PhysX Coming to 360

[bapenguin]

Aegia (http://www.aegia.com) and Phantagram (http://www.phantagram.com/) plan to demonstrate PhysX in action on the XBox 360 at this year's E3 Expo.

"AGEIA's NovodeX physics software is a powerful tool in the developer's arsenal for delivering more impact and interactivity to their games," said Sang Youn Lee, CEO at Phantagram. "The development of physics in games is just beginning and AGEIA is making a name for itself in this exciting new area."
"Phantagram has put Korean game developers on the map with the huge international success of the Kingdom Under Fire series," said Andy Keane, vice president of marketing for AGEIA. "We hope to contribute to their future success with our groundbreaking physics technology."
Well, at least console gamers aren't getting ripped off with a $300 add-in card.

[bapenguin]

Game Mixes Action, RPG and RTS Elements for an Unforgettable Game Experience

LOS ANGELES, May 18 /PRNewswire/ -- At the Electronic Entertainment Expo
(E3), AGEIA(TM) Technologies, Inc., the pioneer in hardware-accelerated
physics for games, today announced that Phantagram Co., Ltd. is using AGEIA's
NovodeX physics software for its upcoming title for the next-generation Xbox.
The game will feature physics-based realism to deliver an immersive,
exhilarating game experience.
"AGEIA's NovodeX physics software is a powerful tool in the developer's
arsenal for delivering more impact and interactivity to their games," said
Sang Youn Lee, CEO at Phantagram. "The development of physics in games is just
beginning and AGEIA is making a name for itself in this exciting new area."
"Phantagram has put Korean game developers on the map with the huge
international success of the Kingdom Under Fire series," said Andy Keane, vice
president of marketing for AGEIA. "We hope to contribute to their future
success with our groundbreaking physics technology."
AGEIA will be demonstrating games using AGEIA PhysX technology at E3. (By
appointment only, Kentia Hall, booth #7532.)

About Phantagram
PHANTAGRAM CO., LTD. an international developer/publisher of electronic
entertainment software, combines the best game development, publication,
global marketing and comprehensive media mixing business to reach the global
electronic entertainment industry. For more information, visit
http://www.phantagram.com.

About AGEIA
AGEIA(TM) Technologies, Inc. is a fabless semiconductor company and the
pioneer of hardware-accelerated physics for games. Its flagship product, the
PhysX processor, is the world's first dedicated physics processing unit -- a
completely new hardware category. The PhysX processor and supporting software
deliver the processing horsepower to calculate real-time interactive worlds.
Developers can define these worlds to obey the laws of classical physics, or
create their own physical laws that make their game a unique, hyper-
dimensional experience.
AGEIA seeks to ignite innovation in the games industry by working with
leading developers, publishers, add-in board vendors and console manufacturers
to deliver the next generation of physically immersive entertainment. Consumer
add-in boards and systems equipped with the AGEIA PhysX processor and games
that take advantage of the technology will be available in late 2005. For more
information visit http://www.ageia.com.

[Mr.Green]

So Borys, you pretty much laughed (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=246317#post246317) at me when I asked the difference between running physics on an Ageia card and running it on a 360 core. I guess the question wasn't that dumb since they're gonna do just that, huh?

Oh sssssssssssssnap!

[thecrazyd]

That tears it. The 360 is a PC with severely limited input methods, and even more limited upgrade options. I mean, add on cards? What the hell?

[Wolfgang]

That tears it. The 360 is a PC with severely limited input methods, and even more limited upgrade options. I mean, add on cards? What the hell?

What the fuck are you talking about? This is software for the 360, not an add on card. It is going to be like the Havok engine I assume.

As far as limited inputs -- the 360 has 3 USB and 1 ethernet and can talk to most every device. USB isn't the best input for everything, but with 3 USB ports and support for USB hubs the 360 can support a lot of hardware.

[thecrazyd]

What the fuck are you talking about? This is software for the 360, not an add on card. It is going to be like the Havok engine I assume.
Well then. Carry on.
As far as limited inputs -- the 360 has 3 USB and 1 ethernet and can talk to most every device. USB isn't the best input for everything, but with 3 USB ports and support for USB hubs the 360 can support a lot of hardware.
Does this mean I can use a kb/m for Halo 3?

[digitalErich]

I can't find a link, but there was an article with Gabe Newell about physics add-on cards. What he basically said was that add-on cards are only good for effects-only physics, not 'meaningful' physics that affect the game world.

If you knock over a table, the AI would have to path around it...since the CPU is controlling the positioning of objects and the AI (and in turn what the AI knows about said objects), an add-on card wouldn't be useful in this situation; it's still CPU driven. His arguement makes sense to me at a conceptual level. Anyone have a link to this interview/article? I'd like to take another look at it.

EDIT: I'm aware this article is not talking about add-on cards...it just got me thinking.

