Sony Executive - 'Make Your Own Games Using Linux on the PS3'

[fitbabits]

Gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com) has the news (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=9290).

In an intriguing turn of events, Sony executive Izumi Kawanishi has illuminated some of his company's PlayStation 3 Linux plans, indicating that it will be possible for individual 'homebrew' coders to create playable content for PS3, something actively blocked for Sony's PSP handheld.

In comments made to Japanese game website Impress Watch, and translated by GameSetWatch contributor Shou Suzuki, Kawanishi noted: "Because we have plans for having Linux on board [the PS3], we also recognize Linux programming activities... Other then game studios tied to official developer licenses, we'd like to see various individuals participate in content creation for the PS3."

It seems that Sony is happy to let basic application and game construction take place without access to the extremely sophisticated rendering and physics libraries available to licensors - Kawanishi further commented: "When a game studio enacts development on a PS3 by entering a license contract, SDK libraries... will be presented, and various technical support given. In contrast, when using Linux World on the PS3... support will fall to the lowest level required, and you must solve and work on things by yourselves."
Finally, some positive PS3-related news.

[Karas]

That would be really great, its about time companies started doing this...
(oh and ow do you post new threads and/or stories, at the bottom of the page it says I can post new threads but when I try to it say I dont have privliges or something)

[fitbabits]

That would be really great, its about time companies started doing this...
(oh and ow do you post new threads and/or stories, at the bottom of the page it says I can post new threads but when I try to it say I dont have privliges or something)
The more you post, the more priviliges you will be given. :)

[Zawath]

So basically they don't offer any help for those game creators who don't want to buy the very expensive license to make ps3 games. It's pretty much the opposite how Microsoft handles the indy developers.

[kokyunage]

damn, that might be worth $600 especially if a decent indi-dev community develops.

[AversionFX]

So you ... code(?) games on your PS3? How do you then dish it around to people? etc.

[fitbabits]

So basically they don't offer any help for those game creators who don't want to buy the very expensive license to make ps3 games. It's pretty much the opposite how Microsoft handles the indy developers.
So much for positive Sony news then.

[Karas]

The more you post, the more priviliges you will be given. :)
Thanks, I though I was going crazy, guess I'd better get to it...

[Dracula-X]

This is like the PS2 Linux deal, there will be some support in the forums, but the community pretty much helps itself. If the docs are anything like the PS2 Linux ones (they were excellent), that's all the community and homebrewers will need.

The Yaroze was pretty pricey in comparison, for a fraction of what the end user will get now.

AversionFX, you'd be able to ftp the file/files around, other users would be able to download your stuff through the browser or ftp or whatever.

[fitbabits]

Thanks, I though I was going crazy, guess I'd better get to it...
You may well be, but that's not for us to determine. :)

Once you reach a certain limit of posts you will be able to submit news for approval by the EvAv staff. The reason this is the case is to try and prevent people from registering just post promote something they are involved in by disguising it as news.

Or something. You'll have to excuse my waffling - I just took some migraine medication and I feel weird as hell. :eek:

[gojira]

So basically they don't offer any help for those game creators who don't want to buy the very expensive license to make ps3 games. It's pretty much the opposite how Microsoft handles the indy developers.

So, how does MS handle the indy games developer? From what I've seen, they aren't interested. Indy, yes, but only with a track record and considerable proven hits. Job Blow off the street isn't welcome.

At least with PS2, there are docs and a working Linux source base. Better than nothing.

[Dracula-X]

Job Blow off the street
Freudian slip? :D

[Dracula-X]

You'll have to excuse my waffling - I just took some migraine medication and I feel weird as hell. :eek:
We'll have to go easy on you today, then :)

[DigitalFirefly]

Yeah this is exactly like the PS2 linux kit.

[eth3rton]

How does Sony expect an "Indie" developer to do anything with the PS3 (or even PS2 for that matter) when Carmack himself has spoken out on how hard the damn thing is to touch.... Way to go Sony....!

[fitbabits]

We'll have to go easy on you today, then :)
Nah, I can handle it. My replies may be a little incoherent, though. :)

[absolut taco]

I wonder how long 'til the hard drive clearing viruses start appearing...

[MasterEvilAce]

So why are they so against this for the PSP?

People wanted the PSP because homebrew opened a huge new world..
PS3 got a lot of negative press at E3..
Sony wants PS3 to look better.
Sony goes yay linux to get people into the PS3.

[Karas]

If your gonna start using big words like incoherent I think you'll fine...

