PS3 720P Gameplay Videos

[Guy Mariano]

PS3 Portal (http://www.ps3portal.com) has posted 720P PS3 gameplay videos (http://www.ps3portal.com/ps3/article/419.html) straight from the E3 kiosks.

The videos are of Resistance, Genji 2, Gran Turismo HD, Heavenly Sword, Sonic, Virtua Tennis 3, Wardevil, Warhawk, Mobile Suit Gundam.

[bumgut]

Good bandwith on these... for now.

[holysin]

Gran Turismo HD is so pathetic :(

[TKO]

Yeah? I must download that one then. I saw the Warhawk one, and while it looked quite pretty, I don't see anything to justify that crazy price-tag. I expect the Wii should be able to do something that looks almost as good, y'know? (Yeah, I know it won't be as good as that.. but, honestly, it'll look similar enough that who's gonna care?)

Wasn't Warhawk the one that was retrofitted recently to use the Shake part of the dual-shake controller? If it was then I'm worried. They couldn't hit a thing on that demo. :)

[TrackZero]

<troll>Nice, it only took them a few weeks after E3 to post their high-def game videos, which MS had out day-of.</troll>

[Mike Jones]

Gran Turismo HD is so pathetic :(

I agree it looks nothing like Gran Truismo 5

[Paranoia]

Genji 2 will be the killer app for PS3 due to the highly specialize CELL based effects such as REAL TIME WEAPON CHANGE for MASSIVE DAMAGE.

[bone_matrix]

Genji 2 will be the killer app for PS3 due to the highly specialize CELL based effects such as REAL TIME WEAPON CHANGE for MASSIVE DAMAGE.


No no no, you had to hit the innovative weak point on the giant crab for the MASSIVE DAMAGE!!

[bumgut]

No, you had to hit the innovative weak point on the giant crab for RIIIDGE RACERRR!!

[dieselduck]

Grabbed the Resistace one.. the game looks good but it's certainly nothing that couldn't easily be done on the 360 or on a $1000 PC.
If this had come out a year ago it would have been on par with COD2.. but these videos probably do more harm than good right now considering they are supposed to represent a true next generation.

[ÜberJumper]

The gameplay in the gundam one looks weak :-(

[Xerxes]

Ummm wait... Why is Warhawk, Crimson Skies apparently with one flashy jet and none of the fun.

[Pumped'Up]

Eh Sony skeptics, let us know how the games are when you actually freakn play them.

[Draft]

Eh Sony skeptics, let us know how the games are when you actually freakn play them.lol. Already falling back on the old, "it's not graphics, it's gameplay" arguement, eh? Bubububu this game is two hundred dollars more fun!

[Lutheran]

C'mon Warhawk looked pretty good to me , I mean just because you hate Sony doesn't mean you need to be automatically against all the games too..I can't stand Sony but I would play this game in a heartbeat.

[Xerxes]

You can play this game. You can even play it on Live. Crimson Skies..

[Adam Blue]

So in conclusion, the high price-tag is for the Blu-Ray drive, which I don't think most of us give a shit about when it comes to dishing out the cash.

I wouldn't pay $600 to 'give it a chance'. Only $250 for the Wii, and that oozes large amounts of fuckin-fun gameplay.

[Siraris]

Honestly, the flamers on this site make me laugh.

First of all, those were very early demo's shown at E3. The difference between a demo and a final can be HUGE, especially when the final development hardware has not even been used to render the games.

Second of all, these are demo's of FIRST generation games for the PS3, not second, not third, but first. I think what was shown was extremely impressive and gives a lot for people to look forward to.

Thirdly, most of the games shown were not even close to complete. Warhawk was said to only be 20% complete, 20%! That's incredibly early for a game to be showing off the level of quality that we saw at the show.

As for GT:HD, did anyone actually listen to the show? That was done in 3 weeks using the GT4 engine on the PS3. It was just a tech demo, it was not the next GT. They implemented a few features in the game to show how quickly and easily it was to port GT4 to the PS3 and improve the graphical quality. I thought the scenes with the Grand Canyon were very impressive for being done in only 3 weeks.

Wait until the system comes out guys, seriously. Not to bash the PS3, but I think that the games shown look a lot more impressive than any of the 360 launch titles. I also feel like if you directly compare the PS3 to the 360, the 360 would be more than the PS3 if you added the features to the 360. I mean add on a 4 year subscription to X-Box LIVE, and you're up to $600. If you add on a HD-DVD drive, a bigger HDD, bluetooth, memory card slots, the more advanced controller, and you're well over $800 for the same thing you're paying $599 for. You also don't get the backlog of your PS1 and PS2 games.

People really need to look into things before drawing conclusions.

[Kamalot]

Wait until the system comes out guys, seriously. Not to bash the PS3, but I think that the games shown look a lot more impressive than any of the 360 launch titles. I also feel like if you directly compare the PS3 to the 360, the 360 would be more than the PS3 if you added the features to the 360. I mean add on a 4 year subscription to X-Box LIVE, and you're up to $600. If you add on a HD-DVD drive, a bigger HDD, bluetooth, memory card slots, the more advanced controller, and you're well over $800 for the same thing you're paying $599 for. You also don't get the backlog of your PS1 and PS2 games.

People really need to look into things before drawing conclusions.
Damn! You are so right! The 360 would cost more than the PS3 if I added a bunch of stuff nobody cares about and mystic promises from Sony. I'd also have to slow down the drive read speed to make my 360 games load more slowly to match the PS3's too. Oh! I'd have to get rid of the rumble in the controller, you know...the one that lets you know you are pushing too far in Rockstar Table Tennis or that you are loosing traction in racing games. Gotta add Bluetooth cause, well, cause it's a fancy buzzword. I'll have to add more advertisements to Live as well and have my console break down more often than a fanboy's logic argument.

Seriously, I love watching Sony people flail about looking to justify the enormous price tag; attempting to create value statements that no sensible gamer is interested in.

I wonder how long we'll be privy to such comedic gold.

[maharahaj]

Resistance Fall of Man has piqued my interest, I suggest those who like shooters check it out...

[SuperMonkeyFighter2]

Honestly, the flamers on this site make me laugh.

First of all, those were very early demo's shown at E3. The difference between a demo and a final can be HUGE, especially when the final development hardware has not even been used to render the games.

Second of all, these are demo's of FIRST generation games for the PS3, not second, not third, but first. I think what was shown was extremely impressive and gives a lot for people to look forward to.

Thirdly, most of the games shown were not even close to complete. Warhawk was said to only be 20% complete, 20%! That's incredibly early for a game to be showing off the level of quality that we saw at the show.

As for GT:HD, did anyone actually listen to the show? That was done in 3 weeks using the GT4 engine on the PS3. It was just a tech demo, it was not the next GT. They implemented a few features in the game to show how quickly and easily it was to port GT4 to the PS3 and improve the graphical quality. I thought the scenes with the Grand Canyon were very impressive for being done in only 3 weeks.

Wait until the system comes out guys, seriously. Not to bash the PS3, but I think that the games shown look a lot more impressive than any of the 360 launch titles. I also feel like if you directly compare the PS3 to the 360, the 360 would be more than the PS3 if you added the features to the 360. I mean add on a 4 year subscription to X-Box LIVE, and you're up to $600. If you add on a HD-DVD drive, a bigger HDD, bluetooth, memory card slots, the more advanced controller, and you're well over $800 for the same thing you're paying $599 for. You also don't get the backlog of your PS1 and PS2 games.

People really need to look into things before drawing conclusions.

