Final Fantasy XII Gets a Perfect Score from Famitsu

[Borys]

The latest issue of Japanese gaming mag - Famitsu (http://www.famitsu.com/) - reviews the latest installment of Square's mega-hit RPG series - Final Fantasy XII. The game received a perfect 40/40 meaning all four reviewers gave it 10 out of 10.

You can see the scan of the review here (http://www.imgup.org/iup173465.jpg).

Some interesting bits:


* It is harder to level up.
* You cant button mash to beat enemies.
* Enemies dont leave money.
And a really funny automatic JPN->ENG translation:

Astonishment to human, and world. As for this rich expression power. As a game the highest level. The
story of the tremendous expansion where it shakes the pleasant.
Final Fantasy XII hits the Japanese stores on 16.03.2006.

Holy crap... Best Final Fantasy game since FF8? Seems so, I can't wait!

Thanks to StrifeSnake13* for the submission as well.

[eeje13]

My pleasants are shaking already.

[TheEpicOfTyler]

FFVIII blew ass. As did X. FFIX, VI and VII FTW!

This looks like it could be decent.

[swiftdraw]

Yet about every other FF board I go to they think this game is going to suck. I guess its going to be one of those games you love or hate.

[KamaItachi]

That's a damn good score. I think only a handful have ever gotten a full 40.

Before anyone chimes in, this does not of course, make it a perfect game.

[TRiLoGY]

I'm really looking forward to this!! :)

[Heretic Machine]

Considering they ranked FFX as the best game ever, let's try to take this with a grain of salt...

In other news, Not-Microsoft-Shills Magazine ranked Halo 3 a perfect 360/360.

[Borys]

Speaking of Final Fantasy... check this movie out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAGl9AvDbCc

[SMES]

There are few games I look back as nostalgically on as FF6, but I am not optimistic about FFXII. I understand that it may be good, but the demo that came with DQVIII didn't feel like FF to me.

On the other hand, I was just sexually aroused by a video review of GRAW 360, so who needs FF anyway! ;)

[SMES]

Speaking of Final Fantasy... check this movie out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAGl9AvDbCc

That was the funniest thing I have ever seen. EVER. I soiled myself.

[Reanimated]

Yet about every other FF board I go to they think this game is going to suck. I guess its going to be one of those games you love or hate.



Keep in mind that the score is coming from Famitsu. They'd score a Final Faggotry game high even if it was constructed of pure dog shit, which I surmise that this game actually is.

[Borys]

Keep in mind that the score is coming from Famitsu. They'd score a Final Faggotry game high even if it was constructed of pure dog shit, which I surmise that this game actually is.

How about giving this game a chance?

You hit a new low with each post you make.

[Vandenh]

Final "1980s gameplay" Fantasy scoring high in Japanese magazine?? What a shock!!!

The worst thing is that the FF groupies are going to be out in full swing again...

How about giving this game a chance?

I am sorry Borys... :) I cannot. Cross-dressing main characters, repetitive gameplay, long movies and worst of all... a convoluted pseudo apocalyptic teen dream angst plot (I wonder what the new "plot" will be). I blame all the brainless fans of anything Japanese for lifting nonsense stuff like this to commercial heights. Japan has MUCH better things/games to offer. If you spend a lot of time in Japan you will see what FF is over there It is the Pokemon of teenagers :)

Guess I am more of an Oblivion, Kotor, Baldur's Gate, Darklands, EoB, Nethack kind of guy :)

Woah.. a bit harsh :) I just get the creeps from FF. At least I liked the 1,2 and 3 versions. After 6 it was all over for me...

[Serapth]

How about giving this game a chance?

You hit a new low with each post you make.

Yes... Borys, i'll remember you said then when Halo 3 reviews start coming in.... Pot... meet kettle. :rolleyes:

[Heretic Machine]

How about giving this game a chance?

Considering this developer's track record for making games full of pretty graphics and no content over the past generation, I don't see why I should. I don't give Lionhead any slack after bungling three of their games.

If I hear things I like, I'll give it a rent. If it's any good, I'll buy it. But I'd say it's very likely that I'll never even play this game.

[Reanimated]

Final "1980s gameplay" Fantasy scoring high in Japanese magazine?? What a shock!!!

The worst thing is that the FF groupies are going to be out in full swing again...



I am sorry Borys... I cannot. :) Cross-dressing main characters, repetitive gameplay, long movies and worst of all... a convulted pseudo apocalyptic teen dream angst plot (I wonder what the new "plot" will be). I blame all the brainless fans of anything Japanese for lifting nonsense stuff like this to commercial heights. Japan has MUCH better things/games to offer. If you spend a lot of time in japan you will see what FF is over there :) It is the Pokemon of teenagers :)

Guess I am more of an Oblivion, Kotor, Baldur's Gate, Darklands, EoB, Nethack kind of guy :)

Woah.. a bit harsh :) I just get the creeps from FF. At least I liked the 1,2 and 3 versions. After 6 it was all over for me...



I have to aree with pretty much everything said here. I'll still be playing Oblivion when this pile of crap has come and gone.

[Sensei-X]

Holy crap... Best Final Fantasy game since FF8? Seems so, I can't wait!


lol, well I guess if Famitsu also set their bar that low I can see it getting a perfect score. You'd have to work pretty hard to make a Final Fantasy as craptacular as FF8, so almost anything would be much better by comparison (no FFX-2, I said almost anything, go back to the bargain bin).

[Borys]

I am sorry Borys... I cannot.

I guess that's... cool.

Personally I finished around 70 PC RPGs and 30 console ones (mostly jRPGs).

I have no problem playing Fallout 2 and Final Fantasy 7 right after it.

I guess I just like good RP games :)

Yes... Borys, i'll remember you said then when Halo 3 reviews start coming in.... Pot... meet kettle.

Haha, yeah, I'll be there. OXM review better watch out!

I have to aree with pretty much everything said here. I'll still be playing Oblivion when this pile of crap has come and gone.

I assume the same applies to Blue Dragoon, hypocrite.

[GunnyMo]

I'm looking forward to it. I enjoyed the demo. I guess I'm not such a FF fanboy that I can take each game as a seperate entity. I don't think there has been one yet that I've "hated". I've enjoyed every one of them.

[JazGalaxy]

while i do agree that Square hasn't put out anything decent in a generation, the people responsible for that game aren't responsible for this one. The people who ARE responsible for this one are the same people who were responsible for the AMAZING FF Tactics. That thign was the closest thing to shakespear we will see in videogames for a long time to come.

To everyone mentioning Halo... what? Halo has nothing ot do with this game at all. There are no similarities at all to be spoken of. Why are you even mentioning it?

[Kelegacy]

I am sorry Borys... I cannot. Cross-dressing main characters, repetitive gameplay, long movies and worst of all... a convoluted pseudo apocalyptic teen dream angst plot (I wonder what the new "plot" will be). I blame all the brainless fans of anything Japanese for lifting nonsense stuff like this to commercial heights. Japan has MUCH better things/games to offer. If you spend a lot of time in Japan you will see what FF is over there It is the Pokemon of teenagers
Keep in mind that the score is coming from Famitsu. They'd score a Final Faggotry game high even if it was constructed of pure dog shit, which I surmise that this game actually is.

Hey, you two: does it hurt to be that ignorant?

[Savok]

To everyone mentioning Halo... what? Halo has nothing ot do with this game at all. There are no similarities at all to be spoken of. Why are you even mentioning it?
Because the general gaming media gets a hard on for anything with a big name behind it.

Every FF Famitsu gush and gush over it, I see this time is no different.

[Vandenh]

Hey, you two: does it hurt to be that ignorant?
I guess you would like to explain to us why FF is such a great game franchise then?

[Heretic Machine]

while i do agree that Square hasn't put out anything decent in a generation, the people responsible for that game aren't responsible for this one. The people who ARE responsible for this one are the same people who were responsible for the AMAZING FF Tactics. That thign was the closest thing to shakespear we will see in videogames for a long time to come.

Ya, and the craptacular FFTA.

[Dr Quincy]

FFVIII FTW! I loved that game. Far more involving than it's predecessor.

[Thin_J]

Japanese Reviewers like a Final Fantasy game?

There's a shocker!

[Reanimated]

I assume the same applies to Blue Dragoon, hypocrite.



1. Blue Dragon is Sakaguchi. Sakaguchi is god.

2. Blue Dragon doesn't have a main character that looks like he wants to penetrate my ass.

3. I have always maintained that Star Ocean 3 is my favorite RPG of this generation, so you can take your anti-jrpg arguments and stuff 'em straight up your ass. I'm anti-shit; not anti-jrpg.

[PathMaster]

FFVIII junction system FTL!! Read about, saw it in action, never played it myself...it was quite possibly the worst system ever IMO. I loved FFVII, played FFIX and enjoyed it, and am STILL playing FFX after all these years(still, as in got it when it came out, but am still struggling to actually play and beat it). I have high hopes in regards to FFXII, but I will in no way hold my breath for it to come out. I will focus my attention to Oblivion and some other RPGs.

[Balthasar]

1. Blue Dragon is Sakaguchi. Sakaguchi is god.
You do realize Sakaguchi was at the helm for FFX, right?

[Valkyrist]

Over half the posts in this thread have instantly written off a game as being a total piece of crap before they even get their hands on it. If you just plain don't linke Jrpgs in general, then fine. No one's forcing you to play it. And for that matter, no one's forcing you to whine about how much you hate them on some stupid thread.

Just ignor it and go back to chatting about Grand Theft Ping Pong. There's a nice US-Made game for all you JP-haters to keep yourselves busy in between Halo releases.

[AntB]

I absolutely hated the demo for FF12 in DQ8. I didn't enjoy it at all.

[Deadend]

I just don't know why, but I am having trouble being hyped over this, or any RPG for the most part. As most RPGs tend to only do cool things in the storyline department, which means the gameplay is just kinda ...there.

Oh, and Famitsu does have a hard-on for Final Fantasy, just like all the american mags seem to have an undying devotion to Halo for some reason.

[fitbabits]

The whole Final Fantasy series is horribly overrated. If it weren't for spotty adolescents and people who are paid to praise, the series would have died a righteous death a LONG time ago.

And Final Fantasy VII is absolute drivel.

:rolleyes:

[Kelegacy]

I guess you would like to explain to us why FF is such a great game franchise then?
I don't have a problem with people disliking FF games, it’s more of a taste thing, I admit, but to stalk into a thread and start describing FF games as cross-dressing, faggot titles is pretty ridiculous. And many of you guys are shitting on a game that hasn’t even been released yet.

