Oblivion Gender Bias Concerns

[Liquidize105]

GWJ's Press Pass blog has a quick feature on the "Gender Bias Concerns" with Oblivion. (http://www.passthepress.com/?p=251) It appears that a few game-playing feminists have found a bent in the design that perceivably reinforces their notion of gender oppression.

Here is a quote from the Prima Official Game Guide for Oblivion, from the section called "Race, Sex, and Attributes" on page 6:

"Sadly, only three races offer females with power design advantages. . . In all other cases, to maximize a given race choice for its best-suited character role, pick the male. Where the stats differ between these sexes, the male gets the better benefit from the difference."

I know it isn't everyone's fantasy that there should be more gender equality but it is one of my fantasies. It would have been a small thing for the developers to change, but knowing that my choice to play a female RPG character puts me at a disadvantage at the start of the game makes it a little less fun for me. I'll forget about it soon enough since I will be having a great time otherwise, but for once, wouldn't it be nice to be able to start out on equal footing, if only in Tamriel?
Bethesda's official stance (or just, you know, their intent for the game) is "more diversity."

Bethesda: We wanted to have it play slightly different if you wanted it to. Male Redguards are, I think, stronger than their female counterparts, while females have a higher personality. So if you want to play a warrior Redguard, you might go male, but if you were playing a class that focused on persuasion and getting people to like you, you might go for a female. [It] just gives a little more choice to the player, that’s all. Most folks, honestly, won’t notice the difference. I paid no attention to it whatsoever when making my current character. I might have been better off as a female for my class, but I wanted to play as a male, so I did.
The curious thing is: With Oblivion's heavy combat leanings (melee/archery/magic/combinations), more points toward intelligence/speechcraft is infact not a disadvantage at all, or the disadvantage is nigh insignificant with all things considered.

I happen to play a Redguard female (Redguard/Bard/Shadow), and apart from the squeamish "ah!" from getting hit real hard that I find annoying on occasions, everything is great. It's my choice, I made it, so I'm not bothered by the fact that I'm not the strongest fighter (in a singleplayer game no less).

Reasonable feminists would agree: Men and women are inherently unequal, and that male is simply more tailored for certain tasks while female others. Am I being sexist for pointing out the obvious physical disparity?

[Blade]

You should be burned at the stake.

[MosBen]

Ok, now I haven't read the articles, so I'm just making the argument based on what I read here.

While perhaps there's a certain practicality to admitting that humans on Earth are perhaps unequal physically, why is that true in Tamariel? Just because they look like us generally doesn't necessarily mean they have to conform in all regards. Putting that aside, what about the nonhuman-like species? Again, I don't know, this might already be the case, but why aren't Orc women stronger than the men? It's certainly the case in the animal kingdom that there are species where the female is physically dominant, why not in the game?

It's a fantasy game, are we so limited in our imaginations that we can't concoct a world where the gender politics are markedly different from our own?

[Mozgus]

Bitches. Get back in the cabin and bake me my bread and wash my kilts. You'll level up your Wench skill class faster!

[MosBen]

Oh, and one more thing, a natural bonus to something as socialized, and completely not inate, as speechcraft strikes me as somewhat insulting to women.

[Captain Awesome]

Reasonable feminists would agree: Men and women are inherently unequal, and that male is simply more tailored for certain tasks while female others. Am I being sexist for pointing out the obvious physical disparity?

You're bringing in real-life logistics into a fantasy game filled with creatures made of ice, fire, tiger and lizard people?

Bit of a stretch, no?

[Liquidize105]

MosBen: That's why you should read at least the quotes. 3 races offer "power design advantages" for female.

But if I wanted to power design my character in, say, magic, then I'd be partial to all magical attributes - race/gender/sign notwithstanding.

You're bringing in real-life lagistics into a fantasy game filled with creatures made of ice, fire, tiger and lizard people?

Bit of a stretch, no?
I'm only following their example of involving real life into fantasy and videogames.

Does a videogame's portrayal matter, or doesn't it? I'd like to think that it doesn't, but it seems to matter to them.

[F3nyx]

Ok, now I haven't read the articles, so I'm just making the argument based on what I read here.

While perhaps there's a certain practicality to admitting that humans on Earth are perhaps unequal physically, why is that true in Tamariel? Just because they look like us generally doesn't necessarily mean they have to conform in all regards. Putting that aside, what about the nonhuman-like species? Again, I don't know, this might already be the case, but why aren't Orc women stronger than the men? It's certainly the case in the animal kingdom that there are species where the female is physically dominant, why not in the game?

It's a fantasy game, are we so limited in our imaginations that we can't concoct a world where the gender politics are markedly different from our own?I don't quite understand your argument here. Do game developers have a responsibility to correct the "wrongs" of the real world? Fantasy doesn't necessarily mean Reality 2.0.

[Captain Awesome]

Also needs more DOA boob-jiggling technology.

[Zeal]

This is about as funny as the gay chick suing Blizzard.

[rubek]

My female character sounds like she has testes every time I fall down a hill or get clobbered. No speechcraft bonus for me.

[Busted_Astromech]

I don't quite understand your argument here. Do game developers have a responsibility to correct the "wrongs" of the real world? Fantasy doesn't necessarily mean Reality 2.0.

Well, note that most fantasy settings (including Tamriel) have, to a great extent, gender parity, with female warriors. Though ostensibly set in a fantasy medieval Europe developers generally choose to make it a more equitable one.

Also, I should mention that most pen and paper RPGs abandoned gender differences years ago. It's generally considered in bad taste, which is how I regard this: silly, not important, but not how it should be either.

[fndarkone]

black people are more suited to tropical environments than white people. omg teh racism!

[JazGalaxy]

You're bringing in real-life logistics into a fantasy game filled with creatures made of ice, fire, tiger and lizard people?

Bit of a stretch, no?


Well the frustrating thing is, you are arguing against the very concept of "female". Men didn't MAKE the rules, they just exist. Women who argue against femininity are arguing against genetics itself. To be female is to be inherently weaker than your equal male counterpart. It's just the way it is. I'm an artist, and I have to study anatomy in great detail. I don't think I ever realized before hand just how different men and women are, and how much women are NOT meant for physical activity. Can they overcome their natural handicaps? Sure. Are some woman built more manly?

The simple fact is, if you are going to have "men" and "women" in Tamariel, then, yes, women should be weaker in equal circumstances lest they not be women and be something else.

(when I say equal circumstances, I mean to say that I'm well aware that Mia Ham could play rings around me in soccer, and some female wrestler could probably lift me over her head, but no woman could beat her genetic equal in anything physical, I believe.

[TheBrainKills]

Actually this is one of the only games where gender makes a difference in a positive way. I always chose a female character because if you are playing 3rd person and you are hetro, do you really want to stare at a guy's ass. But in Oblivion if you are a warrior then you chose male, if you are a Magic user then female. As in real life.

