Defending Final Fantasy XII

[Kefkataran]

Everyone's favorite (or most maligned) games journalist, Tim Rogers, has a new and rather lengthy (surprise, surprise) article over at Next Generation (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2591&Itemid=2). In the article, Tim tackles the various bits of ill will being tossed at the new Final Fantasy from the forum-going crowd. Here's some good bits:

Square-Enix actually did a commendable job in balancing the difficulty of the battles by implementing the aforementioned "Gambit" system. During battles, you hardly need to touch the menus at all. You program your AI party members with detailed, prioritized scripts called Gambits. Say you put "Ally with less than 30% HP remaining" as the "target" and "Cast 'Cure magic'" at "#1," and "Closest enemy" and "Attack" at "#2." This will make a character attack all enemies that get close, though instantly cast cure on any ally whose HP falls below 30%. This is, essentially, what you would do in an RPG anyway. Yasumi Matsuno, Final Fantasy XII's producer, obviously realizes how superfluous all of this button-pressing is. When you turn up the battle speed, the game progresses at a wonderful clip.
This is where producer Yasumi Matsuno shines most -- in creating straightforward game concepts that eliminate waste. Matsuno saw a way to get rid of the tedium of role-playing games (heal when low on HP, attack, attack, attack, get hurt, heal again, attack, attack) by implementing a simple AI programming scheme. The dead simplicity of the AI programming scheme, however, rather violently lays bare the fact that RPGs are, generally, predictable and tedious.Final Fantasy games have always been about relentless, free-spirited reinvention. As long as the few common elements (Chocobos, creatures known as Moogles, a common character named "Cid," airships in the sky, magic spells with names like "Cure" and "Fire") are in place, the game design must be free in order to be interesting. There is no continuous story. There never has been (except for Final Fantasy X-2, which was obviously just a practical joke).
Good stuff from Next-Gen and Tim, as usual. I gotta admit, this article going into depth about the battle system and a little about the story makes me much more excited to try FFXII than anything else I've seen about it so far.

[Grimmjow]

e and a buddy of mine was playing the import, this shyt is GREAT!

[crashedout]

Wow, this make me more interested. As he points out most JRPG's are stale and predictable. Something new? Sign me up.

[Kelegacy]

Looking forward to this. I didn't play the demo because I didn't want to tease (or disappoint) myself.

[JazGalaxy]

It's depressing how far the series has gotten from being an actual GAME, and how many people like the inescapable march toward being movies that games are taking.

Final Fantasy battles were never supposed to be tedious, because at any point in time, you could die. Not only that, because you had only a limited number of health regenerating possibilities, you had to think ahead and plan. Do you want to waste an attack turn with Cecil to try and get in a quick heal before Rosa can caste some serious heal magic, or do you want to press your luck and stay on the offensive? Do you want to put everyone in attack mode and try to finish the badguy off, or do you want to try and hedge your bet by using potions to keep people alive while you dwindle the enemies points down?

Almost every single FF since 6 has been getting dumber and dumber in the strategy area, and this one seems like it's going to take the cake. Programming your charachters to fight FOR you strips away any vestige of gameplay the series had left, and simply says out loud "Final Fantasy is meant to be watched, not played."

[ProfPuppet]

Sounds somewhat like what made me dislike Dungeon Siege. People were saying "Yeah, I can go make a sandwich while my characters fight for me! They'll heal themselves and suchlike." ...But... Why bother playing if the thing plays itself? (Not that there's no interaction required, just a lot less.)

I'm not saying this FF is going to be just like that, but I think that setting up your own scripts to run the thing is a somewhat bad path to take. I dunno, maybe I'm just bitter and jaded on FF since I fucking loathed having to fight the same monsters over and over in VIII for the damn link system they had between spells and weapons/abilities.

[Mason]

I likely would've had a lot higher opinion of the demo had it let you play with Gambits and Licenses.

That said, praising the game for planting an insta-death neutral creature right outside the first town? I don't care what it tells you in the manual, that's just rude.

The one problem I'll have is if the Gambit system doesn't add up to anything more than setting up a basic competent AI. If it's a "write once and forget" sort of thing, then honestly they could've just scrapped the whole thing and written static AIs. I'm hoping the game gives you lots of good reasons to tweak for different situations (without making it a burden).

[Mason]

The article messed up its reference to FFIV. Golbez isn't Cecil's father. Pedantry, thy name is Mason.