I am with Borys in the camp that I enjoy all RPGs, not just console or Japanese ones. The reason I’ve been playing more of the latter lately is because the PC and western ones are so few and far between—or revolve around the Diablo formula that I hate. I’ll play Oblivion and I’ll play FF12 this year and I’ll probably enjoy them both immensely.

And the FF games have always intrigued me. I didn’t enjoy FF8 as much as the others—in fact, it’s my least favorite—but they have something special that always makes me yearn for the next game. The stories are usually pretty well done, the characters are interesting, the world is beautiful, the battle systems are usually slick—minus long summonings…gack!—and most of the games have neat sidequests to enjoy. I’ve been a FF fan since I played VI (III here in the states) and since then I’ve gone back and enjoyed them all. I think the FF series has its faults, but they add enough new with each title to keep them from becoming stagnant. Many people might play for the eye candy, but I, as do most people who really love the franchise, play for much more than that.

[Wyrm]

1. Blue Dragon is Sakaguchi. Sakaguchi is god.

2. Blue Dragon doesn't have a main character that looks like he wants to penetrate my ass.

3. I have always maintained that Star Ocean 3 is my favorite RPG of this generation, so you can take your anti-jrpg arguments and stuff 'em straight up your ass. I'm anti-shit; not anti-jrpg.


Got a huge laugh out of that second one. Made my day already, thanks.

[Borys]

The whole Final Fantasy series is horribly overrated. If it weren't for spotty adolescents and people who are paid to praise, the series would have died a righteous death a LONG time ago.

And Final Fantasy VII is absolute drivel.

:rolleyes:

There was a very funny article on SomethingAwful about those smilies, fitbabits.

The point of the article was that posting something like:

"Your mother has a cancer ;)"

which is a joke (OMG SMILIE!), is beyond retarded.

Now, I did not mean to attack you - your Hidden Smilies O' Sarcasm are legendary - but it was a funny article and I wanted to mention it anyway.

Oh, and BTW FF8 had the best FF mechanics ever. People hate that game beacuse it had Squall and beacuse they did NOT understand how to play it. 99% played it like FF7 and that was the BIGGEST mistake one could make when playing FF8.

Edit: Err... wait, you didn't actually mean it, did you?

[Serapth]

My biggest beef with JRpgs in general and Final Fantasy specifically is the whole teen angst crap. Every game since FFVII has been dripping in whiny, clumsy adoloscence that now that im no longer a teen, I have trouble trying to stomach.

"Oh my god Cloud, there is a comet heading straight at us! We are all going to die!"
-- misc lolita jailbait partner

"Oh, what difference does it make. The world hates us all. You dont love, you cant love me. But wait, you held my hand. She does love me!!! Come, let us save the world my Love!"
-- cloud

Some of the dialog and situations truly make me want to gouge my eyes out.

[holysin]

I'll give FFXII a shot ONLY because it doesn't have those god awful annoying random encounters, and if I'm mistaken, I wont touch the game.

Why japanese like repetitive rpgs, I'll never understand.

[farley2k]

I absolutely hated the demo for FF12 in DQ8. I didn't enjoy it at all.


That I can agree with. I was very much underwhelmed by the demo. There didn't seem to be much going for the new combat style except that it was new.

[fitbabits]

There was a very funny article on SomethingAwful about those smilies, fitbabits.

The point of the article was that posting something like:

"Your mother has a cancer ;)"

which is a joke (OMG SMILIE!), is beyond retarded.

Now, I did not mean to attack you - your Hidden Smilies O' Sarcasm are legendary - but it was a funny article and I wanted to mention it anyway.

Oh, and BTW FF8 had the best FF mechanics ever. People hate that game beacuse it had Squall and beacuse they did NOT understand how to play it. 99% played it like FF7 and that was the BIGGEST mistake one could make when playing FF8.

Edit: Err... wait, you didn't actually mean it, did you?
Of course I didn't mean it! :rolleyes:

I'm not fan of the FF games at all, but to each their own.

[51|RandoM]

I didn't like most of the FF games, but I very much liked FF9. Most of the stuff I see posted in this thread that people don't like about FF games, it didn't have anyways. Maybe the haters should check it out, before assuming all FF games are the same stuff.

[bean19]

The whole Final Fantasy series is horribly overrated. If it weren't for spotty adolescents and people who are paid to praise, the series would have died a righteous death a LONG time ago.

And Final Fantasy VII is absolute drivel.

:rolleyes:

I disagree.

The production values are always stellar for these games, and Final Fantasy VII popularized RPGs in the United States.

[51|RandoM]

Considering they ranked FFX as the best game ever, let's try to take this with a grain of salt...

In other news, Not-Microsoft-Shills Magazine ranked Halo 3 a perfect 360/360.

Who are you saying Famitsu shills for? If you look at what they do, and the games they've given perfect 40s to, I'd be interested in hearing your deduction.

You're aware they gave a perfect 40 to a dreamcast game? They've only given perfect scores to SIX games. You are aware that it is considered the most respected video game news magazine in Japan? You are aware there are 5 versions of the magazine, two general and three platform exclusive(the big 3, obviously).

Considering their track record, and their target audience, you don't really have a foot to stand on, perhaps because it is in your mouth.

[Rirath]

I've yet to really give FFXII a chance, I'm nowhere near as hyped about it as I was FFX-2... but so much in this thread makes me shake my head. I don't see how people can call FF cookie cutter games when even among FANS the debate rages about which ones are great, and which ones suck. I'll continue loving Final Fantasy, and I'm sure Square will continue making them -- so I'm content with that.

For those keeping score, my personal opinions:

(FF - FFVI are before my console RPG days, and thus I can not fairly score.)
FFVII = The best.
FFVIII = Not as good, but beautiful.
FFVIX = Even more not as good, but fun.
FFX = Revival of the series, great.
FFX-2 = Great fun, music, better story than FFX. Underrated.

FFT = Good in theory but never could make it click.
FFTA = Perfect rendition fixing everything wrong with FFT.

[JediSanf]

(FF - FFVI are before my console RPG days, and thus I can not fairly score.)
FFVII = The best.
FFVIII = Not as good
FFVIX = Even more not as good.
FFX = Revival of the series, great.
FFX-2 = Great fun, music, better story than FFX. Underrated.

FFT = Good in theory but never could make it click.
FFTA = Perfect rendition fixing everything wrong with FFT.

I would change two things...

FFVI = End all, be all, it and Fallout changed what I thought a video game could be.

FFT = I STILL play this game, it's that good. It's actually the first game I sat down and did the math for (Time Mage awesomeness).

[Reanimated]

You do realize Sakaguchi was at the helm for FFX, right?



Ninja please, Hironobu barely had anything to do with the actual creative side of producing FF games after FFVII. Takayoshi Nakazato and Motomu Toriyama were responsible for DIRECTING FFX and FFX-2. Sakaguchi barely had anything to do with them. Blaming him for those games is akin to blaming Bill Gates for the utter stupidity of Halo 2.

[Heretic Machine]

You're aware they gave a perfect 40 to a dreamcast game? They've only given perfect scores to SIX games. You are aware that it is considered the most respected video game news magazine in Japan? You are aware there are 5 versions of the magazine, two general and three platform exclusive(the big 3, obviously).

Yes, they are the EGM of the East. I don't care.

[fushi]

Ya, and the craptacular FFTA.
No. Different director, different script writer, etc.

This is a good thread by the way.

[Jacob Singer]

The whole Final Fantasy series is horribly overrated.

Truer words were never spoken.

[fushi]

Who are you saying Famitsu shills for? If you look at what they do, and the games they've given perfect 40s to, I'd be interested in hearing your deduction.

You're aware they gave a perfect 40 to a dreamcast game? They've only given perfect scores to SIX games. You are aware that it is considered the most respected video game news magazine in Japan? You are aware there are 5 versions of the magazine, two general and three platform exclusive(the big 3, obviously).

Considering their track record, and their target audience, you don't really have a foot to stand on, perhaps because it is in your mouth.
Do you realize that this is the magazine where editors have to go and apologise in front of the publishers if they give an anticipated game a low score? Famitsu is shit, please live with it. They are NOT respected for their opinions, but for their exclusives. A world of difference.

That said, a perfect 40 does mean something because it is a very rare score.

[EvilBob46]

I have to aree with pretty much everything said here. I'll still be playing Oblivion when this pile of crap has come and gone.

How would you know anything about this game if you haven't even played it?

[EvilBob46]

while i do agree that Square hasn't put out anything decent in a generation

Dragon Quest VIII and Kingdom Hearts 2 are excellent games.

[Heretic Machine]

Kingdom Hearts 2 are excellent games.

Funny, the first Kingdom Hearts was a snore fest with pretty graphics and music.

[HumpYourWay]

>> Holy crap... Best Final Fantasy game since FF8? Seems so, I can't wait!

since FF8? Hey evil avatar! Where do you recruit those editors who aint got a clue and usually come here for sony bashing anyway... jesus.

[EternalGamer]

I don't have a problem with people disliking FF games, it’s more of a taste thing, I admit, but to stalk into a thread and start describing FF games as cross-dressing, faggot titles is pretty ridiculous. And many of you guys are shitting on a game that hasn’t even been released yet.

What you seem to be missing, Kel, is that the point of their posts are not to actually discuss the merits of Final Fantasy. The point is to draw attention to themselves by making really bombastic statements so someone will respond to them.

I love how there is no subtly to the opinions at all. That's how little kids act. Either something is the best thing that ever happened to them, or it makes for the worst day of their lives. If Final Fantasy is not awesome than it is automatically "shit" and "the worst games ever made." I have not been all that large of a fan of many of the Final Fantasy games, and I think the writing and/or translations need serious work. But to call them "shit" is pretty ridiculious.

Their combat systems are always well balanced and well thought out and all of them try something different in terms of the way the leveling up systems. The graphics are universallly some of the best for their respective systems as are the soundtracks. And the games are huge filled with great uniquely crafted environments and locations and filled with tons of little secrets for the player to discover. Yes the storylines in most are bad. But that is true of 90% of the games you play (yes, American RPGS included--they just replace incoherance and melodrama with cliches and canned language). The fact that the Final Fantasy games have faulty storylines doesn't alone make them the worst games ever made, far from it. Saying they are the worst games ever just makes you look like the 4 year old who cries that it is the worst day of his life because his mom told him they weren't going to go to McDonalds until tomorrow.

Dan

[Vandenh]

How would you know anything about this game if you haven't even played it?
That is the point.. we have played it.. about 100 times before.

since FF8? Hey evil avatar! Where do you recruit those editors who aint got a clue and usually come here for sony bashing anyway... jesus.