Sorry for such a big quote ... anyway, played Warhawk and Fallen at the show ... for E3 demos, they blew chunks. You know what though ... you are right. 1st gen E3 showings always suck. Remember the N64? Besides Mario, ALL of the games on the floor sucked. Same was true of the PS2 and Xbox (even 360) ... not one good demo to be shown at their respective E3's.

With that said, I think a lot of the flak on this board doesn't comes from the fact that Sony had a shitty E3 showing, it's the fact that they lack an exclusive killer app that would justify the cash. Granted, such feelings vary user to user ... not to mention that people feel the need to jump on the hate wagon. However, have you seen anything yet that makes you want to own this system yet? I'm sure at some point, that answer will be yes ... just not now.

[AversionFX]

lol. Already falling back on the old, "it's not graphics, it's gameplay" arguement, eh? Bubububu this game is two hundred dollars more fun!


No, it's "don't be retarded, bitch when you play it and find out whether or not it sucks." There isn't anything more stupid than people bitching about a game they haven't even played.

[Mike Jones]

I'd also have to slow down the drive read speed to make my 360 games load more slowly to match the PS3's too.

Wanna place a wager that nearly all PS3 games have faster load times then the respective 360 games if they are ports and have faster load times in general?

[Guy Mariano]

Perfect Dark Zero sucked but going by graphics the game didn't end up looking like this screen. Thus games can improve alot by launch.

5/18/2005

http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/616/616696/perfect-dark-zero-20050518075210520.jpg

[lost]

Exactly, and those videos look significantly better than that screen there.

Same time frame to improve, same rate of improvement and what you've got are truly next gen graphics.

And no I'm not saying the 360 can't achieve truly next gen graphics. Look at the current crop of games for it, bet you 360 owners are hoping things get better than mid-range PC graphical standards.

[Kamalot]

Wanna place a wager that nearly all PS3 games have faster load times then the respective 360 games if they are ports and have faster load times in general?
Yeah. That's a wager I'll take.

[Kamalot]

Remember the N64? Besides Mario, ALL of the games on the floor sucked.

Personally, I think the N64 was almost a complete waste. Aside from mario 64, and Mario kart, I can't think of anything else worth owning an N64 for.

[lost]

At the time Banko-Kazooie, Goldeneye and...yeah ok I kinda see your point.

EDIT: BUT that really doesn't have anything to do with the way PS3 games will be. All hes saying is that graphics are constantly iterated over a projects lifespan.

[Kamalot]

Perfect Dark Zero sucked but going by graphics the game didn't end up looking like this screen. Thus games can improve alot by launch.

5/18/2005

http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/616/616696/perfect-dark-zero-20050518075210520.jpg

Comparing a game to Perfect Dark Zero isn't a good idea. PDZ sucked so hard that, were I a developer, I'd be embarassed to have my game mentioned in the same thread. :eek:

[Guy Mariano]

Comparing a game to Perfect Dark Zero isn't a good idea. PDZ sucked so hard that, were I a developer, I'd be embarassed to have my game mentioned in the same thread. :eek:

Thus the reason I stated Perect Dark Zero sucked ;) All i'm saying is grpahics can improve and likely will once final dev kits are out.

[Kamalot]

Thus the reason I stated Perect Dark Zero sucked ;) All i'm saying is grpahics can improve and likely will once final dev kits are out.
The graphics STILL suck in Perfect Dark Zero! :D

[Guy Mariano]

The graphics STILL suck in Perfect Dark Zero! :D


Character models and art direction sucked. The graphics didn't suck unless of course 90% of the reviews were wrong by rating them good to great :D

[Siraris]

Damn! You are so right! The 360 would cost more than the PS3 if I added a bunch of stuff nobody cares about and mystic promises from Sony. I'd also have to slow down the drive read speed to make my 360 games load more slowly to match the PS3's too. Oh! I'd have to get rid of the rumble in the controller, you know...the one that lets you know you are pushing too far in Rockstar Table Tennis or that you are loosing traction in racing games. Gotta add Bluetooth cause, well, cause it's a fancy buzzword. I'll have to add more advertisements to Live as well and have my console break down more often than a fanboy's logic argument.

Seriously, I love watching Sony people flail about looking to justify the enormous price tag; attempting to create value statements that no sensible gamer is interested in.

I wonder how long we'll be privy to such comedic gold.

You know, I don't like to flame individuals, it really serves no purpose, but you just open yourself up to it with this post. Do you really think that no one cares about the features that PS3 offers? I think you're very wrong in that statement. If no one cared about the features that Sony was putting in the PS3, they wouldn't put them in there. I really dont' see what Sony is putting in that no one would care about either, aside from the memory card slot. Blu-Ray, a lot of people care about this, and if no one cared about it, why is Microsoft releasing an add-on HD-DVD drive? Does that mean the 360 has stuff that no one wants too?! An extremely powerful graphics card and processor, I think people care about that too since it allows developers to draw more power out of the system.

I'd also like to know why the PS3's 2x Blu-Ray drive is slower than the 360's DVD drive. A 2x Blu-Ray drive is the equivelant of a 12x DVD drive, which is more than you'd ever need for reading data from a disc. You don't need any more than a 2x read speed for optical data. A 2x Blu-Ray drive also transfers at 72Mbps and has a larger numerical aperature, which means that it requires less power and lower rotational speed to achieve the same data speeds of DVD and HD-DVD drives.

I don't understand the last part of your argument. Bluetooth isn't a buzzword, it's an extremely well adopted powerful wireless technology. Since Sony is using Bluetooth 2.0 EDR which will allow you to connect ANY bluetooth device to your PS3 (Keyboard, mouse, headset) from ANY manufacturer, not just Sony.

If you want to make an argument, try and make sense. Just making non-sensical ramblings about irrelevant nonsense doesn't get you anywhere, and it makes you look immature.

[Kamalot]

I'd also like to know why the PS3's 2x Blu-Ray drive is slower than the 360's DVD drive. A 2x Blu-Ray drive is the equivelant of a 12x DVD drive, which is more than you'd ever need for reading data from a disc. You don't need any more than a 2x read speed for optical data. A 2x Blu-Ray drive also transfers at 72Mbps and has a larger numerical aperature, which means that it requires less power and lower rotational speed to achieve the same data speeds of DVD and HD-DVD drives.
Let me tell you a little something, you can never have enough throughput from your optical drive to the rest of the system. In order to load games faster, you'll want the read speed of the optical drive to be as fast as possible. The PS3 in this regard, does not give you, "more than you'd ever need."

Bluray is a detriment to gaming. It helps Sony corner the HD video disc market, but it does not help gamers in the slightest.

I don't understand the last part of your argument. Bluetooth isn't a buzzword, it's an extremely well adopted powerful wireless technology. Since Sony is using Bluetooth 2.0 EDR which will allow you to connect ANY bluetooth device to your PS3 (Keyboard, mouse, headset) from ANY manufacturer, not just Sony.

I'd like to see more information about being able to hook up Bluetooth devices to the PS3. If you can truly hook up a Bluetooth keyboard, mouse and headset to the PS3, I'll retract my Bluetooth remarks.

Just because the PS3 uses a Bluetooth system for connecting controllers does not mean it is open to working with other Bluetooth devices. If it is closed, it may as well be Wavebirds.

Someone told me Wii also uses Bluetooth for wireless connections to the controllers. Can anyone confirm this?

[Kamalot]

In fact, here's a little graph created by GameSpot (http://www.gamespot.com/pages/profile/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=23916169&user=skektek). It shows that a 2x Bluray drive is as fast as the MINIMUM read speed of a 12X DVD. The 12x DVD also can get faster, pulling more data off of the disc into system memory than the PS3 will ever be able to do.

http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/5399/12xdvdvsbdrs0cg.png

What good if 50 gigs of data on a Bluray disc if it is slower to load?

