World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade Q&A With the Lead Designer [Archive]

Phanto

03-31-2006, 06:39 PM

You can read all about it Here (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/worldofwarcraftexp1/news.html?sid=6146909). Thanks to Gamespot for the article.

Jeffrey Kaplan: The Burning Crusade will draw in completely new players as well as less-advanced players, in addition to appealing to the World of Warcraft veterans. We'll be adding two new races to the game, complete with a new starting experience for both of those races. For example, the blood elves (our new Horde race) will be able to adventure through Eversong Forest and the Ghostlands. Eversong is the equivalent to a zone such as Elwynn or Tirisfal Glades, and Ghostlands is roughly the same level range as Westfall or Loch Modan. So, as you can see, there will be brand new content for people starting right at level one.
The Alliance is overpowerful with the new introduced race The WISPS!

gzsfrk

03-31-2006, 07:57 PM

Jeffrey Kaplan: The Burning Crusade will draw in completely new players as well as less-advanced players, in addition to appealing to the World of Warcraft veterans.

Translation: "We're doing everything to keep our hardcore raiding community happy while we look to replace those legions who are leaving the game (the ones who believed our original promise that the game would be casual friendly) with some more suckers who aren't aware of what a wasted time sink our game is."

Draft

03-31-2006, 07:59 PM

Translation: "We're doing everything to keep our hardcore raiding community happy while we look to replace those legions who are leaving the game (the ones who believed our original promise that the game would be casual friendly) with some more suckers who aren't aware of what a wasted time sink our game is."get some friends and go raid, or quit the game and savor the fun you had leveling from 1-60.

gzsfrk

03-31-2006, 08:05 PM

get some friends and go raid, or quit the game and savor the fun you had leveling from 1-60.

Indeed! I took your advice several months ago. (Quit--not the "friends" thing. :)

Zeal

03-31-2006, 08:13 PM

The game simply requires too much dedication and time. Not only that, but the elitest attitude of the higher level players has really brought down the community.

I canceled my account.

Suicidal ShiZuru

03-31-2006, 08:57 PM

More like the high level raid guilds and people are stupid asshats and raiding in general gets rather boring[very boring] unless you want a massive e-peen reaching beyond time. Id prefer not to play a game where I just waste hours of time doing the same thing overa nd over again to get more uber super duper gear to help me out in more repetitive pvp.

Plus Mages are bitches in this game, fuck blizzard.

On another note once this comes out I might play again for a bit...

Neverborne

03-31-2006, 08:58 PM

The game simply requires too much dedication and time. Not only that, but the elitest attitude of the higher level players has really brought down the community.

I canceled my account.

Zeal, do you even fucking play videogames? Everytime I see you post, you're ragging on something. Christ, man, your life must be hell if you don't enjoy anything.

tysonwritesel

03-31-2006, 09:10 PM

For me, the game was simply too easy. The content was rich, the players were self centered with social problems (dudes leaving to take a piss in the middle of a run, people getting upset when the entire group wipes out, people getting upset about items, people saying tough shit when a guildmember leaves the guild after missing invite to instance they waited a month to go into) to be expected which kept my interest low to want to raid with said players. The game does become repetitive decreasing a lot of enjoyment in rewards or doing quests. Also a trade class, noncombat class, or something like that is necessary.

Now they are talking about making it easier than it already is. How much easier can it be than rolling a decked out level 60 as a new player on the test server? No doubt the Burning Crusade will be a welcome addition for devout players who can play past some of the problems that I encountered.

Wolfgang

03-31-2006, 09:19 PM

I too recently quit WoW. WoW is the ultimate treadmill. There is nothing ever really accomplished in the game -- you are always grinding something -- mats, honor, items, reputation. There are no world events (well they had the AQ gates which sucked and the "elemental invasion" which is weak). Overall WoW offers a lot to do -- but you accomplish nothing.

Once you hit 60 it is all about the e-peen. WoW has 0 risk to reward. It is just how much time do you have to invest. You have 8 months? Then good you can get a full suit of tier 1, tier 2, etc... The risk of raiding is rolling, DKP and random drops. Once you conquer an encounter it is the samething. There are several well geared players that just plain suck in WoW.

Also nothing in WoW felt epic. Killing onyixa -- tank go beat on it for 1 minute, heal -- ok guys go wild... I mean boring... That isn't what I wanted. I wanted to feel like I was part of a large battle against a dragon -- not have my MT sit there to gain "aggro" for a few minutes to just have the rest of of go wild -- "oh just avoid her tail". BWL was cooler, but still after you have seen it once... I mean, I hate feeling like I am working in a game and that is what WoW became -- grind Honor, grind mats, grind faction, ok be on at 8pm or everyone will be pissed and stay at your PC until midnight in hopes that item X will drop.

Gamingsteve I think did a great write up comparing WoW to CoVThey are very different games. If you want a "deep" MMORPG experience then WOW is the way to go. But if you don't have 20-30 hours to play WOW each week, and aren't into huge raids and really dedicating time to your character, then CoV/CoH is the way to go. I like this game because you can play for 15-30 minutes and get something done. While WOW really requires you to spend a lot of time crafting and shaping your character and at the very highest level you really need to join a guild to get the best equipment and items. CoV/CoH on the other hand doesn't even have equipment, so you can play this game however you want.

Many people say that CoV/CoH is repetitive, but I would argue that all MMORPGs are repetitive. The difference is the wrapping put around the repetitive behavior and I believe that both of these games do an excellent job at this. But since WOW is a deeper game it has a lot "more" repetitive tasks (i.e. crafting, quests, raids, fishing, auctions, etc.), while CoV/CoH only has a few (combat, quests and smaller raids).

It's hard to say, you either love CoV/CoH or you hate it. For many the combat isn't enough to keep them interested, but for me I can never seem to get enough of it. The combat system is so deep and fulfilling that I can spend hours just killing bad guys. Oh yeah, and the ability to fly ... I wish all MMORPGs had this!

