backwards compatability. I have only played some of my old xbox games since getting my 360, but I play them on my old xbox. It's not a big deal to me. I understand why people would want it, but I didn't buy the 360 so I could play Xbox games on it. Besides, that's the one reason I kept the thing in the first place. I knew not to trust *** on the BC. They are no different than any other big corporation when it comes to promising things...

[Knite]

Who cares?!?
The only game I play on Xbox360 is Halo2.
Join the 21st Century.
You should have kept your original Xbox like I did.

Well, considering I moved my original Xbox (2nd one BTW since the first one had DVD drive failure) into my bedroom, because I basically ran out of input jacks on my TV, it certainly would be nice to play the games I payed for in the living room. From my standpoint, it's not that I COULDN'T play the games in my bedroom, or even move my Xbox, it's that MS gave me the impression that I would be able to play my games on my 360, and I am very dissapointed at the arrogance at saying they overdelivered, when the original promises are still not matched up to!

[holysin]

I certainly didnt expect to play xbox games on my 360, I have an xbox for that.
Overdelivered?
The only other console we can compare to the 360, so far, is the PS2 (in terms of BC). The ps2 had support for pretty much the entire PSX library. Did you play any? I certainly didnt, I only tested it to see it working.

You could say they overdelivered if you consider the fact that the older games are actually looking better on the 360.
Increasing the resolution and adding AA is a lot better than what the PS2 did: just a not-so-effective texture filter.
So, the PS3 will supposedly support all ps2 games, but are they going to be stuck in 480i (with a few at 480p)?

I wouldn´t even bother with PS2 on PS3 if they´re not going to do the same thing the 360 did. Actually, nevermind, I wont bother with playing PS2 on PS3 at all.

[Borys]

Wow...the only thing backwards there was his statement.

Undelivered and over promised you ass.

No check from Redmont for you this month!

I would prefer Live to give us a few 100MBs of online storage for saves. Maybe enxt update?

Now that's a clever idea actually. If Google can give you 1GB for e-mail for free I'm sure MS could give at least 200 MB for saves for Live users.

[GunnyMo]

That was an almost Sony-like statement in it's arrogance and stupidity. Over delivered? If by making Barbies Farm Animal Adventures backwards they fulfilled their end of the bargain I weep for humanity.

If Sony manages to deliver even 3/4 of their PS2 library as BC on the PS3, MS will lose a lot of ground. Especially after moronic statements like the above.

Wow.

[Borys]

I DID! But you know what? I stopped buying XBOX games that weren't on that list, because I was told there would be updates on the way, that I'd be able to play them on my 360. And since there is no way to transfer saves between an XBOX and a 360, I wasn't about to buy a game and sit on it until there was a BC update at some undisclosed point in the future.

Then this fucker comes along and tells me that he lied, his company lied, and that I'm his bitch. That is what I derive from his statement there. As if I weren't already close enough to abandoning this hobby as a whole, this piece of shit, this fat-ass sack of garbage tells me that no one cares about backwards compatability, even when there is a HUGE topic on THEIR forums listing games people want to make the BC list.

So this is it, this is the industry that feeds our hobby. It is an industry of crooks, liars, thieves, and shills. I really think that it is time to jump ship and find something else to occupy my time with, something that isn't centered on consumerism and corporate bullshit.

Go the Nintendo or PC gaming way.

[Savok]

I DID! But you know what? I stopped buying XBOX games that weren't on that list, because I was told there would be updates on the way, that I'd be able to play them on my 360. And since there is no way to transfer saves between an XBOX and a 360, I wasn't about to buy a game and sit on it until there was a BC update at some undisclosed point in the future.

Then this fucker comes along and tells me that he lied, his company lied, and that I'm his bitch. That is what I derive from his statement there. As if I weren't already close enough to abandoning this hobby as a whole, this piece of shit, this fat-ass sack of garbage tells me that no one cares about backwards compatability, even when there is a HUGE topic on THEIR forums listing games people want to make the BC list.

So this is it, this is the industry that feeds our hobby. It is an industry of crooks, liars, thieves, and shills. I really think that it is time to jump ship and find something else to occupy my time with, something that isn't centered on consumerism and corporate bullshit.
Is that you, brother?

I think this is why I hate you half the time, you're me. I'd be saying those things, if y'know, I had a 360, $120 (about $90US) games tend to be a turn off for me.

[jeffool]

I wouldn´t even bother with PS2 on PS3 if they´re not going to do the same thing the 360 did. Actually, nevermind, I wont bother with playing PS2 on PS3 at all.Hell, if I ever did get a PS3 they damn well better have Bushido Blade(PS1) working on it.

[TRiLoGY]

I love backwards compatabilty, I still play some of my PS1 games on my PS2, and I hope to play my favourite ps2 games on PS3.

I think that the Backwards Compatability on the 360 is.. well.. shit (imho)! Okay so you can play lots of old xbox games, but the emulation is shit (imho). The games run slow and dont look as good as they did on the xbox.. I never owned an xbox, but I bought Halo 2 and borrowed some of my friends xbox games.. To be fair, I know that the GFX cards are different and it must be hard to do.. but.. well.. meh..

[GunnyMo]

Meh, since you don't get achievements for old Xbox games, who cares... ;)

lol I would have thought Bap would say that. :D

[Heretic Machine]

Go the Nintendo or PC gaming way.

So that Nintendo can screw me with accessories? Does no one else remember the N64 Memory Card? Because I fucking own one. I own a memory card for a system that used cartridges. And I'm still not completly sold on this whole Wii thing, not after some of the things people have been saying. Certainly not after I gave the idea of an FPS further contemplation. How exactly can I use the remote as my gun, when I can't really turn around and shoot what is behind me?

As far as PC gaming goes, that is a whole other ball of wax. Companies are becoming DRM whores, and microtransactions are the wave of the future. Not microtransactions like on the 360, where I can pay $5 and get Marble Blast Ultra. No, microtransaction where I can pay $2 to get horse armor, and a few areas of Oblivion that would of shipped with the game if that lame-ass in marketing hadn't heard the word "microtransaction" from Microsoft.

Then there is Vista, which I'm sure will expand on Microsoft's insane piracy protection. Hey, you bought a new copy of Windows XP? Pick up the phone and tell Microsoft all about it, because they need to know that you didn't steal it, all consumers are thieves after all. It certainly isn't enough that you went out and gave them $200 for a product. Oh, what's that? We don't know how to code our way out of a paper bag, and so our Genuine Advantage software is treating your operating system like it was shareware? Sorry about that!

Movies, games, music, it has all become infected with the very worst that capitalism has to offer. People like Peter Moore, and Ken Kutaragi, treating their consumers as if they owe money to the company who rips them off at every turn. I'm sick of it, I shouldn't have to vent on a forum about how crappy my hobby is getting.

[agentgray]

Larger hard drives? Like we didn't see that one coming. I mean 20GB is not necessarily the standard size anymore. Microsoft has a teat and I knew they would milk that. Wait until the first game or Live component comes along that breaks that 20BG barrier.

Heck, 7GB is already used up when you get it.

As far as Moore's BC statment, why can't the interviewer after that statement just interrupt him mid-sentence and say thanks for your time, interview was great, got what we need. and then leave?

(I know. I know. 'Cause the press has to cater to these guys.)

[bone_matrix]

I love backwards compatabilty, I still play some of my PS1 games on my PS2, and I hope to play my favourite ps2 games on PS3.

I think that the Backwards Compatability on the 360 is.. well.. shit (imho)! Okay so you can play lots of old xbox games, but the emulation is shit (imho). The games run slow and dont look as good as they did on the xbox.. I never owned an xbox, but I bought Halo 2 and borrowed some of my friends xbox games.. To be fair, I know that the GFX cards are different and it must be hard to do.. but.. well.. meh..

Sony is also doing emulation (AFAIR), so I don't know how much better their BC will be.

Back on topic:

I don't really use BC. I keep my old systems hooked up, and ready to play. BUT, to read what Moore said is a slap in the face. They didn't overdeliver on anything. While I'm glad they didn't screw us with the console (promising a bunch, but not putting it in), they did with BC. I understand emulation is hard. Its ok, I'm patient. But to say that know one really cares, and you did a good job is just naive.

[Heretic Machine]

Oh, here is a good quote about Moore from the Wikipedia entry on him...

Peter Moore rose to prominence at Sega, being a heavy figure in the company's North American operations during the Dreamcast era. Moore played a pivotal role in the company’s decision to change its business strategy to become a platform-agnostic software publisher. At the time of leaving Moore was president and COO of SEGA of America.

So, he helped put Sega into it's current form of living death? This guy just keeps looking better, doesn't he?

[Bydo_Empire]

Is this a surprise to anyone? Emulation is very difficult, and I can't imagine them wanting to have large numbers off people working on this. From a sales/features standpoint, they can still say they have BC. Check the box. They have that feature and can sell it. Whether or not it's 100% - or your favorite title is supported - is almost irelevant (well, not to you :).

[Kelegacy]

hah, are you kidding? I'm sure that compared to what he feels like saying, that IS being nice. Nice... With attitude. ;)

jeffool, cool it.

[Borys]

So that Nintendo can screw me with accessories? Does no one else remember the N64 Memory Card? Because I fucking own one. I own a memory card for a system that used cartridges. And I'm still not completly sold on this whole Wii thing, not after some of the things people have been saying. Certainly not after I gave the idea of an FPS further contemplation. How exactly can I use the remote as my gun, when I can't really turn around and shoot what is behind me?

As far as PC gaming goes, that is a whole other ball of wax. Companies are becoming DRM whores, and microtransactions are the wave of the future. Not microtransactions like on the 360, where I can pay $5 and get Marble Blast Ultra. No, microtransaction where I can pay $2 to get horse armor, and a few areas of Oblivion that would of shipped with the game if that lame-ass in marketing hadn't heard the word "microtransaction" from Microsoft.

Then there is Vista, which I'm sure will expand on Microsoft's insane piracy protection. Hey, you bought a new copy of Windows XP? Pick up the phone and tell Microsoft all about it, because they need to know that you didn't steal it, all consumers are thieves after all. It certainly isn't enough that you went out and gave them $200 for a product. Oh, what's that? We don't know how to code our way out of a paper bag, and so our Genuine Advantage software is treating your operating system like it was shareware? Sorry about that!