[Dracula-X]

How does Sony expect an "Indie" developer to do anything with the PS3 (or even PS2 for that matter) when Carmack himself has spoken out on how hard the damn thing is to touch.... Way to go Sony....!
I don't think most indy devs will be pushing anything as demanding as Carmack's stuff might be. If they're that good they'll go the official route. Otherwise after a time they'll be able to find support with the community. While working with GCC/Linux may not be easy for the beginner, it isn't rocket science either. Compilers are available even now. The libraries and documentation should cover most everything. Still, it's no substitute for a typical VisualStudio click and go setup, but for those that have been programming a long time, they'll be able to manage.

[fitbabits]

If your gonna start using big words like incoherent I think you'll fine...
Heh, we shall see. The medicine is just starting to kick in... :p

[Dracula-X]

Nah, I can handle it. My replies may be a little incoherent, though. :)
Hope you feel better soon.

[fitbabits]

Hope you feel better soon.
Thanks. Unfortunately, migraines are something I get way too often for my liking.

[Mason]

This is great news. Development communities can work out support decently well on their own (eventually). And once some open source game engines start popping up, independents can do interesting stuff without a lot of low-level undocumented mucking around.

Now then, how about officially allowing unsigned code in future PSP bios?

Hopefully, Sony is getting the picture, that letting dev communities freely write things for their platform adds desperately needed value.

[Yeti2005]

This sounds exactly like the PS2 Linux "thing". Didn't you have to buy some kit from Sony to get it to work? Also how successful was the PS2 Linux thing? Was there a lot of good homebrew stuff from it? I never got into to that scene so I don't know.

It sounds like the PS3 will already have a web browser and a way to stream music and movies so you don't need that. Nice looking games would be too hard to create (without SDKs) so I'm assuming people will either use the PS3 as a spare linux server or maybe port emulators over for it. Could be cool.

[gojira]

Freudian slip? :D
Possibly. It's been ages since I've had a BJ. ;)

[AversionFX]

If your gonna start using big words like incoherent I think you'll fine...


Since when was "incoherent," a big word?

Now 'sycophant' (while not actually any bigger, is a rather uncommon word), I had to go look that shit up. EvAv is always adding words into my vernacular.

[Dracula-X]

This is great news. Development communities can work out support decently well on their own (eventually). And once some open source game engines start popping up, independents can do interesting stuff without a lot of low-level undocumented mucking around.

Now then, how about officially allowing unsigned code in future PSP bios?

Hopefully, Sony is getting the picture, that letting dev communities freely write things for their platform adds desperately needed value.
Agreed. There was this bit that Borys posted in another thread from an interview, regarding PS1 emulation on PSP:
They are booted from MemStick Duo. If users want PSP may support MemStick boot of user application in future.
There's hope yet. And they could *really* use the good PR now. :)

[fitbabits]

There's hope yet. And they could *really* use the good PR now. :)
And believe it or not, I am actively searching out some good Sony-related news. It's just not that easy to find at the moment for some reason.

[Cha-Ka]

Now then, how about officially allowing unsigned code in future PSP bios?
According to this translated interview, there may actually be hope on that front...
"If users want PSP may support MemStick boot of user application in future (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30746)" - Izumi Kawanishi

Thanks to Borys for the link (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12671)

[Dracula-X]

And believe it or not, I am actively searching out some good Sony-related news. It's just not that easy to find at the moment for some reason.
The reason is clear; they've gone daft and are stabbing themselves in the throat. With a spoon. But here's to hoping they'll come to some sense eventually. Thanks for trying though, appreciated :)

[fitbabits]

The reason is clear; they've gone daft and are stabbing themselves in the throat. With a spoon. But here's to hoping they'll come to some sense eventually. Thanks for trying though, appreciated :)
It should also be noted that I'm sure the rest of the EvAv staff are likewise looking.

[Deathbane27]

Now, if they'll let you use this monstrosity like a personal computer, and there's some good software available for that aspect... maybe the $500/600 is worth it.

It would be deliciously ironic if someone managed to somehow get Oblivion running with user-mods on the PS3 before the 360. :D

[NoName]

It should also be noted that I'm sure the rest of the EvAv staff are likewise looking.
I looked this morning and all I found was the Ken quote that Bap posted later in the day (aka I didn't find any). There's just very slim pickings. Instead we should just post some more of the wonderful Wii news floating around the internet :D.

[fitbabits]

I looked this morning and all I found was the Ken quote that Bap posted later in the day (aka I didn't find any). There's just very slim pickings. Instead we should just post some more of the wonderful Wii news floating around the internet :D.
Yeah, I've been looking all day and nobody is publishing anything much in the way of Sony news (apart from the obviously Sony biased tripe that's out there, that is).