Woah dude. Borys is leader of the anti-xbox squad!!! Anyway... he was referring to Japanese top 100 where FF8 ended at the top. Or am I wrong?

[Savok]

FF8 had two redeeming qualities.

Triple Triad (with the Random rule bred out) and how awesome the Ragnarok looked.

Beyond that it makes you want to eat a gun, it helped truly pioneer the fact you had to buy a strategy guide for a game to get anywhere.

[Kelegacy]

That is the point.. we have played it.. about 100 times before.


Funny, because the game mechanics in this title are huge deviations from past games in the franchise. FF is reinventing itself and people still aren't happy...and this is before they've even played it.

But feel free to preemptive flame. People always look smart when they do that.

[Paranoia]

Next up, Nintendo DS & its WiFi capabilities. Perfect target for child molester since most Nintendo products are meant for kids.

[Savok]

http://c-uncut.com/media/ff8-ragnarok.jpg

Screen licking goodness.

[Vandenh]

Funny, because the game mechanics in this title are huge deviations from past games in the franchise

Game mechanics? Who cares about those??? I was not referring to "play mechanics" but the totally absurd plot, repetitive gameplay and general feel of most of the FF games.

Next up, Nintendo DS & its WiFi capabilities. Perfect target for child molester since most Nintendo products are meant for kids.
:) hence the whole friend-code idea of Nintendo. Makes sense now doesn't it ;)

[Balthasar]

Ninja please, Hironobu barely had anything to do with the actual creative side of producing FF games after FFVII.
He wasn't hugely involved in FFVII, either.

Blaming him for those games is akin to blaming Bill Gates for the utter stupidity of Halo 2.
Funny, I don't recall blaming him for FFX, which I thought was pretty good.

[gawaintheblind]

Holy crap... Best Final Fantasy game since FF8? Seems so, I can't wait!



....Best what since what?

I quit playing final fantasies after 6 (3 here). Seven was something, but whatever it was, it wasn't final fantasy. eight was complete ass. 9 was decent, if you like cartoons, ten was pretty good till you're required to play blitz ball, which is about where I shut the game off and never looked at it again. I have yet to play 10b, 10c, 10c2, or whatever the hell else there was.

[EternalGamer]

:) hence the whole friend-code idea of Nintendo. Makes sense now doesn't it ;)

I just wish Nintendo would have a way to get around it for adults, like some type of age verification software that requires credit card input or something.

Dan

[Balthasar]

Game mechanics? Who cares about those??? I was not referring to "play mechanics" but the totally absurd plot, repetitive gameplay and general feel of most of the FF games.
How is FF7's plot more "absurd" than an average D&D inspired title?

[Wedge]

This page (http://unlimitedgamer.net/coverage/ff12/ff12_dev.php) shows why I am looking forward to this game. Alot of those people have worked on games that I enjoyed alot, like Vagrant Story, FFTactics and so on.

It might be the most un-final fantasy-esque final fantasy yet, but after X and X-2 that is a good thing IMHO.

[JediSanf]

This page (http://unlimitedgamer.net/coverage/ff12/ff12_dev.php) shows why I am looking forward to this game. Alot of those people have worked on games that I enjoyed alot, like Vagrant Story, FFTactics and so on.

It might be the most un-final fantasy-esque final fantasy yet, but after X and X-2 that is a good thing IMHO.

And that seems to be a pattern for Square. They test the waters with something new (Parasite Eve, Vagrant Story) and then take the lessons learned and apply them to the flagship series.

Personally, I loved Vagrant Story and am... cautiously optimistic about XII.

[holysin]

since FF8? Hey evil avatar! Where do you recruit those editors who aint got a clue and usually come here for sony bashing anyway... jesus.


Woah dude. Borys is leader of the anti-xbox squad!!!


That's supposed to mean something? Thats changing piss for shit, being anti-sony or anti-microsoft is just stupid as hell.
Don't like it? don't buy it, end of story.

[Mason]

I didn't care for the demo of ff12 at all. They've undoubtedly come a long way since then, but I'll still be reading plenty of American reviews before making up my mind on the title.

KOTOR- or .HACK-esque combat seems like about the worst direction to go. FFX was mostly redeemed by its solid turn-based system, but the demo didn't show anything of comparable depth. Trying to control 3 characters in real-time, even with pauses for commands, has enough built-in inaccuracy that the difficulty and tactical complexity must necessarily be fairly low.

[Worldcrafter]

When I was in middle school, I played my first RPG, Final Fantasy 7, and loved it. That game has a special place in my memory, as I'm sure it does for many. After that, I made up for lost time by playing as many JRPGs I could find, both old and new. I used to get really excited for a FF release, and played through FF8 really enjoying it.

But as each new FF game came out, the less interested I became, until I played through FFX, and really didn't enjoy the experience (they took away the feeling of exploration, which is one of my favorite things about an RPG). Since then, I've become less interested in the traditional JRPG, and more interested in RPGs that have a more mature feel to them. I think as I move farther away from my angsty teenage years, I like the angsty lead characters and plot found in many JRPGs less and less. And since games like FF follow the characters so closely, it made many of these games boring for me.

That said, it doesn't mean all JRPGs annoy me. Sure, "Tales of Symphonia"'s plot and characters made me want to break something, but Square's "Vagrant Story", "Parasite Eve" and "Xenogears" are all fantastic games, even today.

So I think that's why I'm not excited about FFXII. When I hear FF, I think angsty characters, cliched plot, stilted dialog, and repetative combat. I'm willing to give FFXII a try, but I've stopped trusting reviews of FF games from most sources, since they always seem to get rave reviews, even if I don't like the game. And that's totally a personal preference thing, it just seems to me that the people reviewing these games are looking for a different RPG experience than I am.

Until then, I'm looking forward to robbing everyone blind in Oblivion.

[Heretic Machine]

and this is before they've even played it.

You do realize that there has been a demo for this game out since last year, don't you? People have played it, and you know what? They didn't like it. Like I said, if I hear things I like, I'll rent it to give it a try. But this series has soured me through every installment since seven. The rest of their products haven't done much for me either. Vagrant Story, Kingdom Hearts, FFTA... these are some of the worst games I've owned, except Kingdom Hearts... which was only mediocre. I know there is some kind of cult following for Vagrant Story, but I seriously don't get it.

[Stormwatcher]

How is FF7's plot more "absurd" than an average D&D inspired title?

Dude, go play the Baldur's Gate series or Planescape:Torment before saying stupid things like this. Planescape:Torment has more solid writting than all FFs thrown together. And I like FF games.
There is also non D&D CRPGs that have awesome plots: Fallout, for instance. And more than one FPS/RPG mongrel, like System Shock and Deus Ex.

Even though I care enough about FF to read the text, it is all very, very weak and convoluted.

[hotdrop]

the best final fantasy game since the last bad final fantasy game :) go figure

[Reanimated]

He wasn't hugely involved in FFVII, either.


Funny, I don't recall blaming him for FFX, which I thought was pretty good.



So what was the point of your attempt to tie him to FFX? :rolleyes:

[Lunar Blue]

Oh, and BTW FF8 had the best FF mechanics ever. People hate that game beacuse it had Squall and because they did NOT understand how to play it. 99% played it like FF7 and that was the BIGGEST mistake one could make when playing FF8.

Damn right, i made that mistake. I didn't understand the tutorials first time around (and sure as hell didn't notice you could also access them from the menu) so i played it to the beginning of 3rd cd using only gf's and magic in the battle. I just stopped playing and then after like a month i started over, this time around reading the tutorials with thought. And i loved it! Junction FTW!

Beyond that it makes you want to eat a gun, it helped truly pioneer the fact you had to buy a strategy guide for a game to get anywhere.

Huh? I was 12 when i played this game and it's not even in my native language, yet i had no problems apart from having my head up my ass :)

[HardScores]

Final "1980s gameplay" Fantasy scoring high in Japanese magazine?? What a shock!!!

The worst thing is that the FF groupies are going to be out in full swing again...



I am sorry Borys... :) I cannot. Cross-dressing main characters, repetitive gameplay, long movies and worst of all... a convoluted pseudo apocalyptic teen dream angst plot (I wonder what the new "plot" will be). I blame all the brainless fans of anything Japanese for lifting nonsense stuff like this to commercial heights. Japan has MUCH better things/games to offer. If you spend a lot of time in Japan you will see what FF is over there It is the Pokemon of teenagers :)

Guess I am more of an Oblivion, Kotor, Baldur's Gate, Darklands, EoB, Nethack kind of guy :)

Woah.. a bit harsh :) I just get the creeps from FF. At least I liked the 1,2 and 3 versions. After 6 it was all over for me...

Oh, it's so very fashionable to like FF until 7 came out, because you're so elitist and any game someone might actually know about is bad and popular. Oh, but Baldur's Gate, one of your favorite games: it features a belt of gender-changing. Well... I guess cross-dressing turns you off, but any girl that used to be a guy is quite alright. You might actually want to look at Final Fantasy Tactics - considered on of the best games in series even though it's not an RPG. It's easily my favorite FF game in the entire series. The last FF tried to be more American were FF X-2 and Final Fantasy Mystic Quest. So I won't argue about more "Japanese" Final Fantasy's.

[jwbxx]

I thought ff8 had nothing going for it at all.

[Balthasar]

So what was the point of your attempt to tie him to FFX? :rolleyes:
You were lambasting the FF series while praising him, as if his touch makes all RPGs great. My point was that he was still involved with FF games through X, so whatever negative things you may think of any of the games up until then are not mutually exclusive from his influence. If you're going to try to say 7 was the last great FF game, and everything afterwards sucked, I'm going to say other people were more responsible for FF7's success than him. If I recall correctly, I believe FF5 was the last FF he really had his "stamp" on.

Thus, my entire point is that you are overrating what Blue Dragon can be by basing it on Sakaguchi's involvement alone. Good or bad.

[Balthasar]

The last FF tried to be more American were FF X-2 and Final Fantasy Mystic Quest. So I won't argue about more "Japanese" Final Fantasy's.
How was FF X-2 more American? If anything, it was more influenced by Japanese culture than any FF game before it.

[StrifeSnake13*]

Wow I find it interesting how many whiny FF bashers there are in this thread. You guys talk about FF characters being whiny, you guys are the ones crying about a game that you have never played, the demo doesn't count, it was like 20min long and only allowed you to sample the battle system and nothing else. FFXII has been in development for a long time (4 years I think) so maybe it really is a good fucking game, and until you personally play threw it you should not say a damm thing bad about it.