[Bumbuliuz]

This is just rubbish. Much a do about nothing!

[Heretic Machine]

I complained about this a bit before the game came out... It is SILLY to make two different sets of stats for men and women. If it's so insignificant, then why did they bother doing it to begin with? As for the actual stats, personality/speechcraft is basically worthless in this game. I used to be able to use it fairly well in Morrowind, but here it's not only quite useless in most situations, but even to see it's full advantages you don't have to raise the skill very high.

I'm not saying this would be something to boycott the game over, but there is definetly something screwy over at Bethesda. Maybe I just need to buy some Horse Armor and get that special patch made to my brain so that I don't question decisions like this anymore.

[whoamg]

Are you fucking kidding me? This game is reinforcing negative MALE stereotypes, not female. The fact is, men are stronger than women. Of course, men get the shaft when it comes to the "intelligence" area. Showing men as unthinking brutes just because they are physically superior to women.

[notcivx]

Boy this sure is news worthy!

[Nichols]

What are women doing playing Oblivion anyway? Shouldn't they be playing Yahoo Poker or PuzzlePirates?

[maharahaj]

Actually this is one of the only games where gender makes a difference in a positive way. I always chose a female character because if you are playing 3rd person and you are hetro, do you really want to stare at a guy's ass. But in Oblivion if you are a warrior then you chose male, if you are a Magic user then female. As in real life.

funniest thing I've read in a long time...

[hund_]

I always chose a female character because if you are playing 3rd person and you are hetro, do you really want to stare at a guy's ass.
same reason i perfered female in heretic2 bladematch ;)

[MaiXu]

Personally, I'm offended that Oblivion's developers made all male characters big dumb strong oxes with no social skills. Dammit, I wanna charm the pants off of everyone, and now I've gotta resort to being a chick!? BULLOCKS!

[Banacek]

Show me in those links where an actual "feminist" has come out against this game. No story here.

[VenomUSMC]

Wow they made it so there is a difference to being a "different" sex? amazing... cry more b/c you want to play a girl and she isn't as strong as a guy?
haha

[Panda Love]

Sooooo they did this in Morrowind, but no one cared

[dotbomb]

All I know is the female woodelf looks like hulk hogan... wtf?

[PXG 360]

Ummmm....Another instance where idiots have to FIND something to get angry at. This is ridiculous. Hey, I'm not pissed off that all the Redguard bandits have afros (which they do). I wouldn't give two shits if they said, "What up dawg?" or, "Fo shizzle". So when it comes to all three gamer/feminazis out there, whoever you are, shut the fuck up and stop your nonsensical bitching!

[51|RandoM]

It is a game, not a gender equality statement for fuck's sake.

For better or worse, that is how the sexes and the races in Tamriel pan out. If you don't like it, DONT FUCKING GO TO TAMRIEL. Activists are bad enough in real life, but when they want to start mandating my fantasy life, they need to wake the fuck up and realize I'm captain of the good ship random and they can park their bullshit before boarding.

[Achilles]

The feminists are mad at Oblivion. As opposed to like God of War. Ah well, generally speaking that movement doesn’t have a lot of credibility anymore. I agree with equity feminism, but you don’t hear much about that group because they already accomplished their goals (equal choice, equal pay, equal opportunity), and now they spend their time trying to convince people that not all feminists are crazy. The other groups spend their time trying to polarize people so they can continue to exist in my opinion.

[F3nyx]

The feminists are mad at Oblivion. As opposed to like God of War.They don't seem very mad if you read the blog posts linked from the article -- just a bit miffed at what seems to them to be an inconsistent design choice. I'm sure they'd have lots to say about God of War, but they don't bother, because it has no appeal for them in the first place -- the whole game is wrong, not just a little detail. They're being completely reasonable.

[Rirath]

Oh for crying out loud people, IT'S A GAME! I've never seen so much pointless bellyaching over such inane things... Oh wait, yes I have... on the official forums.

I play a female assassin-ish type and WANTED the female advantages.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

Just proves yet again that people are stupid...

[Heretic Machine]

All gamers are little bitches that can't handle someone making a negative comment about something they enjoy.

Discuss.

[Rirath]

All gamers are little bitches that can't handle someone making a negative comment about something they enjoy.

Flamebait generalizations suck. Discuss'D.

[bone_matrix]

All gamers are little bitches that can't handle someone making a negative comment about something they enjoy.

Discuss.


I'll discuss my foot up your ass!!

Sorry, Bender moment, meant no real harm. (Netflixed every season of Futurama recently) :D

Anyway, I don't think we can't handle someone saying that what Bethesda did is wrong, we just can't handle that they are nitpicking that much. At least, thats the way I look at it. *shrug*

[Deadend]

Why are there no female guards in town? In my estimation, Tamerial has about 4 men for every woman, and no children or babies either.

[Heretic Machine]

I'll discuss my foot up your ass!!

Sorry, Bender moment, meant no real harm. (Netflixed every season of Futurama recently) :D

Anyway, I don't think we can't handle someone saying that what Bethesda did is wrong, we just can't handle that they are nitpicking that much. At least, thats the way I look at it. *shrug*

Nit picking? It's a valid point. The characters have different STATS, an important part of the game. What happens when someone points this out? Gamers start spamming the topic with crap like "Stop crying! You people are teh sux! God, cry some more!"

This is why our hobby will NEVER be taken seriously. There just aren't a lot of model train builders who act like spoiled three year olds.

[GoblinToe]

Well, I don't know what to say really, other than this is retarded.

Ok, I could see this being brought up in a game like WoW, possibly. In that scenario, where you pay a monthly fee, and stats do make a big difference. It's just common sense to let everyone start equal, and build their character from there, making changes along the way that create uniqueness. Gender should largely be aesthetic.

But for Oblivon? Geez, it's single player already! Just mod the crap anyway you want it!

Pippi Longstolking will kick all your asses!!

[Royal Fool]

You know what? When I started playing the game, I picked a female. Why? Well, because I usually pick them when playing games, I just like it. I had no idea about any advantages/disadvantages to being a specific gender, but I really wouldn't have cared either.

And now that I've read this, I still don't give a damn. Who cares? It's Bethesda's design decision, they did it for a reason. You have the potential to reach all the maximum skill levels, no matter what race, class or gender you play. It's the way the game is built. And if you don't like missing out on attribute multipliers, use a mod that changes attributes to be based on skills. Problem solved.

Someone ought to make an RPG where you play a lifeform that has 5 different genders. Now that would make for some really freaky discussions! Who mates with who? Do people get offended if gender #3 fucks gender #5? Oh dear...