[Mason]

Almost every single FF since 6 has been getting dumber and dumber in the strategy area, and this one seems like it's going to take the cake. Programming your charachters to fight FOR you strips away any vestige of gameplay the series had left, and simply says out loud "Final Fantasy is not meant to be watched, not played."
Strategically, FFX was probably the most mature of the bunch. I like a lot of the earlier FFs, but I breezed through them as a child. FF6 is likely my favorite JRPG, but each character had basically 1 good way to attack, and there weren't a lot of interesting decisions.

[NoName]

Almost every single FF since 6 has been getting dumber and dumber in the strategy area, and this one seems like it's going to take the cake. Programming your charachters to fight FOR you strips away any vestige of gameplay the series had left, and simply says out loud "Final Fantasy is meant to be watched, not played."
It's so sad but true. This is why FF4jh is still my favorite in the series :/ (FF4 jap hardtype)

[Kefkataran]

That said, praising the game for planting an insta-death neutral creature right outside the first town? I don't care what it tells you in the manual, that's just rude.

But you don't have to fight it and it doesn't attack you. I sort of agree with Tim on this one. Hell, in a lot of ways its no worse (or even better!) than the Midgard serpent at the early swamp area of Final Fantasy VII. You couldn't (easily) beat that sucker, either, and he even tried to attack you. It's a quick way of teaching players "This is a whole new game with a whole new style. Don't attack the fucking dinosaur."

I'm hoping the game gives you lots of good reasons to tweak for different situations (without making it a burden).

Agreed, and considering how most FF games work, I think it would. I mean you'll want to be planning and changing strategies up depending on what bosses you're fighting and such.

I don't really understand the "OMFG it's more movie than game!!" complaints, myself. Like Tim says, it's still doing everything every Final Fantasy game has done before, it's just removing the tedium. You'll STILL be able to die in any battle, and I'm sure there will still be battles that require quick, sudden action and thinking. If this battle system is as well-implemented as Tim and Famitsu would suggest, I think it'll be an absolute blast.

[Heretic Machine]

I'll give the game a try, but I will not buy it until I've been able to play it myself for a couple of hours. I've been burned by JRPG's, and this company specifically, too many times.

[Kefkataran]

I'll give the game a try, but I will not buy it until I've been able to play it myself for a couple of hours. I've been burned by JRPG's, and this company specifically, too many times.

Definitely not a bad idea. At the very least, I'll be holding out for further reviews from American publications.

[Borys]

I'll give the game a try, but I will not buy it until I've been able to play it myself for a couple of hours. I've been burned by JRPG's, and this company specifically, too many times.

Seems like the smartest thing to do.

As for me, one of the biggest FF fans on this site, I predict a massive disappointment on my side just because this will be the least FF-like FF game ever (too many changes).

Oh well... any FF game is better than no FF game, right?

[Deadend]

I haven't read too much into the gambit system, but it sounds nice, as most fights in FF games are random encounters that are a waste of time, as most monsters need the same tactics to use against them.

I see the AI as a way to take care of the battles that can be automated.

Go play a JRPG, notice how you use the same strategy in 50% of the battles?

Now, if the Gambit system can be used in the other 50% of battles, such as exploiting enemy weaknesses automaticaly, getting good priority, laying down your buffs and such. The system intriqgues me, as does the liscense system. Hell, I am hyped for FF XII just because of all the people bitching about the game.

The problem with Dungeon Siege playing itself was that the game was JUST a hack-and-slash game. there was no plotline or anything really, so there was nothing for the player, there were no real mazes to figure out or anything, the game was simplistic, and then it took away the fun by fighting for you, when thats all there was.

I think this is a good step for the series.

Oh, and Kefkataran, you are so getting siggy action This is a whole new game with a whole new style. Don't attack the fucking dinosaur."

[rainbowblack]

It's depressing how far the series has gotten from being an actual GAME, and how many people like the inescapable march toward being movies that games are taking.

Final Fantasy battles were never supposed to be tedious, because at any point in time, you could die. Not only that, because you had only a limited number of health regenerating possibilities, you had to think ahead and plan. Do you want to waste an attack turn with Cecil to try and get in a quick heal before Rosa can caste some serious heal magic, or do you want to press your luck and stay on the offensive? Do you want to put everyone in attack mode and try to finish the badguy off, or do you want to try and hedge your bet by using potions to keep people alive while you dwindle the enemies points down?