[The Continental]

What the fuck are you talking about? This is software for the 360, not an add on card. It is going to be like the Havok engine I assume.

I'm assuming that this is indeed going to be the case. Show me that CellFactor demo being played on a 360 right out of the box and I'll eat my words and go buy a 360 that same day. In the mean time, don't expect too much from this announcement.

[sTubbs]

It will be interesting to see how the capabilities of this software + a dedicated processing core compare to the ~300 dollar PC card. The kicker will be if they show the Cell Factor demo running on a 360.

[Wolfgang]

Well then. Carry on.
Learn2read in the future.

Does this mean I can use a kb/m for Halo 3? The 360 does support USB keyboards, but currently mice do not work is my understanding.

On a side note: I prefer a control pad vs kb/m. The kb/m makes it too easy. Shooting a gun is hard and a control pad makes it a lot harder than just twirling a mouse around. You kd/m players vs a control pad player and it is too easy. GRAW on the 360 would be so simple with a kb/m setup. It is a lot easier to use and therefore I am starting to prefer the control pad just simply for the challenge.

[Wolfgang]

It will be interesting to see how the capabilities of this software + a dedicated processing core compare to the ~300 dollar PC card. The kicker will be if they show the Cell Factor demo running on a 360.

Would you honestly expect a $400 console to out perform a PC running SLI video cards, Ageia card, 1GB of RAM, etc... I wouldn't.

Anyway, if you read the PR -- this some software they are putting out and hopefully it will be good, but considering the 360 costs a fraction of a top of the line gaming PC, I would suspect the PC should out perform it if setup correctly.

Edit: also, it is about your Return on investment. If you can buy a $400 360 and get *near* the same performance as a 1200 to 1600 PC, then I would be happier with my 360 purchase.

[earthworm48]

I can't find a link, but there was an article with Gabe Newell about physics add-on cards. What he basically said was that add-on cards are only good for effects-only physics, not 'meaningful' physics that affect the game world.

That was Havok FX, not these PPU cards + Ageia (sp) SDKs that are meant to do more interaction than effect physics.

Link to EA Thread (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11077&highlight=newell+havok)

The Game Informer Interview it is in. (http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200603/N06.0324.2249.59492.htm)

Also has anyone seen the specs for GRAW PC?

Interview with them in (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/r/?page=http://www.computerandvideogames.com/news/news_story.php?id=137969)

Can you give us the final specs required for the game?

Mathieu Girard: You will need a 2GHz Pentium IV or the equivalent with 1024MB RAM and 5GB of hard drive space, nVidia GeForce 6/7 or ATI Radeon 9600-9800/X.

The RAM seems pretty high to me even if a gig isn't as much as it used to be. Also you need a lot more on the Nvidia side of things, no? Maybe this is just because the FX cards were so crap. I wonder how well the game will run as I definately wasn't the only one to notice the crappy framerate in the last video release for GRAW PC when I trawled (sp) a few sites.

[Klade]

I can't find a link, but there was an article with Gabe Newell about physics add-on cards. What he basically said was that add-on cards are only good for effects-only physics, not 'meaningful' physics that affect the game world.

If you knock over a table, the AI would have to path around it...since the CPU is controlling the positioning of objects and the AI (and in turn what the AI knows about said objects), an add-on card wouldn't be useful in this situation; it's still CPU driven. His arguement makes sense to me at a conceptual level. Anyone have a link to this interview/article? I'd like to take another look at it.

EDIT: I'm aware this article is not talking about add-on cards...it just got me thinking.

You really need to look at that article again cause you are totally screwing it up heh. Newell was talking about graphics cards that are subing as physics cards. Those only can handle pretty effect physics. The actual dedicated physics card (which aegia is the only one on the market atm) can determine actual object physics.

What I want to know is what kind of hardware the 360 is using to handle physics. I remember that before it was released there was rumor of some sort of dedicated physics hardware but I never heard much of it. Are they just talking about dedicating a core to physics and thats it? Or is there a real chip in there somewhere thats only for physics use?

[51|RandoM]

On a side note: I prefer a control pad vs kb/m. The kb/m makes it too easy. Shooting a gun is hard and a control pad makes it a lot harder than just twirling a mouse around. You kd/m players vs a control pad player and it is too easy. GRAW on the 360 would be so simple with a kb/m setup. It is a lot easier to use and therefore I am starting to prefer the control pad just simply for the challenge.

This is the funniest rationalization for gamepad I've seen.

I prefer my challenge in the form of gameplay, not in the form of purposely retarded control schemes.

Why don't you just play blindfolded if you really want a challenge?

[Wolfgang]

This is the funniest rationalization for gamepad I've seen.

I prefer my challenge in the form of gameplay, not in the form of purposely retarded control schemes.

Why don't you just play blindfolded if you really want a challenge?

Lets see -- the only way the gameplay on a PC can be a challenge is if they cheat. Have you ever fired a gun? It is hard to aim, fire and maintain a straight shot. So they make the AI much better than they really would be. You aren't going to hit shit firing from the hip in real life.