Why are there no female guards in town? In my estimation, Tamerial has about 4 men for every woman, and no children or babies either.

The kids/babies/elders issue is something actually worth criticizing.

[TrackZero]

I complained about this a bit before the game came out... It is SILLY to make two different sets of stats for men and women. If it's so insignificant, then why did they bother doing it to begin with?

They just explained that, maybe you missed it. They did it so you can have even more variance in the character creation process. It had nothing to do with a statement about sex.

Hell, I play a male mage. Shouldn't I be complaining because a female mage would have more magicka than me? Maybe, but I'm not, because I'm not an over sensitive politically correct douche (no offense to present company intended).


The hilarious part is how I haven't heard anyone talk about the fact that Dark Elves in the game are considered lazy goofoffs that need to be enslaved and beaten into doing their work (though I can only assume it's because noone else is bothering to actually read all those books laying around the game world). They're making a total commentary parallel for black slavery and how it's acceptable. Yet people are whining about differences in gender stats? Grow up.

[Heretic Machine]

And now that I've read this, I still don't give a damn. Who cares? It's Bethesda's design decision, they did it for a reason.

I hear Sony made some design decisions (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=6428) when it came to the PSP that a lot of people seem to complain about. Guess they should just quit their bitching, huh? Derek Smart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Smart) is big on design decisions too, maybe you've also heard of John Romero (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Romero)?

We should not question design decisions in a time of war, support your developers!

[TrackZero]

Someone ought to make an RPG where you play a lifeform that has 5 different genders. Now that would make for some really freaky discussions! Who mates with who? Do people get offended if gender #3 fucks gender #5? Oh dear...


No, only if gender #3 actually wants to marry gender #5. Then gender #2 writes their congressman.

[Heretic Machine]

They just explained that, maybe you missed it. They did it so you can have even more variance in the character creation process. It had nothing to do with a statement about sex.

Hell, I play a male mage. Shouldn't I be complaining because a female mage would have more magicka than me? Maybe, but I'm not, because I'm not an over sensitive politically correct douche (no offense to present company intended).


The hilarious part is how I haven't heard anyone talk about the fact that Dark Elves in the game are considered lazy goofoffs that need to be enslaved and beaten into doing their work (though I can only assume it's because noone else is bothering to actually read all those books laying around the game world). They're making a total commentary parallel for black slavery and how it's acceptable. Yet people are whining about differences in gender stats? Grow up.

1. This has nothing to do with being politically correct. This has everything to do with them making a "design decision" specifically to stir up some minor contraversy to garner publicity for their game. I have no doubt that this is only one of many things that they put in just to try to get some contraversy (horse anuses, female breasts being textured under bras... etc)

2. I don't see that happening with the Dark Elves. They are slavers, if you know anything about TES lore, and slavery has just been outlawed in Morrowind. They may be talking more about how lazy Dark Elves were for using slaves to begin with, I dunno. I doubt it's anything that deep.

[Busted_Astromech]

Or are you talking about the "Guide to..." books, which are all written by a racist, religious nutjob?

It's not a statement about the developer's beliefs if a character says it. It reflects the developer if it's a choice directly from them. This is why most RPGs got out of this years ago: gender disparity adds little, is debatable as to whether its realistic, and gets people angry. Better to just leave it alone.

[TrackZero]

1. This has nothing to do with being politically correct. This has everything to do with them making a "design decision" specifically to stir up some minor contraversy to garner publicity for their game. I have no doubt that this is only one of many things that they put in just to try to get some contraversy (horse anuses, female breasts being textured under bras... etc)

2. I don't see that happening with the Dark Elves. They are slavers, if you know anything about TES lore, and slavery has just been outlawed in Morrowind. They may be talking more about how lazy Dark Elves were for using slaves to begin with, I dunno. I doubt it's anything that deep.

1. Wow. You're actually serious. Sorry, I can't see someone saying "Yeah, let's piss off 50% of our potential customers for the possibility someone may notice our stats are slightly different.".

2. Go read the actual books in Oblivion. Especially the outside views about Queen Barenziah, or the Dark Elves used to dig the tunnels through the Dwemer ruins. It is most definitely there.

[TrackZero]

Or are you talking about the "Guide to..." books, which are all written by a racist, religious nutjob?

It's not a statement about the developer's beliefs if a character says it. It reflects the developer if it's a choice directly from them. This is why most RPGs got out of this years ago: gender disparity adds little, is debatable as to whether its realistic, and gets people angry. Better to just leave it alone.

No, I wasn't talking about the Guide to's, which I know were written by a nutjob. See the post I just made.

[Heretic Machine]

1. Wow. You're actually serious. Sorry, I can't see someone saying "Yeah, let's piss off 50% of our potential customers for the possibility someone may notice our stats are slightly different.".

Except they know that there is no way in hell that 50% of their customer base is made up of women. Hell, they'd kill to have 5% of their customer base be women. This strategy isn't going to piss of most of their customers, because most of their customers are males with the mind-set of an adolescent (if not the physical traits, and age of). But they knew that it COULD attract the ire of the feminist movement, and it COULD get them more publicity for their game. Which it did, since we are now talking in a news post about it.

Is your explanation for this the inclusion of more so-called variety? How can it add variety if the stat differences are so insignificant? That explanation makes no sense, what-so-ever, and anyone with half a brain could see that.

[Citizen Philip]

This is the age of Political Correctness: Case in point, Dungeons & Dragons +3.0 and all the D&D computer titles have the PC line "Men and Women are the exact same thing, as far as attributes go: we have enough PR problems, without getting ultra-conservative christian feminists coming after us too." And then pedantically, in almost every FUCKING EXAMPLE used in any chapter on almost any given page any charater described is female; as if they are going out of their way to pretend that the core audience of D&D products aren't male geeks with an extra helping of social ineptness.

[TrackZero]

Except they know that there is no way in hell that 50% of their customer base is made up of women. Hell, they'd kill to have 5% of their customer base be women. This strategy isn't going to piss of most of their customers, because most of their customers are males with the mind-set of an adolescent (if not the physical traits, and age of). But they knew that it COULD attract the ire of the feminist movement, and it COULD get them more publicity for their game.

Is your explanation for this the inclusion of more so-called variety? How can it add variety if the stat differences are so insignificant? That explanation makes no sense, what-so-ever, and anyone with half a brain could see that.

Once again, you keep missing things already said. I said POTENTIAL customers. Try calming down and reading peoples posts in here before jumping in to prove you're "right" about something.

It's not my explanation, it's theirs. On the FIRST POST OF THIS ARTICLE. Fuck, go back and read. And yes, I do agree with them, it's some variance I don't mind having in the game.