WoW's grind bored me, the combat bored me, and while CoH was blamed for having instnaces that LOOKED the same -- no one complains about doing the SAME instance in WoW. Well I guess it was ok doing UBRS 60 times cause there are items in WoW...

I did get $400 for my WoW account though :) A level 60 Paladin -- exalted with the PvP factions, Lt. Cmdr PvP rank, revered with several races, mostly tier 1, some tier 2, 2 epic mounts, etc...

Zeal

03-31-2006, 09:24 PM

Zeal, do you even fucking play videogames? Everytime I see you post, you're ragging on something. Christ, man, your life must be hell if you don't enjoy anything.

You try playing the game till level 48 and tell me if you don't get bored. Once you hit a higher level, WoW is nothing but a geek fest of weapon whoring and guild drama.

I'd much rather just watch a movie.

Intruder

03-31-2006, 09:26 PM

I too was a hardcore WoW player, but I cancelled my account a few months ago when I realized that once you hit 60 the fun is gone, for me at least. I had blasts teaming up with a few friends for a few hours at a time, running solo when I wanted and playing in the AH.

However once I saw that to get the gear i wanted, I would have to dedicate 5+ hours at a time to raids and big instances. Then I had to deal with Guilds who had mandated play hours and meetings.

Don't get me wrong, I love WoW, but quit after they constantly kept catering to the large guild and raid people and left the others out to dry. I didn't consider myself casual by any means, but I also wasn't willing to sit there for 5+ hours for a small chance at something that I might be able to use. Lvls 1-55 are sheer pleasure and utter enjoyment, after that, unless you have ample time and a solid guild then the game turns to utter hell.

If they start making accomidations for small parties and less time intensive runs, I will be back as quick as possible. They keep touting how many subscribers they have time to time, but the never tell how many leave. If they specifically mention trying to win back those who leave, my guess is that those numbers are somewhat significant.

Draft

03-31-2006, 09:26 PM

CoH is much more repetetive than wow, at least when I played it.

tysonwritesel

03-31-2006, 09:33 PM

CoH is much more repetetive than wow, at least when I played it.

I agree, World of WarCraft has a lot more original content but CoH/CoV goes out on a limb and breaks the molds that World of WarCraft might not touch to ruin balance. CoV is radically different and is a much tougher game (to level up) but you'll find people willing to just get in a group and get into the action. A lot of veteran MMORPG players are in both games.

Wolfgang

03-31-2006, 09:35 PM

CoH is much more repetetive than wow, at least when I played it.

As gamingsteve said it is. It has fewer repetetive tasks than WoW. WoW has more tasks to distract you -- CoV has 3 types -- PvE combat, PvP combat, base building (base raiding). WoW has PvE (raids, quests, instances), PvP, Gathering, Crafting, grinding faction and whatever else.

The difference is -- half of WoW's content is treadmill, not actual fun for me. The honor system, faction and well I have never been one for crafting virtual items. I would rather do something more productive. I know leveling is a treadmill -- but they both have that and most every MMO will -- to my knowledge only UO is different.

CoH/V is pure combat and that is what I like, not everyone.

CoH is like a good Co-op game. I would compare it to a deeper Diablo than WoW. CoH has a very deep combat system, a lot deeper than WoW. CoH to me is something I can get on with my friends for 30 minutes to 1hr and feel like we did something cool -- I could not do that in WoW.

neither game is perfect and I do not want to argue which is better

CoH issue 7 previews: http://www.coh.com/news/archives/2006/03/issue_7_destiny.html

Issue 7 new powers: http://www.cityofvillains.com/feature_update_issue_7f.html (pretty cool)

GunnyMo

03-31-2006, 09:36 PM

I totally agree that the lvl 60 community is populated with major asshats. If you haven't done UBRS or Scholo fourty times then you can't be in their raid group. I really wish Blizzard would stop catering to the ultra-long, 400 man raid group crowd and get back to casual players. They did address that somewhat with the latest patch (questable five man epics, dropping scholo, strath and BRS to five man). I'm looking forward to BC simply for a change of pace at 60. I truly enjoy WoW not only for it's ease of play but for the storyline as well. I've enjoyed delving into the history and drama of Azeroth. Every single MMO out there will have grinding. It's just something you can never get away from. I've enjoyed WoW more than any other because the quest system is much better than any other MMO I've played (and I've played most of them). If I want a quick "run in, fight and leave" game I'll jump in a game of CoD 1 or 2 or some other FPS. MMOs aren't pick up and leave games. How else can you explain why games like Planetside and CoH/CoV are infinitly smaller in population that WoW or even EQ? Flame away, hardcore CoH fans, but I found that one way too boring. Fight, fight, level, level...bleah. If I'm going to grind at least make it interesting and WoW has done that.

Draft

03-31-2006, 09:38 PM

There are two reasons WoW has seen a lot more raid content than 5/10 man stuff the last few months.

1. wow shipped with a shit load of 5 man stuff, and 1 raid dungeon. Now, almost a year and a half after release, we have 3 raid dungeons, 2 psuedo raids (which I feel are great fun and a GREAT balance between raiding and casual content) and Onyxia.

2. there is nothing more complex about designing a 40 man dungeon than designing a 5 man dungeon. Art production is similar, programming needs, itemization, etc. However, a tough 40 man dungeon can keep a guild busy for months. C'Thun, the boss of AQ40, is still undefeated. Conversely, a 5 man dungeon is lasting one day, maybe 2 tops before someone kills the boss and puts the place on farm status. It gets worn out a lot quicker. So I'm not surprised their content creation has focused on "long lasting" dungeons rather than 5 or 10 man stuff, which I'm sure the expansion will just be riddled with.

I think a lot of people give wow a hard time it doesn't deserve. The game delivers you an enormous amount of content 1-59 (and hyperbole aside, you have quite a few things to do upon reaching 60 before you get into raiding.) Would it be nice if there were a dozen 5 man dungeons for level 60s? 3 or 4 giant zones filled with stuff to do? hundreds of questlines that offered substantial rewards for end game players? Of course. But those things take time to produce. A LOT of time.