EDIT - And before some smart arse chimes in, allow me to say it for you : "you mean like the pro-Microsoft tripe on EvAv then". :rolleyes:

[UglyPimp]

Now why would they possibly let you do this on the PS3 and not the PSP? Is there something to the PSP that makes it more of a risk factor? Not a sarcastic question at all, I wonder if theres some reasoning.

[Deathbane27]

Now why would they possibly let you do this on the PS3 and not the PSP? Is there something to the PSP that makes it more of a risk factor? Not a sarcastic question at all, I wonder if theres some reasoning.

Sony's so huge, it's left hand and right hand don't get to talk to eachother very much.

Heck, even the left hand's thumb (PS2/PS3) and the left hand's pinky (PSP) can't see eachother. :p

[MajSheppard]

This sounds like more of the Me-too!

Sony trying to steal the Spore game as well?

[DigitalFirefly]

They'll probably charge $200 for the Linux kit too.

[KNOTE]

My guess is that you'll never see a real game through this method. Did anyone make games for the PS2 linux kit?

[Serapth]

This is great news. Development communities can work out support decently well on their own (eventually). And once some open source game engines start popping up, independents can do interesting stuff without a lot of low-level undocumented mucking around.

Now then, how about officially allowing unsigned code in future PSP bios?

Hopefully, Sony is getting the picture, that letting dev communities freely write things for their platform adds desperately needed value.

IF they would do that, I might actually buy a new game for my PSP. As it stands now, im unwilling to move beyond 1.5 firmware as I get more value from emulators then I do from the psp itself. Its a great little MAME machine. And yeah, I know there are ROM downgraders, I just dont trust them.

[Serapth]

So, how does MS handle the indy games developer? From what I've seen, they aren't interested. Indy, yes, but only with a track record and considerable proven hits. Job Blow off the street isn't welcome.

At least with PS2, there are docs and a working Linux source base. Better than nothing.

Well, for real indys, as in absolutely zero cash, they provide a free version of the development tools and the XNA dev kit. Its pretty much everything you would need to make a live arcade style game.

The only negative is the submission process for getting your game published on live is still "coming soon".

[JediSanf]

Am I the only person in here interested in the emulator possibilites? MAME goodness, anyone?

[gojira]

Well, for real indys, as in absolutely zero cash, they provide a free version of the development tools and the XNA dev kit. Its pretty much everything you would need to make a live arcade style game.

The only negative is the submission process for getting your game published on live is still "coming soon".

Well that's good news. I just found the announcement from GDC 2006. Having XNA to Google for helped.

Unfortunately, it's Windows Xp only. I have Win2k. :( Oh well, at least it's available for some people. I hope the final version isn't "vista only." :D

[Draft]

The ability to write and run unsigned linux code on the PS3 is huge. So huge, I think it's a little suspect that the only report of it comes from a translated japanese interview. You'd think something like this would have come up at E3.

[Snowmit]

Didn't Sony promise Linux on the PS2?

[fitbabits]

Didn't Sony promise Linux on the PS2?
Yes, and I believe they delivered it in some fashion.

[Reanimated]

Great news! I remember playing all of those indie games that were made on the PS2 Linux kits! Awesome times...

[VenomUSMC]

Yes professional programmers with millions of dollars invested are having trouble with the PS 3 yet Johnny 16 year old whom thinks he is a programmer is going to recreate Halo 3 for the PS 3.... I believe this is really nothing. Sure it could POSSIBLY be cool, but last time I checked Sony well pretty hell bent on total control they get sued for it remember?

[Dr Quincy]

I'm struggling to see the Linux boot option amongst the "Photo", "Video", "Etc" options on the PS3 front end.

[Mason]

Yes professional programmers with millions of dollars invested are having trouble with the PS 3 yet Johnny 16 year old whom thinks he is a programmer is going to recreate Halo 3 for the PS 3.... I believe this is really nothing. Sure it could POSSIBLY be cool, but last time I checked Sony well pretty hell bent on total control they get sued for it remember?
If the community doesn't take advantage of this stuff, it doesn't lessen the altruism of Sony for releasing it. People have done great things with unsigned code on the PSP, and that was a locked and hostile platform.

No one is expecting open-source AAA games, but homebrew titles and applications have a lot of potential. No one is claiming that this announcment makes the PS3 an insta-purchase, but it does add value and demonstrate a slight mellowing of Sony's draconian tendencies.

[Serapth]

Yes, and I believe they delivered it in some fashion.

Sorta, the net Yaroze I believe it was called. But the application could only be spread to other linux users, and the kits were a grand a piece.

