Half-Life 2 Episode 2 Given Date; Episode 3 Announced

[Kefkataran]

Complementing the news that Half-Life 2: Episode 1 has gone gold, Next Generation brings the news about Episodes 2 and 3 (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3090&Itemid=2):

The developer has announced that the second expansion to the popular first-person shooter will be released at the end of 2006 with a third and final part completing the trilogy by Christmas of 2007.

So is that it, and then they start work on Half-Life 3? Or is more episodic content a possibility of the first episodes do well? And just how much of the Half-Life mythology's mysteries will be answered when this trilogy is up? According to the most recent issue of PC Gamer where they got to play through the whole of Episode One, not much is revealed in it...

[drdweezle]

5 hours of gameplay for $20? No thanks.

[Varsity]

No to five hours of focused, tightly choreographed Half-Life for the same price as a game in the bargain bin? Your loss pal.

Episode 4 will still be HL, but is being developed by an external house (possibly Turtle Rock) and will have a different story and possibly even different gameplay.

Also, it has been heavily implied that Episodes 2 and onward will run the next-gen Source renderer.

[Taco]

5 hours of gameplay for $20? No thanks.

When did this become a bad thing. Most games give you 8-10 hours for $50-$60.

[Kefkataran]

5 hours of gameplay for $20? No thanks.

As opposed to the norm of 8-10 hours for 50-60 bucks? What are you talking about?


Episode 4 will still be HL, but is being developed by an external house (possibly Turtle Rock) and will have a different story and possibly even different gameplay.

Interesting. Mind linking to back up?

Also, it has been heavily implied that Episodes 2 and onward will run the next-gen Source renderer.

Hadn't heard this either, but consider me curious.

[Paranoia]

I'll buy Team Fortress Source alone for $20.

[Dabombpizza]

I'm positive that it will be 5 quality hours and not cut and paste. I'll probrably buy it.

[Kefkataran]

Taco: Great minds think alike, obviously. :)

Are they doing a Team Fortress Source? Holy shit, I'd get that so bad.

[Borys]

When did this become a bad thing. Most games give you 8-10 hours for $50-$60.

Baldur's Gate 2: 80 hours for $50
Oblivion: 50 hours for $50
Final Fantasy <RANDOM_NUMBER>: 100 hours for $50
etc.

I like my games long, thank you very much!

[Citizen Philip]

That's a relatively tight schedule, but it's too early to be critical. If these are 5 hours each, offering a highly polished experience with the additional commentary as well. I think it could be worth while. I preordered EPSD1 a month back, very curious about the experience it will offer.

Max Payne 2 was a great film-noir/love story FPS.. that was around 5 hours long.. and about $60.

[Varsity]

Interesting. Mind linking to back up?It's from PCG US. I made a post about it (http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=103706) at the time on another forum.

Hadn't heard this either, but consider me curious.It's from an interview with Doug Lombardi (http://www.halflife2.net/2006/04/doug-lombardi-qa/):Source is bringing next generation technolgy to the table now, and adding new features constantly. The introduction of HDR and Commentary in Lost Coast is one example. The introduction of Film Grain in DoD: Source is another. When we start discussing Episode Two, …Taken in the context of the announced next-gen version of the engine, it's hard to draw any other conclusion. Presumably it would retain the scalability of HL2, so that people don't get excluded.

Baldur's Gate 2: 80 hours for $50
Oblivion: 50 hours for $50
Final Fantasy <RANDOM_NUMBER>: 100 hours for $50
etc.
First person to PM me with the obvious mistake here WINS precisely nothing.

[Paranoia]

When did this become a bad thing. Most games give you 8-10 hours for $50-$60.

At least some of those games had multiplayer for good replay value.

[Varsity]

HL2 Deathmatch and HL Deathmatch Source are bundled with Ep1.

[Taco]

At least some of those games had multiplayer for good replay value.

Still a minority.

[Taco]

Baldur's Gate 2: 80 hours for $50
Oblivion: 50 hours for $50
Final Fantasy <RANDOM_NUMBER>: 100 hours for $50
etc.

I like my games long, thank you very much!

I said most for a reason. BG2 is from a different time as well. Nearly all games have shortened as graphics have gotten better.

[Citizen Philip]

I said most for a reason. BG2 is from a different time as well. Nearly all games have shortened as graphics have gotten better.

Well.. BG2 was on the Infinity Engine which was 'Old Hat' by the time.. wasn't it the last Infinity Engine game? BG1, IWD1 & 2, PS: T, they were all Infinity.