Oh, and Siraris, 72Mbps = 9MBps.

[Siraris]

Let me tell you a little something, you can never have enough throughput from your optical drive to the rest of the system. In order to load games faster, you'll want the read speed of the optical drive to be as fast as possible. The PS3 in this regard, does not give you, "more than you'd ever need."

Bluray is a detriment to gaming. It helps Sony corner the HD video disc market, but it does not help gamers in the slightest.



I'd like to see more information about being able to hook up Bluetooth devices to the PS3. If you can truly hook up a Bluetooth keyboard, mouse and headset to the PS3, I'll retract my Bluetooth remarks.

Just because the PS3 uses a Bluetooth system for connecting controllers does not mean it is open to working with other Bluetooth devices. If it is closed, it may as well be Wavebirds.

Someone told me Wii also uses Bluetooth for wireless connections to the controllers. Can anyone confirm this?


First of all, you're crazy for thinking that Blu-Ray will not be extremely important to gamers. Not only are gamers more likely to be interested in watching Hi-Def movies, but Blu-Ray has many benifits. Developers will only have to press one disc with mutliple translations of games, which cuts down on their costs and will allow for easier distribution. Developers will not need to worry about the size of their media allowing them to put as high-res textures or movies on the discs as they want, and not worry about adding extra content for fear of filling up the disc.

Second of all, I don't think faster than 2X Blu-Ray read is necessary. You have to remember that DVD's are constant angular velocity (meaning they read slower on the inside tracks and then faster on the outside) where blu-ray is CLV (Constant linear velocity) meaning they read constant inside and out. So if a DVD player reads at 12x, that's its maximum, and only on the outside tracks. You can draw conclusions from there. You also have a HDD standard in the PS3, which means developers will be streaming content onto the HDD which will reduce load times substantially. Furthermore, if you look at the PS2, games like God of War and Ico streamed all their data off the disc making load times almost unnoticeable. I'm sure developers will incorporate this into the PS3 as well.

If you want to go searching, there are a couple of articles in which Sony execs state that you will be able to hook up bluetooth devices, I believe Gamaustra and IGN have them. Since Sony is using Bluetooth 2.0 EDR, it's almost guaranteed.

[Pumped'Up]

So in conclusion, the high price-tag is for the Blu-Ray drive, which I don't think most of us give a shit about when it comes to dishing out the cash.

I wouldn't pay $600 to 'give it a chance'. Only $250 for the Wii, and that oozes large amounts of fuckin-fun gameplay.
eh Adam, "don't think"?? Nah, just you. Anyways, quit penny-pinching over $600 - you obviously can't afford this luxury.

So you're going to give Nintendo $250 for a repackaged GameCube that supports emulators eh? yep worth every dime.

[Nessus]

I really don't give a shit about Blu-Ray or HD-DVD.

1. The HD televisions I've seen haven't been that impressive. In fact I'm decidedly unimpressed by the super high contrast of most HD sets that sucks all of the lower end of the spectrum into black. Seriously, I don't get how they can actually be using that as a selling point. Yeah, the higher resolution's nice, but not $2000 nice.

2. DVD is fine for me. Hell, I'm still okay with fuckin' VHS. Admittedly, I'm not much of a picture quality fanatic. Personally I'd like to see DVD stick around for a bit. Yes, VHS had an artificially long life, but DVD doesn't need to be replaced just yet.

3. I don't want to pay $200 extra so Sony can try to leverage that stupid format. I like that MS has made HD-DVD seperate from the 360 so I don't have to spend money on a stupid feature I'll never use.

4. And last, after spending all that money there's a pretty good chance that PS3 is going to die on me, given my experience with the PlayStation, PS2 and nearly every other Sony product I've bought with the exception of a high end CD Walkman.

I think it is fair to judge PS3 games on their graphics when that is supposed to be their selling point. These games should look a hundred dollars better than 360 games and so far they don't.

[Pumped'Up]

I think it is fair to judge PS3 games on their graphics when that is supposed to be their selling point. These games should look a hundred dollars better than 360 games and so far they don't.
Let me know when ANY video card out there that is $100 more than another looks $100 better. Yep, you wont because for $100, you're getting higher frames, not better graphics.

Don't bite your tongue yet youngster, PS3 games will support 1080p (unlike the inferior 360). 1 title at this resolution (i.e. GT5) is worth well over the $100...but then again for you, what's the point - you don't even like HD TVs.

[pomeroy]

1080p...Oh boy. Maybe by the time the PS3 is putting out games at that resolution, there'll be TVs that can support the resolution natively.

You know...I don't even hate Sony. Really don't. I'm really enjoying the PS2 I picked up recently (Guitar Hero rocks), but Pumped...do you really believe that one title, regardless of resolution, is worth $600?

[Nessus]

Don't bite your tongue yet youngster, PS3 games will support 1080p (unlike the inferior 360). 1 title at this resolution (i.e. GT5) is worth well over the $100...but then again for you, what's the point - you don't even like HD TVs.

Which is part of the problem. Honestly, prior to E3 I was really torn as to whether I was going to get a 360 or PS3. Sony chose for me by announcing that price and by betting everything on their precious Blu Ray.

I'll be using a standard definition set for the foreseeable future and 360 already has some nice games in the pipeline. Metal Gear Solid and Final Fantasy just aren't my thing, so far PS3 has no exclusives that interest me.

I'd like to get an HDTV eventually, and use it as a huge computer monitor/part of an entertainment center, but I simply can't justify spending as much money on a TV set as I would a used car, especially when I'd have to pay even more to get actual decoder/HD channels.

[lost]

I spy people who believe in Sony actually standing up and making good arguements. Bravo.

In my opinion what Sony is providing is a future proofed console. For the next 4-5 years if you've got a PS3 your not going to need much else in the home entertainment department. 360 is a console of the time but then so was the Dreamcast.

It was my 18th last night, I'm still slightly drunk and in this state "Dreamcast" sounds like the most fucking amazing name ever. Sega should have kicked ass based on the name alone.

Man....I totally want a Dreamcast now....Dreeaaamcast.

[divinechaos]

Im so glad i still have a DC..in fact, i'll play some when i get home.

On topic: That gundam vid looked and played like complete SHIT, not to mention that GTHD. UGH, Seriously, if ur gonna price a system at $600 at least show us that its worth it. Im in the crowd that could care less about BluRay or 1080p.

I know these are "first gen" PoS3 games, but they dont look much different from what i've seen in the 360. I have even read dev interviews where they clearly state that there isnt much graphical difference between the two.

I know Sony will have some awesome games in the future, but as of now, nothing they have showed has blown my mind to the point where i would buy a PoS3 instead of a Rev AND a 360.

[TrackZero]

Im so glad i still have a DC..in fact, i'll play some when i get home.

Agreed. I missed the DC when it was out (only played it at friends), but going back and getting it from lik-sang later with a bunch of titles was totally worth it. What a fantastic machine.

[Kamalot]

Dreamcast FTW!

Anyone wanna see my Dreamcast tattoo? ;-)

[Kamalot]

In my opinion what Sony is providing is a future proofed console. For the next 4-5 years if you've got a PS3 your not going to need much else in the home entertainment department. 360 is a console of the time but then so was the Dreamcast.
Ask yourself this...

Would you want the PS2 to have been the only thing in your entertainment center for 4-5 years? Is the PS2's DVD player good enough for you? Would your PS2 last 4-5 years of daily use?

Now take a step back and realize that DVD was already established in the marketplace before PS2 was launched. Bluray is much more of a gamble. Just because you are getting a cheaper bluray player with the PS3 does not mean it will be the disc format that is adopted by the masses. It could end up being a LaserDisc player or Betamax.