[Kelegacy]

You do realize that there has been a demo for this game out since last year, don't you? People have played it, and you know what? They didn't like it. Like I said, if I hear things I like, I'll rent it to give it a try. But this series has soured me through every installment since seven. The rest of their products haven't done much for me either. Vagrant Story, Kingdom Hearts, FFTA... these are some of the worst games I've owned, except Kingdom Hearts... which was only mediocre. I know there is some kind of cult following for Vagrant Story, but I seriously don't get it.
Yes I do realize this... I own Dragon Quest VIII. Still, if you haven't noticed, the people that are really shitting on the game aren't the ones that have played the demo. The ones that have have mentioned things they didn't like, but nary a one has lambasted the title that they've only sampled. The rest of you harbour a prejudice that is all too common on these boards.

[Spigot]

Wait... does this mean Squeenix has actually finished the game?

*faint*

I'm more impressed by that fact than anything else. I was starting to think the game wouldn't be out until the PS4 hit the shelves.

[Spigot]

How dare Perigon insult Vagrant Story?!

*dons his Vagrant Story cultist robe and gets to work modifying his sacrificial knife so that it will be +12 vs. Perigons*

[HardScores]

How was FF X-2 more American? If anything, it was more influenced by Japanese culture than any FF game before it.

I didn't realize Charlie's Angels was Japanese. It's also "RPG-Lite" for us stupid Americans that don't know how to build our characters. Some of the stuff is heavier than others, like garment rings and the AP system, but it's really straight forward - you don't even ahve to worry about switching party members to level them up... perhaps it's just my opinion.

[Roc Ingersol]

Final Fantasy lost me after FFIII (US).

[Mason]

Oh, it's so very fashionable to like FF until 7 came out
Those people don't actually like the games, they like who they were back when they first played the games.

That said, FF6 deserves recognition and emulation, yet it seems invisible to Square and Japanese gamers. For some reason it's immensely popular over here, but it was beaten out by 7 other FF games on that Famitsu poll of Japanese gamers. It was only ahead of 11, 1, and 2. WTF?

FF6 was unique, because it was a true ensemble game, with no particular main character. This gave them a lot more room to develop everyone and their shifting relations, as well as explore that nebulous RPG construct, the "party". Everyone's back-story was interesting and well-explored. The villain wasn't an undefined ancient evil, but rather human solipsistic nihilism, writ large.

I'm not making a comparative judgment here (this thread shows just how worthless those are), but rather making the case that FF6 did some things uniquely well, and many American fans would really like to see more of those dynamics explored in future titles, even though it seems like Square and their native audience have far less appreciation for the epic nature of the game.

[benig]

Holy crap... Best Final Fantasy game since FF8? Seems so, I can't wait!

Have you lost your god damn mind? RUN!

[Mozgus]

All I can say is that this is the first final fantasy I've had an interest in since FF8. I mean, they finally fixed the gameplay, judging from what I experienced on the demo. But FF8's demo was great, and then the actual game turned out to be shit.

[Returner]

For me JRPGs have been going down hill for a long time. Hopefuly this will be good.

[Balthasar]

I didn't realize Charlie's Angels was Japanese.
Most of the characters in FF aren't Japanese either. There's always been a Western influence in FF games. The dress spheres/pseudo Sailor Moon transformations/figure-posing/J-pop outweigh the Charlie's Angels refernces by far.

[Serapth]

For me JRPGs have been going down hill for a long time. Hopefuly this will be good.

For me they have stayed exactly the same, while I have grown up and out of them. With the exception of battle systems, any of these games could be name swapped with another game and be pretty much identical.

I went through something similar with western RPG games when every game and its dog was a Diablo clone.

[Reanimated]

You were lambasting the FF series while praising him, as if his touch makes all RPGs great. My point was that he was still involved with FF games through X, so whatever negative things you may think of any of the games up until then are not mutually exclusive from his influence. If you're going to try to say 7 was the last great FF game, and everything afterwards sucked, I'm going to say other people were more responsible for FF7's success than him. If I recall correctly, I believe FF5 was the last FF he really had his "stamp" on.

Thus, my entire point is that you are overrating what Blue Dragon can be by basing it on Sakaguchi's involvement alone. Good or bad.



I'm saying the last great FF games were on the SNES. I'm not overrating anyone. If anything, I'm underrating him. Not to mention the rest of the A-List talent he's got working with him on his 360 projects.

[Phades]

Dude, go play the Baldur's Gate series or Planescape:Torment before saying stupid things like this. Planescape:Torment has more solid writting than all FFs thrown together. And I like FF games.
There is also non D&D CRPGs that have awesome plots: Fallout, for instance. And more than one FPS/RPG mongrel, like System Shock and Deus Ex.


You just listed some of my favorite RPG's of all time. Planescape demands a sequel or just a new game in that world. Best RPG story ever imo.

My problem with most JRPG games is that the story is either:
a. Been done a million times with the same characters (Grandia 3, Lunar)
b. Too "deep" for its own good (Xenosaga)
c. Just plain weird (FFX)

There has been a couple series I've really enjoyed though like Shadow Hearts (although it's super strange) and a couple of the FF games (FF3, FFVII, FFIX, FFT=Ultimate). I'm hopeful for the story in FFXII because the demo made it look like it could be cool. I really hate the new combat system though.

[Mason]

Still, if you haven't noticed, the people that are really shitting on the game aren't the ones that have played the demo.

My take (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=218247&postcount=69).

Perhaps that wasn't "shitting on it", but I worded my cautious displeasure about as strongly as I could. That said, I think we should all probably just wait two weeks, hopefully some translated or imported reviews will dispel the controversy.

[Balthasar]

That said, FF6 deserves recognition and emulation, yet it seems invisible to Square and Japanese gamers.
Coincidentally, I've had the strangest urge to pick up my PS copy of FF6 and play it through again. I have no idea why, really.

[HardScores]

We don't need to be talking about this, anyway - Shadow Hearts has arrived.

[bean19]

I'm actually startled by all this variance in opinion between game titles. . . not by the variance in opinion between people who like FF games and those who do not. That's expected; but from the people who thin FF 7 or 6 or 10 were awesome but that 8 and 11, and 9 sucked.

Certainly there is a comparison to be made between these games, and all of them have things that are different about them, but RPGs in general have been one of the least innovated genres throughout the history of videogames. Essentially, you are doing the same things over and over, and the stories have become rife with cliches.

I'm a Final Fantasy fan. . . I like RPGs and the FF games are RPGs with immense production value. Sure, they are derivative and have cliches. . . but so do other RPGs. At least the FF series grows in it's game mechanics between iterations and the story and world dramatically changes.

Plus, you know, huge production values.

Btw, I'm coming to realize that I'm just a very small adult human. 5'9" and 125 lbs. I totally have more in common with Cloud and Squall than I have with the Schwartzenager-esque commandos that populate most games that originate in the U.S. so the "effeminate" (hate when they are described that way, btw) heroes in these games appeal to me.

Not all of us are strapping hulks of muscle or Whopper-swilling mammoths.

[Mason]

Btw, I'm coming to realize that I'm just a very small adult human. 5'9" and 125 lbs.
Hmm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height). 5'9" is the exact average male American height. Fear not.

[Balthasar]

I'm saying the last great FF games were on the SNES.
Why am I not surprised that you would only kill the FF games on Sony systems?

I'm not overrating anyone. If anything, I'm underrating him.
Yeah?

1. Blue Dragon is Sakaguchi. Sakaguchi is god.
Not really sure how you rate someone higher than that.

Not to mention the rest of the A-List talent he's got working with him on his 360 projects.
Like?

[outontheporch]

that was a good video. And I'm late to class because of it

[abso]

Wow I find it interesting how many whiny FF bashers there are in this thread. You guys talk about FF characters being whiny, you guys are the ones crying about a game that you have never played, the demo doesn't count, it was like 20min long and only allowed you to sample the battle system and nothing else. FFXII has been in development for a long time (4 years I think) so maybe it really is a good fucking game, and until you personally play threw it you should not say a damm thing bad about it.

Quoted because it is quite true.

I wish people would stop lumping all rpg's into one category. In fact, I wish they would STOP calling them rpg's. FF,DQ, etc, are NOT rpgs. I'm not sure what I would really categorize them as other than interactive epic (sometimes) linear stories. Elder Scrolls, Baldur's Gate, Fallout are better categorized as rpg's since your own actions directly affect the outcome of events. They are open worlds where actions matter.

I don't play jRPGs because I am expecting a novel, open, interactive experience, but for the compelling, albeit often overused, stories. The characters might be stereotypical, the plot predictable (everyone at this point knows the bad guy in the beginning isn't always the bad guy at the end), and the environments rehashed. BUT, as long as they fit the story being told, it is fine. Most fantasy and sci fi literature is a repetition of a few core works, but few people seem to complain about that in a FF thread. The jRPG genre is about telling an epic tale of the little people struggling to accomplish big things. Beyond that, the games are all essentially the same dungeon/environment level up crawl.

So if the story isn't for you, don't play the game. Voice your opinion about the game as you are doing, but stop bashing the people that do enjoy them. Most of us know what we are getting and just want to be a part of what we consider a high production value story.

[Serapth]

Hmm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height). 5'9" is the exact average male American height. Fear not.

Maybe im just old fashioned but the notion of quoting Wiki's for facts just scares the hell out of me.

I love the idea of a free encyclopedia written and editted by my fellow man, except the fact for the most part, my fellow man is an idiot! :)

[Heretic Machine]

I didn't realize Charlie's Angels was Japanese. It's also "RPG-Lite" for us stupid Americans that don't know how to build our characters. Some of the stuff is heavier than others, like garment rings and the AP system, but it's really straight forward - you don't even ahve to worry about switching party members to level them up... perhaps it's just my opinion.

You know what? You're why I stopped watching anime, and am just now able to go back to watching even the good stuff. Fucktards like you who feel the need to distance theirselves from some "stupid American" stereotype and latch on to Japan because of what they've almost completly imagined from minor exposure to Japanese POP-CULTURE. Want to know a secret? You don't know dick about Japan or Japanese culture. You're just one of a million Wapanese assholes who need to grow up.

[Zurik]

I'm the only person that enjoyed the new battle system, so I'll be playing this AND Oblivion. That's right! You don't have to be stuck on one game, you have choice!

[Balthasar]

Maybe im just old fashioned but the notion of quoting Wiki's for facts just scares the hell out of me.

I love the idea of a free encyclopedia written and editted by my fellow man, except the fact for the most part, my fellow man is an idiot! :)
Misconceptions abound! Try going into an article about, say, Napoleon Bonaparte, and try changing his name in any part of the article to "Napoleon Dynamite." See what happens. It's not perfect, mind you, but for a free encyclopedia, it's pretty damn good.