A Control pad requires slightly more skill to aim and fire.

So I guess your improved gameplay is just AI that are snipers. GG.

I guess everyone who enjoys FPS titles on consoles are retarded. Awesome.

Edit: In case you have never fired a weapon -- movies are not real. Watch the Marine training on the military channel, talk to a police officer, talk to a military person -- firing a weapon is hard. Being an awesome shot in a PC game is not real life. To make firing a weapon hard on a PC and even a console they have to add all sorts of funky controls -- hold your breath, crouch, lay down, etc... as they try to make it more realistic.

Having a M4, 2 9MM and a 22 I know firing a weapon is hard and prefer the console experince to just seeing how fast I can move my cursor while I hold down my crouch key.

[UnderHero5]

From what the story say's it seems they are just building a physics engine to be used in games... along the lines of what Havok is (as Wolfgang said). So don't get too excited and expect to see the useless amounts of flying crap displayed in the recent tech demo they released on the 360.

The topic heading is a little misleading. It shouls be "AGEIA Coming to 360"...

I must add that I think the PhysX card is a complete waste of money and utterly useless... but that's just my view on it.

[Norse]

This is the funniest rationalization for gamepad I've seen.

I prefer my challenge in the form of gameplay, not in the form of purposely retarded control schemes.

Why don't you just play blindfolded if you really want a challenge?

So console games have "a retarded control scheme"? Gamepads may not be as good as kb/m for fps, but after a couple of months with consoling, I find the gamepad to be quite good at fps as well. Don't blame the gamepad for your lack of coordination skills :)

[Citizen Philip]

Lets see -- the only way the gameplay on a PC can be a challenge is if they cheat. Have you ever fired a gun? It is hard to aim, fire and maintain a straight shot. So they make the AI much better than they really are.

A Control pad requires slightly more skill to aim and fire.

So I guess your improved gameplay is just AI that are snipers. GG.

I guess everyone who enjoys FPS titles are retarded. Awesome.

So what you're saying is: You're a FPS game controller masochist. I'm not, but I won't judge you for whatever you consider fun: or even how you want to rationalize it.

[The Continental]

This is the funniest rationalization for gamepad I've seen.

I prefer my challenge in the form of gameplay, not in the form of purposely retarded control schemes.

Why don't you just play blindfolded if you really want a challenge?

Too true. That's like saying I stomp ass in wheel chair basketball because I'm not in a wheel chair. To say console shooters would be too easy with a mouse and keyboard is correct, as they aren't created with those devices in mind. I'm fairly certain the 360 intentionally doesn't support mice due to the disparity that would create in games like Halo 2.

[digitalErich]

You really need to look at that article again cause you are totally screwing it up heh.

Exactly why I wanted the link again : ) Yeah, my memory failed me...in any case, at $300 on top of what already is a large price tag for a decent gaming PC, I don't see PPUs gaining a large enough foothold in the PC market to warrant devs making many "must have" games that require a PPU.

[Wolfgang]

So what you're saying is: You're a FPS game controller masochist. I'm not, but I won't judge you for whatever you consider fun: or even how you want to rationalize it.

No. I play PC and console FPS titles. I can blow through PC titles a lot faster than console ones. A PC is simply to easy. The only way the "gameplay" becomes a challenge is when you have AI that can turn on a dime and make a head shot or you give the AI weapons with explosive effects.

So while you tell yourself the gameplay is more enhanced... You should realize it is just cheats in the game to make the AI better shots than you can be in real life since the player using a kb/m is a much better shot than you could be in real life.

[bapenguin]

I should have known this would turn into yet another PC vs Console discussion.

I think we should keep a running counter on the front page from now on.

"EvilAvatar.com, now serving over 1374 PC vs. Console Flame wars!"

[digitalErich]

It's been my experience that anyone taking a side in the whole pc vs. console rarely does it based on true merits of either, but on what that person owns. Same think with Xbox vs. PS2, or DS vs. PSP. People don't like being told they made the wrong choice.

I am 2 years out of college and thus can afford a nice PC and all the consoles...the only people that I ever see get into PC vs console arguments are people that own one or the other. Sure, I might prefer the PC for FPS games (personal preference), each system has it's merits...but I'm also not going to try to tell anyone that Halo isn't any good, or that putting it on the PC would automatically make it better.

[Genital Eclipse]

I should have known this would turn into yet another PC vs Console discussion.

I think we should keep a running counter on the front page from now on.

"EvilAvatar.com, now serving over 1374 PC vs. Console Flame wars!"

I love reading the same shit from the same people everyday, don't you?

I learn a lot from these debates. Like how to slowly slit my wrists with a saltine cracker.

[UnderHero5]

It's been my experience that anyone taking a side in the whole pc vs. console rarely does it based on true merits of either, but on what that person owns. Same think with Xbox vs. PS2, or DS vs. PSP. People don't like being told they made the wrong choice.