[Dr Quincy]

Episodic content finally makes game replayability a viable thing for me. I know many dedicated gamers will replay their favorite 100 hour Final Fantasy over and over and get the absolute most from it, but I just don't have the time. Games released in five hour chunks at a knock down price means I'll be able to get the most from the game by the time the next installment arrives a few months along. Especially with little extras like built in commentary. Which suits me.

Also I very much doubt we'll ever see a single game called Half-life 3.

[Taco]

Well.. BG2 was on the Infinity Engine which was 'Old Hat' by the time.. wasn't it the last Infinity Engine game? BG1, IWD1 & 2, PS: T, they were all Infinity.

I think IWD2 came out last.

Also I very much doubt we'll ever see a single game called Half-life 3.

I wouldn't to surprised if we saw HL3 in order to pimp and hype ground breaking new technology, whether it's Source, Steam or something else.

[Zurik]

People keep referring to $60 for average 8-10 hours of gameplay. What games are like this exactly? I haven't paid that much for a game of that length in a long while.

[Taco]

I'm going by what I've read the prices on next gen console games are when I say 50-60. Since I don't buy console games I admit I don't have hands on experience :).

[Paranoia]

Still a minority.

The Sims, Battlefield series, Unreal Tournament Series, WarCraft 3, Half-Life 2, F.E.A.R, Ghost Recon series, Rainbow Six series ...are considered in the minority too?

[Varsity]

The Sims, Battlefield series, Unreal Tournament Series, WarCraft 3, Half-Life 2, F.E.A.R, Ghost Recon series, Rainbow Six series ...are considered in the minority too?
RTFQ. 10char

[drakkarim]

5 hours of gameplay?? that's all that's in there? wow, definitely not going to be buying that crap.

and yes, i don't spend $50 on ANY game with less then 40 hours of gameplay, and yup, the last game i bought was oblivion ($25 for pc collectors), and can't even remember what i bought before that, but you can bet it lasted for more then 30 hours...

its sad what people consider a 'bargain' these days. but as i keep saying, all the more power to the corporations if they can get away with it.

[Zawath]

As opposed to the norm of 8-10 hours for 50-60 bucks? What are you talking about?


At least those games have 100% new content. Episode 1 recycles most of the stuff from HL2 and doesn't have multiplayer.

[The_Darr]

People keep referring to $60 for average 8-10 hours of gameplay. What games are like this exactly? I haven't paid that much for a game of that length in a long while.

how bout ANY shooter released in the past couple of years (besides far cry)? F.E.A.R. was finished in under 8 for me, and the MP was lackluster at best. the newer CoD was short as fuck, also. or maybe every new shooter coming out?

[Citizen Philip]

5 hours of gameplay?? that's all that's in there? wow, definitely not going to be buying that crap.

and yes, i don't spend $50 on ANY game with less then 40 hours of gameplay, and yup, the last game i bought was oblivion ($25 for pc collectors), and can't even remember what i bought before that, but you can bet it lasted for more then 30 hours...

its sad what people consider a 'bargain' these days. but as i keep saying, all the more power to the corporations if they can get away with it.

So, you are saying you don't play game at all? Because if you can only remeber buying one game, why are you posting here, since you won't buy them anyways?

[bapenguin]

I'm curious to hear if they actually made a decent game with a presented STORY this time. Not a bunch of running with physics puzzles to break up the running.

[Taco]

So, you are saying you don't play game at all? Because if you can only remeber buying one game, why are you posting here, since you won't buy them anyways?

This was my reaction. I'd hazard to guess he's stealing them and attempting to justify it.

its sad what people consider a 'bargain' these days. but as i keep saying, all the more power to the corporations if they can get away with it.

With all the money and man power going to to games, corners are certainly not getting cut(relativley speaking). You can't draw comparisons to the RIAA. It's just harder and more expensive to make games these days.

[Varsity]

At least those games have 100% new content. Episode 1 recycles most of the stuff from HL2 and doesn't have multiplayer.
The plus on that is that, now they've got the ball rolling, they are going to be coming out faster and faster.

[Kefkataran]

Baldur's Gate 2: 80 hours for $50
Oblivion: 50 hours for $50
Final Fantasy <RANDOM_NUMBER>: 100 hours for $50
etc.

I like my games long, thank you very much!

That's not most games.

I'm curious to hear if they actually made a decent game with a presented STORY this time. Not a bunch of running with physics puzzles to break up the running.