Movies, games, music, it has all become infected with the very worst that capitalism has to offer. People like Peter Moore, and Ken Kutaragi, treating their consumers as if they owe money to the company who rips them off at every turn. I'm sick of it, I shouldn't have to vent on a forum about how crappy my hobby is getting.

Damn, Perigon, buy yourself a bike or something :(

[Paranoia]

Was X360 promised to be 100% backward compatible from the beginning?

[Paranoia]

So that Nintendo can screw me with accessories? Does no one else remember the N64 Memory Card? Because I fucking own one. I own a memory card for a system that used cartridges. And I'm still not completly sold on this whole Wii thing, not after some of the things people have been saying. Certainly not after I gave the idea of an FPS further contemplation. How exactly can I use the remote as my gun, when I can't really turn around and shoot what is behind me?

As far as PC gaming goes, that is a whole other ball of wax. Companies are becoming DRM whores, and microtransactions are the wave of the future. Not microtransactions like on the 360, where I can pay $5 and get Marble Blast Ultra. No, microtransaction where I can pay $2 to get horse armor, and a few areas of Oblivion that would of shipped with the game if that lame-ass in marketing hadn't heard the word "microtransaction" from Microsoft.

Then there is Vista, which I'm sure will expand on Microsoft's insane piracy protection. Hey, you bought a new copy of Windows XP? Pick up the phone and tell Microsoft all about it, because they need to know that you didn't steal it, all consumers are thieves after all. It certainly isn't enough that you went out and gave them $200 for a product. Oh, what's that? We don't know how to code our way out of a paper bag, and so our Genuine Advantage software is treating your operating system like it was shareware? Sorry about that!

Movies, games, music, it has all become infected with the very worst that capitalism has to offer. People like Peter Moore, and Ken Kutaragi, treating their consumers as if they owe money to the company who rips them off at every turn. I'm sick of it, I shouldn't have to vent on a forum about how crappy my hobby is getting.

Don't be such a crybaby.

[Spigot]

The rather slipshod implementation of BC on the 360 really irks me. That's a large part of the reason I didn't bother getting one at launch and won't be getting one until a rather sizable 360 library is established. I bought the PS2 for the express intent of playing PS1 games during the lean times and still bust out PS1 games from time to time. If I could get rid of my Xbox and pick up a 360 with confidence that my library would work on the new system, I'd do so. As it stands, I'll stick with my Xbox for the next while until they get the BC list to include games like Psychonauts or Otagi rather than Barbie's Mystical Unicorn Adventures and other stupid games of its ilk.

Heck, the BC in the Virtual Console is the main reason I'm getting the Wii at launch. Even if there aren't many decent Wii launch titles (which doesn't seem to be the case), I'll have access to all of those classics which, yes, I do play on a somewhat regular basis.

I can understand not being upset about the BC list on the 360 if you just don't care about the previous system's games or aren't planning on getting rid of your older consoles. I just don't happen to be one of those people and Moore saying that they overdelivered is just wrong on so many levels.

[fitbabits]

Holy shit - that's the most proposterous thing I've read in a while. Since when did Moore start taking tips from Sony's PR department?

[Rirath]

I've been lurking around these forums for a while now but this is the first thing that has enraged me enough to post.

That's quite a first post -- do stick around.

[Kamalot]

I have to call Microsoft to the floor on this one. With all the good will they build up by providing free dashboard updates and creating a rockin' system, you don't tell people your goal is to get all old games working and then only deliver a small fraction of that citing that you 'pver delivered'.

I call bullshit!

Having said that, this is the only thing I can think of off of the top of my head that MS mislead me about with the 360.

While they're at it, why not give me a way to move over my old save games too? I went ahead and ordered one of these to get my old save games onto my 360.

http://us.codejunkies.com/images/article_images/images/XSATA-Xbox-360.jpg (http://us.codejunkies.com/news_reviews.asp?c=US&cr=USD&cs=$&r=0&l=1&p=8&i=8990&s=8)

[Rirath]

Don't be such a crybaby.

Enjoy the future, bud. Let me guess, you fill out all of your product registration cards in clear, legible handwriting, make a duplicate copy for records, then mail the original with certified mail? Do you add hearts and fan mail to the envelope or keep things business like?

Movies, games, music, it has all become infected with the very worst that capitalism has to offer. People like Peter Moore, and Ken Kutaragi, treating their consumers as if they owe money to the company who rips them off at every turn. I'm sick of it, I shouldn't have to vent on a forum about how crappy my hobby is getting.

Perigon, I've disagreed with a lot of your posts. But that post was one of your best. I've never said this before, but: QFT.

[BabyJesus]

Was X360 promised to be 100% backward compatible from the beginning?

That was thier goal, but in reality I didn't and they probably didn't think it would happen.

I don't like the comments ol' Pete made in regards to BC, as I'd like to be able to move the XBOX 1 to my bedroom and use it as a dvd player and play the occasional game there. My biggest gripe with BC though has always been the fact that you have no "legit" way of moving saves over, so games I was more than a few minutes into I'd have to start over again. Oh well at least I can play some of my favs on the 360....

[Kelegacy]

If the 360 was BC with MVP 2005, I'd be using it. As it is, my Xbox is still plugged in and gets more airtime than my 360. I play the former every day and haven't touched the latter since April I think.

[jacktion]

Some people are saying that they don't care about BC. They want to play new games. I agree in theory, but we're not talking about Atari games here. We're talking about Xbox titles that came out in the last 2 years. These are cutting-edge, great-looking titles that should be able to be played on the 360. A lot of people would not see a difference between 360 titles and recent Xbox titles. The fact of the matter is that MS promised that all games would be BC and now they are changing their story and insulting their customers by saying they have given them more then they deserved. No one wants to have both a giant Xbox and a giant 360 crammed under their tv. We were told we would be able to have one system down there and that was a lie. Now I have to replace 2 systems when they break instead of one. Again, we the customers are getting screwed.

[Paranoia]

Enjoy the future, bud. Let me guess, you fill out all of your product registration cards in clear, legible handwriting, make a duplicate copy for records, then mail the original with certified mail? Do you add hearts and fan mail to the envelope or keep things business like?


Hell yeah. I even went as far as send them a nice bunch of roses.

[Rook34]

Are Peter and Ken brothers or something? Absolutely retarded. More than half of my Xbox library is not compatible and that fucking blows donkey dick. When I first heard of the woes of MS I resigned myself to the fact that I'd be keeping my xbox and buying a 360. Not trading it in as originally planned. I'm not as much pissed about that as I am the sheer retardidness of Moore's statement. You gotta wonder if they really know what they are saying, or are they that used to bullshit seeping from their lips 24/7.

[atariv8]

My orginal Xbox has one of the crap DVD drives and is slowly dying. I still have a library of about 30 games I enjoy playing. Does this mean I have to buy another Xbox? Fuck that. Couldn't they release the emulation source code and have some over zealous coders do the work for them...for free? If they don't give a shit about the old games any more, let the public have them.

Maybe the revolution will give you the ability to download old Xbox games too...

[Paranoia]

That was thier goal, but in reality I didn't and they probably didn't think it would happen.



I don't expect the X360 to be fully BC anyway. I remember how PM said about BC and avoided the to say 100% BC. Maybe I'm not pissed about the whole BC issue because I don't have plan to get X360 solely to play Xbox game. My good ol' Xbox still works so I could care less about BC issue. Heck, I can't remember the last time I fired up PS1 games when I play a PS2.

[pheriannath]

...so awesome.

For some reason I keep thinking back to that particular PA strip.

[Wyrm]

Perigon is absolutely right. Our hobby is going to hell in a handbasket and there isnt really much we can do about it. Microsoft can do this, and SAY this, because they already have an established base of consumers. They do not give a rat's ass if there are 5-10 games we want to play but cant, they only care about the present and the future.

I can honestly say that the whole backwards compatibility thing has kept me from purchasing a 360. I'm largely uninterested in all but about two current 360 titles, so the BC was going to be the thing that made me get it. I was going to sell my xbox, get a 360, and buy a few old xbox games that I never got to play. Well, launch came and went, and the list arrived. I was utterly flabergasted at the fact that so many games were missing from the list. Almost every single game I planned to buy and use on the 360 was missing.

They can say what they want about architecture, and make all the excuses they want about how hard it is to emulate these games, but if they promised backwards compatibility, by god, I better get what I pay for. The 360 is not worth 400 dollars any more than the PS3 is worth 600.

The Wii is looking more and more attractive every day. I just hope I can find one when they launch.

[Kefkataran]

I've never had a major problem with Moore before, but that comment about under-promising and over-delivering on backwards compatibility... what a fucking dick. He basically just said, "Yeah, all those fans who want to be able to play all their old games? Fuck 'em. They're wrong, we're right, and look at what an amazing job we did!"

[Paranoia]

...so awesome.

For some reason I keep thinking back to that particular PA strip.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/krillnyc/pmoore.jpg

[Rook34]

I missed that PA strip. Hilarious.

[Serapth]

No check from Redmont for you this month!



Now that's a clever idea actually. If Google can give you 1GB for e-mail for free I'm sure MS could give at least 200 MB for saves for Live users.

Im willing to bet that is exactly whats going to happen with Live Anywhere. Then you would be able to trade saved games, pics, etc... things that you didnt buy via micro transactions, with other live users all server side ( no real risk and quick ). It will happen, to some degree or another.

As to the article, never gave a damn about BC, still for the most part dont. Since the new generation started, there is really only one previous generation game I play ( a golf game with 3d sensors that I just bought for the PS2, the thing rocks even if the graphics are dog ugly ). Infact, ive pretty much permanantly lent out my Xbox1 to a friend with no intention of getting it back.

Ive always though BC was a mostly useless feature atleast compared to the effort involved.

Also, if its true that Sony is going the emulation route for BC, dont expect much from that camp either. Emulation based BC always is buggy as shit.

As to Moore's statements, yeah they are pretty stupid. He is normally very well spoken so this sorta shocks me.

[Crenor]

If you think this is an issue, wait until PS3 tells everyone they have the same issue. Except when PS3 releases there batch of compatible games it will be about the same 200-300, out of there catalog of +3000 games.

[BrainDrain]

Definately need a larger HD considering all you really get is a 13gb one. Personally I could care less about BC as Halo 2 is the only original Xbox game I own. I'm all about the new generation of games (GRAW, COD2, TT etc.) and Live Arcade games (looking forward to Texas Hold'Em). I do agree that they seem to be going back on their original goal of full backwards compatability.

