XBox 360 Spring Update Screens

[bapenguin]

We've got some screenshots (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291150#post291150) for you of the XBox 360 Spring Update that should be available soon. While I don't have all the official details yet (I'll have those for you tomorrow) it looks like we get: background downloading with a queue, reorganized marketplace, fast forwarding download vids, boot up option to the dashboard and some other little tweaks.

http://www.evilavatar.com/images/previews/xbox360/thumb.screen6.jpg (http://www.evilavatar.com/images/previews/image.php?image=www.evilavatar.com/images/previews/xbox360/screen6.jpg)

And there was much rejoicing.

[xDrZaiusx]

mmmm..... yummy.

[Wyrm]

Making the best better.

[Gerbs]

That's hot.

[bone_matrix]

About time. Could have really used this during E3. But, I'm glad we are finally getting it.

Oh yeah, disc startup will be turned off for me. :D

[dotbomb]

Disc startup options and background downloading makes me happy.

[Wonka]

Very good. Now PLEASE add a group voice chat feature. I have more than one friend you know...

[askheaves]

And there was much rejoicing.


yaaaaaayyyy. yaaaaaayyy. yaaaayyyy.

I love updates :) The marketplace interface wasn't suited to the amount of content on there and, as such, many people are missing out on things they'd enjoy.

[BrainDrain]

Very good. Now PLEASE add a group voice chat feature. I have more than one friend you know...

Yeah, this is one of my biggest gripes about the 360, no group chat function.

[Snowmit]

I don't have more than one friend, so that's useless to me. But I would like them to seperate demos from trailers. I don't want to download trailers, I want demos.

[Deadend]

So, when will MS grow the balls to start selling HD movies over Live?

[Zanzibar]

FUCK YEAH. Wow - bootup option. That is SWEET. Didn't know that was coming.

[Reanimated]

This update is a mini-patch compared to what is coming in the Fall update.

[devicelimit]

Man, I am so glad they are adding background downloading. That will make live and marketplace way better.

[RandomViolence]

This update is a mini-patch compared to what is coming in the Fall update.

Is this a guess, or can you provide something with a little more substance?

[mightbe]

Aww. I thought it was an EvAv 360 theme at first. Now I'm disappointed.

[Banacek]

There is only one Live Update that I care about...

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/5163/stretfighter22ow.gif

[ElPresidente]

I have to say Microsoft after sales support of the 360 platform is staggering. I know a lot of people love to bitch about MS but come on... added functionality like this is fantastic. Especially since much of it is in response to customer feedback.

[Jack B]

Very good. Now PLEASE add a group voice chat feature. I have more than one friend you know...

Agreed, I've been wanting that for a while. I wonder if Microsoft is holding anything back 'til Sony launch or getting features added as fast as possible...

[Jack B]

So, when will MS grow the balls to start selling HD movies over Live?

They were trying to negotiate a deal with Directv for On Demand movies. Streaming I believe, but I haven't heard anything recently.

I've heard Analysts say digital distribution is the competitor for Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. It's not a given that either will win. If it's slow going, digital distribution for movies could catch up and disks would go the way of 3 1/2 inch floppies...

[ÜberJumper]

This is the future of software people, a monthly fee allows for regular updates and improvements to a product.

Go Microsoft.

[Heretic Machine]

I'm still gonna be pissed if there isn't a BC Update along with the dashboard update <.< It is long overdue.

[Roman]

This is the future of software people, a monthly fee allows for regular updates and improvements to a product.

Go Microsoft.But Sony's service is going to be FREE because everything should be FREE because the internet, and linux!!!

Seriously, this is why I don't mind paying for Live.

[Major Dan]

YAAAAYYYY, this will be good to get. Can't wait!

[Evil_SPanKY]

Mmmmm....leeeeroy Jennnnnkins

[pomeroy]

There is only one Live Update that I care about...

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/5163/stretfighter22ow.gif

Dude....I hear you. Dear GOD...I hear you.

[Heretic Machine]

Wait... what's up with the two WoW movies up for download there...?

[JediSanf]

Background queue and boot to dash? Most excellent. Now just update the BC list and I'll be really really happy.

[Jack B]

But Sony's service is going to be FREE because everything should be FREE because the internet, and linux!!!

Seriously, this is why I don't mind paying for Live.

Ditto here. I pains me to hear the complaints about $4 a month for 360 Live. Only 53% (or thereabouts) of the 360 users are on Live Gold, so it's obviously not worth it for some.

I think if you play online games it's well worth it, but some people just don't like to play against other humans.

[absolut taco]

So, when will MS grow the balls to start selling HD movies over Live?
With a 20GB hard drive? Fuhgeddaboudit!

[rainbowblack]

im happier about the disk starting options that was a pain. the download feature is sweet too. but never became an issue with me

[TRiLoGY]

this is great news :)

[bKangy]

Woo :) I'm picking a 360 up in about 3 weeks, so yay for more updates.

[BenSkywalker]

I know a lot of people love to bitch about MS but come on... added functionality like this is fantastic.

I think of it more along the lines of fixing one of the dumbest design choices to ever hit consoles. Let's take a tripple core processor and platform designed for heavy multi threading from the ground up and cripple it to single tasking doing the simplest function we offer...... This oversight should have seen a lot of people being fired, an immediate apology offered and a patch to fix it within a few days of the console launching. Sorry, when I have P66 machines running Win95 kicking around that can smack the 360 silly when it comes to basic downloading, which I pay a premium for, something is seriously wrong. You have to be seriously delusional if you consider this anything but fixing a serious flaw with the console. As of now, I'm done buying XBLA games because I don't want to waste my time with my console stuck DLing when I want to play a game.

[Vandenh]

They need to add Verizon VoIP calling like they did in messenger. Call anywhere in the world using your 360. My gf is hogging my laptop now to call Japan... would be better if she could just use TV/360.

"cripple it to single tasking doing the simplest function we offer"

The console world is a lot more sensitive when it comes to taking processor cycles away friom games.

[shnastybiznastic]

The console world is a lot more sensitive when it comes to taking processor cycles away friom games.
But not so sensitive that it matters when you push a button to bring a background thread to the foreground :rolleyes:

The guy had a point, with the multithreading ability in those processors, and the fact that downloading (with proper network and filesystem support) should take almost no processor cycles, there isn't much of a reason why they couldn't have done this before. Unless they just now got around to working around the lack of preemptive scheduling on chip.

Cool live updates though, wish there was something more enticing coming down the pipe, but this is neat.

[Vandenh]

"But not so sensitive that it matters when you push a button to bring a background thread to the foreground "

Microsoft gave the developers of the dashboard very strict maximum resources and CPU cycles that they could use. So I guess they couldn't get the background downloading within these specs. Now probably after some tweaking they managed to do that. Making stuff run in minimal resources is not easy. I bet big parts of the dashboard were written in ASM and not C/C++.

"the lack of preemptive scheduling on chip. "

???

That is done by the OS.

[shnastybiznastic]

Now probably after some tweaking they managed to do that. Making stuff run in minimal resources is not easy.
No doubt, I'm working on a DSLinux app to talk to my music server over the network, It's nine bitches in a bitch boat. Backgrounding downloads is still probably the only way microsoft will ever get joe sixpack to use the functionality, so idealy it would command a higher level of attention.

I bet big parts of the dashboard were written in ASM and not C/C++.
True, and that's a depressing thought, there's a team out there trying to write dashboard in PPC ASM. :( Makes me want to salute and pour a beer out for our comrades who make the ultimate sacrifice every day.

That is done by the OS.
Whoops! I guess I shouldn't post so late. :o

[MrMeatshake]

will they add an option to eject the tray, as well as loading it? that really irks me. don't know why. :)

woo for the update, though...

[Knite]

will they add an option to eject the tray, as well as loading it? that really irks me. don't know why. :)

woo for the update, though...

But... but... you've got to get up... and... put something in or take something out of the tray anyway... so... an eject button would... ??!!?!?

[phantomhitman]

why is everyone excited about street fighter? it was a good game, but its street fighter.

also, great pics for the updates. Of course the the pgr3 one is quite nice, but then again I am a pgr3 nut.

[Dr Quincy]

So, when will MS grow the balls to start selling HD movies over Live?

As soon as they grow the balls to start selling hard disc drives in larger formats than 2 movie's worth.

[Kelegacy]

why is everyone excited about street fighter? it was a good game, but its street fighter.

also, great pics for the updates. Of course the the pgr3 one is quite nice, but then again I am a pgr3 nut.
I don't know. I think it's because of online play and leaderboards. Stuff I really don't care about much, especially the latter. It must be a pride thing. I'd play online against someone, though. But it only works if you have no friends around in your normal life.

I can relate to that last part, at least gamer friends. All of mine are ex-jocks. I need geeks to play with, so the online feature is nice. But you are correct--it's still Street Fighter, a game we played to death long ago. The virtual console of the Wii is aiming old games at us, too, so the new "in" thing is retro gaming.

[crashedout]

As soon as they grow the balls to start selling hard disc drives in larger formats than 2 movie's worth.
That is one way, using an MCE or a network share for storage is a perfectly fine alternative right now.

[MrMeatshake]

But... but... you've got to get up... and... put something in or take something out of the tray anyway... so... an eject button would... ??!!?!?

yeah. but the fact is, you can close the tray. and if you're closing the tray, that means u've put something into it. which means u're right there, too. it seems odd to me that they have one thing without the other.

not that i'm particularly annoyed, though, it's not like i lie awake nights cursing billy gates. there's all sorts of other reasons for that :)

[MrMeatshake]

w00t! almost as exciting as a download queue:

There will also be "full" USB keyboard support ... goodbye clumsy text entry, hello wireless USB keyboard!

teh awesome!

[Pantsmonkey]

w00t! almost as exciting as a download queue:


There will also be "full" USB keyboard support ... goodbye clumsy text entry, hello wireless USB keyboard!

teh awesome!



I suggest one of these =) Gyration RF GC1105CKM =) (http://www.gyration.com/en-US/ProductDetail.html?modelnum=GC1105CKM&accshow=3)

True ranged wireless with a tiny dongle, plus its got a gyro in the mouse, mouse features of a gyro are coded to the features of a standard USB mouse. No dount folks the reason for full USB support is the ability to now control your XBOX with a gyro. Yes it would be working right now if I had the damn update and an Xbox 360 =) does this mean developers can make Gyro ready Xbox marketplace games and upload them to the live marketplace.

Interesting indeed.



http://www.gyration.com/gyration/images/GC1105CKM-large.jpg

[BabyJesus]

Wait... what's up with the two WoW movies up for download there...?

Where do you see those? I don't see anything about WoW...

[Kamalot]

This is the future of software people, a monthly fee allows for regular updates and improvements to a product.

That's just silly. I read the entire article and didn't see ANYTHING about software people, just updates to Xbox live.