I'm sure Blizzard would love to appease the "casual" (though I personally feel if you post angry messages online about a game, you don't qualify as casual) crowd, and if they could wave a magic wand and produce an entire continent of level 60 5 man content, they'd do it in a heartbeat. But they can't, so they're producing what they can and asking that you wait for the expansion.

Obviously that's not good enough for everyone, and it doesn't have to be. Plenty of people play wow because they dig doing quests and other lore type things. But sadly they run out, and then what? Well, you can decide to progress further, do the raid/faction grind/pvp thing, OR you can treat wow like any other game you've beaten, and put it on a shelf. After all your character isn't going anywhere (unless you sell it for $500.)

AntB

03-31-2006, 09:38 PM

WTF? I don't play wow, but from what I gathered the new races Ability is to explode and cease to exist? HUH?

Draft

03-31-2006, 09:41 PM

neither game is perfect and I do not want to argue which is better ok my man, but you are the one who offered it up as a superior alternative to wow.

Wolfgang

03-31-2006, 09:43 PM

How else can you explain why games like Planetside and CoH/CoV are infinitly smaller in population that WoW or even EQ?

My understanding is CoH has respectable numbers, not WoW -- but nothing has WoW numbers.

CoH is also a Super Hero game, clearly it does not appeal to everyone.

WoW and Star Wars are also the first 2 MMOs that have an actual history with the game. And unlike Star wars -- WoW did/does not suck. WoW also appeals to e-peen crowd, the asian market where items are a must, etc... WoW is a well designed game that offers a lot of tasks. I would be willing to bet that if City of Heroes was City of X-Men or City of Marvel Heroes -- it would be doing a heck of a lot better too.

I found I grinded more in WoW than CoV -- CoH I did do a fair amount of grinding, but in CoV you are never without a quest cause of their Newspaper quests which are always there for you.

Though how people can say running MC every Tuesday, BWL on Wed, Onyixa on Thursday, ZG on Friday, AQ40 on Monday is not grinding -- well I don't know what is...

GunnyMo

03-31-2006, 09:45 PM

I forgot to mention that I was very suprised and impressed that they have turned on large gold rewards for questing at 60 rather than exp (which you can't gain anymore anyway). I thought that was a great idea to expand the quest role at 60.

Wolfgang

03-31-2006, 09:46 PM

ok my man, but you are the one who offered it up as a superior alternative to wow.

I don't think it is "better" than WoW, I think it is better for me and is different than WoW. Also I am talking about CoH/V now, not the old CoH which was not nearly as good as CoV is.

I look at MMOs as 4 markets right now.

EQ -- EQ, EQ2, DAoC, WoW
EQ lite -- CoH
UO
Guild Wars

Intruder

03-31-2006, 09:47 PM

WTF? I don't play wow, but from what I gathered the new races Ability is to explode and cease to exist? HUH?

Check your date, it may be April 1st by now. The Wisps were nothing but a April Fools joke,no exploding Alliance wisps, sorry.

Draft

03-31-2006, 09:49 PM

Though how people can say running MC every Tuesday, BWL on Wed, Onyixa on Thursday, ZG on Friday, AQ40 on Monday is not grinding -- well I don't know what is...speaking personally, I do it because I enjoy executing a strat with 39 other people and killing an internet dragon. A lot of the ex-EQ crowd maintains WoW is a super easy game, and compared to EQ it may very well be. I never played. But I know my guild has had a devil of a time in BWL, and as frustrating and infuriating as it can be, the elation upon beating a boss for the first time is something other types of games can't offer. when my friends and I finally beat nefarian (and yeah I do consider several of them friends, despite never having met them IRL) it's gonna be a pretty cool thing. 58% baby. He can run but he can't hide.

Wolfgang

03-31-2006, 09:53 PM

speaking personally, I do it because I enjoy executing a strat with 39 other people and killing an internet dragon. A lot of the ex-EQ crowd maintains WoW is a super easy game, and compared to EQ it may very well be. I never played. But I know my guild has had a devil of a time in BWL, and as frustrating and infuriating as it can be, the elation upon beating a boss for the first time is something other types of games can't offer. when my friends and I finally beat nefarian (and yeah I do consider several of them friends, despite never having met them IRL) it's gonna be a pretty cool thing. 58% baby. He can run but he can't hide.

I totally agree there. The first time beating Content in WoW is fun for me, infact I would say the first 4 times.

After that it becomes the exact samething each time and I am only going for an x% chance at an item if I have the right DKP. Therefore I will spend months killing Ragnaros for my Tier 2 pants. 8 Raiding Paladins in the guild, 4 to 6 come per raid, 1 rag kill per night, 2 tier 2 pants drop, etc... Obviously you know the math and it isn't fun :) That is what got to me, the only reason I was going on these raids was because of virtual items.

I wish WoW was not as gear dependent as it is. It would be nice if the first time we cleared MC we could head to BWL -- but you can't. You need a fair amount of MC gear for BWL -- so even if you are the best guild ever you will still need good gear to conquer BWL, not just good strats and skills.

Edit: Night guys

GunnyMo

03-31-2006, 09:54 PM

WoW is easy compared to EQ. I spent almost three years on EQ (it was me S&M phase) and I'll never touch an EQ game again. Why? Experience penalties. I cannot stand that. Losing a level or the experience you just spent the last five hours gaining simply because some ass trains you at the zone is something I don't want to experience again. Did I have a lot of fun in EQ? You bet. Would I do it again? Hell no. WoW takes the fun parts of an MMO and makes them available to everyone. You die in an instance it does suck especially if you were down deep and the front end has respawned. EQs way of thinking: "Oh, you died? Here, let us kick you in the balls for the next two weeks as you try to make the experience back." No thanks.