[Kefkataran]

If you think this is an issue, wait until PS3 tells everyone they have the same issue. Except when PS3 releases there batch of compatible games it will be about the same 200-300, out of there catalog of +3000 games.

Way to try and pass off the heat on Msoft to Sony. :p I'm positive, one hundred million percent positive, that if Sony has problems even nearing Microsoft's with backwards compatibility, we'll have tons of bitching and deriding here. But this is about Msoft's problems.

[dotbomb]

wow that takes some big brass balls

[Mike Jones]

I just saw Peter Moore!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUkYdHryEDk&search=dancing%20faceplant

:D

[Pigeon]

Ya know, you all point at Barbie Horse adventures and complain it made the BC list, but the fact is that when I was working selling games we couldn't keep it in stock. It constantly sold out. I would even tell people not to buy it and point out better games for their little girls to play and they'd buy it anyway. It stayed at 49.99 for at least a year and a half. When we sold out during the xmas rush we'd have people coming in every day to see if it came in. You people have to remember that while you're the craziest, you're not the only gaming people MS has to look at.

[Syl]

Once the Otogi games are backwards compatible i'll bite.

Till then, fuck it.

[Citizen Philip]

...
So this is it, this is the industry that feeds our hobby. It is an industry of crooks, liars, thieves, and shills. I really think that it is time to jump ship and find something else to occupy my time with, something that isn't centered on consumerism and corporate bullshit.

But the people you have to be involved with for charity work either make you feel bad for being so well-off or they smell funny or say crazy things that make you not want to be to close.

[fitbabits]

Once the Otogi games are backwards compatible i'll bite.

Till then, fuck it.
I hear you, bud. It's a crime that games as great and beautiful as the Otogi titles are not BC.

[Kefkataran]

Ya know, you all point at Barbie Horse adventures and complain it made the BC list, but the fact is that when I was working selling games we couldn't keep it in stock. It constantly sold out. I would even tell people not to buy it and point out better games for their little girls to play and they'd buy it anyway. It stayed at 49.99 for at least a year and a half. When we sold out during the xmas rush we'd have people coming in every day to see if it came in. You people have to remember that while you're the craziest, you're not the only gaming people MS has to look at.

The fact that they're big sellers doesn't mean they should be prime backwards compatibility candidates. How many people buying that game specifically are going to own a 360 or even know that a 360 can play (some) original Xbox games?

[Heretic Machine]

The fact that they're big sellers doesn't mean they should be prime backwards compatibility candidates. How many people buying that game specifically are going to own a 360 or even know that a 360 can play (some) original Xbox games?

I have to wonder about how many people who buy that game will play it a week after they recieve it.

[Kefkataran]

I have to wonder about how many people who buy that game will play it a week after they recieve it.

Me, I'm holding out for the 360 version so I can get achievements AND a new pretty pony user icon.

[RMan]

Yea, that’s just an odd thing to say. I don’t see the upside to them saying that publicly unless they’ve completely stopped working on BC and they just want to get people over it ASAP. Bad statement though, no matter how little he thinks it matters to some players, saying they over delivered when their competition (currently the PS2) had far better BC just sheds a bad light on their efforts. Not saying anything seems like it would have been far smarter.

[Savok]

Can you see how fucked this all is now? When Perigon makes sense the world is going mad.

Movies, games, music, it has all become infected with the very worst that capitalism has to offer. People like Peter Moore, and Ken Kutaragi, treating their consumers as if they owe money to the company who rips them off at every turn. I'm sick of it, I shouldn't have to vent on a forum about how crappy my hobby is getting.
So true.

Though with Nintendo and their "hey, buy this new addon" stance, at least they'll lube up before fucking you.

[Ultima Thulian]

What's this? A corporate schill making himself look like a complete dickwad? What foul magic is this?

Damn it's good to be back!

[Wonka]

Overdelivered?

What an asshat thing to say.

Someone needs to give that PR guy a lesson on PR.

[Heretic Machine]

Oh, get this: There has been a forum post on the official XBOX forums going on since around the time the 360 launched, which was full of people asking for various games to be made BC. Guess what happend when this little comment of Moore's slipped? Ya, thats right, they deleted the 70+ page post.

Nope, no body cares, no 70+ page post here.

[EternalGamer]

What irritates me the most about this is that I actually started believing them. They kept asking people to be patient and talking about how hard they were working on it, so I was actually naive enough to think they were being honest. As I result, I started picking up Xbox version of games I want to play again, in preparation for playing them on the 360. Here's the list of games I have so far that show just how much they "over delivered":

1) Aggressive Inline - NOT COMPATIBLE
2) Beyond Good and Evil - NOT COMPATIBLE
3) Brute Force- compatible
4) Buffy The Vampire Slayer- NOT COMPATIBLE
5) Burnout 3- NOT COMPATIBLE
6) Conker's Bad Fur Day- NOT COMPATIBLE
7) Deus Ex Invisible War- NOT COMPATIBLE
8) Fatal Frame- NOT COMPATIBLE
9) Freaky Flyers- NOT COMPATIBLE
10) Galleon- NOT COMPATIBLE
11) Grabbed by the Ghoulies- NOT COMPATIBLE
12) Gun Valkyrie- NOT COMPATIBLE
13) Halo- compatible
14) Halo 2- compatible
15) Hunter: The Reckoning- NOT COMPATIBLE
16) I-Ninja- NOT COMPATIBLE
17) Jet Set Radio Future- NOT COMPATIBLE
18) King Arthur- NOT COMPATIBLE
19) Lord of the Rings: Two Towers- NOT COMPATIBLE
20) Metal Gear Solid 2- NOT COMPATIBLE
21) Otogi- NOT COMPATIBLE
22) Panzer Dragoon Orta- NOT MOTHER FUCKING COMPATIBLE
23) Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones- NOT MOTHER FUCKING COMPATIBLE
24) Psychonaughts- NOT COMPATIBLE
25) Metal Arms- NOT COMPATIBLE
26) Myst III- NOT COMPATIBLE
27) Quantum Redshift- compatible
28) Robotech- NOT COMPATIBLE
29) Shenmue 2- NOT COMPATIBLE
30) Splinter Cell- compatible
31) Star Wars: KOTOR- compatible
32) Syberia- NOT COMPATIBLE
33) Tenchu: Wraith of Darkness- NOT COMPATIBLE
34) Timesplitters 2- NOT COMPATIBLE
35) Vexx- NOT COMPATIBLE
36) Voodoo Vince- NOT COMPATIBLE

Six games. Six games out of 36. That's a 16.6%. That's not even good enough to be called an "F." And these are not super crazy rare games. These are almost all games people have heard of, games that got good press. I don't have fucking "Super Bob's Sheep Adventure" on that list. And yeah, I sure as hell wouldn't complain if Syberia or Myst III didn't make that list. But Prince of Persia 3? I bought that fucking game just because I was convinced it would eventually be there. And it's not the only one. There are least three or four other games on that list, which I also bought after the 360 came out because these guys convinced me I would able to play them all eventuallyI wanted to play it. Probably a lot worse than I want to play 99% of MS's shitty games that are coming out this Fall for the 360.

I am pissed.

[Limech]

People, move on. Xbox games are so yesterday. :rolleyes:

[Limech]

There are least three or four other games on that list, which I also bought after the 360 came out because these guys convinced me I would able to play them all eventuallyI wanted to play it.

Hum, well that was stupid (sorry for me saying).
If you were so easily convinced that title X would become backwards compatible out of thousands of titles without any hint that this particular title would ever make it onto the list then I've got some land to sell you in Florida.

[Ultima Thulian]

If they "over-delivered" then why is it that JSRF and Conker are not compatible? JSRF came bundled with the system, and Conker is a first-party title? WTF.

Dan, you are pissed, aren't you? I can tell because you forgot add you name to the end of the post.

[Ultima Thulian]

I've got some land to sell you in Florida.

How much? Could make a nice retirement home out of it...or maybe I can make a "...so awesome" club for "hip" and "with it" corporate schi...err...employees like Moore and Kuturagi can get together and beat off to their own awesomeness.

[Heretic Machine]

Hum, well that was stupid (sorry for me saying).
If you were so easily convinced that title X would become backwards compatible out of thousands of titles without any hint that this particular title would ever make it onto the list then I've got some land to sell you in Florida.

Without a hint? They said their goal was 100% compatability. That is what they said, over and over again. What'd they do after launch? Stone walled everyone, and then finally told us that it was a feature that they didn't care about developing. Good job guys, six months after launch you cut a feature.

[Flatpicker]

Chances are that they deleted the 70+ page post due to the fact that once Moore's comments came out, posters broke some site rule or something.

Is Moore's comments pure asshattery? You bet it is and it's nothing less than I expected on the BC front. They overpromised severly and in no way could they have gotten that done in a timely fashion. After the first year most people could care less.

I wanted Pirates and Mercs to be BC compatible and am disapointed that they haven't yet. Perhaps if Microsoft allows the original developers to develop emulators and sell them on live for $5, then the list would expand.

[Metal Jesus]

Backwards Compatibility is not a big deal to me at all. I've played exactly ONE old XBOX game on my new 360... for about 10 minutes (SSX3).

Bring on the newer games...

[EternalGamer]

Perhaps if Microsoft allows the original developers to develop emulators and sell them on live for $5, then the list would expand.

Or perhaps, since they constantly emphasized how fucking dedicated they were to getting 100% backwards compatibility they should hire some independant developers to work on it at their expense, not ours.

It's not like they sorta hinted at 100% being their goal, they outright said it. Repeatedly. And kept saying how "dedicated" they were to it. And when people were skeptical and pushed them, they re-enforced how dedicated they were.

Just two months ago, they did it again with their stupid little 5 game update that broke more than it fixed. Even then they stated that their goal was 100% and that people just needed to be patient.

So we are patient. And then what do we get? We get asshats like you telling us that its our fault, not theirs. Because of course, nobody should ever get angry when companies outright decieve you. No, we should never attempt to hold them accountable for the complete bullshit they feed us. Silly us. We should just allow them to say whatever the fuck they want without consequent. We should just smile and as "Oh how wonderful of you Microsoft to feed us lies."

[The Flash]

Have you guys considered maybe he/they really didn't think it was a big deal? If their is an outrage(like this one) everywhere, I'm sure they will retract their/his statement.

For me it's not really a big deal, but I kept my Xbox for xbox games so I woudln't have any trouble playing them, and so I wouldn't have to start over.

