Ageia PhysX and G.R.A.W.

[KarmaGhost]

For those looking to make explosions more pretty, Ageia's PhysX may be the answer. The company has posted two comparison videos (http://physx.ageia.com/footage.html) that demonstrate the added details that the PPU can offer, particularly in Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter. At $300 each, the cards require supported software, so don't go thinking this will speed up Half-Life 2 or Oblivion.


http://lbegley.googlepages.com/PPU_Comparison.jpg

via joystiq (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/03/25/ageia-physx-card-makes-explosions-look-pretty/)

[mister_slim]

So, basically, you can have more immersive physics but it makes it more difficult to see what's going on in the game?

[KarmaGhost]

I think in the hunt for more "realistic" games, there are some effects that make things more difficult. I don't like the HDR Valve implemented in Source because it makes things more difficult to see, but it (arguably) makes it more true-to-life.

[Grimmjow]

i can say it atleast does look better ;0

[Draft]

Pretty retarded. We need less expensive add on cards, not more.

[Zeal]

If that's all you get for $300, I ain't impressed. This will probably become standard on GPUs, anyway.

[sflufan]

Consider me sold on this PPU thing!

[bapenguin]

That's funny, the 2nd video looks exactly like an explosion on the 360. Also..does anyone else hear a girl moan in the sound?

[DeadPixel]

I just ordered a new XPS system from Dell and noticed this card was an option on the customization page for around $300. I did some research and realized there are no titles natively supporting it besides GRAW, so I passed on it.

GRAW is not enough for me to spend $300 just to see better explosions :)

[swiftdraw]

I remember reading somewhere Nvidia was working with some company to intergrate a physics processor with its video cards... Don't remember where I saw it though.

[jwbxx]

That explosion was pretty fucken slick, but I'm not willing to pay 300 bucks for an explosion. Unless it's real life C4, then maybe.

[Rangoth]

Hmm....an additionaly $300 for the PC version of G.R.A.W. or $50 for the same thing on the 360 right now? Tough choice...

[ProfPuppet]

Look at that Cellfactor movie on there. Damn. Very impressive for the first 45 seconds or so, then it got old. But pretty neat.

Still though, I'm not about to shell out a lot of extra money for this unless a crapton of games are covered.

...The hell, City of Villains is effected by this?!? I can't imagine it would have much difference in that game...

[alienchild]

as long as it doesn't affect gameplay, Im not interested whatsoever. I want HL2 only more realistic!

[Kyro]

I can't say I would be willing to shell out 300 for this... after all, that's comparable to a good video card and with Nvidia/Havok's new physics combo (using the video card for it) an Sli setup would be just as good and you get a new video card to boot (for those games that you just don't need fancy explosions in)

[Thenetcase]

If that's all you get for $300, I ain't impressed. This will probably become standard on GPUs, anyway.

Well that's a smart thing to say since nVidia just announced that they've teamed up with someone to make a GPU with physics engines built in.

=TNC=

[ElectricMonk]

i was also quite impressed by the cell factor video.

might be a pretty sweet game if it has more than one level :P

[Shifteh]

I think in the hunt for more "realistic" games, there are some effects that make things more difficult.

This makes the effect bigger, not more realistic. It's very Hollywood, for sure, but it's a little too over the top.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

Hmm....an additionaly $300 for the PC version of G.R.A.W. or $50 for the same thing on the 360 right now? Tough choice...


Actually the 360 version costs $60 - $10 more than the PC version will. ;)

Not to mention that you have to buy a 360 ($400) and a nice HDTV ($1500ish or more) to enjoy the pretty graphics at their fullest.

[Sazime]

One day, it will be standard, or at least only cost $100. Build that shit in my MB boyos, and I'll buy it. I just hope it catches on a bit.

[Busted_Astromech]

Huh? The 'non-Physx' video didn't even blow the truck up...how can you compare it? It only did enough damage to pop open the door and blow down the hatch...what comes next is the explosion.