Draft

03-31-2006, 09:57 PM

While I'm sure it's different for everyone, I personally found that right around the time I was "done" with MC (in terms of gear,) I was also just starting to get really sick of it. Now, I don't go to MC, I let the new shaman go, and I concentrate on BWL, which is still fresh and exciting. And I imagine I'll have a month or so of BWL farming in me before I get the AQ40 itch real bad. And by then hopefully we'll have moved on.

Like I said earlier, the key to raid content is that it takes a long time to conquer. More ROI for the developer.

jacktion

03-31-2006, 10:03 PM

WOW sucks because it requires no skill. The game is based on time. The more time you spend the farther you get. There are no mental challenges. No physical challenges. It is just about the amount of time sunk into it. This prevents any savants from coming along and having a natural aptitude for it. You won't see any "Michael Jordans" of WOW. This is because whoever spends the most time playing becomes the best player for the most part. Even the most talented game player cannot beat the worst game player if the worst one has spent more time acquiring gear. A lot of people will look at this and say, "what's your problem? that's just how it is." And I say that I'd rather have a game based on skill. Games based on skill will be around long after WOW is dead and forgotten. Games like Basketball and Chess. This is why I have such hopes for the new MMOFPS's coming out like Huxley. If you are naturally gifted you will advance quicker than those who are bad at reflexes and such. Let's hope it is well implemented.

agentgray

03-31-2006, 10:07 PM

Wow. (pun intended).

This is in the April Fools' thread.

Draft

03-31-2006, 10:08 PM

This is because whoever spends the most time playing becomes the best player for the most part.that's generally true about every single thing people do.

Heretic Machine

03-31-2006, 10:21 PM

I quit playing WoW for the exact opposite reason everyone else did: I like doing dungeon raids, and I could never get people to go on them at my level (41). So, I said fuck it, and went back to playing CoH/CoV. Right now that is on hold too, since Oblivion came out, but I'll go back again once summer starts.

jacktion

03-31-2006, 11:01 PM

that's generally true about every single thing people do.

I guess generally it is true. The more you do something the better you get. But rarely is it applied so strictly and unwaveringly. I know people who have been playing trumpet for years and he is godawful. I know people who just pick up a clarinet and they can play instantly. People have gifts and varying levels of skill. The disappointing thing about WOW is that it doesn't recognize this. It is the true egalitarian society with no variation.

Zeal

03-31-2006, 11:18 PM

Amazingly, I went from WoW to CoV, too.

Character: Doomsday Reborn...lol.

Citizen Philip

03-31-2006, 11:34 PM

Meh. It's become boring shit. Really. If you can get yourself away from it for a month +2D6 days you realize what an utter waste of time it is. The fact you need 40 man raids and the only thing the game supports is five useless looting systems and a way to group 40 people with absolutely no other support is ridiculous: you build content that requires people to invest time and money? No wonder guilds get torn apart.

I wanted to log in with 40 minutes to kill and maybe run through a couple of battlegrounds: Not going to happen. If you're lucky you spend 40 minutes in a friggen line: to get two-shotted by captain college and his intergalactic squad of honour rep grinders and their wild collection of uberlewts.

--- I'm hoping Huxley will be good.

Wasson_

03-31-2006, 11:54 PM

I played WoW from last November to the end of feburary.

I was never a very devoted player as All I had was a lvl 57 Orc Warrior named Gruzbuz - At this time I'd like to point out that I have a but a 28.8 kbps connection.

I simply had to quit, as too much of the end game content was PvP dependent / required large raid group. And those things are simply impossible with a slow connection. - Even just running into a a solo alliance who wasn't also a Warrior- was basically certain doom for humble Gruzbuz. Otherwise- you'd be suprised by how playable the game is with such a shitty connection. Just don't expect to pwn ANYONE in PVP.

I hated the idea of my character never "growing" anymore past 60...constantly doing some difficult big group shit, to no avail, just to possibly get the few possible pieces of uber armor and a weapon. Not appealing to me. Feels like work. But I started to LIKE the game alot more after I got my Mount. (cause Wolves are by far the sweetest mounts, my friend was a Troll hunter who made special effort to get wolf - we'd go ride together and do shit. It was pretty cool lol.)

Druids had (around when I quit, idk if they recently changed them..AGAIN...) the most fucked up and blainently unfair abalities against warriors who aren't just totally speced for PvP. It made me sick.- and Warlocks and Shadow Priests...shit don't even get me started....

IDK, if I'd go back. I'd rather get Oblivion and play that- a game that feels epic and gives the sensation of adventure...not menial fetch quests and repetative drop collecting. *It depends if i have fast internet by the time such a decision comes up. I'd never be.."blood elf"..to hell with those queer alliance two-timers...Orc forever baby.

Nite_Moogle

04-01-2006, 12:31 AM

WOW sucks because it requires no skill.
You didn't really do any instances when/if you played, did you?

Perigon, I think we told you in another thread, stick it out to 60 and you won't have anything to do BUT run dungeons.

Tentaro

04-01-2006, 12:48 AM

I'm gonna be the ass to say it but, come on. It's a video game. I mean Zelda:OOT or Metroid Prime, or Half-Life or Monkey Island or whatever may be great games, but I sure as fuck wouldn't play any of THEM for 100's of hours. Maybe Civ 4though. If you get bored, consider how many games you really play for THAT long. I know there are a few, and they are different for everybody, and thats fine. WoW isn't for everybody. Go play something else. I'm just so tired of all these fights. I don't go bitching about how much Halo sucks to people cause it's not my business. "Waaahhh bungie, you're game is supposed to be so good, but I find it to be console crap, fix it." Besides, alot of people like WoW just how it is. In fact honestly, I think alot of you people like it quite a bit, hence getting upset with the higher levels, you don't want it to be "over". Well to quote Draft "...quit the game and savor the fun you had leveling from 1-60." Even that takes a LONG time, so quit it like you would a single player game, and get on to something else, come back for the expansion. I mean, if you felt you were gaining something on the 1-60 track, but once at 60 feel there is no purpose you have to ask, what was the purpose from 1-60? Me, I'm gonna go on my another UBRS run to get some blood and fight big dragons. It's not perfect, but it's the best we've had yet.