Software people...sheesh!

[laggerific]

I don't know. I think it's because of online play and leaderboards. Stuff I really don't care about much, especially the latter. It must be a pride thing. I'd play online against someone, though. But it only works if you have no friends around in your normal life.

I can relate to that last part, at least gamer friends. All of mine are ex-jocks. I need geeks to play with, so the online feature is nice. But you are correct--it's still Street Fighter, a game we played to death long ago. The virtual console of the Wii is aiming old games at us, too, so the new "in" thing is retro gaming.

I know...they finally figured out after griping about emulation for so long that they might be able to use it to their advantage...I've been enjoying the qualities of retrogaming for years now...it's nice to know that I will soon be able to do it with a lot fewer consoles attached to my TV.

[Dag-Sabot]

Finally, i can confidently go out and punch that guy in the head who told me i was crazy to buy the '360.

Where is the chome hounds demo?

[phantomhitman]

um...i already use my wireless keyboard to type

[Mortis]

Hell yes, bring it on.

[torrefaction]

They were trying to negotiate a deal with Directv for On Demand movies. Streaming I believe, but I haven't heard anything recently.

I've heard Analysts say digital distribution is the competitor for Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. It's not a given that either will win. If it's slow going, digital distribution for movies could catch up and disks would go the way of 3 1/2 inch floppies...

Actually, Peter Moore said something along these lines himself.


While the arrival of that truck is likely to shake out a good number of game developers and publishers, Moore said that the retail landscape is set to undergo a particularly drastic change of face. Even though he made a point that the current retail model was hugely important to Microsoft's plans for the near future, he sees its days as numbered.

"Let's be fair. Whether it's five, 10, 15, 20 years from now, the concept of driving to the store to buy a plastic disc with data on it and driving back and popping it in the drive will be ridiculous," Moore said. "We'll tell our grandchildren that and they'll laugh at us."

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6144016.html

[absolut taco]

um...i already use my wireless keyboard to type
Some questions:
Does the keyboard receiver plug in the back USB, or one of the front controller ones? And how much of a pain was it to get that to work? And what keyboard do you use? Microsoft?
I sent one my friends a text message the other night and using the gamepad was so slow I just wanted to throw the thing at a wall!

[Kefkataran]

Where do you see those? I don't see anything about WoW...

Pretty sure he means #s 2 and 3 in the download queue: Bob's Cheese Adventure and Leeroy Jenkins Academy. I wanna know what thse are too...

[ruprect]

This is the future of software people, a monthly fee allows for regular updates and improvements to a product.

Go Microsoft.

People on the Silver Live package can download it too. Last I checked that was free.

So, how are they charging for regular updates and improvements?

[Jack B]

With a 20GB hard drive? Fuhgeddaboudit!

Use your imagination. Streaming doesn't require a 20GB hard drive.

Also, I wouldn't doubt a Live update, that would allow using your PC's HD for storage as well, although the streaming option eliminates that need.

[Serapth]

"We'll tell our grandchildren that and they'll laugh at us."

And when they do, I will beat them senseless. Might even pistol whip the little ingrateful bastards with my WWIII service revolver!

[Jack B]

As of now, I'm done buying XBLA games because I don't want to waste my time with my console stuck DLing when I want to play a game.

BenSkywalker,

You've got to be joking.... XBL Arcade games are under 50mb. It took me EXACTLY 1 MINUTE AND 14 SECONDS to download Zuma the FULL GAME.

Take a hike! I question your motives.

[Metal Jesus]

Background downloading will kick ass. Xbox Live just got even better...

[Jack B]

Some questions:
Does the keyboard receiver plug in the back USB, or one of the front controller ones? And how much of a pain was it to get that to work? And what keyboard do you use? Microsoft?
I sent one my friends a text message the other night and using the gamepad was so slow I just wanted to throw the thing at a wall!

I plugged the receiver into the USB connector in the back, but it shouldn't matter which one you use. I then sat down and typed something. It worked.

I'd say 60 seconds to take it out of the box and another... oh, maybe 15 seconds to install. :D

[absolut taco]

Use your imagination. Streaming doesn't require a 20GB hard drive.
No, but what existing internet connection allows you to stream HD video? I don't think you can even stream DVD quality video. Unless you're gonna take an hour break in the middle of the movie so your xbox has time to buffer the rest of it.

[Jack B]

No, but what existing internet connection allows you to stream HD video? I don't think you can even stream DVD quality video. Unless you're gonna take an hour break in the middle of the movie so your xbox has time to buffer the rest of it.

I have Comcast Cable and they have a limited selection (most are non HD) of HD movie and non movie content for On Demand Streaming. I know Time Warner, Dish, Directv all have streaming as well, but I don't know if it's HD or not.

Given that they can do it, I'd say that during this Gen, it's reasonable to assume that bandwidth and compression will improve to support it as well.

Thus, without the larger hard drive, I'd say 360 Live using the PC Hard Drive or streaming are possible. Don't know how quickly either will happen. Microsoft has been talking a bit about the newer compression technologies. I'd say the PC HD approach would come sooner.

The simpliest solution would be just offer 3rd party 360 drives of 100GB or more. Most downloaded movies would have an expiration anyway, so they'd be deleted after 24 to 48 hours.

Hope the Directv deal happens.

[Wonka]

No, but what existing internet connection allows you to stream HD video? I don't think you can even stream DVD quality video. Unless you're gonna take an hour break in the middle of the movie so your xbox has time to buffer the rest of it.

Any broadband internet connection should allow streaming of HD in the near future (my guess is the next few years). I won't say how I know this, so you can question my sources if you want to, and I won't present ANY actual evidence to rebutt you. So you may even feel smart if you do this, (for a time). Just remember that when it happens: I told you so.

[maja]

What they need to make is a crossfader for the music player. That way you can really use it for a party

[TrackZero]

About time. Could have really used this during E3. But, I'm glad we are finally getting it.

Oh yeah, disc startup will be turned off for me. :D

Totally. That was one of my favorite features when I first got my DS. I'm glad the 360 is finally going to have it (so I don't have to quickly keep hitting the guide button and bailing out the dashboard everytime my machine starts up).

[miah]

yay finally. has anybody noticed that the E3 videos are already disappearing from the marketplace? I was set to download a few more last night and I only saw one in the list.. I dont see why they'd remove anything from the list, just keep adding to it, maybe categorize it a little better so you can go into the 'e3 downloads' vs 'trailers and videos' being one huge list..

[Kefkataran]

I was set to download a few more last night and I only saw one in the list.. I dont see why they'd remove anything from the list, just keep adding to it, maybe categorize it a little better so you can go into the 'e3 downloads' vs 'trailers and videos' being one huge list..

Sure you're looking in the right list? If you check the "New" list, which is what it defaults to, I believe, that only has new stuff, obviously. But you if check "more" it has everything that's ever been on Marketplace in alphabetical order by subject (i.e. game or movie title)

[absolut taco]

Any broadband internet connection should allow streaming of HD in the near future (my guess is the next few years). I won't say how I know this, so you can question my sources if you want to, and I won't present ANY actual evidence to rebutt you. So you may even feel smart if you do this, (for a time). Just remember that when it happens: I told you so.
"I'll believe that when me shit turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet." - Super Troopers

My broadband downloads about 150KB/sec, which is the same transfer rate that CD Audio players use. If in 5 years I can watch streaming HD content on my PC or X360 using that connection, I will buy you a beer. In fact, I might buy you a brewery. ;)

[Heretic Machine]

"I'll believe that when me shit turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet." - Super Troopers

My broadband downloads about 150KB/sec, which is the same transfer rate that CD Audio players use. If in 5 years I can watch streaming HD content on my PC or X360 using that connection, I will buy you a beer. In fact, I might buy you a brewery. ;)

I'm with Texmex, there is no way we'll be streaming HD video over our current connections. Unless there is a paradigm shift in the broadband market that suddenly sweeps across the land, this is a pipe dream for at least another decade.

[Jack B]

"I'll believe that when me shit turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet." - Super Troopers

My broadband downloads about 150KB/sec, which is the same transfer rate that CD Audio players use. If in 5 years I can watch streaming HD content on my PC or X360 using that connection, I will buy you a beer. In fact, I might buy you a brewery. ;)

Absolute Taco, I'm at 2,133 Kbps and every year it gets faster and the compression gets better, so no it won't be "that connection" it will be with faster connections.

In 1899 the head of the U.S. Patent Office sent his resignation to President McKinley urging the closing of the office because "everything that could be invented has been invented."

Use some imagination. Send me a picture of your purple shit... :D

[torrefaction]

I'm with Texmex, there is no way we'll be streaming HD video over our current connections. Unless there is a paradigm shift in the broadband market that suddenly sweeps across the land, this is a pipe dream for at least another decade.

This is a bunch of crap. :)

First of all, Comcast provides 6 Mbp/s.

Verizon is rolling out Fiber
http://www22.verizon.com/FiOSForHome/channels/FiOS/root/package.aspx

Bellsouth is offering up to 6 Mbp/s
http://www.bellsouth.com/consumer/inetsrvcs/index.html

And, I can already stream HD content with Comcast. It's foolish to make outright claims like this.

[Jack B]

I'm with Texmex, there is no way we'll be streaming HD video over our current connections. Unless there is a paradigm shift in the broadband market that suddenly sweeps across the land, this is a pipe dream for at least another decade.

Perigon,

I don't know the answer, but you or others might. When Comcast Cable streams HD On Demand movies, how much bandwidth are they using? Also, since I have both Comcast Cable and Comcast Internet, can that same network be utilized by Sony or Microsoft for instance if they worked out the licensing? Thanks.

[Jack B]

"I'll believe that when me shit turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet." - Super Troopers

My broadband downloads about 150KB/sec, which is the same transfer rate that CD Audio players use. If in 5 years I can watch streaming HD content on my PC or X360 using that connection, I will buy you a beer. In fact, I might buy you a brewery. ;)

Absolute taco,

Here is the Feb 2006 article from Joystick re the Directv deal.

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/02/17/directv-blade-coming-to-360-dashboard/

A scan of the March 2006 issue of Official Xbox Magazine reveals "that a DirecTV blade might be added to your Xbox 360 Dashboard to accompany the Xbox Live, Games, Media, and System blades. In that blade, you could download TV episodes in high definition, HD movies on demand, and standard-definition streaming DVR (i.e., TiVo) functions."

I don't know if the deal got done or is still being negotiated, but likely the technology was close enough to consider a deal regardless... Maybe the deal is done and Microsoft is waiting to announce at the PS3 launch.

Here another interesting article talking about MLB.com trying to stream HD on the internet. This year it's difficult, but a 5mbs connection is what they deem the minimum requriement. As Torrent pointed out 6mbs and higher is already offered by Comcast, Verizon etc. I expect to be running double that in 2-3 years...