Somewhat manipulative comparison. Okay, scratch that, extremely manipulative comparison.

[Ph00p]

Jesus talk about going BACKWARDS! Fucking making add in cards for aspects of games instead of integrating like Nvidia wants to do, but Nvidia is using Havok I think or something like that, FUCK thats just what we need now a PPU war for us consumers to get fucked over in.
The worst part is, you'll still need a $500 GPU to make the games look good enough to start worrying about how great the stupid fucking physics will look.

I hope this card bombs faster than a voodoo banshe.

[Zanzibar]

Wait a minute. I haven't played GRAW yet, but everything I've seen from explosions from the game looks like the Physics version on the right, not the lame version on the left. They say it's "high end physics", but is it possible they're using "medium range graphics", and THAT'S why the one on the left looks so crappy?

[Pretzel]

Wait a minute. I haven't played GRAW yet, but everything I've seen from explosions from the game looks like the Physics version on the right, not the lame version on the left. They say it's "high end physics", but is it possible they're using "medium range graphics", and THAT'S why the one on the left looks so crappy?

Exactly. This is a BS comparison because they're not showing what the physics card is supposed to do for you--which is speed up physics processing. To do this, they should show us the same effect on a machine without the physics card and then compare the frame rate. Unless they show us how the scene they run on the physics card runs like without one, then they might as well just be photoshopping the effects in.

They need to show us stats. If we see that the effects run at 60 fps on their card vs. 10 fps on a regular cpu, no one could argue. But if it's like a difference bettween 60 fps and say, 50 fps, then you have to wonder if you can spend that $300 on a better video card or something.

[Mason]

Either the PhysX card dies or PC gaming dies. How could an expensive toy like this become essential without finishing off the PC as a gaming platform?

[kokyunage]

This card would also be useless in any type of multiplayer environment where it the physics have to match up exactly on each client (i.e. most games).

[Inverarity]

Either the PhysX card dies or PC gaming dies. How could an expensive toy like this become essential without finishing off the PC as a gaming platform?

It's funny- even before I saw this note I was considering posting about my increasing distaste for the expense of keeping current with PC hardware. I think you've got a good point here, Mason; it's products like this that will start scaring off all but the most fanatical gamers, should they become prevalent.

Specialized processors - and the never-ending parade of updated video cards, and Vista's rumored 2GB memory requirement, etc. - could very well kill off PC gaming. Consoles will become too sensible an option for casual and mid-range gamers...

[Tyrant]

A physics add on card or a substantially more powerful, dual core CPU that I currently lack? That's a real toughie...

[Phades]

Actually the 360 version costs $60 - $10 more than the PC version will. ;)

Not to mention that you have to buy a 360 ($400) and a nice HDTV ($1500ish or more) to enjoy the pretty graphics at their fullest.

And we all know that the 360 is the ONLY reason you'd want a nice HDTV. :rolleyes:

By the way, you don't have to spend "$1500 or more." You can just use a VGA monitor.

[YoungAlCapone]

Huh? The 'non-Physx' video didn't even blow the truck up...how can you compare it? It only did enough damage to pop open the door and blow down the hatch...what comes next is the explosion.

Somewhat manipulative comparison. Okay, scratch that, extremely manipulative comparison.

Exactly what I thought. That wasn't an explosion, that was fucking lame.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

It's funny- even before I saw this note I was considering posting about my increasing distaste for the expense of keeping current with PC hardware. I think you've got a good point here, Mason; it's products like this that will start scaring off all but the most fanatical gamers, should they become prevalent.

Specialized processors - and the never-ending parade of updated video cards, and Vista's rumored 2GB memory requirement, etc. - could very well kill off PC gaming. Consoles will become too sensible an option for casual and mid-range gamers...

Exactly. The PC market is doing a good job of committing seppuku (sp?) You forgot to mention the new trend of pairing up $500 cards in an SLI setup, or even putting four of them together. It's insane. The hardware increases so fast now that keeping up has become a luxury. It was a luxury before, but it seems even worse now. It doesn't help that most of the developers have moved to the console side now.