Just because the story wasn't right out in your face doesn't mean it wasn't there. Silly.

I don't get all the whining. Twenty bucks is a fine price to pay for five or six hours of solid gameplay, IF it's solid. I have no doubts that Valve will give us that much.

[drdweezle]

It's still $20 for a game featuring reused content, probably the same mindless puzzles, and as far as I have heard "no new technical features".

I look at this as an expansion pak. I never paid $20 for an expansion pak to any FPS and don't plan to here either.

I still say no thanks, as I already have CS:S which is the main reason I bought HL2 in the first place.

[Kefkataran]

It's still $20 for a game featuring reused content, probably the same mindless puzzles, and as far as I have heard "no new technical features".

You thought HL2's puzzles were mindless? You have no heart. :(

[Citizen Philip]

$20 for 5 hours is $4 per hour. That includes a commentary track, the legal ability to burn it for a backup and you've got it listed on Steam so, even if you lose it or your HD gets fragged you still have it. Free updates.

Sounds reasonable to me. I consider the episodic content to 'potentially' be the real meat and bones of the game: the developer has already pulled their hairout getting the game to launch, fixed the first round of problems or incompatabilities (sp), established story, characters. The studio can now spend their time on polishing content in a more relaxed environment: it's been released and the company is already absording the loses for development/starting to gain a profit.

Potentially is the operative word, however.

[bapenguin]

You thought HL2's puzzles were mindless? You have no heart. :(

He's right to a degree. After the first 2 or 3 physics puzzles...they were pretty much the same thing just presented differently.

Look at what the new Tomb Raider game does with it's puzzles. Sure the "block pusher" puzzle is still there but there's so much more now.

[The Continental]

He's right to a degree. After the first 2 or 3 physics puzzles...they were pretty much the same thing just presented differently.

Look at what the new Tomb Raider game does with it's puzzles. Sure the "block pusher" puzzle is still there but there's so much more now.

Tomb Raider is largely an adventure game, its focus is puzzles and exploration, hence the gunplay aspect is so lack luster. In the case of Tomb Raider, come puzzle solving time the action gets put on hold and the puzzle needs to be solved to advance. In Half-Life 2 as with most shooters, the action is the focus of the game. Yes the puzzle are admittedly easy, but they serve as nice little set pieces to segue between areas, they were never intended to be the focus.

Comparing HL2 to Tomb Raider is classic Apples to Oranges.

[Stormwatcher]

BG2 took me around 200hs. I'm 45hrs into oblivion (save-game time, there are a few lost hours too), and I'm level 9. I've played FF7 up to the last dungeon, and I got the golden chocobo, around 80hrs.

But I'm damn excited about those 5 more hours of Halflife. It's that good.

[Varsity]

He's right to a degree. After the first 2 or 3 physics puzzles...they were pretty much the same thing just presented differently.
After two or three the game ended...

[Kelegacy]

Baldur's Gate 2: 80 hours for $50
Oblivion: 50 hours for $50
Final Fantasy <RANDOM_NUMBER>: 100 hours for $50
etc.

I like my games long, thank you very much!

I already hate episodic content. In the end, after all the episodes have been released, that's an outrageous price...at least to me. This is why I'm a bit leery of the future of our hobby.

[bapenguin]

Tomb Raider is largely an adventure game, its focus is puzzles and exploration, hence the gunplay aspect is so lack luster. In the case of Tomb Raider, come puzzle solving time the action gets put on hold and the puzzle needs to be solved to advance. In Half-Life 2 as with most shooters, the action is the focus of the game. Yes the puzzle are admittedly easy, but they serve as nice little set pieces to segue between areas, they were never intended to be the focus.

Comparing HL2 to Tomb Raider is classic Apples to Oranges.

I'm not comparing the games directly. I'm merely presenting how a game can go outside the box and present puzzles that are of variety. Something I thought Half-Life 2 lacked.

[Citizen Philip]

I already hate episodic content. In the end, after all the episodes have been released, that's an outrageous price...at least to me. This is why I'm a bit leery of the future of our hobby.

If 1 episode = 5 hours at $20. 3 episodes should equal one full game: 15 hours @ $60.

Well.. I think so.

[Demize99]

If 1 episode = 5 hours at $20. 3 episodes should equal one full game: 15 hours @ $60.

Well.. I think so.