The typical Internet connection is 2 to 3 megabits per second, says Laszlo. The minimum needed to stream HD-quality video is 5mbps. Laszlo added that even if bandwidth were to be increased, computers with lower graphics processing power may be unable to display the richer details that HD provides.

Also,

[That could mean a missed opportunity. In a report released Wednesday, the research firm IDC predicted Web video will generate $1.7 billion in annual sales by 2010, a 750 percent jump from sales this year. "Internet video services are on the brink of becoming a mainstream phenomenon in the United States," IDC said in the report.

We're on the brink... Video compression is also helping significantly. What do you need for the better compression technologies... Better processor's, like the PS3 and 360 have for instance.

Bottom line, is we're much closer than 10 years and likely much closer than 5 years for HD streaming on the Internet.

I'd say 1 year. Will the masses on the 360 have enough bandwidth? Probably not all, but some this year and it will grow quickly.

HD Movies with the 360 and the PS3 will be happening soon and it won't just be on Blu-Ray. This is Sony's quandry. Supporting Blu-Ray means, not supporting Digital HD movie delivery, either by stream or by download.

I love the color purple... :D

[pacman]

I don't know. I think it's because of online play and leaderboards. Stuff I really don't care about much, especially the latter. It must be a pride thing. I'd play online against someone, though. But it only works if you have no friends around in your normal life.

I can relate to that last part, at least gamer friends. All of mine are ex-jocks. I need geeks to play with, so the online feature is nice. But you are correct--it's still Street Fighter, a game we played to death long ago. The virtual console of the Wii is aiming old games at us, too, so the new "in" thing is retro gaming.

Actually, the fighting game community is excited about Hyper Fighting because it may serve to bring the game back into tournaments, because an arcade-perfect (hopefully) version of the game will be accessible by a large number of people finally. Sure, many people have played HF to death, but for many people these earlier fighting games were and still are the pinnacle of the genre, and they don't play 3D fighters (there are a number of reasons for this)
I'm with them. I never got into HF much as I like Super Turbo better, but when it drops on Live Arcade I will be buying it and setting down to play for hours...it's going to be great

Also, on topic, the updates to Live are pretty cool...background d/l is something I have been hoping for since I fired up Live

[Jack B]

"I'll believe that when me shit turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet." - Super Troopers

My broadband downloads about 150KB/sec, which is the same transfer rate that CD Audio players use. If in 5 years I can watch streaming HD content on my PC or X360 using that connection, I will buy you a beer. In fact, I might buy you a brewery. ;)

Abolute taco,

Just found the SBC/AT&T U-Verse service. Streamed HDTV over the Internet. It's available now in San Antonio, TX to be rolled out nationwide soon.

SBC is planning an initial controlled market entry in late 2005 or early 2006. The company plans to add more features and functionality, including whole-home DVR and high-definition functionality, to the SBC U-verse TV offering and enter more markets beginning in mid-2006. Both vendors continue to make progress in delivering the technology to SBC. At this time, SBC expects to use Motorola set-top boxes initially when it scales the service, with Scientific-Atlanta set-top boxes soon thereafter.

The set-top boxes will operate the new Microsoft® TV IPTV Edition software. SBC provided a common set of specifications to both vendors to build the set-top boxes.

http://att.sbc.com/gen/press-room?pid=4800&cdvn=news&newsarticleid=21772

I knew we wouldn't have to wait 5-10 years, but I was surprised it's available today...

Click here to order today... :)

http://www.sbcforyou.com/uverse/?DCMP=att_uverse

[absolut taco]

Absolute Taco, I'm at 2,133 Kbps and every year it gets faster and the compression gets better, so no it won't be "that connection" it will be with faster connections.

In 1899 the head of the U.S. Patent Office sent his resignation to President McKinley urging the closing of the office because "everything that could be invented has been invented."

Use some imagination. Send me a picture of your purple shit... :D
Why are you telling me this? Of course streaming HDTV will work in the future with faster connections. All I told Wonka was that it ain't gonna happen with my connection.

[BenSkywalker]

You've got to be joking.... XBL Arcade games are under 50mb. It took me EXACTLY 1 MINUTE AND 14 SECONDS to download Zuma the FULL GAME.

Takes me a lot longer then that to download a picture pack. I only have a 768K DSL connection(fastest I can get) and DLing a game takes me quite a bit longer then that, particularly when MS's extremely poor servers are incapable of handling their subscriber base(E3 anyone? took me eight HOURS to DL the Halo3 non trailer). My ping times are exceptional over Live!, usually 10-12ms(since I stopped using wireless, then I was pushing 30ms) at least they are handling that OK. So I can pay a premium fee to get DL performance comparable to a DOS system running through a 2800baud modem..... I don't know why you would get psyched up about it but it seems to me that any thinking person would be pretty pissed off. Then there are all of the patches you have to DL for console games- that is sickeningly pathetic and an embarassment to the industry. This was always the first element I held up as an example of why console gaming has an enormous advantage over PC gaming- now this is gone. Obviously Sony and Nintendo care far more about quality then MS, thank gawd, or the console industry as a whole wouldn't be looking to good.

One reason I am on a bit of a rant is last night I had a couple of hours worth of gaming time and every freakin game I tried to play needed an update- there are also demos I am interested in checking out but in realistic terms MS has made this feature completely unuseable for me ATM. Sit and wait for half an hour out of the hour and a half gaming time I have? I don't think so. I would rather pay for a copy of the demo in a store then waste a half hour of my time waiting for a system built from the ground up for multi threading to be locked into a single non interactive task.

After paying close to $600 for my 360(thanks for forcing gamers to buy a core then all the components to build a premium MS) having more then half of my miniscule HD taken up by MS's bloatware and cache space, paying for a XBLive! Gold subscription only to find out it is nigh unuseable in its current state along with the, according to propaganda- 'rare hardware failure that requires replacement' I am less then impressed to say the least. I was a very vocal supporter of the original XBox, the 360 so far has been a steaming pile of sh!t being as kind as I possibly can to it.

Fixing the inexplicably broken DLing for the console is certainly a step in the right direction- but they still have an extremely long way to go before they get to where I thought the 3DO was at a comparable life cycle point in terms of being a solid gaming platform.

[Kefkataran]

Ben --

Far as I've seen E3 was the only time Live has had serious trouble in that order. It's impressive Live hasn't gone down much at all. And HALF your HD space was taken up? :| Whaaaat? Did we get a different system? Your problems have got to be pretty rare. I had a hardware problem and had to get my 360 replaced, but since then I've been fine and the online service especially has been near perfect.

[Serapth]

Actually thats one thing I havent been able to figure out. Im on 4 or 5 meg DSL ( seems to depend on which way the wind is blowing each day ) and my download speeds on Live SUCK. I mean, its a good 1/2 hour to get a 400meg demo, which on the PC may take 10 - 15 minutes.

[absolut taco]

Actually thats one thing I havent been able to figure out. Im on 4 or 5 meg DSL ( seems to depend on which way the wind is blowing each day ) and my download speeds on Live SUCK. I mean, its a good 1/2 hour to get a 400meg demo, which on the PC may take 10 - 15 minutes.
Your first use of "meg" indicates Megabit. Your second use is Megabyte. There are 8 bits for every byte. Sorry, had to get that out of me.
The explanation for your speed is very simple. Xbox live probably limits the download speed, so that more people can download (but slower).

[BenSkywalker]

It's impressive Live hasn't gone down much at all.

Honest question- why is that impressive? My DSL hasn't gone down in a few years either.

And HALF your HD space was taken up?

10GBs gone. I already had it replaced too(it flat out died on me inside of a month), same thing(MS told me that is normal).

I had a hardware problem and had to get my 360 replaced, but since then I've been fine and the online service especially has been near perfect.

You already have had a hardware failure(who hasn't? :p ), XBL fell down for you during E3 and you can't do anything while DLing something- it sounds like we are in close to the same situation. Difference is that my expectations are much higher apparently. I get pretty POd when I drop $100 for a 10GB HD(advertised as 20GB), pay for a nigh unuseable online subscription service and have that service fail almost completely the one time I want it the most. They charged me $600 plus a subscription fee not to mention the $600 I've dropped on games- in all honesty the PS3 is starting to look like a fire sale bargain at this point to me(not really, but it's getting there ;) ).

[Serapth]

Your first use of "meg" indicates Megabit. Your second use is Megabyte. There are 8 bits for every byte. Sorry, had to get that out of me.
The explanation for your speed is very simple. Xbox live probably limits the download speed, so that more people can download (but slower).

Yeah, im aware of the difference between MB and Mb. As to the explanation, god I hope that isnt it, that would truly suck. Taking like 5 minutes to download 30 megs is like going back in time 3 years.

[Jack B]

Why are you telling me this? Of course streaming HDTV will work in the future with faster connections. All I told Wonka was that it ain't gonna happen with my connection.

Absolut taco, I wondered if you'd bring that up... Yes, technically you did only say, "your" connection. Not exactly on point with the discussion about whether Live 360 could support it, but your statement was specific to your connection.

I'd agree 100%. :D

[torrefaction]

Honest question- why is that impressive? My DSL hasn't gone down in a few years either.


Apples to oranges man. Because a large scale, service based site that needs to maintain connectivity across multiple countries is EXTREMELY, HUGELY, difficult to maintain. I don't know if you've ever been in a tech position, but it can be hard to keep a single office online. Hell, fucking Google goes down from time to time (as rare as that is.) And they don't have to worry about connectivity persistence. They have junk computers that they pile up, and a failure means nothing to them. I strongly doubt that Microsoft can take this same path (they don't use Linux.)

This is on top of ensuring that your BGP tables are routed optimally, that your peers are inline. They have to maintain an IGP too, probably OSPF. They have databases to maintain and scale, and a very large number of VERY complex factors to take in to account.

On top of all this, they've had to account for 2 INCREDIBLE traffic spikes that no amount of testing can prepare for.

1.) The launch of the damn system, where everyone had their trial period of Gold, and abused it.

2.) E-Fucking-3. And even then, the problems were minimal.

All of that, and more, is why it's impressive.

[Kefkataran]

10GBs gone. I already had it replaced too(it flat out died on me inside of a month), same thing(MS told me that is normal).

10 GIGS? What the fuck did MSN put on there that wasn't on mine? I really have no clue what you mean here at all.


You already have had a hardware failure(who hasn't? ), XBL fell down for you during E3 and you can't do anything while DLing something- it sounds like we are in close to the same situation.

It didn't 'fall down', it was just slower than usual, which was understandable considering the E3 rush on their service. And they're fixing the 'can't do anything while DLing' thing, remember? And tank God for it.

pay for a nigh unuseable online subscription service and have that service fail almost completely the one time I want it the most.