And we all know that the 360 is the ONLY reason you'd want a nice HDTV. :rolleyes:

By the way, you don't have to spend "$1500 or more." You can just use a VGA monitor.


Well for me it is all I'd want an HDTV for. Maybe DVDs as well, but I'm just fine with those on a normal flat-screen TV. I don't have cable and don't care for TV programming whatsoever.

Using a VGA monitor requires you to sit a few feet from it to play 360 games. Doesn't that defeat the purpose? I want to play console games on my couch.

Rangoth's comparison of the 360 version of GRAW and the (non-existant) PC version was silly. Saying that the graphics on a 360 will be better than the graphics on the PC version was stupid - comparing the pricing was even more so.

[MasterKwan]

At $300, it's a non-starter. At $50-75 I'd be willing to give it a try. That's my "potentially wasted money" threshhold for something like this. I'm not even sure I have an available slot at this point.

You're not forced to upgrade. All of todays games play fine on 2 year old PC's. I used to buy cutting edge video card's and CPU's. Now I don't bother, last years now, cheap, top of the line hardware is just fine by me.

[Talanvor]

Eh, I'm waiting to see what it does for UT2k7 personally before I think about throwing down for one.

[bboy]

So for multiplayer games, what happens when your opponent /teammate does not have a PhysX card? Does he simply not see the eye candy physics you do? Is that all it becomes is eye candy or is there an actual effect on the gameplay?

If there is an actual effect on the gameplay would it then not be possible for PhysX card owners to play against non-PhysX card owners?

Either way, I'm going to wait a good long while before picking up a physics hardware accelator. I believe it will all be migrated to the GPU eventually. We can only hope that Nvidia and ATI follow a common standard and not split the market! ..ugh.

[Steele Johnson]

I'll wait until the chips are incorporated into the video card. Stand-alone versions really don't seem like they're going to last very long.

But I do think the demos are really cool. Makes a huge difference.

[jonat3]

Just to add a tidbit, from the things i understand, gameplay CAN be affected with this. It's not just eye candy. There are various aspects within games that are pretty unrealistic, because of limited physics processsing. ATI and Nvidia have already responded that they could do similar stuff, but from the things i understand, their implementations will be unable to have the same level of interaction as the ppu will be able to give.

The PPU brings us closer to the holo deck. I think this will catch on, but only in the next 5 years. Buying one now would be useless IMO.

[RMan]

ATI and Nvidia have already responded that they could do similar stuff, but from the things i understand, their implementations will be unable to have the same level of interaction as the ppu will be able to give.
The current implementation of Havok FX does only effects, but that's just the first implimentation. I'm sure when their software is in place they'll do all the same things, since from a technical standpoint the implimentations are almost identical. IOW, with software that fully utilized the direct access to the GPU, you could rip the video output from an NVidia/ATI card and call it a PPU (of course, you wouldn't want to :)).

[Mason]

Just to add a tidbit, from the things i understand, gameplay CAN be affected with this. It's not just eye candy. There are various aspects within games that are pretty unrealistic, because of limited physics processsing. ATI and Nvidia have already responded that they could do similar stuff, but from the things i understand, their implementations will be unable to have the same level of interaction as the ppu will be able to give.

The PPU brings us closer to the holo deck. I think this will catch on, but only in the next 5 years. Buying one now would be useless IMO.
People will only dish out extra money if there are whole new classes of games which simply cannot be played without the hardware. Look at every other hardware revolution in PC gaming; new hardware gets launched by previously impossible games, not the same old games with higher FPS or a slight improvement in eye candy (if they explicitly implement this one particular physics API).

Maybe some clever lads will come up with some Aegia-enabled games that make HL2 look like Pong. Maybe they can redefine various genres with fundamentally physics-based gameplay which no CPU or GPU solution can possibly execute. But until such a thing comes along, this card is trash. Watch their previous demos.