Someone's done their math homework! This is why I like episodic content, plus I'm alot more likely to drop 20$ 3 times than 60$ once. I know its the same amount, even for the same amount of gameplay, but its over the course of multiple paychecks, which makes a big difference.

[EvoG]

If 1 episode = 5 hours at $20. 3 episodes should equal one full game: 15 hours @ $60.

Well.. I think so.

Hehe, I too am rather puzzled by the lack of basic math skills, not just here but everywhere people bitch about episodic content.

And as far as game lengths, I'd argue 85% of the games are around 10 hours long now, at least for me. Sure I put in 65 hours into GTA SA, 112 into Oblivion and around 20 into Farcry Instincts, but these are CLEARLY exceptions to the norm.

Ah well, bring it on. We get games faster, dev's get quicker returns and can float an experience longer, always assuming quality never suffers, and it shouldn't. With the content per session being restricted to 5 - 8 hours, they have to make sure filler is kept to a minimum, so the focus on interactivity IN that compressed amount of time should actually be on the rise.

So far though, Sin wasn't the best example of all this, so I'm consider HL2 Ep1 the real litmus test here.


Cheers

[Kefkataran]

Look at what the new Tomb Raider game does with it's puzzles. Sure the "block pusher" puzzle is still there but there's so much more now.

Meh. I love the new tomb raider but most of the puzzles are just centered around exploration -- figuring out how to get from point a to point b. That kind of puzzle wouldn't flow as well in Half-Life, so it wouldn't make sense to have puzzles in the same style.


I already hate episodic content. In the end, after all the episodes have been released, that's an outrageous price...at least to me. This is why I'm a bit leery of the future of our hobby.

What Philip said... I don't think the price is much more (and in many cases, it's much less) than the per hour you're paying for most action/FPS titles. And if anything it means you have the ability to skip an episode/payment if a particular episode gets bad reviews or you decide you're uninterested.

[Kelegacy]

Eh, finish the entire game and THEN sell it to me. If we start breaking down hours of enjoyment by the dollar amount, I have a problem. Oblivion gave me over 100 hours of enjoyment (and probably will still give many more), but if they tried to sell me Oblivion for 400 dollars they could forget it. (Shit, they did. I bought a 360 for it. Point moot?)

You know what I mean. My point is still there, if you look hard enough.

[Kefkataran]

Eh, finish the entire game and THEN sell it to me. If we start breaking down hours of enjoyment by the dollar amount, I have a problem. Oblivion gave me over 100 hours of enjoyment (and probably will still give many more), but if they tried to sell me Oblivion for 400 dollars they could forget it. (Shit, they did. I bought a 360 for it. Point moot?)

You know what I mean. My point is still there, if you look hard enough.

I'm assuming the point you're looking for is that you're a luddite who's pretty consistently terrified of change? :)

I understand what you're saying, but contrary to a lot of people, I don't think this is some ridiculous insidious attempt by game makers to make more money. I think it's an attempt to try new forms of game creation and distribution, and personally I think the price works out well. And yes, you got tons of hours out of Oblivion, but I said action/FPS titles. Silly. Of course if you're uninterested in action/FPS titles, this isn't going to matter to you anyways.

[Taco]

You can't be anti-big publisher and anti-episodic content. It's really one or the other these days and the split is only going to become more defined as we move forward. Even for consoles, though that's a ways off.

[Kelegacy]

I'm assuming the point you're looking for is that you're a luddite who's pretty consistently terrified of change? :)

I understand what you're saying, but contrary to a lot of people, I don't think this is some ridiculous insidious attempt by game makers to make more money. I think it's an attempt to try new forms of game creation and distribution, and personally I think the price works out well. And yes, you got tons of hours out of Oblivion, but I said action/FPS titles. Silly. Of course if you're uninterested in action/FPS titles, this isn't going to matter to you anyways.
Wait, Oblivion wasn't a FPS? ;)

On another note, why can't FPSs be longer? Is it all the emphasis on graphics and visual flair that the game itself cannot support longer sessions? I really enjoyed Black on the Xbox, but I wish it was half again as long. I think Doom 3 (which I didn't like) and HL2 were fairly long, but the norm is short experiences. As long as RPGs don't start being released as episodes, I don't think I'll mind too much. I'm not a luddite, just a pessimist.

[EvoG]

On another note, why can't FPSs be longer? Is it all the emphasis on graphics and visual flair that the game itself cannot support longer sessions? I really enjoyed Black on the Xbox, but I wish it was half again as long. I think Doom 3 (which I didn't like) and HL2 were fairly long, but the norm is short experiences. As long as RPGs don't start being released as episodes, I don't think I'll mind too much. I'm not a luddite, just a pessimist.