Heretic Machine

04-01-2006, 12:50 AM

Perigon, I think we told you in another thread, stick it out to 60 and you won't have anything to do BUT run dungeons.

I don't "stick it out" for any game, single player or MMO, doesn't matter. If something stops being fun, I drop it like a bad habbit and move on to something that IS fun.

Tentaro

04-01-2006, 12:55 AM

Wasson_

04-01-2006, 12:58 AM

Can't aruge with that- I agree 100%

edit- about things not being fun.

Heretic Machine

04-01-2006, 01:09 AM

Perigon, I am in no way being mean when I ask this, but I notice your sig conatins a link to Furcadia. Alot of people would find that boring, is it necessary for them to log onto Furcadia discussions and complain? Personally I liked Furcadia(played it a bit about 9 years ago or so, damn I feel old), but know people who find it ridculously boring and pointless. I bet alot of the reasons you like Furcadia are similar to reasons alot of ppl like WoW. Different strokes and what not. Just something to consider :)

The topic was already shifted to whether WoW was fun or not, just look at how longer I waited to post my reply. I posted my opinion, you replied to it, I replied to that. It's how forums work. If you don't like what I say, chances are you should either expect a back-and-forth forum discussion, or just not reply to it at all.

Tentaro

04-01-2006, 01:11 AM

Well, whether or not any of us like WoW or not, alot of people do. So let them. Why all the hate?

Zeal

04-01-2006, 01:23 AM

Well, whether or not any of us like WoW or not, alot of people do. So let them. Why all the hate?

My Nintendo DS broke and I've been bitter at the world ever since.

PS- It was pink and had Kirby on it.

Tentaro

04-01-2006, 01:47 AM

Does that mean you haven't played MP:Hunters yet?!

Me neither :(

Mason

04-01-2006, 01:54 AM

Well, whether or not any of us like WoW or not, alot of people do. So let them. Why all the hate?
Perigon never prescribed behavior for anyone else, he only spoke of his own feelings and experience. That isn't failing to let anyone enjoy WoW, nor is it hate.

As for myself, I used to play a priest. That probably sums everything up.

Chiron

04-01-2006, 03:02 AM

The new 5 man caps on the 58-60 dungeons and upgradeable set items have really addressed the raider vs non-raider argument well. Its now possible to be in a small guild and get gear comparable to a 40 man raid.

The only thing I can see tearing me away from wow is Oblivion--it looks so tasty. My spellsword Soulcatcher and sneaky Khajiit thief Kzin are begging to be reborn.

webnurv

04-01-2006, 05:24 AM

balamoor

04-01-2006, 05:41 AM

Jeff Kaplan is such a fucking Tool. He ascended to his position by ass kissing and ranting at SOE. WoW would be a much better game if the Asshat spontaneously combusted.

At Blizcon this asshole spent most of his time in closed conference with Uber Guilds working out deals…so much for providing content to all play styles. He has turned WoW into a raid or Quit game, I canceled both expansion pre orders as has most people I know, Fuck funding a game where content is provided to only 1% of the population.

Grimgrock

04-01-2006, 06:04 AM

At Blizcon this asshole spent most of his time in closed conference with Uber Guilds working out deals…so much for providing content to all play styles.

Do you know this for a fact or are you just speculating?

Why is it we can't have one thread about WoW or EQ or GW or SWG without it degrenerating into a why X game sucks thread.

Grave

04-01-2006, 06:17 AM

Wolfgang

04-01-2006, 07:58 AM

While I agree with a lot of you in terms of the repetitiveness and dull grinding there is one thing I'd like to point out. Have you ever played other MMORPGS? They don't exactly differ greatly on the time they require from you, it IS always about hitting stuff or doing endless quests in order to improve gear and reach 60 (or whatever the max might be) and Yes..there is no end because that is the point of an MMO, that is also how the company who made the game makes its money, from continual gameplay from its clients. So all those thinking it wasn't going to take all your time: you thought wrong. Any other MMO takes just about as much time if not more (you can reach 60 in WoW a lot faster than you could in EQ).

That is why many of us are trying CoV or why my brothers went back to UO. They are fairly different from WoW/EQ. We are trying something new and feel we can complain about WoW who isn't really innovating -- they are just doing EQ better. CoV is about beating content, not gear. You get a badge for completing the Quest lines and move on. There is NEVER a need to continue to do the same dungeon over and over again. UO is just a beast of its own -- player housing that is out in the open, the biggest player run economy, it is truly the wild wild west.

WoW is the best of the EQ games -- but the game becomes an item grind and then you add in the honor grind and well... it is the biggest grind.

PvP in WoW means nothing -- you gain points to compete against your own faction with. A Grand Marshal or High Warlord means one thing -- they have no life. And this is a guy who hit Rank 11. And of course you can not take a week off or you will lose a rank or a high %.

FOR ME -- in CoV I feel like I accomplish something and the combat is so intense (with all the various powers and people flying around, etc...) that it feels epic.

In WoW everything feels the same -- all the mages have the same powers (some buffed with talent points...), hunters, Paladins, etc... They are all graphically the same. It just isn't impressive when 6 mages are all firing off Arcane missiles. While in CoV there are 6 different Corruptor types alone (I think) -- add in the various scrappers, brutes, masterminds, etc... and the powers are really unique and awesome when running around in a group.

WoW's combat just got boring for me. PvP was ok, but I was never happy that Horde had such better PvP racials -- all I ever fought was undead and taurens. Then in PvE it was so rank and file. Tank goes in first, blah, blah blah. BWL tried to fix this, but even in the end the encounter require a tank gathering aggro while the others wait to unleash.

WoW is a good game, but I also think part of the reason for its success is the Warcraft history. Not only is it a good game, but it had a good brand and he has stuff to keep people addicted -- items and honor.

I still think there is room for another big MMO or two. I think the Marvel comic one could be huge and of course anything else with an established fanbase. It also needs world wide appeal like WoW has.