[BleedTheFreak]

Wow, that's very interesting!

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

I always thought this was supposed to just help process physics and not actually add anything to the game... If certain things like the big explosion are only available by having this then thats just bs. It still looks ridiculous though. Id prefer my randomly floating objects to have weight...

[Nite_Moogle]

I seem to recall about ten years ago there were a lot of people that said that spending $300 on a graphics card was a stupid idea too. This will become standard in gaming rigs in years to come, we're just seeing the start of support for it. NVIDIA's idea to integrate it on to their graphics boards is a fantastic idea and it will really kickstart support for PPUs in future chipsets.

[jonat3]

I always thought this was supposed to just help process physics and not actually add anything to the game... If certain things like the big explosion are only available by having this then thats just bs. It still looks ridiculous though. Id prefer my randomly floating objects to have weight...

Like i said, this CAN have a major effect on gameplay. I believe Half life 2 is a prime example of why physics can matter.

[Shifteh]

You forgot to mention the new trend of pairing up $500 cards in an SLI setup, or even putting four of them together. It's insane.

No-one is forcing people to buy this stuff. I bought a computer 2 years ago for about 1500. I ran F.E.A.R. at Medium/High settings, and I had a great gaming experience.

I have no idea why people seem to think that because the industry creates new things, we have to buy them.

You can play World of Warcraft on a machine that will barely even run the first Everquest. You can also get a super fantastic computer and have it look prettier and run smoother. But the fact of the matter is, it's lazy functionality of games that is the problem, not the hardware.

On a slightly related tangent, why are things like pretty graphics and super-amazing physics!!!1111 required to be 'immersed' in a game? Does anyone remember the old Kings Quest games, or the Shannara series, or, hell, T.I.E. fighter? I was a lot more immersed in those games than I'll ever be in GTA, or Madden football.

[Mason]

I seem to recall about ten years ago there were a lot of people that said that spending $300 on a graphics card was a stupid idea too. This will become standard in gaming rigs in years to come, we're just seeing the start of support for it. NVIDIA's idea to integrate it on to their graphics boards is a fantastic idea and it will really kickstart support for PPUs in future chipsets.
3D cards let us play Quake. PPUs are more like letting you play DOOM with twice as many sprites, in their current incarnation.

And you're misunderstanding Nvidia. They're working with Havok to do some physics processing on the GPU, not include a separate PPU. If they produce some mature GPGPU middleware for physics, it could entirely sidestep PPUs as a technology.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

I really dont see a need at all for this unless it really lets developers put in new content that is only possible with the specific cards.

[TKO]

So, basically, you can have more immersive physics but it makes it more difficult to see what's going on in the game?
It's funny you should say that, coz it was the same with the first 3d chipsets. I was at a LAN-party, and the only one without a 3d graphics-card. Shogo was the game of choice that night and, seriously, I was kicking butt (which I never do.) I only realised why when someone was complaining about all the smoke. I was like "smoke? what smoke?" :) Ah, the joys of software rendering.

3D cards let us play Quake. PPUs are more like letting you play DOOM with twice as many sprites, in their current incarnation.
What I'm looking forward to is once this tech has matured a little, and maybe made it into the next-gen consoles. When the number of sprite is more like ten or a hundred times. I don't think anyone will be complaining about it then.

Like i said, this CAN have a major effect on gameplay. I believe Half life 2 is a prime example of why physics can matter.
Yeah, that's the kind of future I'm looking for here. HL2 was the first thing in ages that made me go "wow" ..just to think of how this could work when complex objects can be destroyed and crumple/fall/disintegrate realistically; and being able to use that to your tactical advantage.

In HL5 *I'll* be the one knocking that fecking huge smokestack down, screwing up someone's escape-route, and it won't be scripted at all. (Um, except it's Half-Life, so it's probably all still be on rails. But I won't care.) :D

[Magnanimous Gnome]

On a slightly related tangent, why are things like pretty graphics and super-amazing physics!!!1111 required to be 'immersed' in a game? Does anyone remember the old Kings Quest games, or the Shannara series, or, hell, T.I.E. fighter? I was a lot more immersed in those games than I'll ever be in GTA, or Madden football.