I am 2 years out of college and thus can afford a nice PC and all the consoles...the only people that I ever see get into PC vs console arguments are people that own one or the other. Sure, I might prefer the PC for FPS games (personal preference), each system has it's merits...but I'm also not going to try to tell anyone that Halo isn't any good, or that putting it on the PC would automatically make it better.
I love you.

[bone_matrix]

It's been my experience that anyone taking a side in the whole pc vs. console rarely does it based on true merits of either, but on what that person owns. Same think with Xbox vs. PS2, or DS vs. PSP. People don't like being told they made the wrong choice.

I am 2 years out of college and thus can afford a nice PC and all the consoles...the only people that I ever see get into PC vs console arguments are people that own one or the other. Sure, I might prefer the PC for FPS games (personal preference), each system has it's merits...but I'm also not going to try to tell anyone that Halo isn't any good, or that putting it on the PC would automatically make it better.

It didn't. :D

But seriously, good post.

[Ludoc]

Exactly why I wanted the link again : ) Yeah, my memory failed me...in any case, at $300 on top of what already is a large price tag for a decent gaming PC, I don't see PPUs gaining a large enough foothold in the PC market to warrant devs making many "must have" games that require a PPU.

I agree, for the price of this add on card, which may or my not be supported by many games or even at all in a year's time, you can pick up a 360. Albeit, the 'tard pack but a functioning "next-gen" console none the less.

[digitalErich]

It didn't. :D

But seriously, good post.

I refuse to acknowledge that game : ) Seriously though, after I re-read my post, I knew it was a race to see who would be the first to pick that out :)

[Wolfgang]

It's been my experience that anyone taking a side in the whole pc vs. console rarely does it based on true merits of either, but on what that person owns. Same think with Xbox vs. PS2, or DS vs. PSP. People don't like being told they made the wrong choice.

I am 2 years out of college and thus can afford a nice PC and all the consoles...the only people that I ever see get into PC vs console arguments are people that own one or the other. Sure, I might prefer the PC for FPS games (personal preference), each system has it's merits...but I'm also not going to try to tell anyone that Halo isn't any good, or that putting it on the PC would automatically make it better.

I don't want to give the wrong impression that I think Console FPS are better than PC FPS. I just was trying to get across a preference of mine since people were making crap up about the 360, etc...

I was simply trying to inform how "enhanced gameplay" is being created on both the 360 and PC. More accurate AI or waves of AI -- neither system comes close to realistic. That is why when you have AI "buddies" that can't hit shit, but people can snipe from 300 yards a way by crouching for 2 seconds they complain about shitty AI, but really the shitty AI is more realistic than the enemy AI. That is for both the 360 and PC.

I just don't like the whole "well if the 360 supported the kb/m all games would be 1000x better" crap.

[Goronmon]

This is the funniest rationalization for gamepad I've seen.

I prefer my challenge in the form of gameplay, not in the form of purposely retarded control schemes.
Its sooo funny that I happen to agree with him completely. I guess you have to make the distiction between "purposely retarded" and challenging. Sure, its harder with a controller, but I find it more of a challenge with a gamepad than kb/m. Conversly I find kb/m too easy to master and I've pretty much stopped playing FPSs on the PC because of it.

I mean, would you consider aim-bots allowable? I mean, aiming is just challenge in the form of gameplay. Why not just remove it altogether and just have a "Head Shot" button you can hit repeatedly? Oh thats right, because it makes the games too easy.

[digitalErich]

I just don't like the whole "well if the 360 supported the kb/m all games would be 1000x better" crap.

I prefer a KB/M myself (even bought one of those Smart Joy Frags for the Xbox...bleh) but I agree. Putting in KB/M support would not make the games better, it would make them more 'comfortable' for people used to that control scheme. If that small degree of comfort is keeping you from enjoying co-op Halo or Halo2, I weep for you.
Don't get me wrong, if consoles supported KB/M, I would be the first in line to jump all over that...but they don't and I'm not going to let some warped sense of 'gaming street-cred' keep from enjoying good games.

Yeah, my friends that kick my ass in Halo would be fodder for me in Quake 3 or BF2...to the point of it being not fun for me I would imagine, but I still love me some Halo on the console.

[digitalErich]

Its sooo funny that I happen to agree with him completely. I guess you have to make the distiction between "purposely retarded" and challenging. Sure, its harder with a controller, but I find it more of a challenge with a gamepad than kb/m. Conversly I find kb/m too easy to master and I've pretty much stopped playing FPSs on the PC because of it.

I mean, would you consider aim-bots allowable? I mean, aiming is just challenge in the form of gameplay. Why not just remove it altogether and just have a "Head Shot" button you can hit repeatedly? Oh thats right, because it makes the games too easy.