[Chameleo]

i smell people who work for sony or one of their subsidieries.

i do not have an HDTV - and i dont think enough people do to make HD such a big selling point for sony.

There are people out there who still have 56k modems..... let alone an HDTV. I know many people who still have VHS collections.

I think the PS3 is an "early adopter" product, and will find a small market share in USA.

Though in Japan - people don't know shit about shit and will just buy it for the brand name. Honesly, more than half the population here are just sheep baa-ing to their corporate overlords.

HDTV is pretty popular here too, though everyone I know who's bought one has bought the cheapest version of one they could find. i.e. a daewoo or something. which leads me to believe that maybe the japanese market is becomming a little more price conscious than they used to be.

[Xerxes]

Though in Japan - people don't know shit about shit and will just buy it for the brand name. Honesly, more than half the population here are just sheep baa-ing to their corporate overlords.


This statement is interesting to me. Since Xbox came out and watching is cold (not even lukewarm) reception. I have labeled their gaming community as such. There seem to be few that will follow the likes of Tecmo and few other titles but not much more. I don't know if it's about following Sony however as it is following there development taste. Nobody can make Japanese games for Japanese gamers like Japanese developers. Same could be said for Americans couldn't it? Before they made games on pc and whatever console japan sent to america. Namely Nintendo and Sega at the start. Then comes along MS bringing FPSs, non-JRPGs and sports and otehr american friendly genres.

Hell Toshiba is probably right down the street from sony.

[Zechs01]

Genji 2,
Heavenly Sword,
Resistance:Fall of Man,
Sonic,
Wardevil,
And Warhawk.
All of the one mentioned above looked very good and are worth paying $599 to get a PS3 to play them IMO.

[Jack B]

Yeah? I must download that one then. I saw the Warhawk one, and while it looked quite pretty, I don't see anything to justify that crazy price-tag. I expect the Wii should be able to do something that looks almost as good, y'know? (Yeah, I know it won't be as good as that.. but, honestly, it'll look similar enough that who's gonna care?)

Wasn't Warhawk the one that was retrofitted recently to use the Shake part of the dual-shake controller? If it was then I'm worried. They couldn't hit a thing on that demo. :)

The Wii is 480p. I didn't go to E3, but heard many podcasts, read reviews etc, and the Wii looks very similar to the previous gen graphics.

The Wii has a lot going for it, but in the area of graphics it will get smoked by the PS3 and 360. If you have an HDTV, the differences are huge. If you don't then you can certainly tell, but it's less for sure.

[Jack B]

This statement is interesting to me. Since Xbox came out and watching is cold (not even lukewarm) reception. I have labeled their gaming community as such. There seem to be few that will follow the likes of Tecmo and few other titles but not much more. I don't know if it's about following Sony however as it is following there development taste. Nobody can make Japanese games for Japanese gamers like Japanese developers. Same could be said for Americans couldn't it? Before they made games on pc and whatever console japan sent to america. Namely Nintendo and Sega at the start. Then comes along MS bringing FPSs, non-JRPGs and sports and otehr american friendly genres.

Hell Toshiba is probably right down the street from sony.

Xerxes, I agree. Japan has a ton of Japanese developers, with fan bases for titles than never reach North America or Europe. That's likely the biggest reason the 360 has a much better chance of dethroning the PS3 in NA and Europe.

I'd say it's quantity of exclusive titles, the Japanese taste in games is a bit different and a bit of nationalism all combined to make it tougher for the 360 to make inroads.

I play against Japanese players on 360 (lately I see more on Moto GP online), but imagine if the 360 had another 100 titles of NA/Europe exclusives compared to Sony....

Many likely see the 360 as a good system, but just lacking in Japanese exclusive titles compared to the PS3/PS2 etc.

The 360 will make inroads in Japan, but it still has a long way to go. This Gen, I believe the Japanese console market was about 29% of the worldwide total, which is a very high percentage compared to their population.

[Siraris]

Ask yourself this...

Would you want the PS2 to have been the only thing in your entertainment center for 4-5 years? Is the PS2's DVD player good enough for you? Would your PS2 last 4-5 years of daily use?

Now take a step back and realize that DVD was already established in the marketplace before PS2 was launched. Bluray is much more of a gamble. Just because you are getting a cheaper bluray player with the PS3 does not mean it will be the disc format that is adopted by the masses. It could end up being a LaserDisc player or Betamax.

Do you know when DVDs started to outsell VHS?

2005.

[Jack B]

Not to bash the PS3, but I think that the games shown look a lot more impressive than any of the 360 launch titles.

Siraris,

I agree with about 1/2 of your comments. This one point I find interesting and assume you'll have a well thought out response.

The PS3 was supposed to have already launched in the Spring of 2006. Sony said it didn't launch, because of a delay blamed on Blu-Ray....

So, I ask you this. Many of those games should be done by now, just waiting to be burned to Blu-Ray and shipped, but they aren't done. In fact, it appeared, that Resistance Fall of Man was about the farthest along. Not done, but certainly it will be a launch title.

Why are these games so late? They shouldn't be compared to launch games of the 360. They've had nearly as much time to complete as Gears or War, Mass Effect etc. The delay of the Sony launch should have given Sony developers another 6 months, but not a single game at E3 seemed ready to go...
The PS3 launch shouldn't be 15 games. It should be like 45 games. Personally, I believe Sony will have some excellent games in the future and will utilize the extra storage of the Blu-Ray for some percentage of titles (mostly RPG or Sandbox), but it appears to me developing for the PS3 is slower than the 360 and likely more costly.

What's your take on why PS3 titles aren't farther along?

[Kamalot]

Do you know when DVDs started to outsell VHS?

2005.
Your argument is telling...

How long will it be before HD-DVD or Bluray starts outselling DVD? Will either of them survive or will people keep buying DVDs? Why jump on an expensive bandwagon now when it isn't a sure thing? Will people skip the HD-DVD / Bluray generation and hop on the holographic discs coming in a few years? There have been many formats that have failed, leaving people with expensive LaserDisc BetaMax and HD-VHS players. A good number of failed formats are Sony's. They have a downright poor track record of creating mainstream formats. Why bet on a horse that rarely (if ever) finishes in 1st place?

[Jack B]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamalot

Now take a step back and realize that DVD was already established in the marketplace before PS2 was launched. Bluray is much more of a gamble. Just because you are getting a cheaper bluray player with the PS3 does not mean it will be the disc format that is adopted by the masses. It could end up being a LaserDisc player or Betamax.

Do you know when DVDs started to outsell VHS?

2005.

Siraris,

While, I'm not sure when DVD passed VHS, that really wasn't Kamalot's point. I think that was a bit of a low blow. I am curious, are you saying that VHS outsold DVD's in 2004??? That's amazing. Facts please if you have them.

Anyway, back to the point.... DVD came out 3 1/2 years "prior" to the PS2 launch and was "more" established than Blu-Ray is today and much much more likely to win the format war at that point.

I wouldn't be celebrating Blu-Ray's victory just yet.

[Kamalot]

Siraris,

I agree with about 1/2 of your comments. This one point I find interesting and assume you'll have a well thought out response.

The PS3 was supposed to have already launched in the Spring of 2006. Sony said it didn't launch, because of a delay blamed on Blu-Ray....

So, I ask you this. Many of those games should be done by now, just waiting to be burned to Blu-Ray and shipped, but they aren't done. In fact, it appeared, that Resistance Fall of Man was about the farthest along. Not done, but certainly it will be a launch title.