Exactly - this was really the crux of my complaint, although I wasn't very good at getting it down in writing. The graphics march in general is killing gaming IMHO. I was totally immersed in the older titles that didn't have fancy graphics. Fancy graphics are not needed for immersion, but now that so many people believe that bigger is better, we have this ridiculous hardware march.

[TrackZero]

Exactly. The PC market is doing a good job of committing seppuku (sp?) You forgot to mention the new trend of pairing up $500 cards in an SLI setup, or even putting four of them together. It's insane. The hardware increases so fast now that keeping up has become a luxury. It was a luxury before, but it seems even worse now. It doesn't help that most of the developers have moved to the console side now.


To be fair, while graphics cards prices have gone up somewhat over the years, other hardware costs have plumetted. RAM and disk space are at an all-time low. Motherboards are a pittance. Only the CPU and Video card are really of any cost these days (and assuming you don't have to buy the uber-card, it's not that expensive at all). You can seriously build a decent gaming rig for like $1000 Canadian (a new monitor would be an extra few hundred, of course). It's not really that expensive when I compare the cost to buying an HDTV, 360 and all the games (not to mention getting HD channels for the TV).

All in all though, it's definitely cheaper to build a gaming machine today than it was 10 years ago. Hell, I remember the 486 we got (and I was excited to play Mechwarrior 2 on it), that ran us $2500 Canadian back in the day. I think people just have some short-term memory about pricing.


Using a VGA monitor requires you to sit a few feet from it to play 360 games. Doesn't that defeat the purpose? I want to play console games on my couch.

You do? I always find the couch bad for my back, and I feel more lazy. It's much nicer for me to sit up in a proper chair. But to each their own. ;)

[BenSkywalker]

3D cards let us play Quake.

You mean Quake3? It was the first in the series that required a 3D accelerator. Reality is that games ran just fine in software in terms of 3D for many years- they just lacked the immersive properties versus running them the way any real gamer was- with proper 3D hardware.

The same is going to happen with PPUs.

Yes, nVidia is going to make it so that you can run physics code on your GPUs and they are focusing on SLI setups. nVidia didn't build their hardware with tens of millions of transistors sitting around idle planning on doing this- you are going to be using the same hardware that is currently handling graphics. Take a SLI setup and sap half the power of it for physics...... $500x2 > $500+$300. Ultimate setup would be quad SLI+ a PPU- which will set you back about what we were paying for 8086 machines back in the day :p

[Worldcrafter]

does anyone else hear a girl moan in the sound?

You mean in the first video? Upon review, yes, I hear it now too. I think it may be a bullet ricocheting with maybe a doppler effect thrown in for good measure. That would be some clever subliminal advertisement, though if it was, it would probably be in the other video.

[MasterKwan]

"The same is going to happen with PPUs."

I wouldn't bet on it. The first 3d cards showed an instant improvement in gameplay. Every generation after has shown visible improvements in the quality of the display. I don't get the feeling from the PPU. Integrated, using the shader engines in a video card, I think it could be a big improvement and another justification for buying a better video card. As an expensive stand alone card that'll never be installed in more than 3% of what's already a smallish PC game market, it won't happen.

Game makers would be better served using the second CPU on a dual core to offload some of this processing. Dual cores are a growing trend that will soon be mainstream.

[Orrey]

300 bucks is chump change. I'll get one just to see the diff on CoV.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

To be fair, while graphics cards prices have gone up somewhat over the years, other hardware costs have plumetted. RAM and disk space are at an all-time low. Motherboards are a pittance. Only the CPU and Video card are really of any cost these days (and assuming you don't have to buy the uber-card, it's not that expensive at all). You can seriously build a decent gaming rig for like $1000 Canadian (a new monitor would be an extra few hundred, of course). It's not really that expensive when I compare the cost to buying an HDTV, 360 and all the games (not to mention getting HD channels for the TV).