[Serapth]

I'm the only person that enjoyed the new battle system, so I'll be playing this AND Oblivion. That's right! You don't have to be stuck on one game, you have choice!

See, I dont... it one of those little things I noticed over time. If I ever buy two RPGs at the same time, I NEVER finish either... and frankly I dont enjoy it as much. I was late to the PS2 game, so when I bought mine I picked up Xenosaga, Kings Field and Summoner and frankly from having too many games, I probrably didnt get more then 5 hours into any of them. Its sorta like reading two novels at the same time... you never seem to grow an attachment for the characters, world, etc...

Maybe im just wierd this way, but when it comes to RPGs i pretty much have to dedicate myself to them. Actually, come to think of it, the last Console RPG I played ( KOTOR2 ), I didnt play *ANY* other games until it was done.

[Reanimated]

It's not my fault all of the FF games on sony systems sucked shit. FFVII was the best of the lot, and that's not saying much.

[bardockkun]

The fact that everyone is bitching about having played at least 6 or so Final Fantasy games and can go on to complain about FF12 (when im sure they complained about "another" FF game coming out even around the FFIX era) just shows me that through all the bitching and whinning of SquareEnix can't make a good game, everyone will still end up buying it or playing it in someway or form. So honestly, who gives a hoot if it's overrated, if it's a quality RPG then it's a quality RPG no matter how overrated.

Plus i'm sure people will change their minds after an "American Publication" gives it a gold or gamer's choice, or whatever the hell they want to call a good score. So through all that bitching, WE WILL NEVER LEARN hence why there will probably be an FF21 and beyond.

[Borys]

To all the clueless people criticising me for my "BEST SINCE FF8!" comment:

I finished (from start to end, duh) all FF games except FF11 Yes, that means I finished the abortion known as FFX-2. (and all Dragon Quests except 8 BTW). If you played only few FF (like 6, 7, 8, 9 and X) - please keep your opinion to yourself.

Thus I know what I am talking about. FF8 was the last best in the series (*not* the best ever).

I hated some parts of it (Rhinoa, Irvine, GFs), loved the others (Triple Triad, Diablos Enc-None, last castle, Zell, Seifer) but summa summarum this was one of the best FF ever, right up there with FF4 & FF6 and of course better than Fanboi Service VII.

All signs point to FF12 being even better than FF8, that's why I am so excited.

[Watership]

>> Holy crap... Best Final Fantasy game since FF8? Seems so, I can't wait!

since FF8? Hey evil avatar! Where do you recruit those editors who aint got a clue and usually come here for sony bashing anyway... jesus.

OMG your username's length distorts the order and flow of the web forum.

That's all.

[Crabby]

Big fucking surprise here, right? I expect to see another poll done in three years that puts FFXII as the best game evah .

[Kelegacy]

Thanks Borys, for creating this thread. It reminds me that I need to start plugging names into my ignore list so that Evil Avatar becomes a much more enjoyable place for me.

[ElPresidente]

Am I the only person who feels they have developed the ability to predict what games will get Famitsu's perfect score without having even played the game? :D

I wish they would STOP calling them rpg's. FF,DQ, etc, are NOT rpgs.

You and me both pal. :P

*note: That does not mean I don't like these stats based adventure titles, I just don't consider them RPGs for one second.

[easi]

It seems FF/JRPGs are the hot button topic around here right now. It's sad that some people equate MS and Sony as a re-enactment of WW2 and slate the genre with close-minded prejudice. I personally like the FF series but it's not going to connect with me the same way it will with a Japanese kid, even though I'm an animu fag. It's the same for all games but because they're so story- & character-based it's much more of an issue.

Then again, seeing as this is EvAv I'll just say that Sony bought the score.

[outontheporch]

Holy crap, what a surprise, the EvilAvatar folks comepletly discredit the magazine because it's japanese, and automatically assume that a new final fantasy game will totally suck.

[Serapth]

You know... you can dislike Japanese games and think that the 360 does poorly there because the Japanese are protectionist, without being prejudicial or racist.

*Sigh* people seem to have forgotten this fact. You know, sometimes sterotypes are true.

[Borys]

Thanks Borys, for creating this thread. It reminds me that I need to start plugging names into my ignore list so that Evil Avatar becomes a much more enjoyable place for me.

No prob.

As for the ignore list - it's the same damn people every time. Simply hating *anything* associated with the Sony brand.

Worhtless posters, I'll laugh so hard when FF12 outsells Oblivion (which I'm also buying) 4:1.

[Alexious]

Yes, that means I finished the abortion known as FFX-2...

Thus I know what I am talking about. FF8 was the last best in the series (*not* the best ever)...
Okay, a couple of things:

- First of all, I feel SORRY for you that you even bothered to play FFX-2 for more than a few hours. Why would you do that to yourself? Seriously?

- Secondly, your "I've finished all the FF games so listen to me" argument doesn't really work. It's still all a personal opinion. Nobody in this thread is "correct." We're all just wasting time at work BSing about games. :D

Finally, I would just like to say that Ultima > Final Fantasy. That is all.

[Balthasar]

Am I the only person who feels they have developed the ability to predict what games will get Famitsu's perfect score without having even played the game? :D
Considering how few the titles are that have ever gotten a perfect score, I am fairly certain you have no idea what you are talking about.

*note: That does not mean I don't like these stats based adventure titles, I just don't consider them RPGs for one second.
And how exactly do you define an RPG?

[Serapth]

No prob.

As for the ignore list - it's the same damn people every time. Simply hating *anything* associated with the Sony brand.

Worhtless posters, I'll laugh so hard when FF12 outsells Oblivion (which I'm also buying) 4:1.

Thats not really true. Alot of people simply dislike Final Fantasy games, or JRPGS. It doesnt have jack to do with Sony in many cases.

Then again, many people bash it cause yeah... its related to Sony. Then again many people bash Xbox or Halo or whatever because its related to Microsoft.

[ElPresidente]

Considering how few the titles are that have ever gotten a perfect score, I am fairly certain you have no idea what you are talking about.

It was not meant to be taken as a literal truth. Hence the :D.

The point I was trying to make is that while I've not played FFXII I'm not surprised it scored highly in Famitsu. It is a quintessential Japanese title.

No I don't have much respect for Famitsu as a publication, it gives out 10s more readily than most publications I know. It is only because the odds of 4 seperate people giving a 10/10 is much lower than just one we have only seen a handful of 40s.

Even the much vaunted list of 40s does nothing for me.

Ocarina of Time
Soul Calibur
Vagrant Story
Windwaker
Nintendogs
Final Fantasy XII

There are some great titles in that list (Windwaker, Soul Calibur) but if you expand gaming beyond Japanese console gaming then not a one of those titles ranks in my personal greats.


And how exactly do you define an RPG?

An RPG is any game where you have control over the development of the character and the story. In Arcanum the story is driven by me and the world takes note of my actions. In a Final Fantasy game the story is driven by the game developers. No matter what the player does Squall will always be a brooding so and so who needs a good kick in the face... if FFVIII was an RPG then the player could have Squall act as a happy go lucky type, moustache twisting villain or something else entirely.

JRPGs (not a fan of that term either) don't give the player control over anything but the statistical development of their characters. This doesn't make them bad games, just not RPGs.

[Kelegacy]

Thats not really true. Alot of people simply dislike Final Fantasy games, or JRPGS. It doesnt have jack to do with Sony in many cases.

And why do these people find the need to come into a FF or RPG thread just to tear apart either a game they have yet to play or have no inclination to ever play, or berate a genre they care nothing about?

We'll see what happens if Blue Dragon ships and has a cookie-cutter plot, uninspired characters, and a redundant gameworld. This community will eat it up and ask for more.

[Serapth]

And why do these people find the need to come into a FF or RPG thread just to tear apart either a game they have yet to play or have no inclination to ever play, or berate a genre they care nothing about?

We'll see what happens if Blue Dragon ships and has a cookie-cutter plot, uninspired characters, and a redundant gameworld. This community will eat it up and ask for more.

Well, actually in this particular thread, it makes alot of sense. The thread is as much about the fact it got a perfect score, then anything else. Had the title been "Final Fantasy XII Ships in Japan" I would agree with you, but this time it didnt.

Lets flip this around, if the title was "Eurogamer calls Halo 3 The Best Game Ever Made", would you not expect the anti-Halo choir to chime in?

[Spigot]

And how exactly do you define an RPG?
I'll answer this for them (because I think we already had this discussion about a month or two ago and hopefully won't have to have it again).

A true RPG, as opposed to a JRPG/linear stat-based narrative/whatever, would likely be defined as a game where your actions have an effect on the world and you are not locked into one particular path of action. An RPG can have a storyline, but an RPG in the truest sense would allow you to disregard the storyline and just have fun in the world.

The Elder Scrolls game are probably some of the purest RPG's in videogame land at the moment because you can spend all of your time wandering around picking mushrooms and selling them if you so desire. Sure, you won't participate in actual story that the devs have set out, but if that's what amuses you, you can do it. Stats are usually used to show your progression as a character (ie. you can max out your mushroom picking skill, if such a thing existed, even though that wouldn't help you slay the daedric lord rising up in Red Mountain)

Your average JRPG, on the other hand, has a heavily scripted story with minimal freedom (aside from the occasional segments where you get to fly around the world in the requisite airship) and mainly consists of you getting from narrative sequence to narrative sequence with some spiffy combat of varying degrees of fun thrown in.

Of course, those are some of the simplest comparisons ever used for this subject. And I'm a person who actually prefers a decent story told with fancy battles to the truer, Elder Scrolls-like style of RPG.

I just think that if you want to play an Elder Scrolls type of RPG and hate JRPGs, so be it. Just don't be a snob and insist that anyone who plays a JRPG must have had a lobotomy. Vice versa for the JRPG fans.

[Borys]

- First of all, I feel SORRY for you that you even bothered to play FFX-2 for more than a few hours. Why would you do that to yourself? Seriously?

To complete a collection. It sucked. I hate it even though I like JPOP.

Finally, I would just like to say that Ultima > Final Fantasy. That is all.

Haha, well yeah (The Black Gate is the best RPG ever). And Might and Magic too. But let's not start a PC vs console thread in FF bashing one, mmmmkay? That would be over the top!

[EvilBob46]

Funny, the first Kingdom Hearts was a snore fest with pretty graphics and music.

Funny how I said Kingdom Hearts 2, which improves upon the original in almost every way. Watch for KH2 scoring high marks on any review site you can find 2 1/2 weeks from now and selling 6+ million copies.