Also, I'm sure it takes a lot of time away from other projects they would be able to work on such as LIVE. I rather have them work on other stuff than just BC stuff, but maybe that's just me.

I agree how he presented himself should have been said differently, but I think it would be alright(for me atleast) to move on and do other projects. Obviously, everyone else feels differetnly, but I would be cool if they moved on.

[Flatpicker]

.

So we are patient. And then what do we get? We get asshats like you telling us that its our fault, not theirs. Because of course, nobody should ever get angry when companies outright decieve you. No, we should never attempt to hold them accountable for the complete bullshit they feed us. Silly us. We should just allow them to say whatever the fuck they want without consequent. We should just smile and as "Oh how wonderful of you Microsoft to feed us lies."

You are calling ME an asshat because I am trying to think up a way to make BC a possibility? Poor show there.

Where did I say that it was our fault? All I said was that I expected this behavior from MS.

Even at last years E3 they said "Selected BC". Where you get 100% from that is beyond me.

[EternalGamer]

Even at last years E3 they said "Selected BC". Where you get 100% from that is beyond me.

Someobody want to toss this guy some links and some clues? I just don't have the time or energy.

[Ultima Thulian]

We get asshats like you telling us that its our fault, not theirs. Because of course, nobody should ever get angry when companies outright decieve you. No, we should never attempt to hold them accountable for the complete bullshit they feed us. Silly us. We should just allow them to say whatever the fuck they want without consequent. We should just smile and as "Oh how wonderful of you Microsoft to feed us lies."

Dude, settle down. I agree with you 100% but if you keep this pace up you'll get an ulcer. It sucks, but putting faith in corporate schills is like pissing on a fire, both futile and potentially painful to the penis.

And did you stop putting your first name on your posts or something? I miss that little "Dan" thing you have going on. I've been gone for a few weeks, so please excuse my ignorance if you decided to stop posting your name after every post.

And again, I agree with (this isn't meant to be a flame), but ya need to calm down. I've honestly never seen you this pissed!

[Ultima Thulian]

"Holmdahl said that the company eventually plans to support the entire catalog for the original Xbox on the Xbox 360."

Read the whole thing here. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051112-5558.html

[Flatpicker]

"Holmdahl said that the company eventually plans to support the entire catalog for the original Xbox on the Xbox 360."

Read the whole thing here. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051112-5558.html

Thanks.
But what's the beef EG?
When did I ever blame the end users for the lack of BC?

[motor]

I wonder if this guy realizes just how much damage Microsoft did to the game industry by not providing backwards compatibility to all new xbox titles? The people who don't care about backwards compatibility are partially right, backwards compatibility for titles more then a year old really doesn't have too much impact. But what had a huge impact and what really damaged the game industry this past 18 months is the fact that microsoft put developers in this spot with consumers where people wouldn't buy 360 games because there were not enough consoles and they wouldn't buy xbox games because they couldn't run them on the new hardware. I can think of at least 4 games I would have bought (POP 3, Battlefield 2, Battlefront 2 and ninja gaiden black) that I would have bought if I had known that they would have worked out of the box on my 360. Instead, because they screwed up backwards compatibility on new and near-new titles, I didn't buy them. The same is true for millions of other potential purchases. Microsoft singlehandedly caused the slump in game revenue this year through their poor handling of the console availability and backward compatibility for new titles. You want a reason why there has been a lot more layoffs and closures this year then usual it lays totally at Microsofts feet. Moore should apologize, not gloat. What a prick.

[EternalGamer]

First, apologies to Flatpicker. I mistook you for one of the people on the other page of posts--there are just way too many new people lately.

And yes, Ultima, I'm pretty angry, but not "real world" angry. I won't carry this stress throughout the day with me or anything. I have more important things to worry about But this is just about as angry as I get regarding anything videogame related.

As for the name thing, yeah, Spigot and some others were apparently really annoyed by the name thing at the end of my posts. I only did it out of habit anyway, so I stopped. I have been "name free" on my posts for at least a month now. I deserve a cookie.

[Maskatron]

I don't have a 360 yet, but if I understand it correctly, the BC games play at higher resolutions in HD have better anti aliasing, correct? If MS gave the impression at first that the majority of games would work, that alone is a reason to be pissed.

I hope Sony is able to deliver on this, because most PS2 games on even a smaller HDTV look horrid. I realize that most Xbox games look pretty good on a HDTV, but there is an improvement with the 360.

[jspeak32]

Did anyone buy an x360 expecting to then purchase old xbox games and play them on their shiney new 360? Seriously?

This backwards compatability thing sounds like a bonus feature they worked in for a few cross gen games. I don't think anyone would be complaining if they had just said "sorry, they won't work on the x360."

Yea, I myself don't have the time to even play all the NEW games I want to play, let alone older ones for previous consoles, so i dont really care about backwards compatibility all that much.

When I got my ps2 at launch, I popped in one PS1 game, just to see if there was a major graphical difference...haven't put another one in there sense...

P.S. As a side note, there weren't any ps2 games worth playing its first year, so I would have been more interested in it being backward compatible with the dreamcast :)

[Kamalot]

Way to try and pass off the heat on Msoft to Sony. :p I'm positive, one hundred million percent positive, that if Sony has problems even nearing Microsoft's with backwards compatibility, we'll have tons of bitching and deriding here. But this is about Msoft's problems.
Sony has enough problems. So far, it looks like playing old PS1 & PS2 games is the only thing they can get right these days

Buy a $600 system to play your old games!

[Dag-Sabot]

At last! My journey through this thread as at an end!
Holy serious "Preaching to the choir" bat-man, and i whole heartedly agree.
Now, my home entertainement suite is a tangled eagles' nest of s-video, composite and component cables, with me trying to decide which eaglet will get the HD worm.



My next TV should have enough imputs to connect everything including the kitchen sink.

[nein89]

I am amused. Overdelivered? Yeah, fuck them. I might be in the minority, but this cost them a sale. Shelf space is at a premium in my house, and the 360 does not have anything compelling enough to replace Otogi and Steel Battalion. Not now, and not in the next year or two, either. I'd have liked to try Chromehounds out when it hits, but...oh well. Not happening now.

[Spigot]

As for the name thing, yeah, Spigot and some others were apparently really annoyed by the name thing at the end of my posts. I only did it out of habit anyway, so I stopped. I have been "name free" on my posts for at least a month now. I deserve a cookie.
Hooray! Here's a cookie.

Oh, I was never really annoyed by it. I complained about it to help bolster my COCQ (Crazy Old Coot Quotient). I'd rather grump about people spelling canon as cannon than you signing your name.

I'll take the first step and allow you the D. Others will have to give you back the A and N.

[Zanzibar]

This coming from me, one of the biggest MS fans on the site:

Moore, that was the most dumbassed statement I have ever heard. Worse than 'Aged like fine wine.' Worse than 'RIIIDGE RACERRR!'. Worse than 'Bring 'em on.' Worse than 'compassionate conservative.' Worse than 'I did not have sex with that woman.'

Sheer, undiluted stupidity.

Edit: - Dan

[Kefkataran]

People, move on. Xbox games are so yesterday.

Peter Moore, ladies and gentleman! *golf clap*

[Megalith]

No one in the real world cares.

[jeffool]

*whew* Good thing I only exist on the internet, huh?

[Kelegacy]

*whew* Good thing I only exist on the internet, huh?
And in my dreams. Last night was marvelous.

[EternalGamer]

To me this is also directly related to feeling ripped off when companies are charging $60 per title for the 360. I have seen Tomb Raider Legend for $35 on the original Xbox. It's of course still $60 on the 360. That's nearly double the price just to have the game run in high resolution. That's ridiculious. Maybe I'll just buy the Xbox version, I mean, the 360 upscales it anyway, right? Oh wait, that's right. The 360 isn't backwards compatible with Tomb Raider. It's also not backwards compatible with the $20 versions of Gun or Tony Hawk I see everywhere in stores. Nor the $30 copies of King Kong and Burnout 4. No, if I want to play any of those games on my 360, I'll just have to pay double that price. As a matter of fact, if I want to play any games on my 360, I have to pay $60.

Or I can just not and have nothing to play on my 360, which I haven't turned on for anything but movies in over four months because there is nothing that appeals to my tastes in games. I'm not trying to get on a soapbox or rally the pitchforks or anything. But sofar I have been underwhelmed with what this new generation has offered, and the ironic thing is, it looks like MS is doing the best job in terms of delivering it. I kinda do hope the Wii is "new generation" and not "next generation" because quite frankly, this next generation pretty much sucks so far for those of us that don't like phone it in First Person Shooters, Racing and Sports games.

[Busted_Astromech]

For myself, as for a lot of people who bought the 360 without having an Xbox, the backwards compatibility was a big part of the purchase--I'd figure it worth at least $100 of the 400 I paid.

So I got Jade Empire, Fable, and Ninja Gaiden Black. And I waited. Waited so I could get the other games, like Psychonauts, Prince of Persia 3 (because I'd rather play a higher-polygon Xbox version than on the GameCube I have), and all the other games missing.

And now they tell me that I won't get a part of their product that they promised to me? That I don't matter in their accounting book?

The economics may be on Microsoft's side--it probably doesn't matter anymore. But that's no way to create a community of loyal fans.

[JediSanf]

For a lot of people, who bought the 360 without having an Xbox, the backwards compatibility was a big part of my purchase--I'd figure worth at least $100 of the 400 I paid.

So I got Jade Empire, Fable, and Ninja Gaiden Black. And I waited. Waited so I could get the other games, like Psychonauts, Prince of Persia 3 (because I'd rather play a higher-polygon Xbox version than on the GameCube I have), and all the other games missing.

And now they tell me that I won't get a part of their product that they promised to me? That I don't matter in their accounting book?


Amen. As someone else who never owned an Xbox, BC was definately part of what sold me. This behavior is indefensible.

[jeffool]

And in my dreams. Last night was marvelous.I agree. I can't remember the last time I saw you eat two pepperoni pizzas, get drunk, shave the cat, and paint a poem on it. Again.

How he keeps that cat still? It has to be magic...

/And off to work I go! With no sleep!

[Zechs01]

I think the HDD the Xbox 360 has was a stupid idea to not have it standard, they should atleast make an adapter so you can use normal 2.5" laptop HDD on it, like the PS3 is useing normal 2.5" HDD so you can upgrade to whatever size you want thats avaliable. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148073) (Note: not sure if PS3 uses 2.5" or what interface will have to look)

[Goronmon]

What a fuckwad-type thing to say. I mean, BC compatibility isn't that big of a deal to me, but still, statements like that make me regret supporting Microsoft by buying their systems.