Why are these games so late? They shouldn't be compared to launch games of the 360. They've had nearly as much time to complete as Gears or War, Mass Effect etc. The delay of the Sony launch should have given Sony developers another 6 months, but not a single game at E3 seemed ready to go...
The PS3 launch shouldn't be 15 games. It should be like 45 games. Personally, I believe Sony will have some excellent games in the future and will utilize the extra storage of the Blu-Ray for some percentage of titles (mostly RPG or Sandbox), but it appears to me developing for the PS3 is slower than the 360 and likely more costly.

What's your take on why PS3 titles aren't farther along?
Jack:

You bring up some good points for consideration. My skeptical nature of Sony is due to them lying so many times in the past. As such, I'm inclined to believe that the PS3 was never ready to launch in Spring. Since Spring, Sony has increased the size of the console to fit components inside, added more vent holes, etc.

I am willing to wager that the PS3 has had some serious issues with fitting the components in the space and heat dissipation.

On the subject of games, the titles shown at E3 SHOULD look like Gears of War or Mass Effect. The only one that really looked next-gen was Metal Gear Solid. Perhaps developers are having a hard time with programming for the Cell? Perhaps the dev kits were not an accurate representation of the final hardware?

There could be any number of dire yet logical reasons, but delaying the console from Spring was not due to Blueray DRM issues as Sony stated. Anyone who denies that is either lying or a blind fanboy.

[Jack B]

Jack:

You bring up some good points for consideration. My skeptical nature of Sony is due to them lying so many times in the past. As such, I'm inclined to believe that the PS3 was never ready to launch in Spring. Since Spring, Sony has increased the size of the console to fit components inside, added more vent holes, etc.

I am willing to wager that the PS3 has had some serious issues with fitting the components in the space and heat dissipation.

On the subject of games, the titles shown at E3 SHOULD look like Gears of War or Mass Effect. The only one that really looked next-gen was Metal Gear Solid. Perhaps developers are having a hard time with programming for the Cell? Perhaps the dev kits were not an accurate representation of the final hardware?

There could be any number of dire yet logical reasons, but delaying the console from Spring was not due to Blueray DRM issues as Sony stated. Anyone who denies that is either lying or a blind fanboy.

Kamalot,

Yep, my take exactly.

The 9 processor, asymmetrical Cell processor is likely more difficult to develop games for... And Sony probably lied about the delay being the Blu-Ray's fault, IMO.

If the Blu-Ray drive had have been ready, there would have been about 1 launch title this Spring. Eye of the Beholder with rumble! :D
Sony has been doing the smoke and mirrors thing for so long on so many issues, I can barely keep up.

[Kamalot]

Kamalot,

Yep, my sentiments exactly.

The 9 processor, asymetrical Cell processor is likely more difficult to design for and IMO Sony probably lied about the delay being the Blu-Ray's fault.

If the Blu-Ray drive had have been ready, they would have had about 1 launch title this Spring. Eye of the Beholder with rumble! :D
Sony has been doing the smoke and mirrors thing for so long on so many issues, I can barely keep up.

Well, it is down to 7 SPE processors in each cell. 1 of which is always dedicated to the OS. Another one is always 'on call' for the OS. This brings the number of SPEs that are always available to developers down to only 5, a far cry from the original promise of 8.

[Jack B]

Well, it is down to 7 SPE processors in each cell. 1 of which is always dedicated to the OS. Another one is always 'on call' for the OS. This brings the number of SPEs that are always available to developers down to only 5, a far cry from the original promise of 8.

Thanks. Hard to keep up with the changes.

[Siraris]

Thanks. Hard to keep up with the changes.

I'll just reply all in here.

Further references:

DVD Software Purchases Increased 2.4 Times to $4.6 Billion, Putting
DVD Sales Ahead of VHS for the First Time (January 8, 2003)
http://www.recordingmedia.org/news/rmonews.html

Sorry I was off by a year, shoot me.

As for Kamalots statements, he again is so far off. How can you expect that games that have not even been rendered using final development kids would look better than games that have been in development for years? Gears of War is a second generation 360 game, and you think that beta versions of PS3 games should look better than final versions of games that developers have had much longer to work on? Some developers have had PS3 hardware for only a couple of months. Considering Warhawk is only 20% complete, and there is still a lot of time for multiple coats of polish and optomisations that can be done on the hardware, I think Warhawk was damn impressive.

Jack - Why would you want 45 games for PS3 at launch? Every developer would go out of business. If people are buying a PS3, they will buy a couple games. Instead of a few games making a lot of sales, you'd have a lot of games making a lot less sales, which would spread the market too thin and hurt the industry a LOT. You stagger out releases of games so that customers can digest what they have and then buy more as they come.

As for your Blu-Ray argument, how is Sony forcing anything onto anybody? Just because it has a Blu-Ray drive, doesn't mean they are forcing people to buy Blu-Ray. They made a smart business move and are furthering their interests. Doesn't Apple do that by "forcing" customers to use OS X? Doesn't Ford do that by "forcing" customers to use a Ford engine? Doesn't Nintendo "force" users to adopt cartridges and mini-DVD's, instead of using DVD's or CD's?

If you don't want to use Blu-Ray for movies, don't do it, buy HD-DVD. Sony isn't saying because you buy a Blu-Ray player you have to own Blu-Ray movies, you just have to use Blu-Ray to play the games for the system, which is fine by me if it means developers can fit more content on the discs and there can also be multiple translations put on one disc.

[Kamalot]

I'll just reply all in here.

Further references:

DVD Software Purchases Increased 2.4 Times to $4.6 Billion, Putting
DVD Sales Ahead of VHS for the First Time (January 8, 2003)
http://www.recordingmedia.org/news/rmonews.html

Sorry I was off by a year, shoot me.

As for Kamalots statements, he again is so far off. How can you expect that games that have not even been rendered using final development kids would look better than games that have been in development for years? Gears of War is a second generation 360 game, and you think that beta versions of PS3 games should look better than final versions of games that developers have had much longer to work on? Some developers have had PS3 hardware for only a couple of months. Considering Warhawk is only 20% complete, and there is still a lot of time for multiple coats of polish and optomisations that can be done on the hardware, I think Warhawk was damn impressive.

Jack - Why would you want 45 games for PS3 at launch? Every developer would go out of business. If people are buying a PS3, they will buy a couple games. Instead of a few games making a lot of sales, you'd have a lot of games making a lot less sales, which would spread the market too thin and hurt the industry a LOT. You stagger out releases of games so that customers can digest what they have and then buy more as they come.

As for your Blu-Ray argument, how is Sony forcing anything onto anybody? Just because it has a Blu-Ray drive, doesn't mean they are forcing people to buy Blu-Ray. They made a smart business move and are furthering their interests. Doesn't Apple do that by "forcing" customers to use OS X? Doesn't Ford do that by "forcing" customers to use a Ford engine? Doesn't Nintendo "force" users to adopt cartridges and mini-DVD's, instead of using DVD's or CD's?

If you don't want to use Blu-Ray for movies, don't do it, buy HD-DVD. Sony isn't saying because you buy a Blu-Ray player you have to own Blu-Ray movies, you just have to use Blu-Ray to play the games for the system, which is fine by me if it means developers can fit more content on the discs and there can also be multiple translations put on one disc.
There's so much off here, I don't know if this is worthwhile, but here I go...

Your DVD sales numbers only illustrate that it takes a LONG time for a new format to become mainstream. Most never do it. Why jump the gun on something that is such an unknown factor at this point.