What? How is their online close ot unusable? I've NEVER had a problem playing games online. You know you don't need to pay the Live fee to download shit, right?

[Serapth]

And tank God for it.

Wouldnt that be some serious blasphemy?

[Jack B]

Takes me a lot longer then that to download a picture pack. I only have a 768K DSL connection(fastest I can get) and DLing a game takes me quite a bit longer then that, particularly when MS's extremely poor servers are incapable of handling their subscriber base(E3 anyone? took me eight HOURS to DL the Halo3 non trailer).

BenSkywalker,

Your post sounds sincere enough, but it just doesn't seem right. Yes 768k is about 1/3 as fast as mine, but that should equate out to about 3-4 minutes for Zuma. Certainly it takes much longer to drive to a store, purchase a game, open the package, and install it to a PC hard for instance.

A watched pot never boils, so it could seem longer to you.... I'd be intested if you'd actually time one of the trailers tonight. Note the size and how long it takes. You could have a technical problem. I'll time the same trailer.

8 hours to download the Halo trailer? That's only about 120mb if I remember correctly. Something is wrong with your 360, Internet connection or watch. Was that on the day of the Microsoft conference? Did you notice it was stopped for the majority of the 8 hours?

My speeds were slower during that week, but still fine. I downloaded almost every single trailer.

I don't know why you would get psyched up about it but it seems to me that any thinking person would be pretty pissed off. Then there are all of the patches you have to DL for console games- that is sickeningly pathetic and an embarassment to the industry.

Um, those are so quick I barely notice. I just popped in MLB 2k6 last night and the update took all of about 15 seconds. I jumped out to see if it was the Live Update, but it wasn't.

Secondly, I've played PC games for 20 years. Patches are a part of life. The big difference with Live is I don't have to hunt around on a support site for the correct version and make sure it works with my video card, save it, unzip it, run it and hope it works.... Live is a dream. You pop the disk in and the update just happens.

One reason I am on a bit of a rant is last night I had a couple of hours worth of gaming time and every freakin game I tried to play needed an update- there are also demos I am interested in checking out but in realistic terms MS has made this feature completely unuseable for me ATM. Sit and wait for half an hour out of the hour and a half gaming time I have? I don't think so.

Something is seriously wrong with your connection speed or your exaggerating your download times to try and prove a point. Check with your broadband supplier's tech support. Now if it's a 500mb to 1GB demo, then that could take a while, but it would take a while on a PC too.

After paying close to $600 for my 360(thanks for forcing gamers to buy a core then all the components to build a premium MS) having more then half of my miniscule HD taken up by MS's bloatware and cache space, paying for a XBLive! Gold subscription only to find out it is nigh unuseable in its current state

Now this is starting to get funny. Cache space? What? You're complaining about performance, yet don't want the software companies to have cache space? Also, you are exaggerating again. It's 7mb out of 20 and some of the 7 is not cache it's from content that ships with the 360, that you can delete.

Paying for XBLive? XBLive isn't usuable in it's current state! Check your Internet connection. Something is wrong...

This is a weird rant. You are really pissed about your 360 experience.... That's not typical by any stretch.

Fixing the inexplicably broken DLing for the console is certainly a step in the right direction- but they still have an extremely long way to go before they get to where I thought the 3DO was at a comparable life cycle point in terms of being a solid gaming platform.

Phew! ....extremely long way to go before they get to where I thought the 3DO was at a comparable life cycle point in terms of being a solid gaming platform? ....Inexplicably broken downloading? Yikes!

[Kefkataran]

Wouldnt that be some serious blasphemy?

Psh. I got a level 60 mage. I tank God all the time.

[dr_wily]

I find the dling sorta aggravating since it doesnt tell you your speed, just a meter. also its sorta weird cause when i get disconnected from dling, it says complete with a check icon. then you select download again and then it continues.. even dumber is that say it was at 8%, you dl again and suddenly its 50%.

but you can beat free demo dling with the silver membership. ive dled 5 demos already today, and the 720p trailers look great on the big screen!

[BenSkywalker]

Apples to oranges man. Because a large scale, service based site that needs to maintain connectivity across multiple countries is EXTREMELY, HUGELY, difficult to maintain.

If it is beyond their capabilities, they shouldn't be taking my money for it. If I buy a new car, I don't want to hear it can't drive on Wednesdays because of how complex it is to do something properly. Do it, or don't. Don't take my money if you can't handle it- it really is that simple. Google on a typical day utterly dwarfs what XBL handles, for that matter so does WoW. There is no excuse, don't take my money if you can't handle it.

10 GIGS? What the fuck did MSN put on there that wasn't on mine? I really have no clue what you mean here at all.

No idea, they told me between 12GB and 10GB is normal to have for free space, I mentioned that is a pretty big gap and they said it was normal.

And they're fixing the 'can't do anything while DLing' thing, remember?

Can you honestly say that you know of anyone that would have ever let it ship without it being fixed?

Certainly it takes much longer to drive to a store, purchase a game, open the package, and install it to a PC hard for instance.

GameStop is on my way home, very convenient for me to access too.

8 hours to download the Halo trailer? That's only about 120mb if I remember correctly. Something is wrong with your 360, Internet connection or watch.

Everyone I talked to had about the same when the trailer hit. My 360 has already been 'fixed' by MS once and just to check I DLd a file quickly on my PC- no issues whatsoever.

Secondly, I've played PC games for 20 years. Patches are a part of life. The big difference with Live is I don't have to hunt around on a support site for the correct version and make sure it works with my video card, save it, unzip it, run it and hope it works....

When did you stop gaming on your PC? I don't recall the last game that I had that didn't auto update(of course if you are running beta patches or vendor specific issues- as an ATi owner I know how frequently that is required- that is something different). Besides that- that is inexcuseable on a console- period. The no patch issue is one of the reasons that console gaming dwarfs PC gaming- and for good reason.

Check with your broadband supplier's tech support. Now if it's a 500mb to 1GB demo, then that could take a while, but it would take a while on a PC too.

My PC does not lock up when I DL something. In fact, I can have a dozen downloads running concurrently and not the slightest hesitation. As I mentioned, I have an old junker PC here from a decade ago that can handle DLs far better then the 360.

Now this is starting to get funny. Cache space? What? You're complaining about performance, yet don't want the software companies to have cache space? Also, you are exaggerating again. It's 7mb out of 20 and some of the 7 is not cache it's from content that ships with the 360, that you can delete.

If it were seven megabits I certainly wouldn't have a problem. When it is ten gigabytes I do ;) BTW- I deleted all of MS's extremely poor HD content and music as soon as I got my system both times.

Paying for XBLive? XBLive isn't usuable in it's current state! Check your Internet connection. Something is wrong...

Everything is working silky smooth here for my net connection- exactly where is should be. I already ditched the wireless because that was far too slow(~30ms pings- I get ~20ms with any of my laptops using their wireless) and switched to Cat5(cut my ping time down to ~10- which I don't have a complaint about). Every step of the way my connection is solid, just the 360 locks up when I try to DL anything at all.

Phew! ....extremely long way to go before they get to where I thought the 3DO was at a comparable life cycle point in terms of being a solid gaming platform?

Absolutely- do you recall where the 3DO was at a comparable life cycle point? Had a very solid lineup of titles in comparison to the 360, was by far the most powerful available at the time and offered lots of new technology that the other consoles couldn't come close to.

This is a weird rant. You are really pissed about your 360 experience.... That's not typical by any stretch.

Overwhelmingly the people that own a 360 now are the die hard MS loyalists. I make sure I own every viable gaming platform available- I play games not systems. That said, as a gaming platform right now I would say the 360 is without a doubt very poor. There a lot of things MS could fix to turn it around like getting rid of some of the obnoxiously stupid design choices(videos don't go to videos- play now doesn't play now etc) in terms of their interface and implementation and fixing the major hardware design issues(supposedly they are adressing this as we speak) or else they will be lucky to end up looking as good as they did last gen- they should get beating Sony out of their mind for now- they need to focus on not alienating the mainstream gamers who certainly will not be as forgiving as even I am over these obvious major shortcomings.

[Kamalot]

Overwhelmingly the people that own a 360 now are the die hard MS loyalists.I didn't have an Xbox. I got a 360.

Did you mean all the people Microsoft's winning over are turning 'die hard'?

You may be onto something.

[Kefkataran]

Can you honestly say that you know of anyone that would have ever let it ship without it being fixed?

Um... Microsoft? I agree it should've been there from launch, but it wasn't like it was a bug or anything. They just didn't have the insight (or time) to work it in. Now they are. I say kudos to them for actually doing it.


My PC does not lock up when I DL something.

And if you're PC did lock up when DLing you'd know something was defective. Same with the 360. It shouldn't be locking up while DLing.

Overwhelmingly the people that own a 360 now are the die hard MS loyalists.

That's completely untrue. Most the people I know (off this site) who have a 360 are not "MS loyalists". Hell, before owning a 360, I was very anti-MS. I had no interest in the original Xbox at all. But my experience with the 360, besides the hardware failure at first, (and even with that in the customer service area) has been top-notch.

That said, as a gaming platform right now I would say the 360 is without a doubt very poor. There a lot of things MS could fix to turn it around like getting rid of some of the obnoxiously stupid design choices(videos don't go to videos- play now doesn't play now etc) in terms of their interface and implementation and fixing the major hardware design issues(supposedly they are adressing this as we speak) or else they will be lucky to end up looking as good as they did last gen- they should get beating Sony out of their mind for now- they need to focus on not alienating the mainstream gamers who certainly will not be as forgiving as even I am over these obvious major shortcomings.

You have some points, but calling them 'major shortcomings' is a 'major' stretch. The vast majority of what you keep pointing out are minor nitpicks, many being fixed (not being able to do anything while d/ling) or hardware problems that are going to happen to every system (i.e. some percentage of systems having hardware failure). Obviously your experience with 360 hasn't been that good, but you're still in the minority on that, man. And not just cause 'everyone else is a fanboy'.

[torrefaction]

If it is beyond their capabilities, they shouldn't be taking my money for it. If I buy a new car, I don't want to hear it can't drive on Wednesdays because of how complex it is to do something properly. Do it, or don't. Don't take my money if you can't handle it- it really is that simple. Google on a typical day utterly dwarfs what XBL handles, for that matter so does WoW. There is no excuse, don't take my money if you can't handle it.


You've just gone from sincere arguments, to anti-microsoft idiot. First of all, WoW is NOTORIOUS for huge server problems. They went on for a very, very long time after launch. Guess why? Remember my previous point, talking about massive, unexpected traffic.
You just fucking won my argument for me. XBL is NOT notorious for problems, as a matter of fact, it is an INCREDIBLE service compared to PC gaming. Not only that, you're the only one here who has all these problems. You've also obviously not researched your points. Other people here can tell you that I hate that. An uninformed opinion is almost 99% of the time, a stupid opinion. And I'm not saying you should accept an inferior product. What I'm saying is that if you have problems, they're yours alone.

http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/24/1855218&from=rss
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=6345
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=6345
http://www.seobook.com/archives/000852.shtml

DNS Issues are a bitch, and only one of many reasons you could have problems.