I don't know where in your mixed up world you confused it down over the years that giving people equal opportunity regardless of sex, race, etc changed into meaning that people have equal ability. Those are two seperate things. So even if Bethesda were bluntly saying "yes, women aren't as physically strong as men, but they're more socialy adapted", that's just pointing out the obvious, and no, I wouldn't give a shit.

[Heretic Machine]

Once again, you keep missing things already said. I said POTENTIAL customers.

Except, as I explained, they aren't potential customers. You know that, I know that, and Bethesda knows that. They aren't potential customers any more than a poor ethiopian boy is a potential customer for Heavenly Ham.

It's not my explanation, it's theirs. On the FIRST POST OF THIS ARTICLE. Fuck, go back and read. And yes, I do agree with them, it's some variance I don't mind having in the game.[/qutoe]

You agree with them, thus it's the explanation you have alligned yourself with, so it's YOUR explanation. It can't add variance if it's insignificant, and if it's not insignificant then people have a right to complain.

[quote=Trackzero]I don't know where in your mixed up world you confused it down over the years that giving people equal opportunity regardless of sex, race, etc changed into meaning that people have equal ability. Those are two seperate things. So even if Bethesda were bluntly saying "yes, women aren't as physically strong as men, but they're more socialy adapted", that's just pointing out the obvious, and no, I wouldn't give a shit.

Since when did making gender differences matter in a game, make that game more fun? And yes, you obviously don't give a shit, just like I don't give a shit about your opinion.

Try calming down and reading peoples posts in here before jumping in to prove you're "right" about something.

Try not using forum cliches about the "angry poster" everytime someone disagrees with you.

[Busted_Astromech]

And then pedantically, in almost every FUCKING EXAMPLE used in any chapter on almost any given page any charater described is female; as if they are going out of their way to pretend that the core audience of D&D products aren't male geeks with an extra helping of social ineptness.

They alternate between male and female pronouns. Say the first prestige class uses a female pronoun, the next will use a male pronoun. Simple as that.

Look, I'm not going to go over every single argument used for the forced change in pronouns but I will say this: it is very hard to defend the use of exclusively male pronouns on its merits. One can only defend it from a position of comfort and convenience. Now would you like things done the way they always were, or the way they should have been done from the beginning?

Yes, these are small things. Yes, no one is getting hurt by them. But if they could be more fair, why not make it more fair? It's not difficult.

[Citizen Philip]

They alternate between male and female pronouns. Say the first prestige class uses a female pronoun, the next will use a male pronoun. Simple as that.

Look, I'm not going to go over every single argument used for the forced change in pronouns but I will say this: it is very hard to defend the use of exclusively male pronouns on its merits. One can only defend it from a position of comfort and convenience. Now would you like things done the way they always were, or the way they should have been done from the beginning?

Yes, these are small things. Yes, no one is getting hurt by them. But if they could be more fair, why not make it more fair? It's not difficult.

I have no problem with fair use of pronouns for either gender, but really.. I mean really. If you read the corebooks their idea of gender equality is to beat you over the head with it. Bludgeoning damage.

Btw: I've always liked your nickname, ***** stars.

[TrackZero]

Except, as I explained, they aren't potential customers. You know that, I know that, and Bethesda knows that. They aren't potential customers any more than a poor ethiopian boy is a potential customer for Heavenly Ham.

That's priceless. You're now stereotyping women by saying they wouldn't be interested in this product, yet you're offended that in said product, they might notice they have slightly different stats. Mmmmm, hypocrisy.

You agree with them, thus it's the explanation you have alligned yourself with, so it's YOUR explanation. It can't add variance if it's insignificant, and if it's not insignificant then people have a right to complain.

I never said it was insignificant (as I noted it affects my male mage), I said it's not something to get worked up about unless you have a chip on your shoulder.


Since when did making gender differences matter in a game, make that game more fun? And yes, you obviously don't give a shit, just like I don't give a shit about your opinion.

Nice reason to give me to respond there (since you don't care what I say). Though I agree with you, it doesn't make the game more fun. But it doesn't make it less fun either. It's just an element in the games rules, not worth going into this degree of discussion over. I'm just playing along since I'm on night shift right now with some time to kill. ;)

Try not using forum cliches about the "angry poster" everytime someone disagrees with you.

I don't do it everytime someone disagrees with me. I'm doing it right now, with you, because you are (or at least were, as these these replies seem more thought out).

[Ghost_Saint]

You know what I say to those feminists. First amendment rights!!! OH! What now?!?! Can't touch me, not that a fat angry lesbian would ever want to touch a guy.

If you really really get pissed off about this, you probably don't have many not-pissed off moments in your life.


go mod the game, no one's going to stop you. You can even call it the, 'Bethesda are bigoted male-supremists who don't support equal gender rights' mod.

[Grifter]

I stoped reading after perigon started spewing bullshit on how Bethesda made these decisions to "stir up some minor contraversy." You people really need to find a life outside of these forums, it's pathetic. You honestly think Oblivion needs contraversy to sell, this isn't GTA. Who cares about stats, who fucking cares about a fantasy world that had slavery or a not so happy history. It is just a game; play it, don't play it, no one fucking cares but debating the political correctness of a video game like Oblivion is just sad.

This world is an unfair, violent, ugly place some times and this reality is going to blead into the fiction we create if you can't handle it find a hobby where you can lock yourself in a box and hide from the rest of the world.

[TrackZero]

You know what I say to those feminists. First amendment rights!!! OH! What now?!?! Can't touch me, not that a fat angry lesbian would ever want to touch a guy.

If you really really get pissed off about this, you probably don't have many not-pissed off moments in your life.

Bang on. Though I'm Canadian, so technically I don't have free speech, so I gotta watch out.

go mod the game, no one's going to stop you. You can even call it the, 'Bethesda are bigoted male-supremists who don't support equal gender rights' mod.

Dude, someone should TOTALLY do that mod. Along with a "Dark Elves are people too!" one.

[Heretic Machine]

Though I agree with you, it doesn't make the game more fun.

I'm glad you agree. The argument is over, this was a bad design decision. Any time spent on something that doesn't make the game more fun is a waste of time. Especially since they could of been working on that fancy $2 horse armor and of included it in the game instead of charging us extra cash for it.

Who cares about stats

You're so right, stats don't matter in an RPG! What was I thinking?!

[Savok]

1. This has nothing to do with being politically correct. This has everything to do with them making a "design decision" specifically to stir up some minor contraversy to garner publicity for their game. I have no doubt that this is only one of many things that they put in just to try to get some contraversy (horse anuses, female breasts being textured under bras... etc)
This has everything to do with the previous games, this is how it's always been in TES games, this has nothing to do with feminists or the stirring of their insanity. Believe it or not, TES used to be a lot deeper then it is now, if they even out the stats for TES5 we'll likely end up with something so bland it might as well be a NWN Official Campaign. Just so all you assholes are aware, the hard cap on natural stats is 100 for everyone, the potential strength of each gender is exactly the fucking same.