[Dirty Harry]

Wow, thats pretty bad, ive thought ken has said some out there shit but this probally takes the cake.

[Dracula-X]

Wow. Did he really say that? Overdelivered?. I'm stupefied. Moore just slapped me on the belly with a wet trout*.

I'm big on BC and it's still a selling point for me. Every now and then I'll have a go at some old title. Don't have a huge Xbox library, so it was my plan to explore and pick up some more games on the cheap and run through them on the 360 (now I have to rethink that strategy). On the Sony side, just the other day I busted out Vagrant Story on the PS2, never did get to finish that one - yes, quite old, but I take my time, sometimes :)

[SaintArnold]

I'm waiting for 3 things before I buy a 360:
1) Price drop
2) Halo 3
3) more backwards compatibility

If it can't run my huge collection of xbox games, I'm not going to be willing to pay as much for my Halo 3 box.

[Zechs01]

Backward compatability is a big deal because atleast to me I have alot of Xbox games and if i get an Xbox 360 I want to be able to play them on it i had to get rid of 90% of my xbox games because I couldnt play them on the stupid Xbox 360 and my xbox broke but then I ended up not getting a 360 because i figured i would wait for the PS3 to come out.

[Savok]

Oh, get this: There has been a forum post on the official XBOX forums going on since around the time the 360 launched, which was full of people asking for various games to be made BC. Guess what happend when this little comment of Moore's slipped? Ya, thats right, they deleted the 70+ page post.

Nope, no body cares, no 70+ page post here.
Wow, just wow.

I'm also gonna be one of those people that isn't going to buy a 360 anytime soon because of this, I was going to maybe get it just for Live Arcade and a few rentals, but they can get fucked.

[theguido]

Backwards compatibility is a big, big deal to a lot of people. I know of people who sold off their Xbox's because they (mistakenly) believed what Microsoft had to say regarding backwards compatibility--and now, unfortunately they're stuck with games they want to play but can no longer play due to these issues and their unfortunate belief that a spokesperson for Microsoft actually meant what they said.

As for me, it's yet another reason I'll be waiting a long, long time for a 360.

[Zurik]

To me this is also directly related to feeling ripped off when companies are charging $60 per title for the 360. I have seen Tomb Raider Legend for $35 on the original Xbox. It's of course still $60 on the 360. That's nearly double the price just to have the game run in high resolution. That's ridiculious. Maybe I'll just buy the Xbox version, I mean, the 360 upscales it anyway, right? Oh wait, that's right. The 360 isn't backwards compatible with Tomb Raider. It's also not backwards compatible with the $20 versions of Gun or Tony Hawk I see everywhere in stores. Nor the $30 copies of King Kong and Burnout 4. No, if I want to play any of those games on my 360, I'll just have to pay double that price. As a matter of fact, if I want to play any games on my 360, I have to pay $60.

Or I can just not and have nothing to play on my 360, which I haven't turned on for anything but movies in over four months because there is nothing that appeals to my tastes in games. I'm not trying to get on a soapbox or rally the pitchforks or anything. But sofar I have been underwhelmed with what this new generation has offered, and the ironic thing is, it looks like MS is doing the best job in terms of delivering it. I kinda do hope the Wii is "new generation" and not "next generation" because quite frankly, this next generation pretty much sucks so far for those of us that don't like phone it in First Person Shooters, Racing and Sports games.

Think you for saying what we're all thinking. So is this how Microsoft combats the used game fiasco with EB/Gamestop? The only way you're going to get alot of those games is used, and if they're not supported...

[Kefkataran]

I'm also gonna be one of those people that isn't going to buy a 360 anytime soon because of this, I was going to maybe get it just for Live Arcade and a few rentals, but they can get fucked.

Live Arcade and rentals seems to be the primary reason for owning it right now. This isn't to say I wouldn't recommend it, because I've been having an absolute blast with my 360, but I can't completely blame you for feeling this way either.

[Flatpicker]

To be honest. I've been playing Oblivion, Uno, Rumble Roses, and GRAW so much, That I haven't missed much in the old Xbox library.

Halo, Halo 2...done.
Stubbs...done.
Kotor, Kotor2, Jade Empire...done.
Splinter Cell, R6...Mostly done. Got bored of R6.
The rest, I don't remember right now.

I want NEW experiences, new levels and more enhancements to the gameplay.
I guess BC is just not that big a deal to me.

[Zeal]

Why is backwards compatibility such a big deal. Play Xbox games on your Xbox, play 360 games on your 360.

[Kefkataran]

Why is backwards compatibility such a big deal. Play Xbox games on your Xbox, play 360 games on your 360.

Speaking for myself, I never owned an Xbox. There's some games I want to play on the 360, but I just never picked up an Xbox. But because of the BC problems, a lot of the Xbox games I would want to play that are original Xbox titles, I just cannot with my 360. Eternal Gamer's point is even better: they said they were aiming for 100% backwards compatibility. Under that impression, he purchased a bunch of Xbox titles and now he can't play them.

I dunno. Most people don't hold onto their last-gen systems once they've got the new-gen system but a lot still would like to go back and play the games.

[Bumbuliuz]

I understand that we will NEVER have 100% back-compat. But there are many AAA games out there that havent yet gotten the Bc loving yet. I still have my xbox, but I love how the games look better on my 360, I dont feel like ripping my hd cables for the xbox 360 every time I want to play my xbox on a component cable just to get a better picture. I want games like Pshyconauts to get bc.

[nein89]

Why is backwards compatibility such a big deal. Play Xbox games on your Xbox, play 360 games on your 360.

I'm disinclined to leave every system ever manufactured connected at all times. Yet, there are many old games which I routinely enjoy playing. It's not a huge deal; enough to delay or prevent me purchasing a 360 for the forseeable future, but not shocking or outrage-inspiring.

What annoys me about this is mostly Moore's incompetence. I think this is why I always sort of liked Reggie; he was a marketing guy, and he spoke like a marketing guy, but he wasn't incompetent. Moore and Kutaragi, on the other hand, are pathetic. There's no excuse for people in such high profile positions for such large corporations to be so bad at their jobs.

[Wyrm]

If they advertised it as a feature, and then didn't deliver, that's false advertising. You cannot spin it any other way.

Those people that think BC is 'no big deal' need to get bent. There are plenty of games on xbox worth playing, and it's a huge pain in the ass, not to mention a money sink, to buy another HD cable for your original xbox.

I dont care what they screwed up that made it hard to emulate the games. I dont want excuses. I just want them to fix it. I will not buy a 360 until they fix it. I was on the fence, and this shoved me right off the back of it. I was going to sell my original xbox in order to off set the cost. But, if I do that, I lose all but two of the games I own for the xbox and I'm stuck with a box that has cool live arcade games, but nothing else I'd really care to play.

This is no small matter. Someone needs to call them out on this in a huge way and back them into a corner. Someone needs to scream and yell until they hear and either do something about it or admit they were RETARDED to promise it when there was no way to deliver. This guy isn't saying "We're sorry, but we just wont have time to get all the games compatible", he's saying "Hahaha, fuck, we gave you more than you deserve for your 400 dollars." This guy should be hung out to fucking dry by the game industry.

A common theme in the game industry is to promise and not deliver. I'm not sure what caused it, but in recent years, we've upgraded to promise, not deliver, and then insult everyone afterward who just bought your merchandise, or was going to do so. People with apathetic attitudes about this make me very angry. This is the way they feel about us as a whole. We are gamers, at their mercy because we HAVE to buy their shit. They think we live in basements, living on our parents money, waiting on baited breath for the next turd they ship out in a box with pretty logos on it.

It is up to US to change the game industry, because guys like Peter Moore are in charge and they shouldn't be.

[Johan]

BC is a huge issue for me, and Moore is a typical corporate liar for bailing on MS's promises regarding BC. I have about 80 Xbox games, 50 of which are not BC (and they're not crap titles, either...a lot of solid, and some spectacular, games).

One point everyone seems to have missed here is this: I've noticed in the forums a huge amount of concern for the financial health of game developers and the huge investment put into making these games. When MS (or any other console company) decides to make BC selective/incomplete, developers are hurt. The fact is that a lot of people who will buy a 360 won't be able to afford massive amounts of games, and BC titles give owners the chance to build a library AND developers to recoup even more on titles already developed...meaning solid profit to churn into making more 360 games. Moore is screwing developers, much the way MS did by rushing the system to launch, leaving developers with a rapidly dying Xbox and a tiny installed base of 360 owners, equalling a contraction in sales and tough times in the industry.

Also, imagine the reaction if Sony said the PS3 Blu-Ray drive would not be BC with DVD movies!!! This is essentially what MS is saying; your old library is dead and gone...replace it with shiny, new, expensive games which will then be out-of-date in just a few years more when the next system comes out without BC. This is ridiculous, and I'm with Perigon in questioning all the money, time and loyalty I put into this hobby...perhaps I need to just get a year-round pass to a local amusement park and screw this whole hobby like its principal execs and leaders are screwing me....

This whole thing makes me realize that Kutaragi and Moore are really just two sides to the same coin...BS being present on both sides, and the stench is getting to me.

[Zanzibar]

This guy isn't saying "We're sorry, but we just wont have time to get all the games compatible", he's saying "Hahaha, fuck, we gave you more than you deserve for your 400 dollars." This guy should be hung out to fucking dry by the game industry.

That is EXACTLY what I hate about Ken Kutaragi; it is spin, no other way to interpret it. It is THEM telling US what WE want, and not only that, insinuating that we're STUPID if we want something different.

[Watership]

Ninja Gaiden has framerate problems, Jade Empire works flawlessly, Psychonauts is not compatible.

Ninja Gaiden's framerate was fixed in a follow up update.

[Jack B]

I have to call Microsoft to the floor on this one. With all the good will they build up by providing free dashboard updates and creating a rockin' system, you don't tell people your goal is to get all old games working and then only deliver a small fraction of that citing that you 'pver delivered'.

I call bullshit!

Having said that, this is the only thing I can think of off of the top of my head that MS mislead me about with the 360.