Not my personal opinion...just offering up a counter arguement:
You say that you prefer the controller because it's more of a challenge than the KB/M.

One could spin this as a positive. If the KB/M is so easy that you can do whatever you want in game (within the realm of the games rules,physics, etc) isn't this providing a more immersive experience? If the interface between me and the game world is more seemless, it's less about how dexterous or skilling at minipulating a real-world tool and more about how well I play the game...how skillful I am, how well I know the map, how well I can bluff my opponent, etc. Adding a more difficult control scheme does not make a more challenging game. It makes it more frustrating as I am not able to translate what I would like to do into what I can do on screen. Meaning it's not all about game skill, but at least partically about the skill of manipulating a peice of plastic. Again with the Halo, but just because I've been Legendary 5 times, I'm not going to start playing the game with my feet.

Again, the above is not fully my opinion, just offering a counter argument (even if I used the first person).

[Grifter]

I love reading the same shit from the same people everyday, don't you?

I learn a lot from these debates. Like how to slowly slit my wrists with a saltine cracker.

Got any pointers? I can only seem to get a quarter of the way up my wrist before I eat the saltine and choke on the crumbs causing someone to come and save me. I'm thinking of using a placemat next week.

I tried hanging my self with a condom last night but it just made me horny.

[Goronmon]

If the KB/M is so easy that you can do whatever you want in game (within the realm of the games rules,physics, etc) isn't this providing a more immersive experience?
Which I would counter with...it would only effect immersion up until the point where the player becomes comfortable with the "new" control scheme.

[torrefaction]

It's been my experience that anyone taking a side in the whole pc vs. console rarely does it based on true merits of either, but on what that person owns. Same think with Xbox vs. PS2, or DS vs. PSP. People don't like being told they made the wrong choice.

I am 2 years out of college and thus can afford a nice PC and all the consoles...the only people that I ever see get into PC vs console arguments are people that own one or the other. Sure, I might prefer the PC for FPS games (personal preference), each system has it's merits...but I'm also not going to try to tell anyone that Halo isn't any good, or that putting it on the PC would automatically make it better.

Holy fuckin god. This is the holy grail of the PC versus Console posts. Idiots, Fanboys, and Trolls. INGRAIN THIS IN YOUR MEMORY.

[The Continental]

I should have known this would turn into yet another PC vs Console discussion.

I think we should keep a running counter on the front page from now on.

"EvilAvatar.com, now serving over 1374 PC vs. Console Flame wars!"

So if you have such a distaste for them, why would you post this as your comment to a rather innocuous news item?

Well, at least console gamers aren't getting ripped off with a $300 add-in card.

[aversion2k]

I'm not sure if this has been pointed out yet, I cant be screwed reading all the posts.
NovodeX is a physics engine just the same has havok. I use at work. Its good, but nothing special. It wont be able to do all that ppu stuff.
(Oh yea we are using novodex on a pc game)

[The Continental]

I'm not sure if this has been pointed out yet, I cant be screwed reading all the posts.
NovodeX is a physics engine just the same has havok. I use at work. Its good, but nothing special. It wont be able to do all that ppu stuff.
(Oh yea we are using novodex on a pc game)

It has been pointed out, but why let these pesky facts get in the way of a perfectly good fanboy bitch fit.

[aversion2k]

....
Edit: In case you have never fired a weapon -- movies are not real. Watch the Marine training on the military channel, talk to a police officer...

The police in New Zealand dont even get sticks :P If they want a batton they have to go and fill out heaps of forms and wait a few weeks for a reply.

On and I think unreal 3 use's novodex

[Wolfgang]

The police in New Zealand dont even get sticks :P If they want a batton they have to go and fill out heaps of forms and wait a few weeks for a reply.

On and I think unreal 3 use's novodex

That is crazy. Do you guys have firing ranges there?

[Goronmon]

I love reading the same shit from the same people everyday, don't you?
Such is the way of the internet message board. Its one of those things people almost always discover after trolling various forums for a while. ;)

[Zeal]

An advanced physics engine is essential in the next-generation. This will become as important as graphics, sound and gameplay.

[aversion2k]

That is crazy. Do you guys have firing ranges there?

Yea, but not very many, Ive never seen one, actually I've never seen a gun.
Ha and new zealands equivalent of a swat team looks like guys with lots of wooley jumpers on and some hunting rifles. Well at least those are the guys we see on the news whenever some druggy goes crazy with a sword.

Oh our army does use steyr's though, so thats good.
But our airforce doesnt actually have any jets :D just helicopters and cargoplanes.

An advanced physics engine is essential in the next-generation. This will become as important as graphics, sound and gameplay.

Definatly, although from what I can tell, novodex isnt nessicarly better then havok, other then the fact it's probebly easier to intergrate with the ppu.

[xxBlackCrossxx]

An advanced physics engine is essential in the next-generation. This will become as important as graphics, sound and gameplay.