Admittedly, even by Microsoft, the download functionality was weak. They fixed it. There is nothing wrong with this, and I commend them for it.

Also, If you knew anything about me, you'd know I'm far from a Microsoft fanboy, and that's just a fucking stupid thing to say. I've been using Linux for over 12 years, and if Windows didn't have better game support, it wouldn't be on my desktop. Hell, I'm a professional network engineer who for years put focus on Linux administration. Coming from this background, I'm certain I know far more about this particular topic than you do.

[BenSkywalker]

I agree it should've been there from launch

You would have caught that prior to launch, as would anyone who actually used the system and cared about gaming.

And if you're PC did lock up when DLing you'd know something was defective. Same with the 360. It shouldn't be locking up while DLing.

Locking up, not crashing.

That's completely untrue. Most the people I know (off this site) who have a 360 are not "MS loyalists".

Sure, people always line up to drop $400 on a console from a company they don't care for ;) This close to a system launch the same can be said about almost any system ever- particularly given that MS has no exclusive killer app to move the hardware to date(six months and counting).

Obviously your experience with 360 hasn't been that good, but you're still in the minority on that, man. And not just cause 'everyone else is a fanboy'.

When have I used that term?

First of all, WoW is NOTORIOUS for huge server problems. They went on for a very, very long time after launch. Guess why? Remember my previous point, talking about massive, unexpected traffic.

When did I imply they did not have issues around their launch? I have to apologize for assuming that English was your first language, it is extremely clear from your post that that is not the case- either that or you read something that I did not type. I posted that WoW had a higher daily useage then XBL- which it does. Nowhere did I imply that their launch went without issue. That said, it is a flat out bald face lie to say that MS or Blizzard did not know exactly what they would need on the outside in terms of servers. They shipped a given amount of product- that is the load they need to be capable of handling. The big difference as I see it is that WoW is functioning fairly decently as of now while MS made a larger profit last quarter then Blizzard has total in its history.

XBL is NOT notorious for problems, as a matter of fact, it is an INCREDIBLE service compared to PC gaming.

Really? Seems I have no issues with the games I play on the PC- you must not know how to set your PC up properly, or perhaps you have issues with your internet connection :p

You just fucking won my argument for me.

It is an argument you created in your mind. Google also had loads of teething problems when it was first being assembled back in the early days by a couple of college kids- Live is now several years old. Can you figure out the difference that I am implying with that? If not- this isn't MS's first shot at large scale gaming- the Zone and XBL have both been around for years. They also run one of(if not the) largest web site on the net, they are not some small fry dev house with relatively extremely limited resources. Due to this, their problems are not ones that should be overlooked. This is not new to them, they have the money, they knew exactly what kind of probable load they were looking at down to the single user. Also unlike Blizzard they knew they were going to have a 100% sell out rate for quite some time. There was no large varriable they were dealing with, it was quite controlled actually.

Also, If you knew anything about me, you'd know I'm far from a Microsoft fanboy, and that's just a fucking stupid thing to say.

Who is it that said you were? You only quoted me so I can only assume that is what you are implying. My post earlier is unedited- point out where I said any such thing.

I've been using Linux for over 12 years

You were using Linux in '94? That gives me the impression that you are very much a masochist- it doesn't speak to me at all about your approval or disdain for MS. Win 3.11 versus very early builds of Linux...... wasn't the glory days of computing for sure.

Hell, I'm a professional network engineer who for years put focus on Linux administration.

And what does that have to do with anything?

Coming from this background, I'm certain I know far more about this particular topic than you do.

And you know what about me exactly?

[Banacek]

Galileo
Galileo
Galileo
Galileo
Galileo figaro, magnifico!
But Im just a poor boy and nobody loves me
Hes just a poor boy from a poor family,
Spare him his life from this monstrosity
Easy come easy go, will you let me go?
Bismillah! No, we will not let you go!
Let him go!
Bismillah! We will not let you go!
Let him go!
Bismillah! We will not let you go
Let me go!
Will not let you go!
Let me go!
Will not let you go!
Let me go!
No, no, no, no, no, no, no!
Mama Mia, Mama Mia!
Mama Mia let me go!
Beelzebub has a devil put aside for me, for me, for me!

[mightbe]

I find your post both insightful and useful. Thank you so much, Ban.

[ElPresidente]

Banacek FTW :P

[torrefaction]

Really? Seems I have no issues with the games I play on the PC- you must not know how to set your PC up properly, or perhaps you have issues with your internet connection :p



Are you honestly arguing that matchmaking is easier on PC than the Xbox Live? Because that's ridiculous. I play games online just fine. The experience is much easier and much more enjoyable on Xbox Live, end of story.

Due to this, their problems are not ones that should be overlooked. This is not new to them, they have the money, they knew exactly what kind of probable load they were looking at down to the single user.


Once again, you're the only one who seems to be having all these issues. I was just justifying a slower service during E3. When you have to ramp up that many users, problems occur.


Who is it that said you were? You only quoted me so I can only assume that is what you are implying. My post earlier is unedited- point out where I said any such thing.


Pretty much you.


Overwhelmingly the people that own a 360 now are the die hard MS loyalists.



You were using Linux in '94? That gives me the impression that you are very much a masochist- it doesn't speak to me at all about your approval or disdain for MS.


Because I like to learn? Because a 12 year old can't afford a Unix mainframe, that makes me a masochist? It should tell you that I'm obviously not a huge MS fanboy. I obviously used alternatives, and are very familiar with them. An MS fanboy wouldn't be an avid Linux user for twelve years. As a matter of fact, with the original Xbox, I had HUGE doubts they could make the right play. I bought it halfway through the generation, and was fairly impressed. I always said if they were going to do something right, they'd do it 2nd or 3rd gen.

FYI, I currently own the PS2, Gamecube, Xbox, Xbox 360, and a really nice computer. I play games..not systems.

But to argue that XBL is a shoddy service is ridiculous. It's better than ANY computer based matchmaking platform. It's far better than any pathetic online capabilities the PS2 had. Everyone here is telling you it's just your experience. That should tell you something. And I mentioned everything before, because it tells me something about your mindset that you can't accept that we all have had good experiences. No lockups. No 8 hour downloads. So, you see, any thinking person might realize their experience is isolated.

Also, if you didn't expect slowdown when they added orders more of EXTREMELY desired content, you're a bit off your rocker. And this was my point about scalability. MS did NOT have a download service before this revision of Live. This is an early service, and it is impressive it worked that well. And it's impressive that they are working to fix what problems the consumer has with the functionality. They are hearing our voices, appreciate that.

Oh, and on your earlier statement about console bugs. Games have always had them. Even Console games. Now they can fix them. And when you make Software more complex, it breaks. That's just the nature of Software. You CANNOT catch everything it test, it's impossible. Read some software testing theory and realize the extent of the problem.

[Jack B]

Overwhelmingly the people that own a 360 now are the die hard MS loyalists. I make sure I own every viable gaming platform available- I play games not systems. That said, as a gaming platform right now I would say the 360 is without a doubt very poor.

BenSkywalker,

Did you just eat a lemon...? Yeah, maybe Microsoft should eliminate the Xbox 360 Live Service. According to BenSkywalker, they've failed miserably.

I've seen your previous replies to everyone who objected to your post. What I haven't seen is "one single point of contention where you said, OK, you got me there, I exaggerated a bit, or yeah maybe that is a nitpick or maybe it wasn't a bug, but I feature I wished they had have included..".

Here's a great example:

As of now, I'm done buying XBLA games because I don't want to waste my time with my console stuck DLing when I want to play a game.

I replied that Zuma took 1 min and 14 seconds and that you should check your connection speed or your watch, because even 3 minutes is quicker than a trip to the store.

Instead of a "well, maybe I over exaggerated on the XBL Arcade downloadings issue..". You gave some stupid comment on how Gamestop is on your way home. You're being an ass man. :mad:

Tell your ego to take a rest and at least concede a tiny bit on a single response. The collective responsives could not have been so lame as to not find one point, you were off base on... Try it some time. Practice sayiing, "You bring up a good point". Repeat as necessary until you can type it in an actual post. It's quite refreshing.

We've all done it. We've all made posts and then someone comes up with some valid points and we say, OK, that was a good point, but I don't agree with this and that. You won't concede one inch.

Send an email to Sony and tell them not to try and match it, because it's a horrible mistake and millions of users say, they like it, but really everyone hates and it's just a trick to fool Sony into building a Live service. Just ask BenSkywalker. He'll tell you how bad it is...

You have a right to your opinion. Go for it, but if you dislike your 360 so much, you should sell it, unless you like having something to complain about. No amount of me telling you, I don't experience the problems you claim you do is going to matter.

I tried to help with suggestions, you came back and said, "My Internet connection is perfect and my experience is horrible, so there...". Great. Sell it then.

I love the hell out of my 360 period. Am I a die hard Microsoft loyalist. Sorry, I'm not. I applaud and buy good products by any company when I see them. They are actually a top 3 competitor of mine in my real life enterprise software job.

I think the 360 is worth every penny and I'm not selling it. I can't say enough good things about Live and my experience with some very enjoyable games. I have a few minor issues, I'd like to see improved, but personally I expect that. I don't expect perfection. If Microsoft or Sony or Nintendo waited long enough to launch so BenSkywalker would be satisfied the Next Gen would likely not start at all.

I'd like you to produce a "rant" on the things you love about a 360, because your rant on why Live is horrible seemed very one sided.

24 milliion downloads and a virtual (I say virtual, because you may not be in that group) consenus, that Live is the best console based online service, a tremendous advance for the industry and a serious "advantage' for Microsoft would appear disagree with your take.

[Kefkataran]

You would have caught that prior to launch, as would anyone who actually used the system and cared about gaming.

Dude, you're nuts. It was dumb that it wasn't there. It's coming now. But it's far from something as vital as you're making it. Geez.


Sure, people always line up to drop $400 on a console from a company they don't care for This close to a system launch the same can be said about almost any system ever- particularly given that MS has no exclusive killer app to move the hardware to date(six months and counting).


Thanks for completely ignoring how I'm not an MS loyalist and bought the system anyways, just like, as I already fucking said, most the people I know off this site who own one. Douche. Also: MS loyalist = fanboy. The two are more or less interchangeable. A person who is considered a 'loyalist' to a company is going to be a fanboy.