Almost every single FF since 6 has been getting dumber and dumber in the strategy area, and this one seems like it's going to take the cake. Programming your charachters to fight FOR you strips away any vestige of gameplay the series had left, and simply says out loud "Final Fantasy is meant to be watched, not played."

amen!, although i must say, as long as i enjoy the story, i dont carehow much SE changed FF dynamics. FFXII is the first FF since VIII that ive looked forward too, after VIII can ya blame me?

[Kefkataran]

Oh, and Kefkataran, you are so getting siggy action

Shit yeah! IN YO' FACE, MASON!

[Roc Ingersol]

I have this crazy idea: if every combat is so same-y and derivative that you can program your party to respond to it with a simple, simple AI scheme...
maybe you should do something about the same-y and derivative combat?

You know what the number one problem of lame n same rpg combat is? No tactical movement in battle. It's all stand and deliver -- maybe position and deliver.
But almost never is their re-positioning, or area denial, or use of the environment for cover or improvisational tactics.

Hell, most times there isn't even a point to combat -- but that's a whole other complaint.

[Zeal]

The game plays almost identical to FFXI and actually feels more like an offline MMORPG. Now that I think about it, the game plays a lot like an action RPG, such as Brave Fencer or Seiken Densetsu.

It has the best graphics on PS2, but don't go in expecting to play a FF.

[Mason]

Shit yeah! IN YO' FACE, MASON!
How so? I plan to attack the dinosaur. :D

[Mason]

I have this crazy idea: if every combat is so same-y and derivative that you can program your party to respond to it with a simple, simple AI scheme...
maybe you should do something about the same-y and derivative combat?

You know what the number one problem of lame n same rpg combat is? No tactical movement in battle. It's all stand and deliver -- maybe position and deliver.
But almost never is their re-positioning, or area denial, or use of the environment for cover or improvisational tactics.

This has long since been my feeling. Games either have FF-style no-positioning (which limits tactical depth) or tactics-style absolute positioning (which involves a lot of dicking around and min-maxing). I'd far prefer to see more turn-based games with qualitative, relative positioning. Not "move this character to square 8,1", but generalized stuff, like flank to the left of the enemy. If done properly it has a lot of potential for depth without goofy unit twiddling and exploiting the system taking the place of actual tactics (i.e. 1 "speed" being the difference between an easily-dispatched ranged unit, and one that is impossible for melee to catch).

[captainspankypants]

Sounds like you guys just want to play a "tactics" game ala Disgaea rather than this type of RPG. I don't blame you. I say give me direct control over my character like in Diablo 2 or let me use strategy like in Final Fantasy Tactics, but don't corner my characters and give them little to no options outside of "attack - attack - heal - attack - attack - heal."

I know the genre was born from the old tabletop games, but that doesn't mean they need to be about as fun and involving as rolling dice.

[Ghost_Saint]

You know what the number one problem of lame n same rpg combat is? No tactical movement in battle. It's all stand and deliver -- maybe position and deliver.

Shadow Hearts 2 and 3 did this, so did Chrono Trigger to a lesser degree. Spells all have areas of effect, and units move around, but you never really control where they move. Shadow Hearts 2 probably got it the closest to what you're wanting because it combo your attacks you had to place your characters right next to each other, but that put them in prime position for a spell that could affect all of them, and throw them out of position.

I'm really enjoying shadow Hearts 3's battle system as well because you have to juggle your enemies to a certain height for certain spells to work, and then that spell will put them at a diffrent hieght so that only certain spells will chain into the combo. You also have to build up a bar to combo, the catch is that enemies can build up this bar to and combo you (which hurts), and even do double combos(where one character attacks twice in one turn and then combos with the next character). Throw in the judgment ring and it never feels like they tried to make menu navagation into a game.

[AspectVoid]

It's a quick way of teaching players "This is a whole new game with a whole new style. Don't attack the fucking dinosaur."


Thank you, Kef. You just gave me a great quote to use in a sig. I absolutely love that.

As for the game, I did play the demo, and to be honest, the combat still felt completely Final Fantasy to me. The lack of transition to a battle screen was wonderful too. I really have no problems with the demo, so I am sorta looking forward to the game. To be honest, though, right now I'm too addicted to Oblivion and Suikoden V to really worry about FF, though.

[Zeal]

The dinosaur killed me in a single hit.

In response, I popped in Action Replay and returned the favor.