But it's good to have you back in form, Perigon, I've missed your moronic statments.

[TrackZero]

who fucking cares about a fantasy world that had slavery or a not so happy history. It is just a game; play it, don't play it, no one fucking cares but debating the political correctness of a video game like Oblivion is just sad.

This world is an unfair, violent, ugly place some times and this reality is going to blead into the fiction we create if you can't handle it find a hobby where you can lock yourself in a box and hide from the rest of the world.

Just to note. I don't really care about slavery being in Oblivion, I was just pointing out how funny it was that some people could get worked up over a minor sex based slant while ignoring all of the racism in the said same game world. ;)

[TrackZero]

I'm glad you agree. The argument is over, this was a bad design decision. Any time spent on something that doesn't make the game more fun is a waste of time. Especially since they could of been working on that fancy $2 horse armor and of included it in the game instead of charging us extra cash for it.

Nice to see every point I make, you simply erase and continue on your merry way. :)

Though maybe you're on to something here. What Oblivion should do is charge $5 for a patch to fix the sexual inequality of their game. Maybe that was their master plan all along! They'll get even more media attention from it!

[Heretic Machine]

But it's good to have you back in form, Perigon, I've missed your moronic statments.

It's good to have you back to doing nothing but flaming, Savok.

http://www.interpretivearson.com/gallery/albums/album04/flame.sized.jpg

[TrackZero]

This has everything to do with the previous games, this is how it's always been in TES games, this has nothing to do with feminists or the stirring of their insanity. Believe it or not, TES used to be a lot deeper then it is now, if they even out the stats for TES5 we'll likely end up with something so bland it might as well be a NWN Official Campaign. Just so all you assholes are aware, the hard cap on natural stats is 100 for everyone, the potential strength of each gender is exactly the fucking same.

But it's good to have you back in form, Perigon, I've missed your moronic statments.

Actually, someone made a nice patch to fix those racial stats!

http://www.tescreens.be/oblivionmodwiki/index.php/Racial_Bonus_Fix

Enjoy!

[MajSheppard]

I always play girls in FPS if its a choice. Less surface area to hit.

[Busted_Astromech]

I have no problem with fair use of pronouns for either gender, but really.. I mean really. If you read the corebooks their idea of gender equality is to beat you over the head with it. Bludgeoning damage.

Btw: I've always liked your nickname, ***** stars.
Well, thanks! When I thought of it it certainly sounded better than "Dolphin64X," which was by the moment growing more and more...12-year-old-boy-ish. It sounds ridiculous to my ears now. I had to think of a new name...something that wasn't fanboyish, something that wouldn't age, something that would define me, for years to come. Something...something Star Wars! And so I remembered the scene where Luke buys a bad droid from the Jawas and thought, "I want to be like that broken droid, just like him!" Voila.

Anyway, I agree that Wizards' use in D&D is noticable, in that you stop and notice it. I think part of the problem is that as soon as you begin reading a concept, being in D&D you imagine it to be male, when suddenly they're referring to a female and you must modify your mental image. However the use of exclusively male pronouns is something we've been trained to be accustomed to: those who grow up with this should have no problems accepting it.

Again, I need to emphasize that critics are right, it doesn't matter. But even a small thing can be made better.

While I'd consider myself a proponent of political correctness, there are many things I don't do. I usually refer to people as 'blacks' rather than "African-Americans" because the latter is rather silly-Africa forms no part of their identity or my label thereof. I don't approve of measures like ending hiding student achievement to favor those who don't achieve. As with anything, those who don't truly understand an idea corrupt it to be something idiotic. But the intentions, to end slurs hidden within our language, remain valid. And the use of exclusively male pronouns comes from the formation of the English language, when the role of women was minimalized. By introducing female pronouns we are not bending over backwards so no one gets hurt feelings, we are merely correcting a subtle injustice.

[Hemalin]

Where were these people when Pokemon came out? It was bad enough running around in the same area trying to find a rare pokemon, then when you get one it turns out to be female. Who wants a female when a male has higher attack?

[aversion2k]

I'm glad you agree. The argument is over, this was a bad design decision. Any time spent on something that doesn't make the game more fun is a waste of time. Especially since they could of been working on that fancy $2 horse armor and of included it in the game instead of charging us extra cash for it.

Horse armor would have been made by artists, stats are designed by the game designer. No matter what the designer was doing on the stats it has no impact on what the artists are doing. :P

I'm sure you know this, I'm just being annoying.

[Busted_Astromech]

Actually, someone made a nice patch to fix those racial stats!

http://www.tescreens.be/oblivionmodwiki/index.php/Racial_Bonus_Fix

Enjoy!

This actually sounds useful-you're mistaken though, that makes it so that the maximum potential of races is different, so that a High Elf, at max level, will be a better mage because said Altmer will have higher maximum skill levels in magic skills. Thus your race stat bonuses affect more than the early game.

[Heretic Machine]

Horse armor would have been made by artists, stats are designed by the game designer. No matter what the designer was doing on the stats it has no impact on what the artists are doing. :P

I'm sure you know this, I'm just being annoying.

Ya, I was just reusing an argument I had from a different post, on a different forum, when people were defending Bethesda's rendering of horse anuses and genetalia...

[Savok]

It's good to have you back to doing nothing but flaming, Savok.
Avoiding the point as always, good man.

[TrackZero]

Hey, that's a cool mod! You're mistaken though, that makes it so that the maximum potential of races is different, so that a High Elf, at max level, will be a better mage because said Altmer will have higher maximum skill levels in magic skills. Thus your race stat bonuses affect more than the early game.

No, that's what it's fixing. So the racial bonus everyone has can actually go over the max cap, and everyone isn't "evened out" when they hit earn up to 100. It's meant to make that high elf a better mage, and that wood elf better at firing arrows, etc.

It's a racist mod. ;)

[TrackZero]

Ya, I was just reusing an argument I had from a different post, on a different forum, when people were defending Bethesda's rendering of horse anuses and genetalia...

Maybe someone should make a mod so "horse genetalia" drops off horse carcasses, and it can be used in alchemy for a personality bonus. ;)

[Busted_Astromech]

No, that's what it's fixing. So the racial bonus everyone has can actually go over the max cap, and everyone isn't "evened out" when they hit earn up to 100. It's meant to make that high elf a better mage, and that wood elf better at firing arrows, etc.

It's a racist mod. ;)

I understood that too. I guess I just misunderstood your original use of it.

Maybe someone should make a mod so "horse genetalia" drops off horse carcasses, and it can be used in alchemy for a personality bonus.
They had that in Morrowind. It was called Telvanni bug musk. I've yet to find a bottle in Cyrodiil, though. Guess it's limited-distribution (or maybe it only works on Dunmer).