According to Sony, the PS3 was scheduled to launch in the Spring. Spring is officially over where I am, how about you? The reason cited for the delay is due to Blueray digital rights management (DRM) issues. IF this is true, then the PS3 should have many, many games available. If the system was to launch in spring, dev kits should have been finalized months ago and developers would be pissed that they are sitting around on unfinished games, not making any money off of them.

Instead, what we saw at E3 was that games aren’t anywhere near being complete. Most are an unfinished mess. Every day we get more and more PS3 screen shots that don’t look like they are ready to launch, for a console that isn’t coming out for half-a-year after its slated launch time frame.

Nobody is saying that we WANT 45 games available for the PS3 at launch, it is just that games should already be complete if the system was scheduled to launch in Spring.

Sony IS forcing people to buy Bluray. Even if you don’t ever buy a Bluray movie, Sony is burning every PS3 game onto a Bluray disc. The manufacturing process for burning Bluray discs is notably more expensive than regular DVDs; entire factories need to be converted to more expensive equipment. Who foots the bill for this cost?

Even if you never buy a Bluray movie, Sony uses you, the gamer, as a crowbar in the movie industry. They will cite the number of PS3s sold as a reason for the movie industry to adopt Bluray as the standard. This is a false pretence since most PS3 owners will have purchased the system to play games, not to watch films. This means that the movie industry will be lied to about Bluray penetration. Citing numbers for dedicated movie players is valid, citing numbers for PS3 ownership is not.

And for your other comparisons, Apple does ‘force’ you to buy OSX when you buy a computer, but you can put whatever OS you want on there once you get it home, provided you can get it to run. In fact, they now allow you to boot Windows on your Mac.

Nintendo does use proprietary media for its consoles, but it isn’t using that fact to try and take over other industries. It also is selecting the format of media for a balance of cost, utility and efficiency. If Nintendo chose a wildly different format that was detrimental to gamers, such as being more expensive and having slower read times, I’d lambaste them for that as well. In fact, Nintendo made a move not dissimilar to Sony’s with the N64. Cartridges were more expensive to produce but had faster read access at the expense of storage space. The difference today is that regular DVDs will, with rare exceptions, be more than enough for game developers and offer faster read speed than Bluray at a fraction of the cost for developers and consumers.

Whew, that’s a mouthful...so…Flame On!

[Kamalot]

Oh, and as for putting multiple translations on one disc...

Most localization is done MONTHS after the original is complete and shipping in the native country. Localization (the translation of a game) isn't an easy process. When it is complete, the game may have already sold a million copies.

It also makes sense to develop languages separately. Imagine you are creating a product for PS3. That's gonna be really expensive. If your product is in Japanese first, you wanna sell it there right away to start raking in the cash. If your product tanks in Japan, well then it probably isn't worth your time to have it localized. If it does well, then some of your earnings can go into the localization process.

Just because the disc can hold more space does not mean that we can magically play all games in Esperanto.

[Jack B]

DVD Software Purchases Increased 2.4 Times to $4.6 Billion, Putting
DVD Sales Ahead of VHS for the First Time (January 8, 2003)
http://www.recordingmedia.org/news/rmonews.html

Sorry I was off by a year, shoot me.

Siraris, thanks for looking that up. That is amazing. I haven't bought a VHS tape in forever.

I'd agree with Kamalot's statement that given Blu-Ray is even out yet, the format war is a long ways from being decided.

Since DVD's were launched in 1997, it took them 6 years just to over take VHS. 6 years from now would likely be 1 year into the Next Next Gen. debatebly a better time to include Blu-Ray, HD-DVD or some other format into a gaming console. IMO

How can you expect that games that have not even been rendered using final development kids would look better than games that have been in development for years? Gears of War is a second generation 360 game, and you think that beta versions of PS3 games should look better than final versions of games that developers have had much longer to work on? Some developers have had PS3 hardware for only a couple of months. Considering Warhawk is only 20% complete, and there is still a lot of time for multiple coats of polish and optomisations that can be done on the hardware, I think Warhawk was damn impressive.

Umm, we both already explained that previously.... The PS3 was delayed by 6 months, because of Blu-Ray, not dev kits etc. Sony said that, we didn't. Sony developers should be 6 months behind the 360 developers. E3 was six months after the 360 launch.

Six months ago Microsoft shipped 18 games plus arcade and 360 Live. Sony developers should be sitting on their hands right now ready to go waiting for the Blu-Ray drives. That's it.... Just waiting for the Blu-Ray drives...., but that's not happening.

They are way behind, scrambling to even have playable demos at E3... And many of them have worked on multiple core processors now with their 360 experience, so I'd guess some (certainly not all) of that knowledge might help a bit in PS3 development.

They should have been ready for launch in the Spring. By E3, they should have had games much further along, if not done.

I believe the PS3 is harder to develop for and that Sony lied about the delay being a Blu-Ray issue. Blu-Ray wasn't the issue.

Explain to me which games would have launched in the Spring of 2006 if the Blu-Ray drives didn't cause the 6 month delay?

Remember you don't need Blu-Ray on a dev kit, so that Blu-Ray delay should have had no effect what so ever on the PS3 developers. The games should have been shipable by now, but we all saw the lack of playable demos at E3, let alone games that could have gone gold and shipped...

Right now there is a lot of smoke and mirrors that can be used to confuse people. Sony's good at it and many people eat it up. If the PS3 is much more difficult to develop for than the 360, we'll see delays in launches of PS3 titles at launch and beyond. If that's not the case we won't. Time will tell, but it sure looks to me, that something is amiss.

Jack - Why would you want 45 games for PS3 at launch? Every developer would go out of business.

I can't agree with this at all.

If you've followed the market, 360 owners are not complaining about too many games to choose from. Right now, 6 months after launch there are 58 games available for the 360. None of those companies are in danger of bankruptcy due to 360 titles.

Many are having extremely good sales results, "because of 360 games...". It would likely be no different with the PS3. It will sell out and owners will have a very high attach rate.

I can guarantee you Kutaragi, Harrison and Kaz are not sitting around, going "Crap what if we have 45 games at launch, that would be terrible...".

They are busting their ass to get PS3 games out at launch. Personally, I believe they needed to have an excuse to delay the launch, because they knew they'd never have games ready in time.

They need as many games on day one as possible for a successful launch. If you think it's a hand picked list, just wait to you see some of the dogs that always accompany a launch and you'll quickly realize no one in their right mind would "pick" xyz game. My vote might go to Genji II, but I'll reserve judgement until launch, but every launch has them.

The 360 had Tony Hawk, Gun and NBA Live. It will happen, although Sony has one edge in that we are farther away from the ports. We're seeing fewer and fewer PS2/Xbox/360 titles as companies start to do dedicated Next Gen titles.

Sony should have mostly PS3 only or PS3/360 titles for their launch. Their problem is going to be will they have enough titles for a solid launch even with the extra 6 months of development time...

If people are buying a PS3, they will buy a couple games. Instead of a few games making a lot of sales, you'd have a lot of games making a lot less sales, which would spread the market too thin and hurt the industry a LOT. You stagger out releases of games so that customers can digest what they have and then buy more as they come.

Can't agree. See comments above about launch titles.

As for your Blu-Ray argument, how is Sony forcing anything onto anybody?

OK, I can't agree with this comment at all.

That horse has been beaten to death. The PS3 is Sony's "great white hope" (boxing analogy) to win the format war against HD-DVD and digital movie distribution. They've included it to give them an edge in the format war. Sure it has some advantage, but overwhelmingly it has been hammered by gamers and the press as a "nice to have", but not a mandatory requirment forced upon PS3 owners.

If Blu-Ray doesn't win, this could be a big albatross for Sony and PS3 owners. Remember Betamax and UMD among many other failed formats. Format wars are bloody sometimes and often they take a long time (see your comments on 9 years just for DVD to pass VHS) and don't even produce a winner at all. See laserdisc and DVI before DVD...