This comes down to the density of interaction. FPS's tend to chew through and spit out level assets very quickly since the game is 95% gunplay. Valve uses clever layout to reuse a lot of the work invested by having you meander as you navigate in and around and above a level. Notice you rarely ever run straight through short of the vehicle sections. Games like Oblivion focus more on your per-area interaction; time spent and activities done. You burn a lot more time talking to NPC's (well listening really :p ), diddling with your characters inventory and general small-level exploration and object interaction.

Action games rely on custom real estate, thus take a LOT longer to make due to all the unique assets. Oblivion reuses all their content over and over again ad nauseum. Drop a terrain editor, some foliage placement scripts and build a handful of temple, ruin, city and castle props and you can make a large play-space, but an awful lot of repetition.

The action game relies on keeping the game continuously fresh as you fight and press forward, as thats pretty much the extent of the gameplay, while the RPG/adventure game relies on narrative density and character growth, object interaction/collection, so reuse isn't as huge a detriment to the overall experience.

In other words, if you included more hub-based gameplay to central leves, character growth and NPC interaction beyond simply listening to their monologue, but kept all the current art assets they created for the game, you could easily tack on 50% more gameplay (time-wise). Bioshock is going to be a great example of interaction density and spending more time in a play space with more gameplay variety, without having to build an inordinate amount of asset.

The equation breaks down to something such as (how fast the player moves + the area of space a level takes up + avg. time each enemy takes to kill + avg. time a player takes to solve a puzzle + avg. time spent leveling up character + avg. time spent listening to dialogue + avg. time spent sneaking in shadows, + etc....you get the idea) Factor in that the player is playing a linear game, traverses the levels and kills the enemies in X time, you take X time and divide that into how long you want the game to be (target playtime: 10 hours), and you get an idea then of how much asset you need to create to keep the experience continously fresh. None of this is black and white, but you can easily disseminate where the time is spent making these games, taking into account the increased development times of next-gen work. We'd spend barely a few days to a week on "last-gen" characters, to now an avg. of a month for next-gen, factoring in the exponential increase in texture sizes, texture counts (diffuse, spec/gloss, opac, normal, self illum, transmission, etc) and the creation of the highpoly model for the normals projection. One character is now a product of its low poly form (5 - 15k) and then its high poly brethren for detailing.

Sorry for being long winded. :)


Cheers

[Kefkataran]

On another note, why can't FPSs be longer? Is it all the emphasis on graphics and visual flair that the game itself cannot support longer sessions? I really enjoyed Black on the Xbox, but I wish it was half again as long. I think Doom 3 (which I didn't like) and HL2 were fairly long, but the norm is short experiences. As long as RPGs don't start being released as episodes, I don't think I'll mind too much. I'm not a luddite, just a pessimist.

What EvoG said. Honestly, I think the best chance we have of having "longer" FPSes is through episodic content that makes it so the gameplay isn't completely stale even though you may have already been through 20 hours. And Half-Life 2 and Doom 3 are longer FPSs, sure, but they're still only, what? 12-15 hours, tops?

Even if RPGs did start doing episodic content, I think it would be in a different way because people expect something different from RPGs. They wouldn't be able to get away with 20 bucks for 5-6 hours in that genre.

[thecrazyd]

Even if RPGs did start doing episodic content, I think it would be in a different way because people expect something different from RPGs. They wouldn't be able to get away with 20 bucks for 5-6 hours in that genre.
People have paid far more for far less content with Oblivion.

[Kefkataran]

People have paid far more for far less content with Oblivion.

Arguable. First off, I wouldn't call the Oblivion stuff episodic content, but that's just me. Definitions may vary, I suppose. But let's do a little math here, just to be fun. If you're paying 20 bucks for a 5-hour Half-Life 2 add-on, that's approximately 4 dollars per hour. If you're paying 1.89 for a new Oblivion quest that takes around two hours, that's about .95 cents an hour. (I'm assuming about two hours per new quest based on how long it took Amanda -- I haven't done them myself yet.) To compare some more, using that formula $40 dollars (two Half-Life episodes) would net you around 10 hours of FPS. $40 dollars (around 21 Oblivion modules) would get you approximately 38 hours of RPG.