[Magnanimous Gnome]

they already accomplished their goals (equal choice, equal pay, equal opportunity)


Equal pay? What country do you live in?



Some of you are being ridiculous - this is a valid complaint in my eyes. The majority of games are obviously aimed at the young adult male crowd, and gaming will never be taken "seriously" as a hobby or source of entertainment until this changes. Look at movies and music - the selection is MUCH larger than in gaming. Until the majority of games don't center around killing and powering up, the industry will continue to stagnate.

[Mason]

Why are there no female guards in town? In my estimation, Tamerial has about 4 men for every woman, and no children or babies either.
Let's see what the ESRB has to say about stabbing babies. Or, even better, dropping them off inside an Oblivion gate. Hmm, time for a mod...

The arguments for the inclusion of the gender stats are just as empty as the arguments against it. The people who are holding forth voluminously on the feminist movement based on two blog posts (one of which is only commenting on the fact that the class illustrations are inexplicably almost all male, not the stat disparity), however, are the emptiest of all. I mean, it's almost like they respond instantly with some points on which to talk, even if they situation doesn't merit it.

[Heretic Machine]

Let's see what the ESRB has to say about stabbing babies. Or, even better, dropping them off inside an Oblivion gate. Hmm, time for a mod...

The arguments for the inclusion of the gender stats are just as empty as the arguments against it. The people who are holding forth voluminously on the feminist movement based on two blog posts (one of which is only commenting on the fact that the class illustrations are inexplicably almost all male, not the stat disparity), however, are the emptiest of all. I mean, it's almost like they respond instantly with some points on which to talk, even if they situation doesn't merit it.

I think people are blowing my arguments, and the complaints of other people who don't like the gender differences, way out of proporation. I'm not saying that this is the end of the world, or some grave injustice. I'm just saying that it's stupid. It was a stupid idea in other TES games, and there was no reason to continue it in this game, especially since Speechcraft is more worthless now than it ever has been before.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

Eh, by the time my post made it up the discussion was dead. You sterotyping types still suck though. All women who want equality must be fat feminazi lesbians. :rolleyes:

Of course we all know that all people who want equal marriage rights for homosexual couples must also be bleeding heart liberals who care more about the furry animals and the homos than they do about the real issues like national security and patriotism.

Ugh, I think my head just exploded. Does someone have a napkin?

[UnderHero5]

Equal pay? What country do you live in?



Some of you are being ridiculous - this is a valid complaint in my eyes. The majority of games are obviously aimed at the young adult male crowd, and gaming will never be taken "seriously" as a hobby or source of entertainment until this changes. Look at movies and music - the selection is MUCH larger than in gaming. Until the majority of games don't center around killing and powering up, the industry will continue to stagnate.
Just want to point out that you're pretty wrong about gaming not being taken "seriously" as a hobby...
How many PS2's alone were sold? Last I knew it was around 70 million worldwide? Maybe more?

I'd say it's pretty fucking serious, on a financial level, anyway. It's a multi bilion dollar industry, dude.

If you didn't mean "seriously" in the business sense... then what DID you mean? They are games after-all. They aren't MEANT to be taken seriously. They are meant to be fun. Let me guess... you meant as an art form?
Not every game is trying to be art, as much as some people want to believe they are. Elmo's Letter Adventure isn't art.
In my experience, people who take this hobby too seriously don't have as much fun with it. They worry about shit like a stat being 2 points lower for a female character.

This entire arguement is rediculous. Hell, my girlfriend read the news post and said "Oh come on... retards". (paraphrasing... I don't remember the exact words, but it was along those lines... you'll have to excuse me, I'm a Male and my intelligence isn't as high as it would be if I were Female)

[Banacek]

The people who are holding forth voluminously on the feminist movement based on two blog posts (one of which is only commenting on the fact that the class illustrations are inexplicably almost all male, not the stat disparity), however, are the emptiest of all. I mean, it's almost like they respond instantly with some points on which to talk, even if they situation doesn't merit it.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed.

[Savok]

I think people are blowing my arguments, and the complaints of other people who don't like the gender differences, way out of proporation. I'm not saying that this is the end of the world, or some grave injustice. I'm just saying that it's stupid. It was a stupid idea in other TES games, and there was no reason to continue it in this game, especially since Speechcraft is more worthless now than it ever has been before.
Lets remove the races as well, the game shall be populated by gray blobs all called Steve. The differences are what make the game INTERESTING, it's what makes humanity interesting,

[Busted_Astromech]

Lets remove the races as well, the game shall be populated by gray blobs all called Steve. The differences are what make the game INTERESTING, it's what makes humanity interesting,

Fantasy races are not at issue; they do not correspond to real-life. Gender disparity does. As it is something that is in dispute, and has to be balanced out through stereotypes (women have better social skills than men), it is something best left untouched, and reduced to cosmetic differences. Most RPGs, paper and silicon, have gone this route.

You're setting up a straw man. No one is boycotting the game, no one is suggesting the game be pulled from shelves, no one is suggesting that the concept of races be shelved, all that is happening is some commenting, on the internet, no less that it should be different.

[Achilles]

Equal pay? What country do you live in?The US. If you know of a woman at your workplace that does the same job as you and doesn't get paid the same wage because she’s a woman (not because of less experience or seniority), you should alert the government, they'll straighten it out right away, because it's against the law.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

Just want to point out that you're pretty wrong about gaming not being taken "seriously" as a hobby...
How many PS2's alone were sold? Last I knew it was around 70 million worldwide? Maybe more?

I'd say it's pretty fucking serious, on a financial level, anyway. It's a multi bilion dollar industry, dude.

If you didn't mean "seriously" in the business sense... then what DID you mean? They are games after-all. They aren't MEANT to be taken seriously. They are meant to be fun. Let me guess... you meant as an art form?
Not every game is trying to be art, as much as some people want to believe they are. Elmo's Letter Adventure isn't art.
In my experience, people who take this hobby too seriously don't have as much fun with it. They worry about shit like a stat being 2 points lower for a female character.

This entire arguement is rediculous. Hell, my girlfriend read the news post and said "Oh come on... retards". (paraphrasing... I don't remember the exact words, but it was along those lines... you'll have to excuse me, I'm a Male and my intelligence isn't as high as it would be if I were Female)



I'd correct all that bullshit you just spewed, but watching you try to put words into my mouth and grasp at straws is much more entertaining. Carry on.

[TrackZero]

Eh, by the time my post made it up the discussion was dead. You sterotyping types still suck though. All women who want equality must be fat feminazi lesbians. :rolleyes:

Of course we all know that all people who want equal marriage rights for homosexual couples must also be bleeding heart liberals who care more about the furry animals and the homos than they do about the real issues like national security and patriotism.