The Continental

04-01-2006, 08:05 AM

I don't "stick it out" for any game, single player or MMO, doesn't matter. If something stops being fun, I drop it like a bad habbit and move on to something that IS fun.

If more people looked at WoW this way, the General forums for the game would be completely empty; Good on you Perigon. I just don't understand why so many people can't grasp this. When you are paying money for ENTERTAINMENT and it fails to entertain you, why would you keep doing it?

I left WoW in January after playing for a year, leveling four 60's on 3 different servers, two of were in heavy raiding guilds. I never plan on going back, regardless of the expansions, as no matter what content they add, the core mechanics will still be the same, and I tired of those long ago.

Wolfgang

04-01-2006, 08:06 AM

1% of the server?

Last I checked pretty much every level 60 on my server has run MC at least once, and guess what? with the progression of MMO's the newer expansions make older raid content easier thus allowing those with less time to dedicate to those instances the ability to raid them successfully and obtain loot key to progression.

Also I'd like to point out people who feel "WoW doesn't take skill" can pretty much burn in hell. As a guild leader in both WoW and EQ over the past 5 years I can assure you that skill gaps are very apparant. The reason why the top guilds are the top guilds is because they have 30-40 people dedicated to raiding who want to learn the encounter and maximize their ability to use their characters. However your average guild will have probably 10-15 people or less who actually want to raid, and the rest are just hangers on :P

On my old server which has been around since the game launched there were several who have never run MC. I say this because I know a lot haven't and can not spend more than 2hrs playing. They were in my guild which was clearing some AQ 40 when I quit. Edit: I would say it was probably 70% have done MC once. Also you need to do it a hell of a lot more than once. Getting a full set of tier1, 2, etc... is extremely time consuming and has 0 to do with skill.

I do agree that there are a select few Super Guilds in WoW that clear through content quickly -- but that is because it is easy and the good players with the good gear and zoom through it. Blizzard nerfs every dungeon, buffs stats and adds more items to help buff resist rates, etc... until even the newbie guild can clear raids -- which is fine and is how they are making raids appeal to casual players.

MC was really hard. Then they started to add Thorium brotherhood craftable items to help with fire resist so newbs could kill Rag easier. Of course the good players were killing Rags well before that.

That is what Blizzard does. A new dungeon is hard for that patch, then the next patch comes out and stuff is added to make it easier or they take stuff out of the dungeon to make it easier.

I would still say WoW is not that hard. I know so many Paladins that could not understand the concept of rebuffing while fighting and still healing -- they would come back with smartass remarks like "oh I didn't know you needed me to have two guys here." Like it was hard to rebuff the tank while healing him...

WoW does not force people to think outside the box yet. BWL is a good start, but sadly everyone just downloads strats for it and goes through the motions.

Otherwise most people just have the same mindset and hey -- if it worked in UBRS why shouldn't it work in BWL?

anakin876

04-01-2006, 10:25 AM

If you are naturally gifted you will advance quicker than those who are bad at reflexes and such. Let's hope it is well implemented.

those who are bad at reflexes? Did you mean those who HAVE bad reflexes? Because otherwise it sounds like a skill that you could, you know, train over TIME.

balamoor

04-01-2006, 10:39 AM

Do you know this for a fact or are you just speculating?

Why is it we can't have one thread about WoW or EQ or GW or SWG without it degrenerating into a why X game sucks thread.

I know it for a fact he spent the entire con with the Uber Guilds Order Of the Scared Sword, Fires Of Heaven (Which is his guild) And the ShintoX. OSS, and ShintoX both posted on their forums deals that Kaplan worked out with them about exclusive World events, and advance notice on new Raid content. It was taken down a day later when folks on the General WC forum started posting links to it.

The brief moment he participated in the Q&A his answer to everything was basically Raid or Quit…this even pissed off a couple of the developers, because he was interrupted at one point by Mike Morhaime, and was corrected when he told the Guild leader of The Company of The Wolf to quote unquote Learn to raid. By the End of the Con he was nowhere to be seen, and it’s a lucky thing because there were several people that would love to catch his sorry ass alone.

I'm not saying WoW sucks, I am saying that there are two major Raid Asshats steering a game that was suppose to be a Non Raid centric game and the majority of the population is sick of funding a game that caters to only 1% of the player base.

I have zero use for Kaplan he is a pompous use waste of skin, that has no business developing content for a popcap game much less World Of Warcraft.

51|RandoM

04-01-2006, 10:41 AM

The Continental

04-01-2006, 10:56 AM

I know it for a fact he spent the entire con with the Uber Guilds Order Of the Scared Sword, Fires Of Heaven (Which is his guild) And the ShintoX. OSS, and ShintoX both posted on their forums deals that Kaplan worked out with them about exclusive World events, and advance notice on new Raid content. It was taken down a day later when folks on the General WC forum started posting links to it.

The brief moment he participated in the Q&A his answer to everything was basically Raid or Quit…this even pissed off a couple of the developers, because he was interrupted at one point by Mike Morhaime, and was corrected when he told the Guild leader of The Company of The Wolf to quote unquote Learn to raid. By the End of the Con he was nowhere to be seen, and it’s a lucky thing because there were several people that would love to catch his sorry ass alone.

I'm not saying WoW sucks, I am saying that there are two major Raid Asshats steering a game that was suppose to be a Non Raid centric game and the majority of the population is sick of funding a game that caters to only 1% of the player base.

I have zero use for Kaplan he is a pompous use waste of skin, that has no business developing content for a popcap game much less World Of Warcraft.

Whoda thunk that hiring "designers" whose sole qualification was bitching about Everquest's content, would have produced the kind of game they have today...

WoW really had a chance to be the pvp game for the masses, between the actual setting and its fans, and the penalty free death system, I think WoW really missed an oppurtunity to shift the MMO paradigm from PvE treadmill to a dynamic, PvP focused end game. It appears however that they are still comitted to their vision of "EQ but better" from the 5 or so years ago in which they started developing WoW.