[Borys]

Funny how I said Kingdom Hearts 2, which improves upon the original in almost every way. Not that you'd know this since you haven't even played it and are just talking out of your ass. Watch for KH2 scoring high marks on any review site you can find 2 1/2 weeks from now and selling 6+ million copies.

Good blow, EvilBob46.

Now watch him reply with "Britney Spears and 50 Cent also sell millions of albums yet they are CRAP!".

[Kelegacy]

Well, actually in this particular thread, it makes alot of sense. The thread is as much about the fact it got a perfect score, then anything else. Had the title been "Final Fantasy XII Ships in Japan" I would agree with you, but this time it didnt.

Lets flip this around, if the title was "Eurogamer calls Halo 3 The Best Game Ever Made", would you not expect the anti-Halo choir to chime in?
I'm not the biggest Halo fan in the world, but I wouldn't jump into a Halo 3 thread and say, "The last one sucked, this one will, too." Or, "Halo 3 will pale in comparison to any PC FPS." I'll wait until I play it and then tell you if I hate it.

A better comparison would be if I went into a rugby game thread and told fitbabits his taste in games sucked because rugby was boring. I know nothing about the sport of rugby, or cricket, but for me to hate them without ever playing them is nigh on retarded. "I saw it played once on tv and it looked stupid," isn't a good enough arguement.

[Kelegacy]

Good blow, EvilBob46.

Now watch him reply with "Britney Spears and 50 Cent also sell millions of albums yet they are CRAP!".

Haha, a preemptive parry to a preemptive flame! I think the universe just shuddered. :)

Haha, well yeah (The Black Gate is the best RPG ever).
Will you have my children?

[Serapth]

We'll see what happens if Blue Dragon ships and has a cookie-cutter plot, uninspired characters, and a redundant gameworld. This community will eat it up and ask for more.


I just thought about this for a few minutes and I came to the conclusion that I dont think the scenario you are playing out in your head is likely true.

I dont think the people that dont like jRpgs dislike them because they are Xbox fans. I think its more that they are into Western Styled RPGs ( which as it happens, Xbox has some of... Xbox in general was light on RPGS, east or west ). Its the fans of Baldurs Gate, Morrowind, Fall Out, etc... that are anti jRpgs. These same people most likely wont like Blue Dragon ( I say most likely making the assumption it will be like Final Fantasy ) either.

[Heretic Machine]

Funny how I said Kingdom Hearts 2, which improves upon the original in almost every way. Watch for KH2 scoring high marks on any review site you can find 2 1/2 weeks from now and selling 6+ million copies.

...and? High marks mean jack shit these days. They are bought. Kingdom Hearts got great scores, but it still had derivative gameplay, budget level in fact. The graphics, the music, and the licenses are what made people buy that game. Slap that gameplay onto something without the license, and you have a dud.

EDIT: And BTW, I don't buy the sequels to games I don't like. It just doesn't happen. The only reason I even consider renting FFXII is because I liked VI, and so I know the series is not inherently flawed.

And I can still enjoy all of the good parts of Kingdom Hearts II just by downloading the intro movie. There, I just saved myself $50.

[Serapth]

I'm not the biggest Halo fan in the world, but I wouldn't jump into a Halo 3 thread and say, "The last one sucked, this one will, too." Or, "Halo 3 will pale in comparison to any PC FPS." I'll wait until I play it and then tell you if I hate it.

A better comparison would be if I went into a rugby game thread and told fitbabits his taste in games sucked because rugby was boring. I know nothing about the sport of rugby, or cricket, but for me to hate them without ever playing them is nigh on retarded. "I saw it played once on tv and it looked stupid," isn't a good enough arguement.

See you may not jump into the Halo thread to take shots, but I bet you lots of people do. Equal to the number of people posting here against FFXII.

As to your second analogy, I think its flawed. You said " I know nothing about the sport of rugby..." which would imply that the people posting here know nothing about Final Fantasy. From what im reading alot of these people do know alot about FF, have played the games, and frankly dont like them.

[Borys]

Haha, a preemptive parry to a preemptive flame! I think the universe just shuddered. :)

Will you have my children?

No thanks.
I prefer to think of you as my long lost polish brother, Kelegacy :)

[Rommel]

I wonder if this has anything to do with J-Player's recent votes for the best games of all time? Or perhaps the delays were worth it. Personally, I have loved every main FF game save 8 and, oddly, 4 so this is definitely good news for me.

[ElPresidente]

...and? High marks mean jack shit these days. They are bought.

As someone who actually earns a living writing games reviews I'd just like to emphasise that despite having covered high profile games such as Civilisation IV, Dawn of War and The Sims 2 I've not once been given a directive from my editor to give a game a certain score, nor have my review scores ever been changed behind my back.

I have no doubt there are one or two unscrupulous publications out there that allow themselves to be dictated to by publishers but speaking as a guy who actually works in that industry I can tell you that they are most assuredly in the minority. Writers tend to be proud folk and don't like people messing with their work... you don't keep writing for a publication if they keep changing your score or telling you what to give a game.

I'm sorry the whole "Scores are bought" thing is largely (not entirely) bollocks. At least as print media is concerned.

Thankfully KH didn't get much of a good wrap from the press here in Australia so my point isn't invalidated. (No, I didn't like KH) :P

Will you have my children?

And mine please?

[Nessus]

Not that anyone cares what I think, but the last FF game I really enjoyed was VI. In fact FFVI is one of my top 3 favorite games ever, along with Super Metroid and TIE Fighter.

Then they released VII.

At first I was really impressed by the cinematic presentation (though I still can't stand how not one of the commercials for FFVII showed any actual gameplay, I went into it thinking the cinemas were representative of gameplay). And overall I like parts of the aesthetic, the Weapons, Shinra, etc. But gradually I became aware that this was a completely different beast from FFVI. It seemed calculated to appeal to a different crowd, and as a business decision that was obviously a very smart move.

FFVI was amazing. Steam-Punk, a dozen characters more genuinely likeable than Barret, Squall, or Tidus.

While I have always applauded Square's decision to overhaul the battle mechanics with each subsequent game, the random battles and general disconnect you feel during battles always turned me off.

I mean you have EarthBound an SNES RPG that in some ways has more progressive mechanics than FFX. You come up against a really weak enemy you automatically win, don't have to bother fighting it. You can see all the enemies on the map before battle and choose to avoid fights if you so desire.

Similarly Chrono Trigger sports some mechanics that would have really helped FF.

Yet in FFX (which I haven't played, but watched my sister's boyfriend play through) still has the random encounters, still has these retarded long battle animations that cannot be skipped (yes, you can shorten the summons somewhat, wowie! What is Square's aversion to allowing you to skip these stupid animations that, by the end of the game you'll have witnessed hundreds of times?), and this innane dialogue that constantly reitterates the 3 main points of the story ("We can break the Cycles!" "No! It's her duty to sacrificer herself!" "She does not have to die!") and adding little. It's sad that it's coupled with that rather interesting skill progression chart. Also I hate Blitz Ball and Tidus' outfit.

And after playing the recent Mario RPG games I don't know if I can ever go back to the boring combat of most console RPGs. I love how Mario RPG games actually involve you. Add strength to your attack by pressing at the right moment. Create combos in real time. You can even avoid attacks if you time things right so your character isn't stupidly standing there waiting to get hit.

That said, FFXII interests me somewhat more than VIII-X did, simply because they are finally, apparently, overhauling the outdated aspects of the battle system. Though the airbrushed, bare chested, male (female?) porn star look of the main character does nothing for me.

[Phades]

No prob.

As for the ignore list - it's the same damn people every time. Simply hating *anything* associated with the Sony brand.

Worhtless posters, I'll laugh so hard when FF12 outsells Oblivion (which I'm also buying) 4:1.

Why would you laugh hard? That's an easy prediction. Kind of like predicting that Gran Turismo 3 would outsell Forza.

[Tohoya]

I'm a hardcore FF fanboy, and I loved the demo. I don't understand what everybody (*coughPAcough*) is upset about. Though I do hope they eventually go back to the old system; ADB is good, but so is ATB. But honestly, ADB isn't that huge of a change. Once you learn how to manipulate it, it's not that much different from normal FF. The bigger change IMO is the shallow but regening MP supply; you get less MP, but you actually get MP from running around, so you don't have to worry as much about conserving it. That's a much bigger change IMO.

[Tohoya]

I'll answer this for them (because I think we already had this discussion about a month or two ago and hopefully won't have to have it again).

A true RPG, as opposed to a JRPG/linear stat-based narrative/whatever, would likely be defined as a game where your actions have an effect on the world and you are not locked into one particular path of action. An RPG can have a storyline, but an RPG in the truest sense would allow you to disregard the storyline and just have fun in the world.

The Elder Scrolls game are probably some of the purest RPG's in videogame land at the moment because you can spend all of your time wandering around picking mushrooms and selling them if you so desire. Sure, you won't participate in actual story that the devs have set out, but if that's what amuses you, you can do it. Stats are usually used to show your progression as a character (ie. you can max out your mushroom picking skill, if such a thing existed, even though that wouldn't help you slay the daedric lord rising up in Red Mountain)

Your average JRPG, on the other hand, has a heavily scripted story with minimal freedom (aside from the occasional segments where you get to fly around the world in the requisite airship) and mainly consists of you getting from narrative sequence to narrative sequence with some spiffy combat of varying degrees of fun thrown in.

Of course, those are some of the simplest comparisons ever used for this subject. And I'm a person who actually prefers a decent story told with fancy battles to the truer, Elder Scrolls-like style of RPG.

I just think that if you want to play an Elder Scrolls type of RPG and hate JRPGs, so be it. Just don't be a snob and insist that anyone who plays a JRPG must have had a lobotomy. Vice versa for the JRPG fans.

Bah, it's only a degree of difference, not of kind, between the American style RPGs and Japanese RPGs. The only kind of game that has enough freedom to really merit that distinction is pen and paper RPGs. Go play some D&D or Shadowrun, noob.

[Draft]

Vagrant MOTHERFUCKING Story. Best PSX game, bar none. I might buy a goddamn PS2 to play FF12. Yes, you read that right.

edit: btw, Borys getting upset at people hating on japanese games/ Sony is so fucking funny.

[Megalith]

FFXII actually scored a 5/40, due to its character designs.

[Spigot]

Bah, it's only a degree of difference, not of kind, between the American style RPGs and Japanese RPGs. The only kind of game that has enough freedom to really merit that distinction is pen and paper RPGs. Go play some D&D or Shadowrun, noob.
I hope that this is a sarcastic post. Of course a PnP RPG allows for the most freedom, especially given that it's constrained only by the ruleset and the imagination of the players.