Again, I still wouldn't call it episodic content, personally, but theoretically speaking you ARE getting a significant amount more than you would with an FPS add-on still.

[EvoG]

What EvoG said. Honestly, I think the best chance we have of having "longer" FPSes is through episodic content that makes it so the gameplay isn't completely stale even though you may have already been through 20 hours. And Half-Life 2 and Doom 3 are longer FPSs, sure, but they're still only, what? 12-15 hours, tops?

I'm actually more concerned with the the time-sink of development, and less that the experience gets stale, though you're absolutely right indirectly.

If you can make a snippet of your full game in 6 mos (it really does need to get down to this to make it truly viable), then you risk less if the game under performs. Compare that to making a game for 4 years, only to have it fail miserably...that kills companies quick.

I think an after effect then as you said, is that with that kind of attention to such a small chunk of play, similar to what I said two posts ago, you spend more time making the most out of what you're working on, so ideally quality goes up and the amount of play in that play space is increased...ideally. :D


Even if RPGs did start doing episodic content, I think it would be in a different way because people expect something different from RPGs. They wouldn't be able to get away with 20 bucks for 5-6 hours in that genre.

I agree...this is a tad more difficult to break up nicely, as RPG's thrive on the epic nature of their stories. Its doable, but as games like Oblivion, perhaps not as necessary as you can reuse a great deal of your world to at least complete what you started.

[Taco]

Nicely put Evog. I'm glad I deleted the post I had started on that topic :).

[EvoG]

Nicely put Evog. I'm glad I deleted the post I had started on that topic :).

Thanks Taco. :D

Though I'd be interested in anything you can add. A great deal of people still misunderstand development time, cost and how this can be a great benefit. Higher visibility online-distribution (educated consumer) and episodic content can help bring back original concepts and riskier game types, and encourage and aid smaller developers from accessing the marketplace.

[thecrazyd]

Arguable. First off, I wouldn't call the Oblivion stuff episodic content, but that's just me. Definitions may vary, I suppose. But let's do a little math here, just to be fun. If you're paying 20 bucks for a 5-hour Half-Life 2 add-on, that's approximately 4 dollars per hour. If you're paying 1.89 for a new Oblivion quest that takes around two hours, that's about .95 cents an hour. (I'm assuming about two hours per new quest based on how long it took Amanda -- I haven't done them myself yet.) To compare some more, using that formula $40 dollars (two Half-Life episodes) would net you around 10 hours of FPS. $40 dollars (around 21 Oblivion modules) would get you approximately 38 hours of RPG.

Again, I still wouldn't call it episodic content, personally, but theoretically speaking you ARE getting a significant amount more than you would with an FPS add-on still.
From what I have read, the Oblivion quests are about 15 minutes long, not two hours. Having never played them, I can't really argue it, however. Maybe it took her two hours cause they have shitty computers in Bolivia?

[Kelegacy]

What EvoG said. Honestly, I think the best chance we have of having "longer" FPSes is through episodic content that makes it so the gameplay isn't completely stale even though you may have already been through 20 hours. And Half-Life 2 and Doom 3 are longer FPSs, sure, but they're still only, what? 12-15 hours, tops?



But can't I govern my own play time so the gameplay doesn't get stale? Couldn't I play for a few hours a week instead of blazing right through it and still get a better experience than waiting months in between episode releases? And if I DO bust through the entire game in a few days, that must mean I really liked it.

I don't know. I'm still not sold on the idea and probably never will be.

[Kefkataran]

From what I have read, the Oblivion quests are about 15 minutes long, not two hours. Having never played them, I can't really argue it, however. Maybe it took her two hours cause they have shitty computers in Bolivia?

They're maybe a bit under an hour if you rush, but I can't see them taking less than that. Either way, that's just for the quest-based part. Much of the appeal of these mods is supposed to be in the other functions the stuff gives you.

I don't know. I'm still not sold on the idea and probably never will be.

And your inability to even give the idea a chance shows that you've got a problem with this that's beyond just thinking it's a bad idea. Whatever. You're missing out on the game experiences, not me. *shrug*

[Kelegacy]

And your inability to even give the idea a chance shows that you've got a problem with this that's beyond just thinking it's a bad idea. Whatever. You're missing out on the game experiences, not me. *shrug*
Nah, I'll buy it when it's all one package. Easier for me.

You know what? I don't watch Lost either. People at work, and my friends, cannot fathom that (a female friend said last weekend, "What? Lost is like a story you would write, Kenny. I can't believe you don't watch it."). It is because I hate being strung along, waiting for new episodes, being fooled by countless cliffhangers. I was going to pick up the first two seasons on DVD but apparently this last season finale made more questions than it solved.