While they're at it, why not give me a way to move over my old save games too? I went ahead and ordered one of these to get my old save games onto my 360.

http://us.codejunkies.com/images/article_images/images/XSATA-Xbox-360.jpg (http://us.codejunkies.com/news_reviews.asp?c=US&cr=USD&cs=$&r=0&l=1&p=8&i=8990&s=8)

Kamalot,

WOW. I forgot about that Xsata thing. Has it shipped yet? $49 isn't bad, I have tons of space on my PC drive. That may be the ticket, although, I'm sure we'll see 3rd party drives soon too.

Have you heard of any 3rd party drives?

Also, to chip in on BC. I still have my old Xbox, but I'm too busy with 360 games to bother. I booted Forza once and Halo once and that's been it since November.

The PS3 should have the same issue. They're also using a software emulator. It takes a lot of effort to certify and tweak all the old titles. Sony has bit off a ton by promising 100% backwards compatibility.

Other than an isolated PR comment, Microsoft hadn't promised 100% compatibility. It was a big bitch prior to shipment, because they weren't promising 100%. Sony has promised very recently. Expect similar flames for Sony.

[Watership]

The fact that they're big sellers doesn't mean they should be prime backwards compatibility candidates. How many people buying that game specifically are going to own a 360 or even know that a 360 can play (some) original Xbox games?

Some games were specifically targetted to be emulated. Like Halo and Forza. Some games were "happy accidents", that just happened to work due to a emulation work on other games crossing over.

Moore's comment was poorly worded and obviously angers gamers, but the point he's making is correct. When xbox 360 engineers went with the Power PC/ATI architecture they were screwed from the onset. They would have to emulate CISC/Nvidia code for every game. It's a monumental coding achievement to get THIS many games. They got the key big selling games on xbox there, they are going to add more in the future.

Moore originally promised BC with Xbox's top games. Other people said that they're goal is to emulate all games. So 6 months after launch, we have over 200 games. Let's see what happens after the next update.

But I can promise you that almost every game will be emulated in the end and there will be someone saying .. "Bruce Lee doesn't work, *** fucked me!"

[donkeydrop]

Peter Moore is such a jackass. Even for a marketing guy it's amazing he can still have a job. This is the same same guy who defended the core 360 by saying that some people like to play their games without saving :p

[Vanthar]

Other than an isolated PR comment, Microsoft hadn't promised 100% compatibility. It was a big bitch prior to shipment, because they weren't promising 100%. Sony has promised very recently. Expect similar flames for Sony.

Sorry just wondering where you'd heard for sure they were doing software emulation? I heard speculation on the fact, but I didn't think they had announced software emulation.

[Planetbuster]

Man you guys sure are making me love my computer more and more. And I even feel I have some things to gripe about in that area to...

[absolut taco]

P.S. As a side note, there weren't any ps2 games worth playing its first year, so I would have been more interested in it being backward compatible with the dreamcast :)
I think you mean sideways compatible. ;)

[Jack B]

Sorry just wondering where you'd heard for sure they were doing software emulation? I heard speculation on the fact, but I didn't think they had announced software emulation.

Vanthar,

It was a bit burried by some of the more exciting Sony news from E3. It will get plenty of airtime soon enough.

"The PS2 actually included PS1 hardware: the input processor for the PS2 was luckily the same chip as the main processor for the PS1. This was somewhat of a lucky break, and it meant that all the PS1 games would play perfectly on the PS2 with very little effort on Sony's part. This was a large selling point at launch when gamers could play all of their PS1 games. Without that hardware, it would have been much more difficult to get every game running so quickly. This is what Sony faces with the PS3. The PS2 is an infamously complicated system, having to emulate it in software for the PS3 will be a challenging task. If the early reports are to be believed progress is coming steadily, with many titles already up and running. Let's hope so.

http://www.ps3411.com/show/news/120

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/top/ps3-backwards-compatibility-moving-forward-169359.php

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/04/24/playstation-3-not-100-backwards-compatible/

http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/2006/4/26/3759

[cubebomb]

now we know not to buy the xbox540 whenever that shit comes out :D :p
you guys are complaining way too much about the space and BC of the 360
Im gonna go with the ps3, dont care if is 600 but according to the "headlines" they have, its worth it, on the long run( hopefully they not telling lies about the Online service being free) then in 4 years from now ill be saving myself 200bucks,
:p

[nein89]

Sure. Here's (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=16310) the closest thing I could find to a source on the software emulation story.

Edit: Bah. Beat me to it.

[Jack B]

Sure. Here's (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=16310) the closest thing I could find to a source on the software emulation story.

Edit: Bah. Beat me to it.

Yeah, it's amazing how you don't hear a peep out of Sony fans on this issue. I guess most still remember the hardware emulation of the PS2 and/or just "want to believe Sony won't pull the rug out...".

Given how many features Sony loses as we get closer to launch, I don't know why this one will be a big surprise.

Sony has so many of these issues, this one gets kind of burried. It's not big news... Yet, anyway, but just wait until Sony announces, "Well, the PS3 is supporting all the PS2 and PS1 games anyone actually "cares" about...". Fans will have a fit.

Plus, this should be far more difficult than Microsoft's issue, since they have PS One and PS2 titles to certify.

One difference I see, is that Microsoft lost money on Xbox's and Sony made money on PS2's so maybe they'd see more value in supporting old titles to keep PS2 sales going for another couple of years. Especially in 3rd world countries or homes without Next Gen budgets.

We'll see. It's a big job though.

[Kefkataran]

But I can promise you that almost every game will be emulated in the end and there will be someone saying .. "Bruce Lee doesn't work, *** fucked me!"

Well, if they do get almost every game emulated, I know I'll be happy.

[absolut taco]

To me this is also directly related to feeling ripped off when companies are charging $60 per title for the 360. I have seen Tomb Raider Legend for $35 on the original Xbox. It's of course still $60 on the 360. That's nearly double the price just to have the game run in high resolution. That's ridiculious. Maybe I'll just buy the Xbox version, I mean, the 360 upscales it anyway, right? Oh wait, that's right. The 360 isn't backwards compatible with Tomb Raider. It's also not backwards compatible with the $20 versions of Gun or Tony Hawk I see everywhere in stores. Nor the $30 copies of King Kong and Burnout 4. No, if I want to play any of those games on my 360, I'll just have to pay double that price. As a matter of fact, if I want to play any games on my 360, I have to pay $60.
Let me get this straight - You demand that Xbox versions of games that are available on both systems be playable on the 360? What planet are you from? What kind of idiotic waste of resources would that be? And if you think all 360 games are $60, let me clue you in on a few that aren't:
PGR3, Kameo, PDZ: $50
Top Spin 2, Burnout, Pingpong: $40
Plus, I've seen sales where Oblivion was $45, GRAW was $50 and so on.

[Jack B]

Let me get this straight - You demand that Xbox versions of games that are available on both systems be playable on the 360? What planet are you from? What kind of idiotic waste of resources would that be? And if you think all 360 games are $60, let me clue you in on a few that aren't:
PGR3, Kameo, PDZ: $50
Top Spin 2, Burnout, Pingpong: $40
Plus, I've seen sales where Oblivion was $45, GRAW was $50 and so on.

Absolut taco, I'd agree on the pricing.

Eternal Gamer, you have a point on the older ports. If it's just a port from the old xbox to the 360, the 1st batch of games had resolutions that weren't too much different.

King Kong is a decent example. It was better, but not by much. As we leave the port phase (can't be soon enough for me) that won't be the case.

Also, just to be clear the upscaling to 720p doesn't nothing for the resolution. Same crappy graphics, just on 720p. The anti-aliasing does help somewhat and some backwards compatible games do look "a bit better".

Hopefully, you'll do some better price shopping for your future 360 games. As for backwards compatibility. You're likely stuck. Just use your old xbox, buy a used one or stay pissed.

I predict the issue with the PS3 will be almost identical, for what it's worth.

[JediSanf]

Well, if they do get almost every game emulated, I know I'll be happy.

They really don't have to even get "almost every game". Had they taken the top 100 (or even 75) most requested games from that xbox forum page (the one that got tanked) and made a specific effort just to BC those I'd probably be happy. I don't need every game to be compatible but I would love to be able to play Psychonauts and Stubbs (as well as a few other critically acclaimed games I missed over the years).

[Vanthar]

Vanthar,

It was a bit burried by some of the more exciting Sony news from E3. It will get plenty of airtime soon enough.



http://www.ps3411.com/show/news/120

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/top/ps3-backwards-compatibility-moving-forward-169359.php

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/04/24/playstation-3-not-100-backwards-compatible/

http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/2006/4/26/3759


I don't really see any of those as confirmations of software emulation. It seems like thats just one 'source' that's reporting this. I was looking for more of an announcement. I guess I'm in denial and just hoping they stick a ps2/1 in the ps3.

[motor]

It's not about emulating every game that ever came out on the xbox. It's about a smooth transition. Developers would have been happy to work with Microsoft to get their xbox games to work on the 360. Microsoft should have ensured that every game that came out on the xbox from july 2005 on ran on the 360. It would have made a lot of good xbox games not get wiped out in the transition and it would have helped a ton of game companies. Microsoft blew it and hurt a ton of their partners. If you think the xbox died soon after the 360 wait until the next cycle, nobody is going to trust Microsoft, expect the flow of xbox 360 titles to stop the xmas after the 720 announcement.

[Jack B]

I don't really see any of those as confirmations of software emulation. It seems like thats just one 'source' that's reporting this. I was looking for more of an announcement. I guess I'm in denial and just hoping they stick a ps2/1 in the ps3.

True... So, far we no Sony exec confirming nor denying. We'll have to wait and see what shakes out.

They may have problems just fitting the PS2, PS One chips in the PS3 case and/or have heat issues, even if they did want to... We'll see, I guess.

For now, I'm guessing emulation, but I'm not 100% sure on that, just my best guess.

[Johan]

It's not about emulating every game that ever came out on the xbox. It's about a smooth transition. Developers would have been happy to work with Microsoft to get their xbox games to work on the 360. Microsoft should have ensured that every game that came out on the xbox from july 2005 on ran on the 360. It would have made a lot of good xbox games not get wiped out in the transition and it would have helped a ton of game companies. Microsoft blew it and hurt a ton of their partners. If you think the xbox died soon after the 360 wait until the next cycle, nobody is going to trust Microsoft, expect the flow of xbox 360 titles to stop the xmas after the 720 announcement.

My previous post agrees with you...MS really stuck it to the developers and the Xbox is dying an incredibly quick and sad death. And it IS sad, because with such a small 360 install base, developers need to be able to sell games to both systems to recoup costs and actually make money, but MS didn't give a rat's ass about this issue, and rushed their system out to beat Sony and Nintendo to market, damaging the financials of many developers for the past year, and into the next one.