Blu-Ray is a real gamble. The war is not over yet.

[divinechaos]

Genji 2,
Heavenly Sword,
Resistance:Fall of Man,
Sonic,
Wardevil,
And Warhawk.
All of the one mentioned above looked very good and are worth paying $599 to get a PS3 to play them IMO.


How come i cant find the sarcasm icon!? Or mayb my internet lingo is outdated?

[Jack B]

Genji 2,
Heavenly Sword,
Resistance:Fall of Man,
Sonic,
Wardevil,
And Warhawk.
All of the one mentioned above looked very good and are worth paying $599 to get a PS3 to play them IMO.

Zechs01,

Genji 2 on your "hot titles" list...???

Conspiracy theory warning:

I believe Genji 2 was shown at E3, because something crashed just prior to the Sony press conference. It should have started on time, like the Microsoft and Nintendo conferences.

I don't believe Sony purposely wanted to make the press stand outside for an extra 45 minutes. I also think that's why we saw 10 minutes of Grand Turismo. They were filling time. That's just a theory, but it could be true...

Anyway, GENJI 2? Robobitic History Crabs? Yikes! :D

Heavenly Sword - That could be excellent, although no one saw anything, but the arena. And little of the plot was known. Having said that, it looks like it could be a winner. We'll see.

Resistance:Fall of Man - This one looks solid, from a solid developer Insomniac. I don't think it's a killer app, but it's solid. I think timing is an issue here. It's different from Gears of War, but similar. They are both FPS's with monsters. Microsoft could be licking their chops if these 2 go head to head on Emergence Day/Launch Day.

It's a bit early to tell, but Gears of War lead the Gamecritics Awards (37 game review pubs consensus) at E3 with 5 nominations, one of which was Game of E3. I think it's either bad luck for Sony, that they both have monsters or Microsoft was thinking way ahead.

It ain't over 'til it's over however, and Resistance does look good.

Sonic - Heard a lot of negatives from a lot of podcasts on this one for the 360. PS3 should be the same. I think they just missed the mark.

Wardevil - Have no idea.

And Warhawk - People had good things to say about Warhawk. The motion sensing seemed to work well for those who tried it and it was a lot easier than the guy at the Sony press conference made it look. :D

And the original Warhawk was beloved by many.

[Zechs01]

well from what i saw of the videos they looked good but it was like lagging or i was getting bad frame rates idk what the videos didnt run smoothly but i think they looked good but the mobile suit gundam one didnt look to great

[Siraris]

My heads spinning a bit as you both seem to be missing my point and aren't making much sense in response to my arguments.

I never said that Blu-Ray would win the format war, I never said anything about Blu-Ray other than rebutting your argument about Blu-Ray being a waste of time as a format compared to DVD. I have never once said that it would outsell HD-DVD or that it would become mainstream. I don't know why you keep bringing it up.

I also do not understand why you can't understand why Sony is using Blu-Ray in the PS3. You see it as them trying to shaft the customers, but it's called a business decision. Blu-Ray is their baby, they can make a lot of money off of it, it's a very good format for watching Hi-definition DVD's, it also gives game developers a lot of room when developing their game. You make it sound like Sony is forcing your hand to buy Blu-Ray movies, and they aren't. Blu-Ray discs are around a penny more to manufacture than HD-DVD, which is nothing when you're talking about millions of units, and the cost to produce is still not proven to be more expensive. Even so, if there was no viable demand for the format, they would not produce it. There's a big difference between UMD and Blu-Ray as a comparison. UMD was an afterthought as a movie format, wheras Blu-Ray was developed with the idea in mind of being a movie format. You and I also do not know what is going on behind the scenes. We don't know how long Blu-Ray has been in development, we don't know what has been discussed by movie studios and partners of both camps, we don't even know why HD-DVD and Blu-Ray exist. Sony and Toshiba have been partners on many different projects in the past, why could they not reach an agreement on this particular issue? Do you think that all the Blu-Ray partners are out to get you as well, because they are involved as well. Is Apple, Dell, Hitachi, HP, JVC, LG, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Pioneer, Philips, Samsung, Sharp, Sony, TDK and Thomson all out to get you and make you buy Blu-Ray movies? They are all backing Blu-Ray are they all forcing your hand as well? Nobody out there has any obligation to buy anything, and so if people are really that opposed to buying Blu-Ray, they don't have to, and the format will fail. They will continue to press discs for the games, or switch to HD-DVD if that is the dominant format and that will be that. I still cannot understand why you are so paranoid about this. It's simply about making a smart business decision, and if it's not smart, they lose out.

If you want to use your argument, please use it on every other console ever released. Microsoft forced you to use X-Box only CD's, Gamecube made you use mini-DVD only DVD's, N64 made you use carts that only worked on the N64, PS2, PS1, SNES, NES, Jaguar, go back as far as you want, all of them made you buy proprietary formats. Who fronts the bill? The people who buy it, but seeing as how games for the PS3 will not be any more than games for the 360, what reason is there to complain about? You are fronting the bill for the system, which is not just a Blu-Ray player, it also has a custom CPU in it, special RAM, a HDD, all sorts of other neat technologies. While we're on the subject, why don't you rant and rave about how Microsoft is making you pay more money for a tri-core processor from IBM, instead of putting a cheap AMD or Intel processor in there that will save you money. Why don't we just beg all the console makers out there to put in the cheapest possible parts so that there's no real reason ever to upgrade our systems, no real leaps in technology!

Moving on, the statement that you can bring home a Macintosh computer and install any OS you want on is ridiculous and makes me wonder if you're just arguing for the sake of arguing instead of making viable arguments. You cannot just install Windows on a Mac, you can only install OSX. You can use virtualization software to run Windows XP due to an agreement that allows Apple to have access to Microsoft libraries. Macintosh PC's have always locked you into using only their operating system, forcing someone to make a choice; do I want to use Windows or Unix or OS (whatever) or another operating system. You have always been able to go out and buy a PC and install either Unix or Linux or BeOS or Windows or DOS, no one forced you to use any of them, Apple forced you to use their OS. The only cost that you are eating for Blu-Ray is the price of the system, which Sony believes will provide enough of a cost benifit solution to price it where they did.

You have to explain how they are trying to take over another industry. Since Sony is just one of many many partners involved in the Blu-Ray Association, how and what industry is Sony trying to take over? The movie media industry? So don't you mean that every company I listed before is trying to take over the movie media industry, not just Sony? Isn't Toshiba and Microsoft and Intel and co. trying to do the same thing, but doesn't feel that it would be benificial to include a HD-DVD drive in the X-Box 360, or perhaps the technology wasn't ready in time for when Microsoft wanted to launch the console, or else they would have included it? Lastly, can you provide me what the fraction of the cost that DVD's are saving consumers over Blu-Ray? Since it's only a matter of a penny or so, DVD's are saving people .0005%?

Moving on to Jacks post, I agree with you Jack, who knows what will come from Blu-Ray. DVD was the fastest technology ever adopted by human beings, and even that took years to become mainstream, it could take just as long with Blu-Ray. I think, though, that Sony has a lot of smart people working for them, and they all feel very strongly that Blu-Ray will succeed HD-DVD and become the dominant format. No one has said anything about adoption rates, so we'll have to see.

Stop and think; do you really believe Blu-Ray DRM caused the delay in the PS3? I highly doubt it, but I don't work for Sony, so I won't know until someone says something publicly. In my humble opinion, I believe that it was a number of things that caused the delay. I believe that there were delays in Blu-Ray in general, just like there were in HD-DVD, I believe that there were probably delays in the final design of the PS3, what it would include, etc. I believe that it takes a long time to design these machines and when you're dealing with technology as new as what the PS3 is using, it will cause delays.