Two thumbs down, nigga.


is that why you gave it "two thumbs down?"

[Swat]

This is the funniest rationalization for gamepad I've seen.

I prefer my challenge in the form of gameplay, not in the form of purposely retarded control schemes.

Why don't you just play blindfolded if you really want a challenge?

It is a pretty funny comparison. My theory is that if you can't equally operate both a keyboard/mouse and gamepad sufficiently (without being a whiner) you should really call it a day and go eat some jello or something.

[aversion2k]

Hey, everyone knows that the companation of a stylus, joystick, steering wheel and pedals make for the best control system on any fps.

[SuperMonkeyFighter2]

It's been my experience that anyone taking a side in the whole pc vs. console rarely does it based on true merits of either, but on what that person owns. Same think with Xbox vs. PS2, or DS vs. PSP. People don't like being told they made the wrong choice.

I am 2 years out of college and thus can afford a nice PC and all the consoles...the only people that I ever see get into PC vs console arguments are people that own one or the other. Sure, I might prefer the PC for FPS games (personal preference), each system has it's merits...but I'm also not going to try to tell anyone that Halo isn't any good, or that putting it on the PC would automatically make it better.

Nice post ... I find it funny how easily this can be summed up, yet folks choose to overlook this and go on, and on, and on about why a PC is better, or why a console is better. It's funny, because this post can be cut and pasted into the PS3 fanboy forums, the 360 fanboy forums, etc. and still apply

If you like your system of choice ... great! I don't see why folks need to rationalize why "one is better than the other." If someone prefers mouse/kb, a post as to the merits of gamepad playing WILL NOT change that person's mind (however, in some people's minds, adding the words "retarded" seem to work).

[Swat]

Hey, everyone knows that the companation of a stylus, joystick, steering wheel and pedals make for the best control system on any fps.

I agree. Throw in two input devices that your grandma uses to send you emails, and it would be even better. :D

[Wedge]

It's been my experience that anyone taking a side in the whole pc vs. console rarely does it based on true merits of either, but on what that person owns. Same think with Xbox vs. PS2, or DS vs. PSP. People don't like being told they made the wrong choice.

I am 2 years out of college and thus can afford a nice PC and all the consoles...the only people that I ever see get into PC vs console arguments are people that own one or the other. Sure, I might prefer the PC for FPS games (personal preference), each system has it's merits...but I'm also not going to try to tell anyone that Halo isn't any good, or that putting it on the PC would automatically make it better.

Post more often, please. Posts like these help me keep my sanity.

[Goronmon]

An advanced physics engine is essential in the next-generation. This will become as important as graphics, sound and gameplay.
QFT <extra characters>

[Goronmon]

is that why you gave it "two thumbs down?"
Prolly having more to do with the price tag than anything else.

[kid cabelgo]

Lets see -- the only way the gameplay on a PC can be a challenge is if they cheat. Have you ever fired a gun? It is hard to aim, fire and maintain a straight shot. So they make the AI much better than they really would be. You aren't going to hit shit firing from the hip in real life.

A Control pad requires slightly more skill to aim and fire.

So I guess your improved gameplay is just AI that are snipers. GG.

I guess everyone who enjoys FPS titles on consoles are retarded. Awesome.

Edit: In case you have never fired a weapon -- movies are not real. Watch the Marine training on the military channel, talk to a police officer, talk to a military person -- firing a weapon is hard. Being an awesome shot in a PC game is not real life. To make firing a weapon hard on a PC and even a console they have to add all sorts of funky controls -- hold your breath, crouch, lay down, etc... as they try to make it more realistic.

Having a M4, 2 9MM and a 22 I know firing a weapon is hard and prefer the console experince to just seeing how fast I can move my cursor while I hold down my crouch key.

There's a military channel?

Oh, and BTW, shooting an alien with a vibrating controller is not real life either, but maybe i'm just splicing hairs here.

EDIT: Just wanted to point out that I spend equal time between Battlefield 2 on my PC and Halo 2 on my xbox.

[Citizen Philip]

They should release the psychic control helmets the airforce is hiding in area 51, not only will it level the playing field, you can look like a dork too.

[Schnoogs]

Why don't you just play blindfolded if you really want a challenge?

Post of the year!!!

[Rirath]

I really don't know how this became a controller vs kb/m argument... but meh. From playing Oblivion on both I can say that

1) I control a lot better / sharper with a keyboard / mouse.
2) The fights feel a lot more action packed with a controller.

But most important to me is

3) I'm sure that, like the Xbox, a 3rd party will someday release an adapter.

[Wolfgang]

There's a military channel?

Oh, and BTW, shooting an alien with a vibrating controller is not real life either, but maybe i'm just splicing hairs here.

EDIT: Just wanted to point out that I spend equal time between Battlefield 2 on my PC and Halo 2 on my xbox.
http://www.militarychannel.com/

I didn't say that a control pad is real life, in fact in a later post I say neither represents anything close to real. Having said that the ability to scroll quickly with the mouse is much easier than a joypad so the joypad's difficulty would be *closer* to the real thing. Neither are that close of course.