All in all though, it's definitely cheaper to build a gaming machine today than it was 10 years ago. Hell, I remember the 486 we got (and I was excited to play Mechwarrior 2 on it), that ran us $2500 Canadian back in the day. I think people just have some short-term memory about pricing.


You make some very good points here. Hardware prices in general have fallen. The PC market though does emphasize upgrading and upgrading often, especially in the graphics card sector. To me it isn't worth the cost of entry anymore - there just aren't enough good games on the platform to warrent the cost to build or buy a new system in order to run these games well. Sure I could run FEAR at 800x600, but there comes a point where graphics are somewhat important - ie when everything is so blurry and jaggy that I can't tell if someone is shooting at me or waving for help. :p That's an over-exaggeration btw.

You have a good point with the 360 as well. The cost of entry to fully enjoy that console is ridiculous, and I've pointed that out in many threads. The only reason I've changed my mind about getting one is because of Oblivion and the other PC ports that will be hitting the system, as well as some good exclusives that I am very interested in. I still think the damn thing and its accessories are overpriced though.



You do? I always find the couch bad for my back, and I feel more lazy. It's much nicer for me to sit up in a proper chair. But to each their own. ;)

I should have been clearer in that comment. I was referring specifically to console games. I don't like sitting in a computer chair at a desk and holding a controller. It's not very comfortable to me, and I feel weird doing it. For PC games that use the keyboard and mouse I love sitting right at my monitor, and the games are designed to be played this way. I just don't think that console games should be played that way - it's not for me anyway.

[KNOTE]

The interesting thing to me is that the framerate still tanks on the Aegia video. Hardly a great selling point...

[KNOTE]

300 bucks is chump change. I'll get one just to see the diff on CoV.
Welcome, viral marketer! Great first post!

[Hellstorm]

You know, I play games for escapism. I just don't give a damn about physics. I play games to have fun, not to judge if a hunk of metal files off a van correctly if I shoot it.

The whole idea of physics based gameplay while sounding intreguing, only conjours up laughable images or Rube-Goldberg like machinations.

[Aries7777]

Exactly - this was really the crux of my complaint, although I wasn't very good at getting it down in writing. The graphics march in general is killing gaming IMHO. I was totally immersed in the older titles that didn't have fancy graphics. Fancy graphics are not needed for immersion, but now that so many people believe that bigger is better, we have this ridiculous hardware march.
But in their time, the old titles DID have fancy graphics. I think graphics are important, but not the MOST important. How can you all seriously keep a straight face when your complaining like this! Your bitching about improvements in technology you idiots.

[balamoor]

That's funny, the 2nd video looks exactly like an explosion on the 360. Also..does anyone else hear a girl moan in the sound?


Yep it's a well known marketing fact that the sound of a woman moaning causes males betwen the ages of 14 and 35 to purchase without question....hell that's how most of us ended up Married. :P

[reimomo]

People will only dish out extra money if there are whole new classes of games which simply cannot be played without the hardware. Look at every other hardware revolution in PC gaming; new hardware gets launched by previously impossible games, not the same old games with higher FPS or a slight improvement in eye candy (if they explicitly implement this one particular physics API).

Maybe some clever lads will come up with some Aegia-enabled games that make HL2 look like Pong. Maybe they can redefine various genres with fundamentally physics-based gameplay which no CPU or GPU solution can possibly execute. But until such a thing comes along, this card is trash. Watch their previous demos.

Think COV with fully destructible terrain. Buildings made of bricks. Dynamically flowing water. That's what this is going to bring to games. First there has to be this 'chase me fuck me' dance between hardware guys, software guys, and consumers to get everyone on board. Hence, GWAR.

[balamoor]

First there has to be this 'chase me fuck me' dance between hardware guys, software guys, and consumers to get everyone on board. Hence, GWAR.