Going with that argument, there is no way that Sony would have launched the PS3, and I think anyone who knows anything about how business works in todays society will tell you that there are no more secrets. I don't think one person on the planet who was in the know actually thought the PS3 would launch this spring. It was most likely done as a hype machine to take away from Microsoft's launch of the 360. How could there be a PS3 launch this spring if final dev kits didn't ship until June? This was all propogated by the internet and by Sony, and that's fine, it's their choice to do this. They made the concious decision that spreading this rumor would be a positive thing for the system, and maybe it was, we'll see. In any case, there is no reason whatsoever to see the graphical level from PS3 games that you do from current generation 360 games. The scary thing is, most of the PS3 games look better than the 360 games, and they aren't even close to completion. If you ask me, the only next-generation games that have come out for the 360 are Fight Night and PGR3. All the other games have looked pretty sub-par in terms of quality, and some of them didn't look any better than their ports for lower-end systems. In seeing videos of games from E3 that are only 20% complete for the PS3, I am blown away at the power of the system, and what developers have been able to do in such a short time. Warhawk, Resistence, 8 Days, MGS4 all looked visually superior to almost anything I've seen on the 360. Furthermore, if you compare these demos to E3's of past, it was even more impressive. Most E3's you saw pre-rendered movies, sub-par demos, nothing spectacular, while this one I was very impressed by what I saw. The PS3 was supposed to be very difficult to develop for, and yet only a few months after receiving development kits, and not even running on final development kits, developers were able to put together very impressive demo's that aren't even close to completion.

Can you give me any definitive proof that the PS3 is more difficult to develop for than the 360? I haven't heard one person say that, and from developer friends that I know in the industry, they are saying how easy and pleasant it is to develop for the PS3.

[Siraris]

(continuation)

Your too many game rebuttle fails to see my point. There may be 50 games out right now, but that's how many months after the system launched? Can you also show how well most of these games have sold? Considering barely anyone can get their hands on a console and all publishers posting losses due to slow sales of 360 games (as well as ramping up for next generation titles), I don't see why 40 games at launch would be benificial for anyone. I cant' break down exact numbers, but how many games do you think each person will buy? If they are already laying out 5-600 just on the system, that would mean they would have to lay out even more money for games and accessories. If you were to buy 2 games, that's over $100 on top of the cost of the console. Then spread that over 40 different games, and try and find me any console that has launched with near that number. Can you honestly say that NBA LIVE, Gun, and Tony Hawk are worthwhile titles to point out for launch? They were released across all platforms, and were nothing very special. Gun flopped, LIVE is LIVE and comes out for everything, and Tony Hawk came out for everything. The only games that were really worthwhile were Call of Duty and PGR3, and CoD was barely playable due to lag online. Sony will have some must have titles, and they will continue to come over the systems life, just like the 360 and the Wii.

I think that's enough. Hopefully you will understand my points. I don't know what anyones backgrounds are here, but it's important to think about these things from many angles and not just from a consumer standpoint, or more importantly, a gamers standpoint. It's important to view all situations from every angle.

[Jack B]

Siraris, sorry if I'm not about to tackle your post. You deserve a response for putting so much effort into it, but.... It would take far to long to post the facts, NPD numbers, links to news articles etc. to show some of the errors I noticed...

Also, If you would tackle each point one at a time, it would be easier to keep the thread going. There was just too much there going in different directions.

I think I have however, learned a lot about your take on the PS3.

[Zechs01]

umm is there a nutshell version of his post? :rolleyes:

[Jack B]

umm is there a nutshell version of his post? :rolleyes:

LOL!!

Cliff's Notes is coming out with a 3 part trilogy. :D

[Zechs01]

Lol, thats good i just dont have it in me to read all that :(

[Kamalot]

Siraris:

I'm sorry. We are going to have to agree to disagree on a good number of things, and that's cool. I appreciate the thoughtful response.

I think that's enough. Hopefully you will understand my points. I don't know what anyones backgrounds are here, but it's important to think about these things from many angles and not just from a consumer standpoint, or more importantly, a gamers standpoint. It's important to view all situations from every angle.

You and I agree on some things though. You'll see in many of my posts, multiple viewpoints of the industry. Designer, developer, publisher, even the localization team factor into anlysis. In the end though, the consumer is what we are and that is where our focus should be. Companies need to listen to us, becasue we are the ones with the purchasing power and we aren't sheep.

[Jack B]

Siraris:

I'm sorry. You are are going to have to agree to disagree on a good number of things, and that's cool. I appreciate the thoughtful response.



You and I agree on some things though. You'll see in many of my posts, multiple viewpoints of the industry. Designer, developer, publisher, even the localization team factor into anaysis. In the end though, the consumer is what we are and that is where our focus should be. Companies need to listen to us, becasue we are the ones with the purchasing power and we aren't sheep.

Kamalot, makes a good point. You'll soon get many of these topics covered in multiple threads. Also, you can click on someone's name and see "all posts by". Kamalot and I have enough posts on these topics you could see what we would likely have said, if we had the energy.

Thanks again for taking the time to put together that post, however after reading your history of posts, I'm now officially not a big fan. You went after a few people on this board I respect and didn't make a ton of sense in those posts either IMO.

I'm sure we'll meet again.

[Siraris]

I just saw this interview with the guys working on Assassin's Creed, and since it touched so close to the subject we've been discussing, I thought I'd post it up here (I think it's also an interesting bit of news). It was originally in Dutch, so the translation is a little off. I'm confused by what he means that like the PS2 you can have each cell core cooperate with the RSX independently. The PS2 only had one core, and no Cells. Still interesting stuff, especially on the Blu-Ray front.

Assassin's Creed guys (Nicholas Cantin and Alex Drouin).

OPM: How's your experience with the storage media of the PS3, the HDD and the BluRay disc? And do you have any comparable experience with HD-DVD technology?

M.M.: Our focus is 100% BluRay, so I cannot compare with HD-DVD. I can only say that the new BluRay disc format is truly awesome. The capacity is immense, and the Data Transfer Rate is way beyond what we are used to. And that's really important, because Data Streaming (OPMED: where the console constantly loads new data from disc) is truly the only way to push next-gen games to the limit. The Playstation 3 HDD is something that we have so far given less attention to, because it hasn't been certain all that long yet that it will be standard on every console. Decreasing load-times by copying a part of the game to the HDD is one possibility, though it doesn't matter all that much for a streaming game like ours. But there are tons of other applications, such as the possibility to as it were record your whole game, to be able to watch a replay of it later on. We intend to use the HD optimally, but how, I can't tell yet currently.

Also interesting is this question:

OPM: What do you think about the performance of the graphics chip, the Nvidia RSX?

M.M.: The RSX-chip is also a beast. Not only is it incredibly fast, but just like in the PS2 you can have each Cell-core cooperate with the RSX independently. Other graphics chips also have decent Noraml Mapping- and Shader-capabilities, but RSX adds a lot of additional specialised filters and possibilities, leading to fabulous results in the graphics department. And what is really convenient is that Nvidia has been a market-leader for years, and everyone knows the technology and way of thinking through-and-through. This decreases the learning process considerably.

[Kamalot]

Data Transfer Rate is way beyond what we are used to
I am sure, compared to the PS2, streaking the data is much faster on the PS3.

[Xerxes]

Yeah sounds like they started on this right after the ps2/xbox era. Funny thing is they'll eat there words when Ubi say "What, we put our major games on all platforms, make it happen."