Again, obviously you've had a bad experience with your 360 and especially Xbox Live, and I have no clue why, but assuming that's the norm is a mistake -- you're wrong. Most people seem to think Xbox Live is the best thing 360 has going, and I'd agree. Their Live service is fantastic. I don't know where all your shitty bitterness has come from, but I really think you need to chill and re-evaluate, personally.

[BenSkywalker]

Is there a collective lack of comprehension in this thread? If you all want to accuse me of saying something quote me. Point me out to where I said half of the things you bipeds are claiming I did. I have not edited my post- quote me saying the things that are close to what you are claiming. I have neither been vulgar towards anyone nor have I called anyone anything- I have stated what impression some of your comments have given me and that is all. I apologize for not being ten nor an apologist for anyone- it seems there are plenty of those people.

I replied that Zuma took 1 min and 14 seconds and that you should check your connection speed or your watch, because even 3 minutes is quicker than a trip to the store.

I haven't DLd Zuma so I can't tell you how long it took me- what do you want me to say? I would rather stop by a store and pick up a game then waste time with my console locked up DLing a file. Those are points of fact, exactly what is it you want me to change? You want me to jump on the 360 apologist bandwagon? Not going to happen.

Tell your ego to take a rest and at least concede a tiny bit on a single response. The collective responsives could not have been so lame as to not find one point, you were off base on...

Try rereading them. I posted my experiences- which noone seems to find out of line with the exception that those who didn't DL things during the peak of E3 didn't see how badly the system folded- others did though- and the rest is my perspective on it. Your problem in assuming that others are going to point out a flaw in my discussion revolves around the fact that something must be wrong with my setup- when you can see others having the same issues- or that I should apologize for MS for what they haven't done properly. The focus of your comment seems to be that I should change reality.

Send an email to Sony and tell them not to try and match it

There is no way they should try and match Live, that would be absurd. Obviously MS isn't happy where Live is and they know they need to change almost everything- the upcoming updates demonstrate that quite nicely. Why don't you email MS and tell them not to bother fixing all of the things that are wrong with their current service? Since you don't seem to be thinking these are issues tell MS how happy you are with things the way they are. Tell them how thrilled you are and that you don't want to see the improvements made.

In reality the reason we are seeing these things done is because of people like me- certainly not the apologists.

No amount of me telling you, I don't experience the problems you claim you do is going to matter.

Your console doesn't become unuseable when you are DLing something? Is that what you are saying? You didn't try and DL the Halo3 trailer when it came out- so all of us that did and had the same experience must be wrong. You haven't had a hardware failure, half the people currently involved in this discussion have. What exactly is it that you are saying I experience that you don't?

Go for it, but if you dislike your 360 so much, you should sell it

I own every viable gaming system. If the 360's release schedule dries up real fast then I will sell it- that isn't going to happen. I do think that the original XBox was far superior in relative terms to the 360- hands down. You can check my old posts on the subject, most people thought me a MS fanboi at the time.

I'd like you to produce a "rant" on the things you love about a 360, because your rant on why Live is horrible seemed very one sided.

What is there to right now? Loud, hot, unreliable and with an extremely weak software lineup. The controller is relatively comfortable, though they did the same stupid thing with their secondary shoulder buttons that Nin did with their Z trigger on the Cube. You talk in the abstract about how much you like the console- tell me why.

24 milliion downloads and a virtual (I say virtual, because you may not be in that group) consenus, that Live is the best console based online service, a tremendous advance for the industry and a serious "advantage' for Microsoft would appear disagree with your take.

Considering MS is releasing shortly or plans to release fixes for most of what I'm b!tching about tells me that they agree with me. If I need to pick one group to have listen to me about what is wrong with a product I would rather it be MS then their apologists.

[torrefaction]

Considering MS is releasing shortly or plans to release fixes for most of what I'm b!tching about tells me that they agree with me. If I need to pick one group to have listen to me about what is wrong with a product I would rather it be MS then their apologists.

Did anyone here say we didn't agree that the downloading thing is a problem? No. Didn't anyone say you said anything vulgar? No.

What did we say? That coming on a thread, bitching about how the 360 is a piece of shit (And, I believe you said that was being kind), when their coming out with a fix for the problem you're talking about, well that's just whiny, stupid, and idiotic. And what the hell? Are you at home playing games ALL DAY LONG, and you can't download something when you leave? Holy crap.

[Jack B]

There is no way they should try and match Live, that would be absurd. Obviously MS isn't happy where Live is and they know they need to change almost everything.

Microsoft isn't happy with Live...????? They know (as if you have some special powers that KNOW what Microsoft is thinking) they need to change almost everything....?????

Here's an opinion for you. I'll tell you something I KNOW (given your mind reading abilities, I'll take the same liberty).

You are a egotistical ass.

But then you probably already KNOW that... :D

[BenSkywalker]

Microsoft isn't happy with Live...????? They know (as if you have some special powers that KNOW what Microsoft is thinking) they need to change almost everything....?????

Have you checked out everything the update involves? What aren't they changing in terms of interface? How much functionality are they leaving untouched? How many companies do you know that spend their resources on overhauling something that is just right? How many issues have I brought up that MS is not fixing? You tell me. Since Live is implied to be so exceptional- you must be distraught over everything they are changing.

That coming on a thread, bitching about how the 360 is a piece of shit (And, I believe you said that was being kind), when their coming out with a fix for the problem you're talking about, well that's just whiny, stupid, and idiotic.

As opposed to the brilliance of you that are denying the problem exists. If I was wrong- why would MS be fixing it? If you were right- why would MS be destroying it? Considering that everything I am complaining about has had considerable resources devoted to it by MS and is supposedly being addressed between the upcoming release and the fall one, how is it that you are thinking what I am saying is wrong?

Here's an opinion for you. I'll tell you something I KNOW (given your mind reading abilities, I'll take the same liberty).

You are a egotistical ass.

I placed conditionals on my comments directed as to what impression your posts give when discussing your thought pattern. By the way- it's 'an egotistical ass' not 'a'.

In the end, I have MS on my side agreeing with me. You all have each other. I'm the illogical one though..... keep thinking that.

[Jack B]

Is there a collective lack of comprehension in this thread?

No,it's not us, it's you.

If you all want to accuse me of saying something quote me. Point me out to where I said half of the things you bipeds are claiming I did.

We already did, but I'll do it again.

I have stated what impression some of your comments have given me and that is all. I apologize for not being ten nor an apologist for anyone- it seems there are plenty of those people.

That's the closest you can come to an apology and funny, but it wasn't.

I haven't DLd Zuma so I can't tell you how long it took me- what do you want me to say?

I want you to read the fucking post!!!! Zuma is an arcade title. Download one. Time it. They don't take long. Certainly less time than going to a store. Give me a fucking break. You are such an asshole.

I would rather stop by a store and pick up a game then waste time with my console locked up DLing a file. Those are points of fact, exactly what is it you want me to change? You want me to jump on the 360 apologist bandwagon? Not going to happen.

I have no problem with you saying you'd "rather" go to a store. But saying that it takes too long to download an XBL title is ludricris. It's not broken. I repeat. It's not broken. Check with technical support if it takes you so long to download.

Try rereading them. I posted my experiences- which noone seems to find out of line with the exception that those who didn't DL things during the peak of E3 didn't see how badly the system folded- others did though- and the rest is my perspective on it. Your problem in assuming that others are going to point out a flaw in my discussion revolves around the fact that something must be wrong with my setup- when you can see others having the same issues- or that I should apologize for MS for what they haven't done properly. The focus of your comment seems to be that I should change reality.

You extrapolate your own personal 360 problems to EVERYONE IN THE FUCKING UNIVERSE DURING E3 and call us all Microsoft apologists. 95% of the rest of the 360 users loved the fact that Microsoft did that and you say the whole fucking Live system is broken because it was slower during E3.

There is no way they should try and match Live, that would be absurd. Obviously MS isn't happy where Live is and they know they need to change almost everything- the upcoming updates demonstrate that quite nicely.

No it doesn't. Dammit. Software programs are constantly being improved. Just because they add a feature, doesn't mean it should have been FIXED at launch. Do you work for SONY???? It's a free update, that they plan on having every six months for Live. You complain if they do and update, and will complain if they don't.

Check with 99% of all complex (I say complex, so you don't use Pong as an example) applications from Microsoft, Oracle, IBM, SAP, Borland, Symantec, etc, etc,. Check their support sites and see if you don't see updates. That's the way it works in the software business. Consoles today are a hell of lot more complex than they were in the N64 days.

In reality the reason we are seeing these things done is because of people like me- certainly not the apologists. People like you embarrase me to be a fan of gaming. I like games, you sound like an anal retentive chronic malcontent.

Your console doesn't become unuseable when you are DLing something? Is that what you are saying? You didn't try and DL the Halo3 trailer when it came out- so all of us that did and had the same experience must be wrong.


I watched on Gamespot, then downloaded it later that day. You're going to point to probably the peak day in the history of live and the number one downloaded video and then use that to beat up on Live? This is rediculous.

I downloaded Halo 3 and every single game video, the demos, every behind the scenes video and about 1/3 of the movie trailers that week.

Yeah, I could have used the new download patch, but I posted on EvilAvatar or surfed the web ect, while they downloaded.

You haven't had a hardware failure, half the people currently involved in this discussion have. What exactly is it that you are saying I experience that you don't?

I have not disputed your claims. I have said more than once. You have a problem with your connection or 360. And if you're definition of having a download stop or having the 360 lockup at least once, then yes you are correct. But don't use that to say the 360 and Live is unusable. It's not the norm, and having a freeze once every couple of weeks is no big deal in the big picture. I use it probably for 20 hours a week. IE, Netscape, Firefox crash a hell of lot more than that. Deal with it.

I own every viable gaming system. If the 360's release schedule dries up real fast then I will sell it-

Please do. Give it someone who will appreciate it.


that isn't going to happen. I do think that the original XBox was far superior in relative terms to the 360- hands down. You can check my old posts on the subject, most people thought me a MS fanboi at the time.

Good for your opinion. I had one, and I believe the 360 and 360 Live are huge improvements. Oh, but then according to you, we should probably use the old Xbox Live, because the glory days were so much better. Or maybe the PS2 Live. Yeah, that was great.

What is there to right now? Loud, hot, unreliable and with an extremely weak software lineup.

Finally, something I can agree with. Yes, it's loud and yes it's hot. I haven't had any hardware problems, but I've heard it seems like there have been a lot who have. It also, seems that those who have are dying to get it back as they enjoy their experience, unlike you.

The controller is relatively comfortable, though they did the same stupid thing with their secondary shoulder buttons that Nin did with their Z trigger on the Cube.

Don't agree. I think it's the best 1st party console controller available today.

You talk in the abstract about how much you like the console- tell me why.

Abstract. What a joke. Read my or others on EvilAvatar to find many posts on the subject.