I have high hopes for Mythic's Warhammer MMO as they really seem to be understanding that people are getting tired of the same old MMO formula and I'm anxious to see what they do with it.

balamoor

04-01-2006, 11:08 AM

Whoda thunk that hiring "designers" whose sole qualification was bitching about Everquest's content, would have produced the kind of game they have today...

Yeah Kaplan in the hopes of trying to legitimized his position once said on his Blog that Brad McQuaid made a comment that if he knew Jeff was looking to break in the Business he would have hired him. Brad was asked if that was true at Gen Con 2005, after laughing a good Thirty seconds...his reply was "Ummmm No."

All Kaplan is good for is lying and chanting raid or Quit….. will Blizzard ever realize this and fire his sorry ass? One can only hope.

Wolfgang

04-01-2006, 01:38 PM

This is exactly the mindset required to stomach post-60th WoW. If you can equate "obtain loot" with "progression" then there is still progress post-60th, albeit microscopic.

The biggest challenges post-60th are people challenges, not game challenges. Last thing I need is a game to add more of those challenges I'm avoiding in real life. :-)

Good point. That is another problem with WoW. You can only make 40 man raids but so hard -- cause how many 40 man guilds are there going to be?

Part of the effort with the 40 man guilds is finding 39 other people dedicated enough to do them. So you can only make them but so hard until X% decide it isn't worth it.

The kill yourself for WoW hardcore raiding guilds are the what 1 to 2 per faction on each server -- so we can say upwards of 200 people, the rest just can not put the time into the raids so Blizzard can not make them super hard or require much skill. I mean, most guilds have a few good players who once they get some loot will jump ship to the better guilds unless they have a real loyal friendship to their guild members.

Neosho

04-01-2006, 02:25 PM

I'm sorry, but compared to games like FFXI, wow takes absolutely no skill.

Skill chain with a 45 second cast magic burst at the end. That's all that needs to be said.

Zeal

04-01-2006, 02:38 PM

Skill chain with a 45 second cast magic burst at the end.

Hearing jargon like this every thirty seconds also contributed to me calling it quits.

"YO YO LEMME GET A BUFF OF CRUSADER WITH A COOLDOWN SEQUENCE OF 3 MINUS 2 TO THE THIRD RETRIBUTION AURA DEBUFF BLOCKING LIQUID FART."

Neosho

04-01-2006, 02:41 PM

Hearing jargon like this every thirty seconds also contributed to me calling it quits.

"YO YO LEMME GET A BUFF OF CRUSADER WITH A COOLDOWN SEQUENCE OF 3 MINUS 2 TO THE THIRD RETRIBUTION AURA DEBUFF BLOCKING LIQUID FART."

So i take it you'll be quitting the internet soon because of the "O Rlys" and the "OMGWTFS!"? Too much jargon? :p

Achilles

04-01-2006, 04:09 PM

WOW sucks because it requires no skill. The game is based on time. The more time you spend the farther you get. There are no mental challenges. No physical challenges.WoW is so popular because anyone can pick up and play it, advance their character and do well at the game. But if you think that how you play doesn't matter you're kidding yourself. Everyone who's played WoW for any amount of time knows that someone's skill matters a great deal to the group's survivability.

Ever been in a bad group in WoW? Maybe you haven't but I have. It was bad because the people in it couldn't play the game very well; they'll pull the wrong mobs, draw too much aggro, not draw enough, not watch other party member's health bars, not use the right abilities at the right time, etc.

It doesn't require much skill to solo PvE, but people shouldn't need to be great at playing video games in order to acomplish something.

Citizen Philip

04-01-2006, 04:13 PM

As per raid or quit: As I mentioned earlier, the raiding content is NOT hard. The few guilds that figured out how to work an original strat had a hard time, everyone else has to follow their plan. As it is said, know your role STFU and press the two buttons you need to press during a raid != skill, talent, ability or fun,

What is hard is that the game has ZERO support for end-game raiding to make finding 39 people easy. No built-in point systems for awarding loot, no voice support, no roster of users, etc. It's all up to the players to develop a whole infrastructure outside of the game to actually play the game: which in my opinon is horseshit.

Phanto

04-01-2006, 06:35 PM

People would laugh of me after I said this but one game I can be sure that would be absolute great as a MMORPG would be Pokemon and no this not a joke taking the gameplay from Pokemon Silver and putting it in MMORPG that game would be really great honestly, imagine creating your character, catching pokemons, training and lvl up your pokemons, teaching new abilities attacks, battling other player e.c.t, competing in Leagues against other players. I know Pokemon haters are laughing at me right now, and no I'm not huge fan but I know that this game could have a great potential of becoming a great MMORPG just like WoW or who knows maybe better.

Anyway thats just an idea that I haved since a long time, who knows maybe will happend or maybe not :cool: .

Shifteh

04-01-2006, 08:29 PM

Would it be nice if there were a dozen 5 man dungeons for level 60s? 3 or 4 giant zones filled with stuff to do? hundreds of questlines that offered substantial rewards for end game players? Of course. But those things take time to produce. A LOT of time.

Like say, an entire year and over a billion dollars?

I tried to get back into WoW, but I just couldn't do it. I knew what awaited me at 60 again. I knew I'd have to grind, and grind, and grind. I don't know 30 other people who play the game, and I don't have time to run an instance that can take more than five hours.

WoW is a timesink. You can enjoy the game, that's cool, but at least recognize the whole game is about time invested, not skill.

kid cabelgo

04-02-2006, 01:39 PM

Wolfgang

04-02-2006, 02:02 PM

What i don't understand about most of the posters on this thread is that it seems like you guys don't realize that you have the option to make a SECOND CHARACTER. I realize you're attached to your lvl60 warrior, but try being something else! Make an alt on the other side!

Most people seem to agree that the game is really fun until you hit 60, so just do that again. Nobody plays a FPS game, beats it, and then just loads the last level over and over and over again, complaining how the game gets boring once you beat it.