Screw that.

[Kefkataran]

I was going to pick up the first two seasons on DVD but apparently this last season finale made more questions than it solved.


You expected them to not make more questions? :| How does that make sense if they want the show to stay compelling. That said, they made lots of great questions to end this season, but they also answered a LOT of burning questions, including stuff that's been around from day 1.

[bapenguin]

Here's a question...why are people measure this in hours?

Hypothetical question. Valve releases this killer game for 20 bucks. It's only 15 minutes long, but it's the best 15 minutes of gaming you've EVER played in your entire life. It's like a 3-some with 2 super models and you get of 15 times during it.

Does it matter that you paid 20 bucks for only 15 minutes?

[Kelegacy]

Here's a question...why are people measure this in hours?

Hypothetical question. Valve releases this killer game for 20 bucks. It's only 15 minutes long, but it's the best 15 minutes of gaming you've EVER played in your entire life. It's like a 3-some with 2 super models and you get of 15 times during it.

Does it matter that you paid 20 bucks for only 15 minutes?
I don't think you can compare a game to a menage a trois, but if I only had 15 mintues of game time for 20 bucks...no. Unless there was a crazy amount of replay time. I am still addicted to MVP 2005, on my second season with updated rosters (because exclusive licenses create lazy developers), and those games only last from 20-30 minutes for 9 innings. After that I save, leave, and I'm done. If I could keep coming back to that 15 minute game, 20 bucks is a crazy bargain. But for something I really won't play after the initial 15...no. That's not a deal for me.

And the best gaming experiences were never about brevity. I know it's hypothetical, but it's flawed. :) I am also an advocate of not measuring dollar amount by hours played, though I'm also a critic of incredibly short games costing 60 bucks. I'm a hypocrite. But this is also one reason I'm moving farther and farther away from JRPGs with random battles. The game can be 80 hours long, but if 60 of that is spent in some turn-based battle engine, that's a helluva lot of filler. I have better things to do with my time these days than put up with tedious games. But I also have better things to spend my money on than extremely short games. There has to be a safe medium somewhere....

One of my favorite games last year was Black. 5 or 6 hour game. I had an absolute BLAST with it and think I got my money's fun out of it despite it being so goddamn short. But if more games turned out like that there would be no point in truly owning them at full price. Store rentals are about 5.99 for 5 days. You could mow through games at a fraction of the cost if games were so short. I make purchases on a "how much will I glean from this game" ratio. Oblivion is worth its weight in gold. Sports games generally are, or other types with unlimited replay value.

So while a game that is 15 minutes long could be awe-inspiring, it's still a 15 minute game. Value is based on how much one can keep playing that game, and 15 minutes doesn't buy you much time to take a shit, let alone indulge in a videogame.

It's the same way short films aren't widely screened in theaters. I wouldn't want to pay 9 bucks to see a 15 minute flick. If I could see many of them, back to back, for 90 minutes or so, then great. Otherwise, the time vs. money ratio bothers me. I'm paying money to be entertained. Don't try to get out of it the quickest way possible.

[Kefkataran]

One of my favorite games last year was Black. 5 or 6 hour game. I had an absolute BLAST with it and think I got my money's fun out of it despite it being so goddamn short.

Whoa, wait, what? You're claiming not to care about measuring games based on hours of enjoyment... and you loved Black... but you're criticizing this for probably being too short? Huh?

[DeadlyDonkey]

All you people saying 5 hours keep forgetting that the game ships with TWO multiplayer deathmatch shooters...


I'm curious to hear if they actually made a decent game with a presented STORY this time. Not a bunch of running with physics puzzles to break up the running.

Half Life 2 was bursting with story, you just had to stop the running and discover it yourself. The characters in the game assume you've been around, and so none of them explain the situation to you. The newspapers, posters and various npc conversations explain everything. One of the most intelligent approaches to story in recent gaming, and perhaps the only game that doesn't feed every bit of it's "story" to you on a spoon.

[Kelegacy]

Whoa, wait, what? You're claiming not to care about measuring games based on hours of enjoyment... and you loved Black... but you're criticizing this for probably being too short? Huh?
I also said I was a hypocrite. I didn't like Black's length (ooh, sounds dirty) and I wouldn't purchase at full price again. Well, I DID get the game at a discount because my landlord owns a gamestore, but that's besides the point. I'm fighting for the rest of the humanity.