I'll still argue that a 'western' style RPG is a lot closer to a PnP RPG in that it will tend to cater to a variety of choices and not force you to play as a particular character in an unfolding story that you cannot alter (a la your typical JRPG).

Granted, some JRPGs, Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne, for instance, strike a happy medium between the choice of a Western RPG and the scripted storytelling of a JRPG by giving you a huge variety of outcomes and choices within the structures of the story. It's not quite the wide open freedom of an Oblivion or a game of R.I.F.T.S., but it's a bit of a departure from the constraints of a Grandia or Final Fantasy game.

All that being said, I have a personal fondness for the more story heavy JRPG than the wide open wandering of your typical western CRPG. But again, THAT IS JUST MY OPINION. I just don't have the time to wander as aimlessly as I used to.

Vagrant MOTHERFUCKING Story. Best PSX game, bar none. I might buy a goddamn PS2 to play FF12. Yes, you read that right
Yay! Another member of the cult. Your Vagrant Story Hater Sacrificing Robes will arrive shortly.

[Savok]

Huh? I was 12 when i played this game and it's not even in my native language, yet i had no problems apart from having my head up my ass :)
One word

Doomtrain

[Kelegacy]

Vagrant MOTHERFUCKING Story. Best PSX game, bar none. I might buy a goddamn PS2 to play FF12. Yes, you read that right.

edit: btw, Borys getting upset at people hating on japanese games/ Sony is so fucking funny.
I have two copies of Vagrant Story. I bought it used, but instead of the clerk putting a demo disc in the second cd holder, he put another copy of the same game! I never got too far in, maybe to the second boss, though.

[Balthasar]

An RPG is any game where you have control over the development of the character and the story. In Arcanum the story is driven by me and the world takes note of my actions. In a Final Fantasy game the story is driven by the game developers. No matter what the player does Squall will always be a brooding so and so who needs a good kick in the face... if FFVIII was an RPG then the player could have Squall act as a happy go lucky type, moustache twisting villain or something else entirely.

JRPGs (not a fan of that term either) don't give the player control over anything but the statistical development of their characters. This doesn't make them bad games, just not RPGs.
It's been said by someone already, but there really aren't any programmed games that allow that degree of freedom. You can't, by definition, be that free and still have a pre-programmed ending. That games like Oblivion bring us closer to this definition does not make it actually fit that definition.

[Royal Fool]

Sometimes it feels like people are getting paid to hate on FF8, despite many of them probably never having played it.

Buuuut... I've lost all interest since then. Square-Enix jumped the shark many years ago.

[Balthasar]

All that being said, I have a personal fondness for the more story heavy JRPG than the wide open wandering of your typical western CRPG. But again, THAT IS JUST MY OPINION. I just don't have the time to wander as aimlessly as I used to.
I disagree with your definition of RPG (as I don't think any video games actually fit that definition), but I would say that I don't play RPGs for their abundance of choices anyway. I like choices, but I'm more interested in being told a story.

Yay! Another member of the cult. Your Vagrant Story Hater Sacrificing Robes will arrive shortly.
Vagrant Story is subtly awesome. There's something about that game that really hit a cord with me when I played it that I still can't put my finger on. Definitely a game worth going back to.

[Balthasar]

It's not my fault all of the FF games on sony systems sucked shit. FFVII was the best of the lot, and that's not saying much.
Shocker. I can't wait until these two RPGs from Mistwalker come out. I can't wait to see if there's any objectivity left in you to be squeezed out.

[Savok]

I played through FF8 AND understood how the junction system works. That's why I hated it, juction Flare or something into strength and you get an "I Win" button. First half of the game is summon summon summon, second half is bashing on normal attack.

[mulligan]

You know what? You're why I stopped watching anime, and am just now able to go back to watching even the good stuff. Fucktards like you who feel the need to distance theirselves from some "stupid American" stereotype and latch on to Japan because of what they've almost completly imagined from minor exposure to Japanese POP-CULTURE. Want to know a secret? You don't know dick about Japan or Japanese culture. You're just one of a million Wapanese assholes who need to grow up.


So.. cursing others and calling them "Fucktards" and "Dicks" makes you edgy?
It makes you a douche bag, I think you are the biggest douche bag I've ever seen .. I dont think there's anything beyond you assholeness... in fact, from now... bah, it's not even worth it, pathetic forum troll.

[DirtyChimp]

Lets all fight about a game we have never played for 15 pages of posts. because that's definitely worth our time.

[Draft]

Lets all fight about a game we have never played for 15 pages of posts. because that's definitely worth our time.let's get the post per page limit boosted to 100 please, like every other forum in the universe.

[ElPresidente]

It's been said by someone already, but there really aren't any programmed games that allow that degree of freedom. You can't, by definition, be that free and still have a pre-programmed ending. That games like Oblivion bring us closer to this definition does not make it actually fit that definition.

Of this I wont disagree but it is easy to see when a game is aiming for that goal versus one that doesn't. You can see that Fallout attempts to give the player a unique experience each time they play based on their choices where as Final Fantasy on the other hand does not care for your decisions, prefering a strong narrative to drive the player through the game.

There is a very clean distinction between the two game styles. Considering that the term RPG in gaming comes from pen and paper RPGs (which all focused on player driven story telling) I'm simply of the belief the term doesn't apply to Final Fantasy or any other supposed JRPG.

HOWEVER that's just me being a pedant who loves his RPG gaming. In a more practical sense RPG does include both game styles under its banner since words can only have the meaning popularly given to them. Since 90% of the population call both Final Fantasy and Morrowind RPGs then the genre has forced to expand to capture both disparate game styles.

I don't like it (for what purpose genre if two totally different styles of game get called the same thing) but I gotta live with it.

Simply because we all love to wax argumentative on forums like this I stand by my belief that the true meaning of the RPG genre does not include games where there is no attempt to hand story control over the player. So there! :D

[Kelegacy]

let's get the post per page limit boosted to 100 please, like every other forum in the universe.
The limit is pretty high already. You can change it in your preferences if you haven't done so yet. I'm only seeing 4 pages here.

[Kelegacy]

Of this I wont disagree but it is easy to see when a game is aiming for that goal versus one that doesn't. You can see that Fallout attempts to give the player a unique experience each time they play based on their choices where as Final Fantasy on the other hand does not care for your decisions, prefering a strong narrative to drive the player through the game.

There is a very clean distinction between the two game styles. Considering that the term RPG in gaming comes from pen and paper RPGs (which all focused on player driven story telling) I'm simply of the belief the term doesn't apply to Final Fantasy or any other supposed JRPG.

HOWEVER that's just me being a pedant who loves his RPG gaming. In a more practical sense RPG does include both game styles under its banner since words can only have the meaning popularly given to them. Since 90% of the population call both Final Fantasy and Morrowind RPGs then the genre has forced to expand to capture both disparate game styles.

I don't like it (for what purpose genre if two totally different styles of game get called the same thing) but I gotta live with it.

Simply because we all love to wax argumentative on forums like this I stand by my belief that the true meaning of the RPG genre does not include games where there is no attempt to hand story control over the player. So there! :D

I'd be playing many more PC rpgs if, you know, they actually MADE SOME! JRPGs aren't my drug of choice, not when I can have an Oblivion, Ultima, Baldur's Gate, or Might & Magic, but I'll take what I can get. And the PS2 is the home of the most games that resemble RPGs.

And I don't mean PC RPGs that take a page from the Diablo book. Everyone already knows I don't enjoy those, nor are they RPGs. Action games with swords.

The death of the PC RPG, for me, was circa 2000. Before that, CRPGs were at their pinnacle. Now that Bioware is in the habit of making console type RPGs that stink in comparison to their previous efforts (with each game since BG2 getting worse than the last) and other developers are going the Dungeon Siege route of gameplay, I am stuck with the consoles. I am having fun, but I yearn for the days of old. And now that the consoles are so goddamn popular, huge, epic games like BG2 will never happen again.

But we've got Oblivion coming, and that should satisfy for a little bit. Oh, and that's not to say that other excellent RPGs haven't stepped up to help out on the PC, like the Ultima-successors Divine Divinity and Gothic, but it's like a war where two or three people showing up to fight a legion.

[Balthasar]

There is a very clean distinction between the two game styles. Considering that the term RPG in gaming comes from pen and paper RPGs (which all focused on player driven story telling) I'm simply of the belief the term doesn't apply to Final Fantasy or any other supposed JRPG.
The problem here is, while the term does originally refer to the pen-and-paper game, the term was only created to define, in the simplest way, what it is you do in the game: play a role. This is a term invented before video games could be graphically representative enough to actually allow you to do that. By the meaning of the words used to form that term--and even to a degree by your definition--games like Grand Theft Auto can fit under the umbrella. I would say if you see the styles of gameplay to be so disparate as to not be appropriately placed under the same banner (which there is some credence to, I admit), the term "role playing game" must be excised all together. All video games allow you to play roles. What you're talking about isn't really about role-playing; its about something akin to the "will to power."

Simply because we all love to wax argumentative on forums like this I stand by my belief that the true meaning of the RPG genre does not include games where there is no attempt to hand story control over the player. So there! :D
And I'll stand by my idea that your differences require neologisms in gaming lexicon!

[ElPresidente]

Just because I'm an argumentative bastard. :P (Well more to the point I enjoy argument when people are putting thought into it as is the case with Balthasar).

The problem here is, while the term does originally refer to the pen-and-paper game, the term was only created to define, in the simplest way, what it is you do in the game: play a role. This is a term invented before video games could be graphically representative enough to actually allow you to do that. By the meaning of the words used to form that term--and even to a degree by your definition--games like Grand Theft Auto can fit under the umbrella.

The problem here is literalism is not the only way to understand the English language (indeed I would argue is just not a way to understand english period) as you mention yourself later on when you point out all games allow you to play a role. Take the school yard game of handball... the name describes a strong element of the game (ie: slapping a ball with your hand against the wall - I hope to God that handball isn't something only Australians will understand :P) but the choice of that term was not intended to cover all ball games where you use your hands. Same goes with RPGs... yes it was used to describe elements of the game style but not intended to cover all activities where roles were being acted out despite a literalist interpretation suggesting otherwise would be the case.

I would say if you see the styles of gameplay to be so disparate as to not be appropriately placed under the same banner (which there is some credence to, I admit), the term "role playing game" must be excised all together. All video games allow you to play roles. What you're talking about isn't really about role-playing; its about something akin to the "will to power."