Ugh, I think my head just exploded. Does someone have a napkin?

You're right, stereotyping does suck. But at the same time, I don't pretend to say it doesn't exist without basis. People do deserve equality of treatment, but that doesn't mean at the same time I throw my sanity out the window.

I don't consider a stereotype about women's physical strength to just be imaginary, when I know there's not a single woman in my office who's stronger than me (and I'm not saying that's bad or good, just a fact). If there was no basis to that as a stereotype, than that would be a crazy statistical anomaly that I should be the strongest one here.

Obviously everyone should be considered on a per-person basis, but unfortunately, when you're dealing with people in volume, you can get far better results when you statistically look at traits. Of course people hate being lumped into groups, but it happens.

From experience, I've seen the "bad" side of equal opportunity, with regards to legislation. Here in Ontario back in the 80s, many government jobs would have to be filled to quotas over skill. Specifically, unless you were female, a visible minority, or physically disabled, you'd not be able to get a job. It wasn't about who could do the best job, it was about who you were. Which is just as horrific as what it was supposed to be preventing (apparently, there's just too many white guys working out there).

And I'm 100% for gay marriage, hence my joke about the 5 sexes. ;)

Anyways, just like with everything, extremes are where the problem lies. People should not completely view people as stereotypes, nor should they simply ignore all stereotypical behaviour, it's about keeping things in moderation.

[Savok]

Fantasy races are not at issue; they do not correspond to real-life. Gender disparity does. As it is something that is in dispute, and has to be balanced out through stereotypes (women have better social skills than men), it is something best left untouched, and reduced to cosmetic differences. Most RPGs, paper and silicon, have gone this route.
Why not? It's the same thing. Men and women are DIFFERENT, fact of god damn life. Does this make one inferior? No, it just means we're different. Any RPG that doen't recognize that fact suffers for it.

[Busted_Astromech]

Give me a defendable balance, in an RPG, to a woman's decreased physical strength. Anything. I can guarantee you that nothing will make up for it without being a stereotype and being balanced. I'm not talking about women having lower physical stats, I'm talking about women having higher 'social' stats--that's the offensive part, as it is a part of the whole 'women talk too much' steretype.

Because you can't balance the influence of testosterone on muscle development against a feminine advantage in a world where swinging a sword is a prime skill without resorting to stereotypes it's better to leave it alone.

[Returner]

It's a ******* video game for **** sake. Get over it. So what if a fictional male character is stronger then a fictional female character. The real problem is when cats get a hold of this game all hell is going to break loose. Don't forget to let peta know that you can torture all kinds of animals in Oblivion. Gee what else can we put on this pile of bullshit.

[Savok]

Well lets look at TES stats. Personality seems to be it for the social stuff, and that has nothing to do with being a "social" skill, it's simply how likeable you are and how well behave around civilized people. Also the strength of your Personality when used in things like Illusion spells (which I can tell you now, are awesome). Social skills are Speechcraft and Mercantile, which gender has no effect on.

Agility, Willpower, Intelligence, all vital to combat when you're not just yelling "Ug Smash" and swinging an axe.

[Busted_Astromech]

Words are cheap, Returner. We can argue all day and night about what is right, and just because we are doesn't mean we're greatly invested in it. I'm not worked up about this (though Perigon may be just a teensy bit), just trying to show what's right. Do you see anyone here commenting that this changed their opinion of Oblivion? No, most of us adore this game. An academic discussion is not akin to a protest.

[TrackZero]

It's a ******* video game for **** sake. Get over it. So what if a fictional male character is stronger then a fictional female character. The real problem is when cats get a hold of this game all hell is going to break loose. Don't forget to let peta know that you can torture all kinds of animals in Oblivion. Gee what else can we put on this pile of bullshit.

You know you CAN swear here. In fact, I believe it's fucking encouraged.

[Busted_Astromech]

Well lets look at TES stats. Personality seems to be it for the social stuff, and that has nothing to do with being a "social" skill, it's simply how likeable you are and how well behave around civilized people. Also the strength of your Personality when used in things like Illusion spells (which I can tell you now, are awesome). Social skills are Speechcraft and Mercantile, which gender has no effect on.

Agility, Willpower, Intelligence, all vital to combat when you're not just yelling "Ug Smash" and swinging an axe.

They balance in the game, of course, because they have to. They're just not representative of real life in any way but through a stereotype. If you're arguing against false parity in RPGs how can you accept forced parity through the granting of other skills?

[Morratut]

This is just silly. Men are stronger there ya go.

[Savok]

It's actually been proven that a woman's mind is capable of things a man's isn't when it comes to keeping track of a number of activities, they can simply do it better then we can. Female intuition is quite real, they have a better eye for detail and as such, notice things out of place or that just don't make sense more often, even if only subconsiously.

[Feltoar]

Theres nothing stopping a female from playing a male character.

I dont see a problem. I can see why someone would point it out and complain, but anyone who takes it too far is clearly sexist. Its a generalisation for the sake of gameplay. It happens all the time.

[Royal Fool]

Would it be stereotypical to give males a slight boost in strength and females a boost in agility, perhaps? Or allow each gender to pick two of three boosts specific for their gender?

[AlmostSente]

They should have a series of questions (like the Ultima games had) to check if you are for or against gender differences. That way everyone could be happy. :)

Seriously though, I think the game is quite PC already... Watered down even to some extent.

[Romuluss]

I swear this rampant PC shit is going to bring down society as we know it.

Men are stronger than women, simple as that and there's no reason to build a game with other than representory game mechanics. Its things like this that completely kill any credibility feminists have.

[GunnyMo]

Reasonable feminists would agree: Men and women are inherently unequal, and that male is simply more tailored for certain tasks while female others. Am I being sexist for pointing out the obvious physical disparity?

Nope. You are 100% correct. Men and women are different. I am all for women's rights, etc. but these freaky feminists have to realize there are differences. The quest to make sure women are considered equal in every way, shape and form to men is ludicrous. I actually found it a refreshing change in Oblivion. The game doesn't make itself politically correct to a perticular demographic. I play a female woodelf and have had no probelm with the game whatsoever.

Fuckin' feminists. Don't they have some bras to burn instead of worrying about this?

[scott5834]

Dumb decision on Bethesda's part. Trying to get my nieces to play computer RPGs is hard enough, now I have to explain there's a quantifiable speechcraft boost when they pick females. Well done Bethesda.

[Sophism]

Dumb decision on Bethesda's part. Trying to get my nieces to play computer RPGs is hard enough, now I have to explain there's a quantifiable speechcraft boost when they pick females. Well done Bethesda.
I totally agree, that sucks to have to explain to your nieces that women aren't identical to men in every way. I mean, the lies you'll have to tell!