And I know Black is a horrid example. HL2 Episodes are 20 bucks and offer nearly as much game time as Black. So, comparatively, Episode 1 is a better deal.

Eh, I forgot what I'm argueing about. Maybe I was cranky last night. If I get a better grasp on my "view", I'll come back. But don't count on it. It's going to be a busy day here in the office, goddamnit.

[Kefkataran]

Eh, I forgot what I'm argueing about. Maybe I was cranky last night. If I get a better grasp on my "view", I'll come back. But don't count on it. It's going to be a busy day here in the office, goddamnit.

Old Man Kelegacy yelling at the kids again :p

[Kelegacy]

Old Man Kelegacy yelling at the kids again :p
LOL.

I've admitted the following to people at work: I like to complain.

"Why don't you do *such and such*?"
Me: "No, I'd rather just complain about it."
"If you do *such and such* it'll be fixed and everything will be fine."
Me: "No, then I wouldn't be able to complain about it."

I blame working in a henhouse on this new behavior. Honestly, I sit here in an estrogen saturated office every day for 8 or 9 hours--it's going to have SOME sort of effect on me. I'm quickly becoming a bitch that likes to bitch.

And I'm growing tits.

[Kefkataran]

I blame working in a henhouse on this new behavior. Honestly, I sit here in an estrogen saturated office every day for 8 or 9 hours--it's going to have SOME sort of effect on me. I'm quickly becoming a bitch that likes to bitch.

Yeah, sort of like how growing up in a shitty small town made me take after the shitty small-towners insofar as being a whiny self-concerned bitch who unable to look at and think about the rest of the world in a way that was even remotely relevant. Blah. Thank God I'm (more or less) out of that shithole.

Edit for clarity: Not saying you're half that bad. :p Just saying I was a few years ago. And most the people from my hometown still are.

[Kelegacy]

Yeah, sort of like how growing up in a shitty small town made me take after the shitty small-towners insofar as being a whiny self-concerned bitch who unable to look at and think about the rest of the world in a way that was even remotely relevant. Blah. Thank God I'm (more or less) out of that shithole.

Edit for clarity: Not saying you're half that bad. :p Just saying I was a few years ago. And most the people from my hometown still are.
I'm from a small town, too. And the people are the same way. In fact, when I go home and everyone sees me, they see a college boy...and because I like books I'm thought gay. Honestly, I'm a femme because I don't fuck sheep.

One guy said to me in a bar a few weeks back that I was the only one out of all his friends that actually finished college. That made me feel pretty good.

[Citizen Philip]

Here's a question...why are people measure this in hours?

Hypothetical question. Valve releases this killer game for 20 bucks. It's only 15 minutes long, but it's the best 15 minutes of gaming you've EVER played in your entire life. It's like a 3-some with 2 super models and you get of 15 times during it.

Does it matter that you paid 20 bucks for only 15 minutes?

I measure in hours because my life is spend and frequently segemented by the hours I spend doing things.

My hours at work, my hours travelling to and from work, my lunch hour, how many hours do I get to sleep at night, how many hours will this activity take, how many hours to read this book, how many hours/minutes is this movie?

Seeing as people generally consider $10 for a movie which can be between 80 minutes and 180 minutes as "worth it" and also a form of entertainment; I consider hours/cost is a viable analysis.

I don't think your example is reasonable. Computer games are not sex, and definitely not hot sex with two supermodels for 15 minutes. HOWEVER, if you do know of where you can get two supermodels for 15 minutes for $20, hook me up.

[Kefkataran]

I'm from a small town, too. And the people are the same way. In fact, when I go home and everyone sees me, they see a college boy...and because I like books I'm thought gay. Honestly, I'm a femme because I don't fuck sheep.

One guy said to me in a bar a few weeks back that I was the only one out of all his friends that actually finished college. That made me feel pretty good.

Yeah, I'm going to college in a small town (annoyingly), and it's made it clear to me that most small towns are exactly the same with how people are. I look forward to getting out soon though.

[Citizen Philip]

insofar as being a whiny self-concerned bitch who unable to look at and think about the rest of the world in a way that was even remotely relevant

I believe that is endemic of North America living, in general.

[Kefkataran]

I believe that is endemic of North America living, in general.

I don't doubt it for a second. I try not to judge people on it and just help my friends move past it, but it seems pretty prevalent almost everywhere I go.