Why? I wanted to be heroic, not a constant guy going from level 1 to 60. I wanted to conquer the bad guys, continue to evolve the story.

If I go alt crazy I have to rebuild all my Reputation, I have to lose honor, I have to reaquire gear, I have to do the exact same quest lines again. That does not appeal to me.

You are comparing two different genres. WoW is setup so that your character is supposed to grow as you conquer more. Instead the only way you grow in WoW is via items. You get exalted with Argent Dawn, great -- here are some new items. You get Lt. Cmdr, great here are some more items.

Gaining faction does not further the story, it does not open new quests (well Hydraxion Warlords does so you can get an item for MC), but faction is for items -- it would be cool if I could become exalted with the Argent Dawn and join their ranks and get new quests. Hitting Lt. Cmdr got me more gear, it didn't advance anything for me. The Kings of the towns never saluted me or thanked me for the killing I had done in the name of the kingdom.

Edit: There is no expectation while playing a FPS that replaying the last level your guy will get better, etc... While playing a MMO it is expected that your character will continue to grow.

kid cabelgo

04-03-2006, 08:50 AM

Why? I wanted to be heroic, not a constant guy going from level 1 to 60. I wanted to conquer the bad guys, continue to evolve the story.

If I go alt crazy I have to rebuild all my Reputation, I have to lose honor, I have to reaquire gear, I have to do the exact same quest lines again. That does not appeal to me.

You are comparing two different genres. WoW is setup so that your character is supposed to grow as you conquer more. Instead the only way you grow in WoW is via items. You get exalted with Argent Dawn, great -- here are some new items. You get Lt. Cmdr, great here are some more items.

Gaining faction does not further the story, it does not open new quests (well Hydraxion Warlords does so you can get an item for MC), but faction is for items -- it would be cool if I could become exalted with the Argent Dawn and join their ranks and get new quests. Hitting Lt. Cmdr got me more gear, it didn't advance anything for me. The Kings of the towns never saluted me or thanked me for the killing I had done in the name of the kingdom.

Edit: There is no expectation while playing a FPS that replaying the last level your guy will get better, etc... While playing a MMO it is expected that your character will continue to grow.

So what you're saying is that you want a game that has no end.

When someone creates a game that literally has infinite possibilities, I'm sure it will sell like hotcakes and people will love it, but until then, we have to deal with the fact that these are games that are made by real people. There will come a point in every game where there just won't be anything left to do.

Wolfgang

04-03-2006, 09:33 AM

So what you're saying is that you want a game that has no end.

When someone creates a game that literally has infinite possibilities, I'm sure it will sell like hotcakes and people will love it, but until then, we have to deal with the fact that these are games that are made by real people. There will come a point in every game where there just won't be anything left to do.

edit: I did not say I wanted a game with No end. That would be almost impossible. I do want a game with some variation. I want a game with outside of instance events that is determined by who tags it first or who has the spawn times memorized.

City of Villains tries to fix that. No instance is exactly the same. Some instances can have random apperances of Key villains/heroes. The missions auto adjust depending on how many are in your group.

I do not think there should be endless possibilities, I do think they should be somewhat random. Instead I have every encounter in WoW memorized. I have every dunegon pull down like th back of my hand.

City of Villains is not perfect -- a lot of the instances will look the same, but at least they do not have the exact same pull. There is an outside chance of encounters with key villains/heroes and they have a lot more world events.

WoW could do a lot within their engine to make things better. Where are the city attacks we were promised? There are now 3 outdoor events -- elemental invasion, the 4 dragons and Kazzak/Azuergos. The Dragons/Kazzak/Azuergos just while waiting for people to come kill them. They do not go on some rampage where players must save the zone from them.

None of the dungeons are random in WoW. Dire Maul will adjust a few pulls randomly, but it is 95% the same each time. The zone does not change in appearance.

Blizzard says they are adding the "Opera House" which will be a random instance. Could be cool.

A lot of you guys seem to think items is what makes the difference between casual and hardcore. Therefore 1.10 blurs the lines. How? Any casual content is open to hardcore. Content is what people want... not virtual items. The casual player wants to defeat Rag, Onyixa, Nef, etc... So the lines are not blurred.

No game is perfect -- but Blizzard could do a hell of a lot more to make running MC, BWL, etc.. more fun. Instead I find myself surfing the web while in MC.

Roc Ingersol

04-03-2006, 10:52 AM

Here's the thing. I bitch because I still enjoy the game. If I wasn't having fun, I wouldn't bitch at all. There'd be no point to complaining.

It's because I enjoy the game, that I complain about the complete lack of engaging 5 man content, since Dire Maul.

My druid just hit 60 this weekend. In a couple weeks, he'll join my mage, paladin, shaman, and rogue as "60s I don't really play anymore". Why? Because after a few BRS/BRD/Scholo/Strat/DM runs, that's it. There's nothing else to do. There are no real fun quest lines at 60. (excepting maybe battle for darrowshire and rakh'likh) There's just running dungeons over and over again for loot. over and over.

As for faction, I've already put so much time into my 60 warrior's faction, that I'm not about to bother doing it again. Not enough time to actually get anywhere.

Because that's all it is: time spent grinding toward vendor items. There aren't engaging quests to go along with the faction grinds. The 1.9 furbolg corruption quests were ok-ish. shame they're the exception. (The Field Duty stuff is 95% sick joke.)

Sure, it takes a while to make 5man content, and it gets consumed faster. Trick is, non-raiders don't tend to play as much as I do. It might take raiders all of an afternoon to beat new 5 man content, but the casual audience is going to take much longer. And guys like me get to do it 6 times, at least.
So the investment/payoff isn't as bad as it might sound.

I'm just pissed off because there hasn't been any new dungeons for non-raiders, for over a year. Sure, the raid game was weak at launch. But the non-raid game is pretty frickin stale at this point. If they started a new 5 man dungeon last summer when this argument first consumed the boards, it'd be ready to go in 1.11.
But they didn't. That's what bugs me.