There are quantifiable and consistent differences between male and female brains and body development. If men and women were equal at everything, we would lose out on some of the most amazing technological, creative, artistic, and philosophical work ever done, just due to the fact that female brains are set up to process incoming data differently than men.

Not to mention we wouldn't be able to reproduce and all. But that's not important anyway, I think what is important is to decapitate anyone who says that men and women are different.

[MaiXu]

Dumb decision on Bethesda's part. Trying to get my nieces to play computer RPGs is hard enough, now I have to explain there's a quantifiable speechcraft boost when they pick females. Well done Bethesda.

I can't tell if this is heavy sarcasm or total idiocy.

[lockwoodx]

black people are more suited to tropical environments than white people. omg teh racism!


I'm not racist I own a color tv!

[Magnanimous Gnome]

You're right, stereotyping does suck. But at the same time, I don't pretend to say it doesn't exist without basis. People do deserve equality of treatment, but that doesn't mean at the same time I throw my sanity out the window.

I don't consider a stereotype about women's physical strength to just be imaginary, when I know there's not a single woman in my office who's stronger than me (and I'm not saying that's bad or good, just a fact). If there was no basis to that as a stereotype, than that would be a crazy statistical anomaly that I should be the strongest one here.


My post wasn't aimed at you at all TrackZero. I was talking about those stereotyping feminists as "feminazi lesbian crazies" etc. Men and women are obviously different physically - that's not a stereotype, it's just a fact. I totally agree with your post, but there are other posters in this thread who are just being ridiculous.

[MosBen]

What confuses me about some of the posters here that continue to cite "reality" is that, as I mentioned earlier, this is explicitly *not* reality, it's fantasy. It's perfectly reasonable that in some fantasy universe the females of a species that looks otherwise human could be the physically dominant gender. Even putting that aside, why does the reality of gender differences between the human genders on Earth also apply to the fictional species? Even if we accept that the human looking species of Tamariel have the same physical differences as humans, why is it true of lizard, cat, and orc species? There are many nonhuman species on Earth where the males are physically weak compared to the females.

And one last thing, the original article didn't strike me as particularly up in arms about this. I think most reasonable people recognize this as substantially smaller than something like equal pay (which, contrary to a previous poster is not a reality), but it's an annoying symbol/symtom of the underlying problems which have not been fixed. And yet the reactions of people here are so virulently anti-feminist...

[Savok]

Because it's the case in the TES games, Ben, simple as that. Can't a world exist without some asshole putting some political slant on it, seems not.

If you're aware of a woman not getting the same pay as a man in exactly the same job, then go inform whatever anti-discrimination thing you have set up in the US. Hell, the woman could probably sue, get rich and never have to work again.

And yes, that terrible unlying problems of how much men hate women, we're so much more awesome then they are. You'll find a lot of people sick to fucking death of special interest groups running our lives, we're speeding towards a cluster fuck here.

[Heretic Machine]

You know what I'm sick of? I'm sick of people throwing a fit over others being "politically correct" when we are just talking about a GOD DAMN VIDEO GAME! Why the fuck do we need to have stat differences between genders in a VIDEO GAME? I know it hasn't made the game more fun to me, has anyone else had an enriched experience from having this 'feature' in the game? No? Then it shouldn't be in the damn game.

[MosBen]

Politics *is* the life and art that happens around us. Pretending that politics don't exist in the things we produce is just that, pretending. There are plenty of unresolved social issues in the US and the world and there's nothing wrong, and no evidence of being an asshole, with confronting and discussing these problems in a reasoned, civilized manner.

It's not a matter of knowing "a woman" that doesn't get equal pay for equal work, it's a simple statistical reality that, overall, women earn somewhere in the ballpark of $.89 for every dollar that their male counterparts earn.

I don't know what "speeding towards a cluster fuck" means, but it's a sad commentary that you're suggesting we may not address real and existing social problems because people are tired of talking about it.

On another note, I find it interesting that you referred to me as Ben, while most people say Mos. I don't have any preference, and Ben is certainly more accurate to real life, it's just interesting.

[ilian]

I like how all these people are using this as an excuse to rant against feminists and political corectness. When it isnt even that big of a deal, and none of the links even show any serious feminists coming out about this at all, and the article hardly even feels offended by it, and just points out the differences, and never mentions much about politcal corectness issues.

Interesting how people take any excuse possible to jump down the throat of their image of feminists, even when they are talking to a wall and no feminists are even involved.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

You know what I'm sick of? I'm sick of people throwing a fit over others being "politically correct" when we are just talking about a GOD DAMN VIDEO GAME! Why the fuck do we need to have stat differences between genders in a VIDEO GAME? I know it hasn't made the game more fun to me, has anyone else had an enriched experience from having this 'feature' in the game? No? Then it shouldn't be in the damn game.


Actually it enriched my experience, so screw you.

[Savok]

I don't give two shits about the original article, plenty of people here seem hell bent enough to erase any depth something might have.

I don't care how small this is either, Bethesda people read these forums, it's a damn fact, the bullshit with the "pay to play" mods has made it obvious they're in a very suggestive state for stupid shit, this amounts to "don't give them ideas". Small things can add up to not so small things don't forget.

[Heretic Machine]

I don't give two shits about the original article, plenty of people here seem hell bent enough to erase any depth something might have.

If this is 'deep' for you, then I have some fine film (http://mooreslore.corante.com/archives/images/beavis-butthead.jpeg) for you to view.

[MosBen]

I have to admit, Savok, that I didn't follow your post completely, so if I'm misinterpreting please forgive me. By "depth" I take you to mean that getting rid of the gender differences would make the game less "deep" and that this would be a bad thing because, essentially, more stats are better. Now, I'm not sure that that's necessarily true (complexity does not have a 1:1 relationship with fun), but even if it is, and to get rid of stats based on gender is a significant reduction in complexity, you're still left with the argument that you don't need to eliminate differences between genders to still avoid most of these criticisms. Again, I'm not convinced that we need the gender differences to make the game any more fun, but if we're going to have them I'd like to see them do something more interesting than simply regurgitate the stereotypes of our world, and as I've pointed out in previous posts, this is something that they could easily have done.

As to not giving Bethesda ideas, I think your example of the horse armor fiasco doesn't help you much. Bethesda released a mod for X price. Gamers didn't think that was a fair price and discussed it on forums such as these, and Bethesda responded to those concerns. Seems to me that "giving them ideas" works surprisingly well. So, if any Bethesda employees are reading these forums, I'd just like to say that your game is awesome, but you have some blind spots in your treatment of gender in this series of games that, though not a huge impact on my enjoyment of the product, was a slightly annoying oversight that I think could be corrected easily in the next iteration of the series.