[Vandenh]

The next step for FF... auto play. Great!



NOT!

[F3nyx]

Programming your charachters to fight FOR you strips away any vestige of gameplay the series had left, and simply says out loud "Final Fantasy is meant to be watched, not played."Isn't "programming your characters to fight for you," rather than personal combat, what JRPGs have always been about, anyway? You only give characters orders, you're never the one that aims an arrow and shoots it.

I enjoy playing old SNES JRPGs on emulator from time to time, and I would love having an optional gambit system for all the fights where I'm just getting XP off weak enemies. It's fucking boring to select the same basic attack over and over. For major battles, where strategy is much more important, I'd return to manual control.

I don't think the article mentions whether using the Gambit system is optional or not. It definitely should be; there's no reason to alienate your userbase by forcing them to use a substitute system when it's just as easy to implement both.

Also, nice triple post, Mason... postcount++, I guess.

[Zeal]

The next step for FF... auto play. Great!



NOT!

It's funny you say that, because you actually can set FFXII's combat as automatic. What you do is setup your Gambits so that all party members, including the leader, auto-attack with a pre-specified set of commands.

i.e., fire>summon>heal

Essentially, the only thing the player's doing is running around. Oh, and as with KOTOR or Jade Empire, you can turn the pause before combat off, making the game's combat system entirely realtime.

[Heretic Machine]

Thank you, Kef. You just gave me a great quote to use in a sig. I absolutely love that.

As for the game, I did play the demo, and to be honest, the combat still felt completely Final Fantasy to me. The lack of transition to a battle screen was wonderful too. I really have no problems with the demo, so I am sorta looking forward to the game. To be honest, though, right now I'm too addicted to Oblivion and Suikoden V to really worry about FF, though.

How is Suikoden V? Is it as good as the other games?

[Nojiko]

It sounds to me more like that this 'automatic' combat can only really be taken advantage of in the truly tedious and obligatory normal battles that you get into constantly while outside of towns and such in these types of games. And that if you were to encounter something worse, some particularly hard monster and definitely if it was a boss fight, that I'd imagine there's too much going on to simply stick with your automatic fighting presets.

I could be wrong though, never having played it. That's just my perception of what they're saying. The 100 battles I get into between one area and another, some way to make that less boring and let me experiment with programming my characters to work for me? Sounds kinda interesting, though just like any battle system I've even liked, it'll still have it's novelty wear off after a while, cool or not.

If I can literally program a preset that just flat out works, even against bosses and tougher groups of enemies though, then meh. That is pretty lame. I'd like to have some game with my story, please sir. If I wanted to watch fantasy people go off on a quest for hours and hours, I'd watch the LotR trilogy again, I play a game to _play_ it.

[bean19]

I have this crazy idea: if every combat is so same-y and derivative that you can program your party to respond to it with a simple, simple AI scheme...
maybe you should do something about the same-y and derivative combat?

Agreed.

However, the way I'm thinking this will work is that I get to just watch cool fights and play minor damage control while concentrating on exploration, puzzles, etc. and then I'll become more engaged by the combat in specific situations like boss battles.

Also, I think we'll be doing a bit more than just letting the gambit play out. If they are anything like the other FF games, there will be specific ways to exploit a mob's weaknesses and excel.

[gzsfrk]

Seems like the smartest thing to do.

As for me, one of the biggest FF fans on this site, I predict a massive disappointment on my side just because this will be the least FF-like FF game ever (too many changes).

Oh well... any FF game is better than no FF game, right?

Holy crap! Borys is back!

Welcome home, man! It's been sadly quiet here without EvAv's favorite son(y) in absentia. =)

[Zeal]

What I wanna know is how the hell the game has full-screen anti-aliasing.

[Kefkataran]

How so? I plan to attack the dinosaur.

Oh no you didn't! You're gonna get fucking CHOMPED, man.

Thank you, Kef. You just gave me a great quote to use in a sig. I absolutely love that.

Two people with Kefka quotes! I am loved! Today is a day for rejoicing and dancing in the streets!

To be honest, though, right now I'm too addicted to Oblivion and Suikoden V to really worry about FF, though.

How is Suikoden V? I haven't heard a damned thing about it since I found out it was being released.

[Megalith]

Final Fantasy VIII is still the best FF.

Confirmed.

[Kefkataran]

You added a couple extra I's to Final Fantasy VI. Might wanna get that checked out, man.