Live 360 downloads of demos, videos, previews, XBL Arcade. 720p/5.1. Achievements, friends lists, Marketplace, Plugging in my ipod, wireless USB KB support,Oblivion, GRAW, Fight Night, Moto GP 06 (demo), XBL Chat and voice in multiplayer. Online Co-op. Leaderboards. Project Gotham and Project Gotham's Live Tournament/Gotham TV, Geometry Wars, PDZ (online).

I'm looking forward to the Camera, Live Anywhere, Wireless Force Feedback Wheel, (oh maybe the 360 was broken because they shouldn't have shipped without a camera) Gears of War, Mass Effect, and I'm of not being abstract.

Considering MS is releasing shortly or plans to release fixes for most of what I'm b!tching about tells me that they agree with me.

Wow! What an ego. Let's get Peter Moore to read your post and see if he agrees with you. What planet do you live on?

[/quote]If I need to pick one group to have listen to me about what is wrong with a product I would rather it be MS then their apologists.[/QUOTE]

We're not their apologists. Quit lumping us into a category using your non existant mind reading abilities.

[Jack B]

As opposed to the brilliance of you that are denying the problem exists. If I was wrong- why would MS be fixing it? If you were right- why would MS be destroying it? Considering that everything I am complaining about has had considerable resources devoted to it by MS and is supposedly being addressed between the upcoming release and the fall one, how is it that you are thinking what I am saying is wrong?

Then Nintendo agrees that their controller for the Gamecube was broken, because they changed it and made the Wii controllers.

Then every software company that comes out with a new version of their UI agrees with you, that if they change something it was broken....

Gee, we've sold X million of these, but we could improve it. Nah, then BenSkywalker would make us agree our product was broken.

It's called "IMPROVING" something. That's what happens. Every version of a new game typically changes something that they think could be made better. It doesn't mean they'd agree it was broken.

I work in Enterprise Software. We come out with patches and updates on a regular basis. We've been in business for over 30 years. A product life cycle is about 5 to 15 years in our space.

We have dot versions every 6 months an major version upgrades every 2 years. We don't call it Final Fantasy XXVVIII or something like that, it's just a continual evolution of the product, it's functionality and UI.

It's not fucking broken! It's getting better. Our market valuation is in the billions. That's the way it works. It's time for you to leave the N64, 3D0 console mindset. People want a sophisticated worldwide connected online environment. It's not as simple as you want to believe.

It's more of a hybrid today than ever before. I for one, am glad Microsoft is pushing the edge. Go play your 3D0. :D

[BenSkywalker]

Ask Peter Moore why they are dropping tens of millions in converting the build process on Xenos and Xenon to 65nm if they are happy with the heat issue.

Ask Peter Moore if he thinks that Live doesn't need large scale changes and improvemehnts.

Ask Peter Moore if it was a good idea to cipple the system when DLing a file.

Ask Peter Moore if their current software lineup is indicative of what the 360 is going to offer.

He may not like the way I say it, but it is the truth.

Why you like your 360- you listed two exclusive titles that are released to date(PGR3/PD0)- those are system sellers for you? If they are all the power to you- Forza2 is my killer app for driving on the 360 but I know that PGR is far more popular. The rest of the gaming related stuff outside of achievements and demos/arcade is already available on other systems. iPod support is cool- if you aren't running Windows I guess. I can pull up my 100GBs worth of WMA-L audio instead of my crappy mp3 iPod tunes. I can understand what you are saying you like about the 360, but where it matters most to me- the games- there isn't anything that is both exclusive and compelling right now to me. I own- FC:I, TR:L, ES:IV, B:R, CoD2, PGR3, The Outfit, FN:R3 and Kameo. In all honesty I think Kameo is the best platform exclusive right now, but it suffers too much of the typical Rare 'collect a million things' syndrome. I buy games largely because I can't stand waiting for demos to DL. I have money, I don't have a lot of free time most days.

People want a sophisticated worldwide connected online environment.

The market data does not support that in the console market yet. Don't get me wrong, I want to be able to experience a decent connected environment on a console(haven't come close yet)- but reality is that by a staggering margin single player off line games dominate the console market. That is the marketplace reality. The talking heads have been talking about how that is going the change 'within a year' since the Saturn. It gets old.

As far as major UI overhauls- we aren't talking about improving the visual appeal- it is strictly making it reach a reasonable level of usability. Win95 was horribly broken in beta if you recall(you must have been in on the MSDN beta test for that I assume). They had no Start button and no taskbar. They almost shipped it like that. It was horribly broken and failed usability tests- so they fixed it. Live just got shipped before it was fully sorted.

[Jack B]

I placed conditionals on my comments directed as to what impression your posts give when discussing your thought pattern. By the way- it's 'an egotistical ass' not 'a'.

Good, we agree on something. You are "an" egotistical ass.

In the end, I have MS on my side agreeing with me. You all have each other. I'm the illogical one though..... keep thinking that.

No, you fucking don't have MS agreeing with you. You have no idea who agrees with you do you??? :D

[BenSkywalker]

No, you fucking don't have MS agreeing with you.

Point out a single issue that I brought up that they aren't fixing.

[Jack B]

Ask Peter Moore why they are dropping tens of millions in converting the build process on Xenos and Xenon to 65nm if they are happy with the heat issue.

Lower cost and heat. Look for smaller in the future. It's called progress.

Why you like your 360- you listed two exclusive titles that are released to date(PGR3/PD0)- those are system sellers for you?

You asked me to not be "abstract" about what "I" liked about the 360. I listed about 20 things and you picked out the lack of System Sellers in my list.

This is a joke right?

You're officially off my Xmas list.

[Jack B]

Point out a single issue that I brought up that they aren't fixing.

Modifying a UI or adding new functionality, does not mean Microsoft "agrees" with your post.

How big an ego do you have anyway? Can it be measured by earthly means? :D

[torrefaction]

Point out a single issue that I brought up that they aren't fixing.

This is complete, dumbass bullshit. Every single console in history goes through revisions after their launch. The PS2 laser debacle ring a fucking bell? And you keep missing the point. The lack of background downloads suck, but a.) It wasn't broken, it just wasn't what you wanted.
B.)THEY"RE FIXING THE DAMN THING.

Your on here, consistently saying the 360 is shit, while they're listening to the consumer. Don't be an egotistical ass, and think your the only one that said the download functionality was crap. Go through my posts, it's there somewhere. Your not original, creative, or some sort of moving force for the industry. I can't ask Peter Moore things, because I don't know him, and neither do you, dumbass. I'll bet you money this was their first targeted release, before ANY customer complaints. This is stuff you know about due to focus groups, and using it themselves. They released a fantastic console, with a few issues. They are working those out.

It's not because of you, and your bitching about them fixing the problems is childish. I hope you choke on your ego.

[Jack B]

Posts by BenSkywalker, Lover of life, lover of games, just all around satisfied gamer.

BenSkywalker on the PSP -
I use mine every day to game with- but certainly nothing in the pathetic PSP lineup.

Ahh, more fun with gaming.

BenSkywalker on UMD
I had figured that this happening was an obvious eventuallity- and I think that Sony was expecting it. The PSP is not and never was going after the DS or GBA- it was aimed squarely at the iPod and in that aspect I think they are doing extremely well with it. UMD movies dominate the PSP shelf space in every store in my area that has anything PSP

Yes, and the good thing is you can now get used UMD's really cheap. :D

BenSkywalker on Blu-Ray
Look at it from any logical POV- you know Blu-Ray is going to have an installed base of over 50 million world wide within a few years give or take. HD-DVD MAY have an actual player out by that time. MS already killed any chance HD-DVD had.

Based upon your success with the UMD prediction, I'm not yet convinced you nailed this one either. Oh, and HD-DVD players already shipped just slightly before Blu-Ray hit 50 million. Opps. :D

BenSkywalker on the PS2 and PS One
We all know that the PS1 and PS2 were very unreliable consoles, extremely high failure rates during their lifecycles which end up inflating their installed base.

But at least you have the rock solid 3D0 to reminisce about. :D

BenSkywalker on being hyper anal :D
How many fans you have in your PC? I have eleven(XaserIII SuperTower with additional fans I added). My 360 sits on a 'podium' next to my TV by itself, nothing within close distance at all. I am hyper anal about ventilation-

I don't think anything is really good enough for you. 11 fans on your PC... Your's goes to 11. Nice. :D

I wonder if a BenSkywalker product could live up to your high standards? Oh, here's a post of your bragging about your families accomplishments.

BenSkywalker on the products of his brilliance
My 10 year old can do whole number square and cube roots up to five digits off the top of his head- he has been handling basic algerbric equations since the age of four and is now getting into reasonably complex problems(working on trinomial factorization ATM). My wife is finishing her post graduate studies after which she will be working at the local College as a professor(she speaks four languages)- have I mentioned she is also a big gamer? BTW- To date only my oldest is getting grades on his report card(the new confidence building BS that took grades away from younger students is in effect in my area) and so far he has landed himself one B+, everything else has been straight A's.

If I were Sony, like the government pays farmers not to grow certain crops, I'd pay you "NOT" to buy a PS3.

You'll undoubtably find fault with the PS3 no matter what it does and explain to everyone on this forum how any idiot (or someone as brilliant as you or your 10 year old) could design a better product.

Remind me not to invite you to my next Poker party. We like to laugh a lot and have fun. :D

My XBL gamertag is Jack B, what's yours?

[ElPresidente]

Thank you Ben for turning this thread into one of the most amusing threads I've read on these forums since I first started reading them a couple of years ago.

Never have I seen one's own attempts at critical thought so wonderously foiled by their own ego before. You are one grade A piece of forum funny.

[torrefaction]

Posts by BenSkywalker, Lover of life, lover of games, just all around satisfied gamer.

You're my idol.

You're funny as hell, AND you did research to totally burn a fool!

[Kamalot]

My 10 year old can do whole number square and cube roots up to five digits off the top of his head- he has been handling basic algerbric equations since the age of four and is now getting into reasonably complex problems(working on trinomial factorization ATM). My wife is finishing her post graduate studies after which she will be working at the local College as a professor(she speaks four languages)- have I mentioned she is also a big gamer? BTW- To date only my oldest is getting grades on his report card(the new confidence building BS that took grades away from younger students is in effect in my area) and so far he has landed himself one B+, everything else has been straight A's.
Lack of common sense...priceless

Didn't Ben Skywalker end up a charred husk on a planet farthest from the bright spot in the universe, or was that Uncle Owen?

[BenSkywalker]

When have I stated that anyone is changing anything due to what I have stated?

When have I stated that anyone should see things the way that I do?