Thanks for being a sarcastic ass though.

[bapenguin]

So if you have such a distaste for them, why would you post this as your comment to a rather innocuous news item?

Because a 300 dollar add in card for physics is lame.

[thewayistao]

Learn2read in the future.

The 360 does support USB keyboards, but currently mice do not work is my understanding.

On a side note: I prefer a control pad vs kb/m. The kb/m makes it too easy. Shooting a gun is hard and a control pad makes it a lot harder than just twirling a mouse around. You kd/m players vs a control pad player and it is too easy. GRAW on the 360 would be so simple with a kb/m setup. It is a lot easier to use and therefore I am starting to prefer the control pad just simply for the challenge.

You dont understand how hard PC FPS games can get if you think kb/m makes it too easy. I really hope you meant that it'd make console fps too easy, even though you referanced CS in a later post, because anyone who's played a game as hard as CPMA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge_ProMode_Arena) knows that having kb/m can allow for Much harder games that would be impossible with a joypad.

Also, out of curiosity are there any fps that work with a joypad but wouldnt work with kb/m?

[UnderHero5]

Having said that the ability to scroll quickly with the mouse is much easier than a joypad so the joypad's difficulty would be *closer* to the real thing. Neither are that close of course.
Okay, I am NOT trying to argue here, I don't care who likes what input device. I just wanted to point this one thing out.
If the only problem you have with a mouse is the "ability to scroll quickly"... I just wanted to point out that every PC fps I've ever played has an option for "Mouse Sensitivity" that would quickly solve that problem for you.
That said, use whatever you want as an input device.
It should also be noted that one CAN use a controller on PC games if they choose.

[Wolfgang]

Okay, I am NOT trying to argue here, I don't care who likes what input device. I just wanted to point this one thing out.
If the only problem you have with a mouse is the "ability to scroll quickly"... I just wanted to point out that every PC fps I've ever played has an option for "Mouse Sensitivity" that would quickly solve that problem for you.
That said, use whatever you want as an input device.
It should also be noted that one CAN use a controller on PC games if they choose.

That doesn't change the people you are playing. It would help in Single player, but does not help in multiplayer. It is like surfing a webpage FPS on PCs -- how fast can you click on a link?

You dont understand how hard PC FPS games can get if you think kb/m makes it too easy. I really hope you meant that it'd make console fps too easy, even though you referanced CS in a later post, because anyone who's played a game as hard as CPMA knows that having kb/m can allow for Much harder games that would be impossible with a joypad.

Also, out of curiosity are there any fps that work with a joypad but wouldnt work with kb/m?

I have beaten every major PC FPS from Doom to FEAR. The only way PC games get harder (as I have stated) is by making the AI way too good of shots, sending waves of enemies at you or the enemy having area effect weapons. So yes a PC allows for a harder game, but it does that by making games even less realistic.

Why do you think squad AI buddies in FPS games are not accurate? It is A) to make the player the most important person and B) that is actually realistc, you can't run and gun in real life.

Because of the kb/m combo PC games have to make the enemy AI all marksmen because the player is one. That is why in PC games you have an enemy sniper just standing and firing -- that would not happen in real life.

If you took GRAW on the 360 and put it as is on the PC -- it would be stupid easy.

Anything the control pad can do so can the mouse, that is really not the point of my arguement. The mouse IS better for an interface -- hence the reason we surf the web with a kb/m instead of a kb with control pad.

I have nothing against PC FPS games -- I prepurchased Sin already and will get the HL 2 episodes, etc...

Hard PC games are not harder because they have better level design, more detailed settings, etc... they are harder cause they make the AI better shots.

[Steele Johnson]

Regarding the neverending controller vs kb/mouse argument, I'd say it's up to the game design. If they're going to add any realism to the weapons, they should add variables that effect breathing, drag, and cone width. On the pc side, the variables are increased a bit.

If the designers create an fps that allows split second, pixel perfect precision when using a mouse, then it's a bad game design, IMO.

Personally, when I play a pc game that has pixel perfect precision, I get bored really fast. I too like a challenge when firing a weapon, so a controller makes up for the crappy game design, especially when you know everyone has the same handicap.

Something to keep in mind is that with a pc game, the guy with the faster video card and cpu is going to have the advantage when it comes to aiming (less screen lag than the lower end machines), so even that can be a problem when playing multiplayer fps's. With that said, I at least have a feeling of balance when I play a console fps online.

[Borys]

Another PC advantage bites the dust.

KB&M is the only pro left.

[Vash-HT]

I think comparing kb/m to a controller is pointless unless fps eventually become cross platform. I find it easier to play with a kb/m, and i prefer it because i become frustrated getting killed in situations where i would do soo much better with a kb/m. Of course i don't think the controller used for the game will make or break it, if its a good game it will be good with either controller i think.