[Kayler]

Does anyone know of a game that I can pay $50 for and not actually have to play it? Even better, can it have 16 hours of FMV, and 2 hours of gameplay?

[geckokidd]

I've played all (mainstream US) of the FF's and I'm quite excited for this one as well.

[ProfPuppet]

Final Fantasy VIII is still the best FF.

Confirmed.

!#@$ing junction system. That killed the game for me. That and not draining some monster and learning I had missed out on getting a summon until it showed up again 75%+ through the game.

[thecrazyd]

Final Fantasy VIII is still the best FF.

Confirmed.
That is the wrongest thing you have ever said in your long and sorid history of saying wrong things.

[Heretic Machine]

Well, I just found out that once again, there is no playable Moogle character... -.- I'll pass until Squaresoft gives me my Moogles, dammit!

[Kefkataran]

That is kind of bullshit, Perigon, I agree. Coincidence that the best FF (VI) had a playable Moogle? Not at all.

[Venkman]

JRPG fans, wait for Valkyrie Profile for PS2. It will rock your socks.

[Kefkataran]

Wait, Velkyrie Profile for PS2? Wasn't that a rare (and supposedly great) PS1 RPG?

[Heretic Machine]

That is kind of bullshit, Perigon, I agree. Coincidence that the best FF (VI) had a playable Moogle? Not at all.

Damn straight! Mog is the man! Ian is the man too, for giving me a Mog mod for Morrowind, and planning one for Oblivion :)

[Zeal]

IV and VI are the best.

[Wasson_]

Xenogears people- It has Giant Robots!!!11! Plus it's combat system is fun enough to use that it makes even random battles actually quite entertaining- espescially at higher lvls when your characters get a bunch of uber moves.

But about this "gambit" system...It sounds like it'll make the battles much more visceral and interisting. It doesn't sound like auto-play to me, it sounds more like "logic"...What a novel idea, have the characters behave like people and not mindless pawns.

[Heretic Machine]

Xenogears people- It has Giant Robots!!!11!

Ya, it's great, but it's not a Final Fantasy game.

[Zeal]

Xenogears is superior to any FF. Believe it.

[Deadend]

I just realized that the gambit system could be amazing!

I want the gambit system for WoW!

Hell, I want the gambit system for myself, I could use it while running the register, so my brain can do more amusing things!

Also, what is so bad about 20 hours of story for $50? That is the price of 2.5 DVD movies, but waaay longer, so thus... if the story is good, it's a great deal, just tape your analog stick in the foreward position, sit back and enjoy the show!

[Kefkataran]

Damn straight! Mog is the man! Ian is the man too, for giving me a Mog mod for Morrowind, and planning one for Oblivion

Planned for Oblivion? YEEHAW! Can't wait to be getting some sweet mod action on there.

[Heretic Machine]

Planned for Oblivion? YEEHAW! Can't wait to be getting some sweet mod action on there.


Taken from Machall.com:

Ian obtains Oblivion.

I find it silly that of the stores that carry games in this town only one had the PC version of the game. The rest had shelves of the Xbox 360 version. I know two people that have a 360 and neither are even in this state.

Beginning installation. I expect at some point I'll try my hands at modding the game, however I'd like to point out it took almost two years for valid export inport tools became available for Morrowind. I also have to figure out how rigid the skeleton system is in this game. Looking at screenshots it looks more rigid than morrowind which suggests that I won't be able to match the mog to the player build without it being destorted even more that I already have. Disheartening.

Maybe I'm being too optimistic by saying that it's planned... But I really hope he at least makes the models and such <.< I don't need anything extensive.

[Kefkataran]

That would be kick-ass. Here's hoping.

[mister_slim]

Wait, Velkyrie Profile for PS2? Wasn't that a rare (and supposedly great) PS1 RPG?
Valkyrie Profile: Silmeria (I think) is for the PS2, and is a sequel. Valkyrie Profile: Lenneth (I think) is for the PSP and is a port of the original. Names could be backwards or wrong.

[Kefkataran]

Valkyrie Profile: Silmeria (I think) is for the PS2, and is a sequel. Valkyrie Profile: Lenneth (I think) is for the PSP and is a port of the original. Names could be backwards or wrong.

Oh, cool. I need to play the original yet. Perhaps I shall now.

[overdrivechao]

Final Fantasy VIII is still the best FF.

Confirmed.
All it confirms is your state of being completely devoid of class.