I bring up clearly obvious issues with the 360. These issues are so self evident that they are all on MS's 'to fix' list. Never have I approached claiming that was because of anything that I said. For that matter- with the exception of the self proclaimed networking expert trying to deny the falling down of Live when the Halo 3 trailer launched- noone in this thread has so much as attempted to deny any of the problems I have been having are out of the ordinary(scratch that, for some reason my HD appears to be missing a bit more space). How exactly does that add up to egotistical? I apologize for not being the type to resort to vulgarity in every post and hurling personal insults around, I have long since passed the age where either of those things were particularly useful.

You'll undoubtably find fault with the PS3 no matter what it does and explain to everyone on this forum how any idiot (or someone as brilliant as you or your 10 year old) could design a better product.

When have I said any such thing about the 360? I said anyone would have noticed the shortcoming of the UI and limitations of Live, oddly enough everyone of you did without issue. Perhaps it is your own ego that is getting in the way of proper analyzation? Do you think that you are so much better then everyone else that you are the only one enlightened enough to see these flaws? It is certainly not by some divine influence that I have.

Based upon your success with the UMD prediction, I'm not yet convinced you nailed this one either.

I made no prediction on the UMD market in the post you quoted- I was pointing out the market reality which was the case at the time. At this point, the PSP is failing in pretty much all aspects on global basis. At the point that I wrote that comment I was talking about the focus being on it as a media device which it certainly was.

Oh, and HD-DVD players already shipped just slightly before Blu-Ray hit 50 million.

If you would have provided a link with that post I thought it was quite clear that it was tongue in cheek.

I don't think anything is really good enough for you. 11 fans on your PC... Your's goes to 11.

That post was in replay to someone who was claiming I just wasn't getting enough airflow to avoid crashing. The XIII case that I use has seven fans empty without PSU- I was simply pointing out that ventilation is something that I tend to be very careful with.

I can't ask Peter Moore things, because I don't know him, and neither do you, dumbass.

I did not bring up Peter Moore- nor did I ever remotely hint at the fact that my problems were remotely unique. In fact I REPEATEDLY AND EXPLICITLY stated that EVERYONE noticed the same things which is WHY MICROSOFT WAS FIXING IT. Why don't you check your own ego at the door and read what I am saying. My entire point was that everyone noticed these things- that indicates by default that I am lumping myself together with everyone else who owns a 360. You want to talk to the self absorbed one then go back and find out who brought up Moore. I posed my questions to that person to ask him- never once did I claim I knew him at all.

Overall it demonstrates the strength of your people's counterpoints when you need rely on personal attacks and can not take issue with the points I am making. Why don't you stop trying to prove something to yourselves and think about what I am saying for a minute. If you like the way I word it or not is one thing, what I have failed to see demonstrated by any of you is what issue I am bringing up that does not exist. I say that not as an indicator of my capabilities- in fact I think that any inbred retarded monkey could point out the flaws that I have been pointing out. I will not apologize for ANY company(my apologies to Jack for his wasted time trying to prove I am some platform loyalist).

[BenSkywalker]

I forgot to touch on this point-

You asked me to not be "abstract" about what "I" liked about the 360. I listed about 20 things and you picked out the lack of System Sellers in my list.

This is a joke right?

Not at all. I was trying to point out to you why your interpetation of the 360 is quite different then mine. I want a gaming platform. I was not criticizing your choices at all(which I pointed out) but just giving you my perspective. I had previously told you what I was looking for in a system- I asked what you liked about the 360 and using your list I was relating that to what I am looking for in a system so you could see my perspective. I have not criticized your reasoning for why you like your 360 at all nor come remotely close to that, I do not try and force my own litmus test on others. I was simply attempting to demonstrate why I see the 360 as such an overall weak gaming platform at this point in time. The 3DO at a comparable point in its' life cycle had the singular arcade perfect port of StreetFighter II going for it- the 360 has nothing comparable. That is why I made the comparison that I did. There are no system sellers. I don't think that is bad business by MS in the least, much as I don't see Sony's pricing to be bad business either. In fact, I think they are both rather smart in that regard from a business perspective. Wait to move your killer apps and larger market price point until you get through the initial rush of early adopters who know they are going to have to tollerate additional BS due to it being a new platform. That does not change the fact that I don't want to deal with the BS at all.

This is not to say that the 360 doesn't have any games worth playing by any means, Oblivion is absolutely stellar and one I have had no issue paying ~$80 for(between the CE and micro transactions) nor will I have any issues dropping a big chunk on the expansion packs when they come. $100 would be a reasonable price for such a stellar title- but that same title is also available on the PC and what's more can be run at higher settings if your rig has enough juice.

I am not looking for a media hub, my PC handles that just fine- I want a gaming platform. When I judge a gaming platform I do so on that basis. As of now, the 360 is extremely weak in that regard based on what I am looking for. Now, there is a lot on the horizon that I am really looking forward to on the system(Forza2, 99Nights, GoW etc) but right now it is lacking in killer apps which is a major issue for me.

[Chimp]

Ben, you used the (non)word "noone." You lose the interwebs.

[Jack B]

I forgot to touch on this point-



Not at all. I was trying to point out to you why your interpetation of the 360 is quite different then mine. I want a gaming platform. I was not criticizing your choices at all(which I pointed out) but just giving you my perspective. I had previously told you what I was looking for in a system- I asked what you liked about the 360 and using your list I was relating that to what I am looking for in a system so you could see my perspective. I have not criticized your reasoning for why you like your 360 at all nor come remotely close to that, I do not try and force my own litmus test on others. I was simply attempting to demonstrate why I see the 360 as such an overall weak gaming platform at this point in time. The 3DO at a comparable point in its' life cycle had the singular arcade perfect port of StreetFighter II going for it- the 360 has nothing comparable. That is why I made the comparison that I did. There are no system sellers. I don't think that is bad business by MS in the least, much as I don't see Sony's pricing to be bad business either. In fact, I think they are both rather smart in that regard from a business perspective. Wait to move your killer apps and larger market price point until you get through the initial rush of early adopters who know they are going to have to tollerate additional BS due to it being a new platform. That does not change the fact that I don't want to deal with the BS at all.

This is not to say that the 360 doesn't have any games worth playing by any means, Oblivion is absolutely stellar and one I have had no issue paying ~$80 for(between the CE and micro transactions) nor will I have any issues dropping a big chunk on the expansion packs when they come. $100 would be a reasonable price for such a stellar title- but that same title is also available on the PC and what's more can be run at higher settings if your rig has enough juice.

I am not looking for a media hub, my PC handles that just fine- I want a gaming platform. When I judge a gaming platform I do so on that basis. As of now, the 360 is extremely weak in that regard based on what I am looking for. Now, there is a lot on the horizon that I am really looking forward to on the system(Forza2, 99Nights, GoW etc) but right now it is lacking in killer apps which is a major issue for me.

BenSkywalker,

Reading your posts, I wonder if Psychotherapy has advanced far enough in the 21st Century to help you...?

I see post after post where myself and others have replied to your post(s)and yet none of has come up with one point, where you would say, "you bring up a good point....". Nothing, zip, nada, we are all 100% wrong....

I'm done trying to communicate with you. How about how Al Swearingen might respond to your posts...

Al Swearingen, "Here's my counter offer to your counter offer.... Go fuck yourself!". :D

Additionally, if there was a contest for "Who should Ben Skywalker play in his first movie..., I would vote for Vizzini in Princess Bride...

Westley: You've made your decision, then?
Vizzini (Ben Skywalker): Not remotely! Because iocaine comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.
Westley: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
Vizzini (Ben Skywalker): Wait till I get going!

[Kamalot]

Westley: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
Vizzini (Ben Skywalker): Wait till I get going!

L
M
A
O
!!
:D

[ElPresidente]

Princess Bride references FTW. :P

[Pumped'Up]

Very good. Now PLEASE bring out some good games :(

[BenSkywalker]

I see post after post where myself and others have replied to your post(s)and yet none of has come up with one point, where you would say, "you bring up a good point....".

Your only discourse has been of the terminology I used. You have all agreed to the problems I have brought up- how exactly am I supposed to talk about you bringing up a good point? Perhaps I should resort to personal attacks and vulgarity to make my comment more familiar.... is that what you would consider a good point?

[Major Dan]

Slightly off topic: You see this same kind of discussion on any thing it seems, politics, religion, death penalty etc. It amazes me how two people, or more accurately two sides can not see what the other is saying so completely. It is strange, it is like America, lo the world, has forgot how to compromise and actually that kind of scares me.

Back on topic: Ben I think what most people are saying is they are happy with the overall working of Live and recognize it needs improvement and are even HAPPY the MS has chosen to improve it, for free no less. Yes there are some short comings, but there are short comings in just about everything, sometimes you have to look hard, and sometimes you don't but they are there. You happen to see them as critical flaws that should have been squashed before they even released the console, and that my friend is what we call "mission creep" and that is the downfall of many a project. You have to launch something at some point, or field it in our case, or the project ends up in develepment limbo and the budget increases and the implementation keeps pushing to the right.

MS wanted something out early, they picked their functionality, games and hardware and stuck with it and got it out. Thanks to the miracle that is XBLive, they are able to improve their creation over time and very easy on us. What is wrong with that. We do that in the AF, we call them Block upgrades on Aircraft. Hell the F-16 is upto atleast block E. As time marches on so does tech, and you want to keep your product viable, thus we get a sweet upgrade soon from MS. I can't wait to see how the Sony HUB will work and what sweetness we will get from MS. Competition is good my friend, it is GOOD.

[Kefkataran]

Major Dan, that was a damned good post summing up both sides. Well-reasoned and all. Thanks for that.

[Jack B]

Dan,

I'll second Kefkataran's comment! Someone has to get the last word in and I'd just as soon it be you. Nicely done.

[Banacek]

Major Dan, that was a damned good post summing up both sides. Well-reasoned and all. Thanks for that.

What? My post summed up both sides even better than his.

[Jack B]

What? My post summed up both sides even better than his.

Banacek, I'd give the award for best "What did we learn from this thread" post to Major Dan. You were the runaway winner for the "Best use of Queen lyrics in this thread"... :D

In fact, that may have been the "Best use of Queen lyrics" in any post this year on EvilAvatar.com. I'll be looking forward to dusting off my tux for the annual EvilAvatar Awards banquet.

Actually, we might have quite a few interesting categories...

And the nominees for Best Troll are............
And the nominees for Best Fanboy of the "Blank" console are.....
And the nominees for the most valuable thread of the year are....

The moderators could decide on the categories and could setup a few polls... Winners get a "blank".

[Banacek]

Banacek, I'd give the award for best "What did we learn from this thread" post to Major Dan. You were the runaway winner for the "Best use of Queen lyrics in this thread"... :D

In fact, that may have been the "Best use of Queen lyrics" in any post this year on EvilAvatar.com. I'll be looking forward to dusting off my tux for the annual EvilAvatar Awards banquet..

haha, people learned something from this thread? :)