And we get to do it all over again in another three or four years...whoooopeeee.

[Sayshu]

I was wondering when they announced full BC how I was going to hook Steel Battalion to the system without some Official USB to Breakaway Cable, which I didn't see then and don't see coming now. I wished they would do full BC, but even then we can all admit we were lying to ourselves believing it would actually happen.

All this does is further reinstate the obvious that most companies could give a shit less about their customers, and are focusing on the bottom $, because full BC is to them, in their eyes, flushing money down the toilet to please the select few.

[pacman]

you know, it's like Peter Moore just tried to single-handedly ruin all the good feelings MS has garnered from gamers...

[Zechs01]

At the sony E306 press conference sony announced the PS3 would be able to play over 15000 PS2 titles through emulation. (Im going to go watch the conference again to double check)

[Twigz'N'Berries]

Just read the news...wow.

As far as I'm concerned, MS has just stumbled down to the Sony level on credibility. BC was a huge issue and one of the reasons I early adopted was because I was under the mistaken impression that they were going to make all of the games (or at least a good portion of them) BC. I got that impression by Moore stating it was their goal to make every game compatible. Wow, I guess I was dumb.

The first couple of waves of 360 games hasn't convinced me that my decision has been a great one...but Live has definitely been an upgrade. I used to support the Xbox because promises were kept...not so sure about them now.

I guess the Wii will definitely get some love when it releases.

[Jack B]

Just read the news...wow.

As far as I'm concerned, MS has just stumbled down to the Sony level on credibility. BC was a huge issue and one of the reasons I early adopted was because I was under the mistaken impression that they were going to make all of the games (or at least a good portion of them) BC. I got that impression by Moore stating it was their goal to make every game compatible. Wow, I guess I was dumb.

The first couple of waves of 360 games hasn't convinced me that my decision has been a great one...but Live has definitely been an upgrade. I used to support the Xbox because promises were kept...not so sure about them now.

I guess the Wii will definitely get some love when it releases.

Twigz'N'Berries, I'd agree. Microsoft has underdelivered on their "majority of the best selling games" promise. I checked the top 200 from www.gamerankings.com and they have about 1/3 of the top 200. Not exactly, the majority of best selling games.

However, I wouldn't say the backwards compatibility issues puts their 360 misses in the league of Sony. Sony is definitely the league leader in over promising and under delivering, although Microsoft is guilty in this case of the same.

Now, technically they backed off their "All" games promises in May of 2005, to the "majority" stand within the couple months leading up to launch, so no one who would have checked was guaranteed their title would make the list. Still, I'd say 33% needed to be closer to 75%.

Having said that, I'd say Sony is really going to have a big problem. If Microsoft has about 200 games with backward compatibility using emulation software, then Sony's promise of 13,000 needs some serious damage control...

Unless, they use a chip instead of emulation. They may still do that although, I'm guessing their size problem (ie fitting the components into their already large chassis and the heat and cost problems may deter them from that approach.

If Sony did drop the chip solution in before launch it would likely help them alot. In one sense the consumer already expects it, but still it wouldn't be the negative a train wreck of non compatible games would give them.

Imagine if Sony only had 200 of 13,000 games (7,000+ on PS1 and 5,000+ on PS2) backwards compatible?

[Kamalot]

Unless, they use a chip instead of emulation. They may still do that although, I'm guessing their size problem (ie fitting the components into their already large chassis and the heat and cost problems may deter them from that approach.

If Sony did drop the chip solution in before launch it would likely help them alot. In one sense the consumer already expects it, but still it wouldn't be the negative a train wreck of non compatible games would give them.

Imagine if Sony only had 200 of 4,000 games backwards compatible?
I always assumed Sony would use a PS2 chip in the PS3. The early moel PS2s used a PS1 chip inside for a sound processor. It made it easy to run PS1 games. The late model PS2 had a redesigned processor that included the earlier PS1 functions on the same chip. The most recent late model PS2 chip is the one in the slim version of the PS2. Seing how tiny the slim version of the PS2 is, I don't see any problem fitting it into the canyon that is the PS3 case.

Sony has it in the bag when it comes to playing PS1 and PS2 games on the PS3.

Anyone who says I hate Sony should read this one---^ :D

[Zechs01]

yep double checked the press conference they said the PS3 will be backward compatable with over 15,000 titles they never said if that was just PS2 or both PS2 & PS1 also they never said anything about emulation

[Jack B]

I always assumed Sony would use a PS2 chip in the PS3. The early moel PS2s used a PS1 chip inside for a sound processor. It made it easy to run PS1 games. The late model PS2 had a redesigned processor that included the earlier PS1 functions on the same chip. The most recent late model PS2 chip is the one in the slim version of the PS2. Seing how tiny the slim version of the PS2 is, I don't see any problem fitting it into the canyon that is the PS3 case.

Sony has it in the bag when it comes to playing PS1 and PS2 games on the PS3.

Anyone who says I hate Sony should read this one---^ :D

Kamalot,

Note: I looked up the numbers and I had to edit my post. It's 13,000 approx. titles...

Anyway, I posted the links to the speculation that it was emulation. I'd agree it would be much smarter to include the chip like they did with the PS2...

We'll see if the rumors are correct... I really can't say one way or the other.

[Wyrm]

I'm just going to buy a small PS2 and a bunch of games for it for dirt cheap. I wont get a PS3 until they're 200 bucks, or raining from the sky. Whichever comes first.

[BenSkywalker]

Emulating the PS2 on the PS3 should be childs play compared to what MS promised they were going to do with the 360. Cell emulating a MIPS based processor should be, relatively speaking, trivial. The only part that I see that could be somewhat difficult would be working out VU0/VU1 and mapping them to SPEs properly- but I would much rather be looking at that then trying to map a x86 native title to PPC(although doing that the other way is even more of a nightmare).

In either case, the CPU factor isn't as difficult to deal with as the graphics engine is. Getting Xenos to emulate a NV2A was amusing to think about from day one(poor SOBs who got stuck with that job, I feel for them). Certain hardwired functionality that was exposed on the XSDK was not standard DX features and it wasn't something ATi offered on any of their parts. Trying to emulate a DX 8.1 GPU from a low level on a DX ~9.5 GPU is asking for trouble. Their isn't a massive amount of performance overhead to deal with as there is in the case of either of the CPUs(where they can operate at 10% of the native speed and it is fast enough, Xenos has to be closer to 50%-60%). Here Sony has an enormous advantage getting emulation going- the GS lacks features that the Voodoo1 had(basic single pass bilinear as a single example). The only real strength the GS ever had was its raw pixel fill which could only be utilized for Z/stencil only ops if you wanted to remotely approach its peak. The RSX dwarfs the GS in every way by a staggering amount- a good ten generations or so worth of 3D hardware seperates the two. A HAL to map GS calls to RSX should be very simple to do in the general sense.

MS needs a per application scheme to get their titles running in BC- Sony has the brute force to run full PS2 emulation with, relatively speaking, little trouble. The only area I can see some real issues coming up is if some title exploited certain functionality of the GS in a very odd way(not sure what that would be, some mingling of VUs with GS handled data perhaps, although if it was common enough I'm sure FlexIO has more then enough bandwidth to cover it).

[Sparky]

Oh and FYI, Microsoft has quietly stopped producing the original XB Hardware, so if you were going to get an extra system in case your current one goes kablooey, now would be that time.

[Kefkataran]

Oh and FYI, Microsoft has quietly stopped producing the original XB Hardware, so if you were going to get an extra system in case your current one goes kablooey, now would be that time.

Linkies????

[Sparky]

I am a home office employee for a major retail chain and we were told approx. 3 weeks ago from our buyers the supply was ending. If you want proof, try to find a system on BestBuy.com or EB Games.com or Gamestop, etc. I think Circuit City.com is still displaying them (but who knows for how long). We have a small supply in our warehouses, but not for much longer. The Forza bundle and the lack of dropping the price point was just a way to slow sales and demand. The fat lady is tuning up for that song...

[Kefkataran]

Interesting... you think there'd be at least a new release slipped somewhere. Hm.

[Kamalot]

Kamalot,

WOW. I forgot about that Xsata thing. Has it shipped yet? $49 isn't bad, I have tons of space on my PC drive. That may be the ticket, although, I'm sure we'll see 3rd party drives soon too.

Have you heard of any 3rd party drives?

Also, to chip in on BC. I still have my old Xbox, but I'm too busy with 360 games to bother. I booted Forza once and Halo once and that's been it since November.

The PS3 should have the same issue. They're also using a software emulator. It takes a lot of effort to certify and tweak all the old titles. Sony has bit off a ton by promising 100% backwards compatibility.

Other than an isolated PR comment, Microsoft hadn't promised 100% compatibility. It was a big bitch prior to shipment, because they weren't promising 100%. Sony has promised very recently. Expect similar flames for Sony.
I ordered the xbox 360 XSATA attachment, but haven't gotten it yet.

http://us.codejunkies.com/news_reviews.asp?c=US&cr=USD&cs=$&r=0&l=1&p=8&i=8990&s=8

If you are interested, I'll put up a full review when I get it in.

Aside from my wife's save file for Yourself Fitness (http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/exercise/the-obese-and-outofshape-all-love-maya-177898.php) and my saves for Prince of Persia: Sands of Time, there isn't anything else I want from my original Xbox. I'd like to be able to play OutRun on the 360, but if I can't I'll play Geometry Wars instead.

[Kamalot]

yep double checked the press conference they said the PS3 will be backward compatable with over 15,000 titles they never said if that was just PS2 or both PS2 & PS1 also they never said anything about emulation
Well, citing the Sony press conference as a factful source is a mistake. They often leave out important information in their press conference. Did they mention in their press conference that the 'cheap-ass' model of the PS3 lacked Wi-Fi, memory card slots and HDMI? Didn't they claim last year that Killzone was real-time?

Just because it came from (or wasn't covered in) a Sony press event does not make it any more true or false. Sony's press events have absolutely no bearing on reality whatsoever.

[Kefkataran]

If you are interested, I'll put up a full review when I get it in.

I'd love if you'd toss one up on the forums!

[Kamalot]

Kamalot,

Note: I looked up the numbers and I had to edit my post. It's 13,000 approx. titles...

Anyway, I posted the links to the speculation that it was emulation. I'd agree it would be much smarter to include the chip like they did with the PS2...