God first bapenguin with the moaning girl now this...what is it with all of the sexual inuendo today? :p

[aversion2k]

Doesnt help that the original version has a pretty gay explosion anyway.

[aversion2k]

Think COV with fully destructible terrain. Buildings made of bricks. Dynamically flowing water. That's what this is going to bring to games. First there has to be this 'chase me fuck me' dance between hardware guys, software guys, and consumers to get everyone on board. Hence, GWAR.

Buildings made of bricks....
That would really push up the development time, I mean, like crazy, Its not just placing the bricks its setting up all the settings, testing it to get it working right. Its crazy. That would also add a bazillion polys to the scene, not too good for textures either.

It would be so nice though :D

GWAR??...ghost warfare advanced recon??

[Magnanimous Gnome]

But in their time, the old titles DID have fancy graphics. I think graphics are important, but not the MOST important. How can you all seriously keep a straight face when your complaining like this! Your bitching about improvements in technology you idiots.

I don't mind the advancements in technology, but the 6 month cycle of graphics cards is just crazy. They don't even advance that much anymore, nothing like before, yet they cost $500 every time. It's crazy. The market keeps getting smaller, so the prices get higher and the releases shorter so that Nvidia and ATI can keep up their profit levels. I believe that it is going to hit a point soon where it isn't sustainable at all.


Doesnt help that the original version has a pretty gay explosion anyway.


Nichols is that you? :p


I'm wet

[absolut taco]

You have a good point with the 360 as well. The cost of entry to fully enjoy that console is ridiculous, and I've pointed that out in many threads. The only reason I've changed my mind about getting one is because of Oblivion and the other PC ports that will be hitting the system, as well as some good exclusives that I am very interested in. I still think the damn thing and its accessories are overpriced though.
You guys are killing me. First the one guy bitches about needing HD channels on his TV when he thinks about the cost of the X360...WTF does that have to do with gaming? And now you complain that you can't enjoy it to the fullest without it costing an arm and a leg! Here is the reality: For $400, similar price to most high end video cards, you get a gaming machine with a wireless controller and a hard drive. Oh, and did I mention it plays games as fast as a $2000 PC? I play it on a standard 32" TV that sucks and has diagonal lines crawling across the picture. It's still fun. One day I will buy a big screen TV and enjoy HD. But I'll be damn if I'm gonna bitch like a little girl because the games look better in HD...

[Citizen Philip]

You guys are killing me. First the one guy bitches about needing HD channels on his TV when he thinks about the cost of the X360...WTF does that have to do with gaming? And now you complain that you can't enjoy it to the fullest without it costing an arm and a leg! Here is the reality: For $400, similar price to most high end video cards, you get a gaming machine with a wireless controller and a hard drive. Oh, and did I mention it plays games as fast as a $2000 PC? I play it on a standard 32" TV that sucks and has diagonal lines crawling across the picture. It's still fun. One day I will buy a big screen TV and enjoy HD. But I'll be damn if I'm gonna bitch like a little girl because the games look better in HD...

They are talking about peformanceophiles, for lack of a better term: people who drop large amounts of money on entertainment: PC gaming, Console gaming, Home Entertainment, Stereo etc. They are saying: a PC gamer and a console gamer who fall into the niche "hardcore" market are probably spending similar amounts of money, but for different things.

Anyways.. I am willing to purchase a physics card when purchasing it is worthwhile. Currently it is not.

[Mason]

Think COV with fully destructible terrain. Buildings made of bricks. Dynamically flowing water. That's what this is going to bring to games. First there has to be this 'chase me fuck me' dance between hardware guys, software guys, and consumers to get everyone on board. Hence, GWAR.
All for the low, low price of $299.95!

It isn't like current systems are incapable of destructible buildings, it's that integrating it with gameplay is always problematic. Physics-based gameplay has a lot of potential, but it is still that, potential. HL2 didn't invent anything, plenty of games use Havok, but they made the physics fun and rewarding, with enough of an illusion of universality to be very impressive and immersive.