However, I can't see your point of challenging yourself by using a controller. If you're referring to single player it may make sense, but most games have game difficulties that can be very challenging. In multiplayer theres always bound to be someone as good or better than you.

Also, turning up the difficulty often makes it more realistic in my mind. Not always is the enemies accuracy turned up, but the damage of their weapons. Of course in real life you can take many shots without dying, so of course turning up their damage would make it more realistic.

I'm not trying to flame or anything, but your argument kind of comes off as elitist, like you're too good for kb/m, and if its too hard for you too beat with a kb/m then they're obviously cheating somehow and its not realistic. Im sure you don't mean all of that, but im just saying it comes off as that.

[SlamDunk]

Lots of talk out of one year old news :)

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/news.php?aid=9040

[Morratut]

This is just like the Aegia agreement that Sony already has. It's software running on one of the cpus. It's running in software, it won't be as good as a hardware solution which costs a lot of money.

I should have known this would turn into yet another PC vs Console discussion.

I think we should keep a running counter on the front page from now on.

"EvilAvatar.com, now serving over 1374 PC vs. Console Flame wars!"

I know what you mean. These constant struggles for for controller domination are lame. I'm glad I can use both well :)

[phantomhitman]

so cell factor was using this? that demo/trailer was pretty awesome.

[Kem0sabe]

Cell factor was using the addon card, at least i think it was.

[Malovech]

Anything the control pad can do so can the mouse, that is really not the point of my arguement. The mouse IS better for an interface -- hence the reason we surf the web with a kb/m instead of a kb with control pad.


I would agree with you on this statement in every regard except for aiming a gun. I have fired guns in real life and I can tell you that short of having a lightgun or similar device, the mouse is the most accurate representation of aim. Simply stated: the act of aiming and pointing are very similar. Having to slowly drag my reticle around with my thumb does not approximate the same feeling as lining up a target through my gunsights.

Also the argument that "supernaturally aiming AI" makes a FPS more challenging is simply not true. What makes an FPS more challenging on a PC is simulated recoil, windage, weapon position (iron sights or from the hip), range etc. Those are factors that they simply cannot add to control pad-based FPSes because it would make the game ridiculously hard to play and essentially no fun. KB/m trumps the control-pad in this regard and until there is a VR room with an actual rifle or pistol that you hold in your hands, it will not be eclipsed as the most authentic experience.

[Wolfgang]

Also the argument that "supernaturally aiming AI" makes a FPS more challenging is simply not true. What makes an FPS more challenging on a PC is simulated recoil, windage, weapon position (iron sights or from the hip), range etc. Those are factors that they simply cannot add to control pad-based FPSes because it would make the game ridiculously hard to play and essentially no fun. KB/m trumps the control-pad in this regard and until there is a VR room with an actual rifle or pistol that you hold in your hands, it will not be eclipsed as the most authentic experience.

Those features are in every console FPS I have played recently. CoD 2 on 360, GRAW, etc... The difference between most PC to 360 ports is a usually the 360 will help auto aim to an extent which can be turned off.

[MStiles]

This is not news. This is a press release issued to get news sites to give them free press, and it worked.

Ageia has had their software-based physics (also called PhysX, just like the hardware card) running on the PC, PS3, and 360 for quite some time. It's the physics engine used by Unreal Engine 3, and we've all seen Gears of War.

They're busy optimizing its routines for both the PS3 and 360 to better make use of their unique CPU architectures, and to add some new features (cloth-on-cloth collision, tearing cloth, and so on). Sure they're going to show it off at E3, but in truth it's nothing new.

[thewayistao]

I have beaten every major PC FPS from Doom to FEAR. The only way PC games get harder (as I have stated) is by making the AI way too good of shots, sending waves of enemies at you or the enemy having area effect weapons. So yes a PC allows for a harder game, but it does that by making games even less realistic.

Games are supposed to be fun. On a competitive level, there is no AI. There are no waves of enemies. It is an equal playing field.

"If there were a small set of professional rules that I agree with in theory but have chosen not to pursue because they conflict with more common play, then an official "pro mode" might make sense. Any other suggestions along those lines?"
John Carmack, September 1999


Hard PC games are not harder because they have better level design, more detailed settings, etc... they are harder cause they make the AI better shots.

The Hardest pc games require pinpoint, immediate precision. In Challenge "Pro Mode" Arena (http://www.promode.org), there is a strucurally rigid way to accelerate in the air. While you are doing this air acceleration, you cannot aim at the same time, so you must decide wether to move faster to the next powerup, or to take podshots at your enemy. It's possible to move faster than the plasmagun from quake3, and aiming takes masterfull skill.

That said, I suck at the game, but it makes it clear that m/kb doesnt just make games too easy, but that games can be made that have difficulty far surpassing that of dual analog fps.