We'll see if the rumors are correct... I really can't say one way or the other.
Well, I'm going to put my money on the PS3 working with almost all PS1 and PS2 games through the use of a chip. History shows that including the chip from the previous generation works fairly well, and Sony has done it in the past with great success.

Sony has been pulling a lot of shady and stupid things over the years with increasing frequency. While Sony has proven themselves quite capable of not only shooting themself in the foot, but putting both of their legs in the wood-chipper, I still think they will go the chip route.

Come on, Sony can't be THAT stupid, can they?

[Kamalot]

I'd love if you'd toss one up on the forums!
Let me see what I can do. It's been about a week since I ordered, so it should be showing up any time now.

[Jack B]

Well, I'm going to put my money on the PS3 working with almost all PS1 and PS2 games through the use of a chip. History shows that including the chip from the previous generation works fairly well, and Sony has done it in the past with great success.

Sony has been pulling a lot of shady and stupid things over the years with increasing frequency. While Sony has proven themselves quite capable of not only shooting themself in the foot, but putting both of their legs in the wood-chipper, I still think they will go the chip route.

Come on, Sony can't be THAT stupid, can they?

Agreed. Seems like a no brainer. Sony can only lose with this one. If they support all 15,000 titles, it's what they said, although a bonus vs the 360 for sure. If they don't it's a train wreck.

Their are 5 things that make me wonder however.

1. Size of the components has been rumored to be an issue and the PS3 likely can't get any bigger.
2. Cost. Another chip means more cost to Sony for each unit.
3. Rumors - We've heard rumors. Rumors yes, but no confirmation by Sony of a chip solution. They could put that to rest, but like Microsoft before them they haven't announced the chip solution, so it's still up in the air.
4. Sony's on a roll shooting themselves in the foot.

I'm with you though, I still think they'll do the chip solution, but I'm only 62.3% sure... :)

[Kamalot]

Agreed. Seems like a no brainer. Sony can only lose with this one. If they support all 15,000 titles, it's what they said, although a bonus vs the 360 for sure. If they don't it's a train wreck.I also believe Sony came out and publically roasted Microsoft's BC plan, stating the PS3 would work with all their old games. While that is already a white lie from Sony, I'd consider it upheld if they can get 95% of the games working out of the box.

True though that the only thing Sony can do at this point is pull it off, or look like an asshole, again.

[Zechs01]

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=17353
“Sony are now making people pay an extra few hundred pounds for a Blu-Ray DVD drive which we don't know is going to be the standard in the next-generation DVD formats,” Thompson insisted.

“This is the company that brought out Betamax – we don't quite know where they're going to go with this,” he added, in a pointed reference to Sony's defeat in the format war against VHS.

Microsoft believes Blu-Ray's inclusion in PS3 plays right into the US firm's hands, since it is offering Xbox 360 users the option to upgrade to next-generation movie tech later this year with the release of a standalone HD-DVD drive.

“If gamers over time choose to go to HD-DVD we're going to give them the choice to do that, but we're not going to force them to buy that day one,” Thompson remarked.

“I find it concerning for consumers that they're being forced into a purchase... I don't think they need to make that decision for another two, three years maybe. Sony now have a very interesting business model I think they're going to find challenging.”
Microsoft is at it again, they have to be the biggest trash talkers ive ever seen.

[absolut taco]

I'm with you though, I still think they'll do the chip solution, but I'm only 62.3% sure... :)
I would gladly pay $50 less for a gimped version that didn't have those chips and thus was not BC.

[BenSkywalker]

The latest PS2 revision no longer has the original PSX chip in it- they are running with full software emulation as of this point.

[Kamalot]

The latest PS2 revision no longer has the original PSX chip in it- they are running with full software emulation as of this point.
I'd like to see more information on this. Linkage?

[Jack B]

The latest PS2 revision no longer has the original PSX chip in it- they are running with full software emulation as of this point.

That seems an odd thing to do. Go back and do all the emulation testing when they already have the chip solution working?

Maybe to save money (assuming the labor to test, QA is less than the cost of the chip), but I'd like a URL as well.

[Jack B]

I would gladly pay $50 less for a gimped version that didn't have those chips and thus was not BC.

Ditto here, but I'm the type of user, that wouldn't sell their old console and haven't gone back more than about 2 hours worth of last gen play on the Xbox.

It's ancient history to me, but I know a lot of people on a budget sell their old consoles or they've broken or they don't want two sets of wires...

[jspeak32]

I think you mean sideways compatible. ;)

Backwards, Sideways, Missionary, whatever floats your boat! :)

[mister_slim]

My reasons for wanting close to full BC is that my first Xbox died and I had to get another one, which are only available at $180 and only for a limited time. Also, there's a lot of games that'll never really be duplicated. Gunvalkyrie or JSRF, say, will likely never see sequels, at least not in the near future. There's a lot of games like that which form an important part of the history of gaming and I'd like to see them be accessible. Especially with Xbox hardware only available for $180.
True... So, far we no Sony exec confirming nor denying. We'll have to wait and see what shakes out.

They may have problems just fitting the PS2, PS One chips in the PS3 case and/or have heat issues, even if they did want to... We'll see, I guess.

For now, I'm guessing emulation, but I'm not 100% sure on that, just my best guess.
Kutaragi said BC would be a mix of hardware and software. Sony didn't promise 100%, but the implication was that they expected to be close (the PS2 isn't 100% either). The PS2 hardware would be much easier to emulate, anyway, since Sony owns all the components and and it's not such specialized hardware.

[Jack B]

My reasons for wanting close to full BC is that my first Xbox died and I had to get another one, which are only available at $180 and only for a limited time. Also, there's a lot of games that'll never really be duplicated. Gunvalkyrie or JSRF, say, will likely never see sequels, at least not in the near future. There's a lot of games like that which form an important part of the history of gaming and I'd like to see them be accessible. Especially with Xbox hardware only available for $180.

Kutaragi said BC would be a mix of hardware and software. Sony didn't promise 100%, but the implication was that they expected to be close (the PS2 isn't 100% either). The PS2 hardware would be much easier to emulate, anyway, since Sony owns all the components and and it's not such specialized hardware.

Thanks Mister_Slim. Do you have a link to Kutaragi's statement, because this seems to come up a lot. Thanks.

[BenSkywalker]

Starting with model SCPH-75000 and all newer revisions removed the PSX hardware- I can't find the exact technical documentation(I'll keep looking) but the problems are well known-

http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2005Oct/bga20051024032885.htm

The changes, which went beyond removal of the PSX-I/O chip, also created a few issues with PS2 titles(although mainly it was PSX games).

[Zechs01]

Oh and FYI, Microsoft has quietly stopped producing the original XB Hardware, so if you were going to get an extra system in case your current one goes kablooey, now would be that time.
I think u might be right lookin on EBgames, and Gamestop they are all backordered
http://www.ebgames.com/search.asp?keyword=&platform=26&filter=0&lookin=title&rangeFrom=0&rangeTo=all&genre=31&selection=ALL&searchtype=adv&sortby=default&OrderAscDesc=Asc&imageFlag=show&statcd=&searchbutton.x=79&searchbutton.y=17
http://www.gamestop.com/search.asp?keyword=&platform=26&filter=0&lookin=title&rangeFrom=0&rangeTo=all&genre=31&selection=ALL&searchtype=adv&sortby=default&OrderAscDesc=Asc&imageFlag=show&statcd=&searchbutton.x=79&searchbutton.y=17

[mister_slim]

Thanks Mister_Slim. Do you have a link to Kutaragi's statement, because this seems to come up a lot. Thanks.
I thought it was from E3 '05, but apparently it was from an interview from just after: translation of Impress Watch interview (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=120454).

[Kamalot]

Pardon me. I have to go eat my hat.

That means that while the PS3 won't come with complete PlayStation 2 or PlayStation processors bundled inside (the PS2 contained original PlayStation chipsets to allow backwards compatibility), it may have to imitate some aspects of the earlier consoles' innards. (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=120454)

And here I was thinking that Sony would do the smart thing by implementing a PS2/PS1 processor in the unit. Why on earth they would take such a difficult route? This must have cost them a fortune.

[Kefkataran]

And here I was thinking that Sony would do the smart thing by implementing a PS2/PS1 processor in the unit. Why on earth they would take such a difficult route? This must have cost them a fortune.

Wasn't someone saying earlier that despite not having PS1/2 processors, the hardware running on PS3 makes it easier to emulate PS1/2 stuff than 360 is to emulate Xbox stuff?

[Jack B]

Starting with model SCPH-75000 and all newer revisions removed the PSX hardware- I can't find the exact technical documentation(I'll keep looking) but the problems are well known-

http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2005Oct/bga20051024032885.htm

The changes, which went beyond removal of the PSX-I/O chip, also created a few issues with PS2 titles(although mainly it was PSX games).

Thanks Ben,

Interesting. It's impressive that Sony did as well as they did with the software emulation. Maybe they will pull it off with the PS3.

If so, I think that's a would be a bonus for the PS3.

[Jack B]

BenSkywalker,

Forgot to mention, you haven't responded to my question of "what's your gamertag?"...

Here's a URL now for the Evil Avatar leaderboard. Please enter your Gamertag. You've ripped pretty hard on the 360's Live service and I'd just like to make sure you own a 360.

I certainly would expect you do, but I'm puzzled that you haven't responded. Here's the URL.

http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13470

[Kamalot]

Wasn't someone saying earlier that despite not having PS1/2 processors, the hardware running on PS3 makes it easier to emulate PS1/2 stuff than 360 is to emulate Xbox stuff?
If emulating PS1/2 games was so easy, why did Sony highlight a PS2 game (Gran Turismo) running in HD in their press conference for 20 min? That's longer than any other part of their press conference, just for emulation?

When watching that part of the press conference, I wanted to crawl under a rock and hide. It was embarassing.

That would have been like Microsoft showing 20 min of Halo 2 footage at their press conference last year, prior to the launch of the 360. It would have been a colossal joke.

[Kefkataran]

If emulating PS1/2 games was so easy, why did Sony highlight a PS2 game (Gran Turismo) running in HD in their press conference for 20 min? That's longer than any other part of their press conference, just for emulation?


Because they're idiots? I thought we were all already agreed on that. And the point of that wasn't emulation, because it wasn't an emulated game, I thought? It was an HD revision of a PS2 game.

[Kamalot]

I just got my XSATA and set up a little article about it here.

http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14383&highlight=XSATA