Extensive fluid, cloth, and thermodynamic (which I'm not sure PhysX implements, I've never seen it mentioned) simulation are qualitatively different from existing game physics. Not because they're impossible on CPUs (in some form), but rather because no one has really found good gameplay or aesthetic reasons to spend a ton of processing power on them. In that respect, Ageia is a solution looking for a problem. Maybe they'll find that problem, and it'll justify the purchase of the card, but that is yet to happen.

But right now, Cell Factor is the only PhysX-enabled game which seems to get any sort of meaningful boost from the technology, and that's mostly just to enable a ton of simultaneous Newtonian action. Maybe that'll end up being fun and essential (the demo movie is eye-catching but not pants-wetting), but if that's as far as the technology goes it'll be a stillbirth. Notice also how the level in Cell Factor is invulnerable. The card lets them move a lot more junk, but they're still just moving junk.

I'd really like to see three-dimensional wave mechanics properly handled, personally, along with real thermodynamics (at least through solving heat equations, freezing/melting/boiling points, and combustion). Between those two, a smart studio could do a hell of a lot of things that you've never seen before. Copying HL2's gravity gun, only having it throw, like, a thousand objects, that shouldn't be getting anyone excited.

[mister_slim]

It isn't like current systems are incapable of destructible buildings, it's that integrating it with gameplay is always problematic. Physics-based gameplay has a lot of potential, but it is still that, potential. HL2 didn't invent anything, plenty of games use Havok, but they made the physics fun and rewarding, with enough of an illusion of universality to be very impressive and immersive.
I think the real key for Half-Life 2 was using the gravity gun. Integrating the physics interactions cleanly with the FPS control metaphor made all the difference. I hate the beginning of the game where you have to move boxes and stuff by picking them up. It doesn't work cleanly and always took me out of the game (Why is that box floating in front of me? Why is it such a pain to place it where I want?). Using the gun maps neatly to the usual method of interacting with stuff (you know, by shooting it).

[mpsmith]

The explosion is way overdone in the second video- the first is how it should be for a fucking fragmentation grenade. Also, I havent played GRAW but watching the enemies (I think) move around in the open and such made me think it sucks. Is there an explanation?

[TrackZero]

They are talking about peformanceophiles, for lack of a better term: people who drop large amounts of money on entertainment: PC gaming, Console gaming, Home Entertainment, Stereo etc. They are saying: a PC gamer and a console gamer who fall into the niche "hardcore" market are probably spending similar amounts of money, but for different things.


Awesome summary of my point Philip. Thanks for saving me the keystrokes explaining it to him!

[Aries7777]

Think COV with fully destructible terrain. Buildings made of bricks. Dynamically flowing water. That's what this is going to bring to games. First there has to be this 'chase me fuck me' dance between hardware guys, software guys, and consumers to get everyone on board. Hence, GWAR.
GWAR is a band.

I don't mind the advancements in technology, but the 6 month cycle of graphics cards is just crazy. They don't even advance that much anymore, nothing like before, yet they cost $500 every time. It's crazy. The market keeps getting smaller, so the prices get higher and the releases shorter so that Nvidia and ATI can keep up their profit levels. I believe that it is going to hit a point soon where it isn't sustainable at all.
No one is forcing you to buy a high end card, I own a $200 card that can run near everything on high or at the very worst medium. Every year or so I upgrade to a new one that is in the same price range, which last year it was the card to have.

But right now, Cell Factor is the only PhysX-enabled game which seems to get any sort of meaningful boost from the technology, and that's mostly just to enable a ton of simultaneous Newtonian action. Maybe that'll end up being fun and essential (the demo movie is eye-catching but not pants-wetting), but if that's as far as the technology goes it'll be a stillbirth. Notice also how the level in Cell Factor is invulnerable. The card lets them move a lot more junk, but they're still just moving junk.
Amen.