[fitbabits]

Sorta, the net Yaroze I believe it was called. But the application could only be spread to other linux users, and the kits were a grand a piece.
Right, I should have written, "...in some fashion or another".

[Cha-Ka]

Net Yaroze was the home dev kit for the original playstation.
http://darkwatcher.psxfanatics.com/console/yaroze.jpg

The next one was called the PS2 linux kit (http://playstation2-linux.com/) .
http://playstation2-linux.com/Linux_kit.jpg

[Schnoogs]

This is great news. Development communities can work out support decently well on their own (eventually). And once some open source game engines start popping up, independents can do interesting stuff without a lot of low-level undocumented mucking around.

How many years til this happens?? This sounds good at face value but in all honesty its gonna be a looooong time before this means anything for the weekend programmer.

Could you image someone giving you an NVidia 7900 with no DirectX or OpenGl and telling you to monkey around with it??!?!? You'd spend ages setting up your own layer to communicate with the hardware assuming you even have access to documentation about the hardware and its native instruction set.

[miah]

Net Yaroze was the home dev kit for the original playstation.
http://darkwatcher.psxfanatics.com/console/yaroze.jpg

The next one was called the PS2 linux kit (http://playstation2-linux.com/) .
http://playstation2-linux.com/Linux_kit.jpg

And you can get BlackRhino Linux distro for the PS2 now for free, the only thing that you may be lacking is the VGA output or the HDD, but you can get most of the required parts easily now.
BlackRhino Debian for PS2 (http://blackrhino.xrhino.com/main.php?page=home)

There's plenty more info out there if you google for the right things.. But I really haven't seen much out there that uses the devkit.

[Draft]

You can't spin this as a bad thing, if it's true. I doubt very much that it is, but whatever. If people can really write plain jane Linux code and then you can just download it to your PS3, that's really cool. But again, I doubt very, very much Sony wants to get into the business of subsidizing a bunch of amatuer linux programmers. You thought Xbox got hacked? Phew.

[dena miscreant]

I saw a cousin's PS2 HDD Loader recently... very interesting.

He had Rez. I was amazed.

Damn, I wish I had my PS2 again. I'll wait 'til I can pick one up for 50 bucks or something...

[dena miscreant]

cuz that's gonna happen before PS3 is 400.

[vallor]

Net Yaroze was the home dev kit for the original playstation.


The next one was called the PS2 linux kit (http://playstation2-linux.com/) .


Lets not think this is all altruism on Sony's part.

As I recall one of the biggest reasons they released the Yaroze and Linux kit in the first place was was to get around import fees/tarrifs in some European countries.

With Linux the PS2 was able to claim "personal computer" status instead of "trifle electronic gizmo just for lucky well off people to have fun in their leisure time" status and BAM-O, cheaper importing (and cheaper price for the console to the consumers).

Sneaky Sneaky!

(edit to remove the image links)

[miah]

I saw a cousin's PS2 HDD Loader recently... very interesting.

He had Rez. I was amazed.

Damn, I wish I had my PS2 again. I'll wait 'til I can pick one up for 50 bucks or something...

You mean like 'HDLoader', that software is great, i try to use it on most of my games because i hate listening to the disc spin and the dvdrom seems to be the part that goes bad the fastest (well sure moving parts and all). I actually paid for it until i learned that you could download and run it off the memcard. I have friends that have gone through several ps2's, but im still on my first got it a few weeks after stateside release from the Sony Metreon too. Waited for all the people camping outside to get theirs and then randomly stopped in at lunch and happened to get one.

I have Rez on Dreamcast, its great, but the dreamcast version didn't have the Trance Vibrator [GGA] (http://www.gamegirladvance.com/archives/2002/10/26/sex_in_games_rezvibrator.html)

I'm happy with my PS2, but since I got the 360 I definitely haven't turned it on much. I still need to finish a couple games on it though, so i'll be powering it up again soon.

[Oddmaker]

Man the Sony PS3 is going to be so easy to hack, developers are going to start crying from people downloading games from the internet and not buying them at 50$ a pop.

[Chandler]

I think as a developer I'll take my chances on people downloading 50gb for 1 game.

[Schnoogs]

I think as a developer I'll take my chances on people downloading 50gb for 1 game.

Most games won't be much bigger than a DVD...remember, including BluRay is Sony's way of ensuring that its new format isnt the next Beta...it certainly isnt to give developers space they desperately need.

[Chandler]

Yeah you're right, it's going to be interesting how Sony does this, it's going to be insanely hard to support homebrew but at the same time prevent piracy. And if games are allowed be sold through this homebrew mechanism it sounds like it would compete with the games sold on discs, which would make 3rd parties go "aww wtf more competition".