Once again this depends if you take a literalist interpretation. I don't and while Top Spin is not actually tennis... it is a video game recreation of tennis, it is fitting it is called a tennis game because it is attempting to recreate tennis in the video game world. For this reason I suggest RPG be limited to those games like Oblivion and such since they are attempts to recreate RPGs in another medium.


And I'll stand by my idea that your differences require neologisms in gaming lexicon!

You had me for a second there... I had to go look up neologisms. :D

Now I know what that means I disagree but will accept that viewpoint as a compromise. Lets just stop calling FF an RPG. ;)

And I don't mean PC RPGs that take a page from the Diablo book. Everyone already knows I don't enjoy those, nor are they RPGs. Action games with swords.

Quoted for emphasis. :D

[Balthasar]

Once again this depends if you take a literalist interpretation. I don't and while Top Spin is not actually tennis... it is a video game recreation of tennis, it is fitting it is called a tennis game because it is attempting to recreate tennis in the video game world. For this reason I suggest RPG be limited to those games like Oblivion and such since they are attempts to recreate RPGs in another medium.
I don't think it's so literalist at all. When you consider those tabletop games before videogames as we know them, you really were just playing a role. You could extend that to outside of the actual game and always be in character, but outside of the world of the game (which, as I'm sure you recall, attached some very negative stigmas to it). It wasn't so much about legitimately affecting what happens in the world around you so much as affecting who you, as the player, were. I see Oblivion and Final Fantasy as being two different interpretations of a source neither actually translate exactly. JRPGs are about being another person and living their (rather extraordinary) life; CRPGS are more about influencing the shape of the world around yourself. In the freedom you gain in some CRPGs, you lose the sense of character that really was essential in the old school games. And in the restrictiveness of JRPGs, you lose a lot of the randomness of the variables of your character's story.

[ProfPuppet]

Wait, people thought FF8 was incredibly awesome? Did I miss something when playing it? I thought it was pretty fun aside from the junction system, those dream sequence type things where you get control of those other characters, and missing a lot of stuff because of said junction system. (A couple of summons I didn't get and learned I couldn't get until much, much later on because the first time around I didn't drain them or whatever to get them. Feeling forced to follow a strategy guide every step of the way to make sure I didn't screw myself over wasn't fun.)

So, did I miss something? And why compare it to 8, I thought 7 (no roman numerals for you) was supposed to be the best one?

[Spigot]

I disagree with your definition of RPG (as I don't think any video games actually fit that definition), but I would say that I don't play RPGs for their abundance of choices anyway. I like choices, but I'm more interested in being told a story.

I understand where you're coming from. That said, unless we outright ban the use of the term RPG to describe any electronic game where there isn't total control given to the player, I'll keep using it to describe this multiheaded beast we currently call RPG's. I use it as a catch-all term to describe all of these various games and until someone comes up with a better term, I'll stick with it. I already have a hard enough time explaining these games when I use the RPG nomenclature. I shudder to think about what the poor clerk at EB would say if I walked in and asked if they had any new stat-based adventure titles or pseudo life simulators in stock.

Actually, I am curious to know both Balthasar's and ElPresidente's takes on MMORPG's like WoW or City of Heroes/Villains. Are those games "real RPG's" or are they merely pretenders? The focus of the conversation here has been mostly about single-player experiences. Given that MMO's don't tend to have a script, as such, do they then conform to your definitions or is it PnP OR BUST?

Good arguements on both sides though. Nothing like arguing semantics to get the brain working while you're stuck at work (or half awake like I am).Vagrant Story is subtly awesome. There's something about that game that really hit a cord with me when I played it that I still can't put my finger on. Definitely a game worth going back to.
It's definately a game that rewards you proportionate to how much time and effort you put into it. Like Kelegacy, I got to the second boss (the Golem) and just gave up on my first attempt at the game. A couple years later, I fired it up, actually read the manual and paid attention to how the weapon system worked and was rewarded with one of the better games that I have played. The plot is about as far away from cookie cutter as you can get and the art is just lovely (esp. with texture smoothing on). It's definately not something you just pick up and start bashing away at without using your noggin.

Hmm... Now I really want to play it again, but I have about 8 other 'RPGs' to play in the meantime.

[Spigot]

So, did I miss something? And why compare it to 8, I thought 7 (no roman numerals for you) was supposed to be the best one?
Actually, Famitsu recently declared that FFX was the best game of all time, much to the EvAv community's chagrin (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10283).

[Balthasar]

Actually, Famitsu recently declared that FFX was the best game of all time, much to the EvAv community's chagrin (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10283).
If you notice, Famitsu didn't declare anything. It was a reader poll, which doesn't reflect anything more than the tastes of their active readers.

[Zeal]

Famitsu is the most biased piece of shit in the industry.

[Spigot]

If you notice, Famitsu didn't declare anything. It was a reader poll, which doesn't reflect anything more than the tastes of their active readers.My mistake. I was mainly trying to point out that FF7 isn't necessarily concidered the best FF...

That will teach me not to reference threads from a few days ago at 1 am... However, "Famitsu is, overwhelmingly, the voice of the Japanese games community, dwarfing all other publications in sales and influence."

So if they publish a list of the top 100 games according to readers...

Um... somehow the arguement I had in my head made sense. What I've just typed, on the other hand, doesn't.

And yes, Zeal, we've seen your take (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=215284&postcount=106) on the whole thing already.

Can you tell it's 1:30am and I'm sitting here with a baby on my lap? I'm amazed I've made this much sense!

[Achilles]

I’m glad it got such a high score. After the demo, all the delays, and the fact that the combat system is real-time, I was worried that it wouldn’t turn out well. But 40/40 is a good (perfect in-fact) score and now I’m looking forward to it again.

I’d like them to do away with the fey main characters. Let’s go back to the tortured super-soldier, Square. Maybe the guys who left to make Mistwalker will go back to the classic Final Fantasy hero/heroine with Lost Odyssey, because Blue Dragon sure doesn’t have one.

[Heretic Machine]

So.. cursing others and calling them "Fucktards" and "Dicks" makes you edgy?
It makes you a douche bag, I think you are the biggest douche bag I've ever seen .. I dont think there's anything beyond you assholeness... in fact, from now... bah, it's not even worth it, pathetic forum troll.

Oh nooooes! Another asshole who thinks I'm trying to be edgy! I'm not trying to be edgy, I'm trying to drill some sense into your tiny Wapanese brain.

[Borys]

Oh nooooes! Another asshole who thinks I'm trying to be edgy! I'm not trying to be edgy, I'm trying to drill some sense into your tiny Wapanese brain.

Calling names doesn't make your already void argument any better.

[KamaItachi]

Famitsu is the most biased piece of shit in the industry.


Hell yeah, I mean, did you read their comments on FF12?

Oh no, wait, you didn't.

[Chiron]

Vagrant MOTHERFUCKING Story. Best PSX game, bar none.

I really wanted to love Vagrant Story, but the awful interface and clunky combat pushed me away. It's been awhile, but I remember wanting a quick weapon swap on the shoulder buttons.

I think I got a few bosses in before losing interest. I hadn't leveled my weapon enough versus a certain type of creature and was therefore unable to progress. Loved the dialog though.

Is it worth grabbing a FAQ and firing it up again? Its still sitting in my collection.

[Draft]

The limit is pretty high already. You can change it in your preferences if you haven't done so yet. I'm only seeing 4 pages here.It's 40 posts per page. Which is pretty fucking low, if you ask me.

[Borys]

Hey lovers & h8rs, here's translation of the four tens:

First reviewer:
"As always a grand story and the ever slightly changing battle system pulls you in more and more. The large maps that you battle in especially can make you lose track of time because of its appeal. It's amazing that a single player game can make you feel like you're playing with team mates!"

Second reviewer:
"It may feel awkward at first for FFX players since the battle system takes ques from the FFXI battle system, but the Gambit system will make getting used to the system a smooth transition. The freedom that can be achieved is great, even if the gamer's skills are limited. The story is great as usual and the acting is impressive."

Third reviewer:
"A very generous game in how it's built. The story is rock solid but offers a great sense of freedom. The battles are a joy to play once you're used to the transitionless nature. There are times when you may just die instantly, so caution is to be taken at all times. This nervousness also makes the game a lot more exciting and fun."

Fourth reviewer:
"Visuals that take your breath away, a complicating lking yet easy to play system, a balanced experience that fits all playing styles -- there are no faults in this game. You'll somehow get really into the game at one point and won't be able to stop. Even compared to the classic FFs, this can be ranked right alongside of them."

Best FF game ever confirmed. Fucking-A!

[Serapth]

There are times when you may just die instantly, so caution is to be taken at all times.

If i was reviewing it, and this happened even once, BLAMMO 10% off. Un-fucking forgivable design flaw. NEVER instant kill the player without reason, NEVER. Grrr.

[Balthasar]

If i was reviewing it, and this happened even once, BLAMMO 10% off. Un-fucking forgivable design flaw. NEVER instant kill the player without reason, NEVER. Grrr.
That translation doesn't actually state why he died instantly. There is definitely a bias against difficulty in gaming these past 6 years or so, it seems, so I imagine the reason why would be mostly irrelevant.

[Spigot]

If i was reviewing it, and this happened even once, BLAMMO 10% off. Un-fucking forgivable design flaw. NEVER instant kill the player without reason, NEVER. Grrr.
Have you ever played SMT: Nocturne? There are many bosses and even normal monsters that can insta-kill you. It's not a design flaw. It's called difficulty.

I don't mind this as long as it's not something that happens at the end of a 30 minute dungeon crawl.

THEN it gets annoying. At least you had some warning in SMT: Nocturne before fighting Matador.

[Spigot]

I really wanted to love Vagrant Story, but the awful interface and clunky combat pushed me away. It's been awhile, but I remember wanting a quick weapon swap on the shoulder buttons.

I think I got a few bosses in before losing interest. I hadn't leveled my weapon enough versus a certain type of creature and was therefore unable to progress. Loved the dialog though.

Is it worth grabbing a FAQ and firing it up again? Its still sitting in my collection.
See my above post.

Vagrant Story is definately worth playing through. You have to take the time to build up a small arsenal of weapons, each with a different specialty, but once you do that you'll have a much easier time at it. I had to take a break of a couple years between my first attempt and the second. After taking the time to really learn the weapon/battle system, I found the game challenging but not impossible. It is worth playing for the very cool story.

[Serapth]

Have you ever played SMT: Nocturne? There are many bosses and even normal monsters that can insta-kill you. It's not a design flaw. It's called difficulty.

I don't mind this as long as it's not something that happens at the end of a 30 minute dungeon crawl.

THEN it gets annoying. At least you had some warning in SMT: Nocturne before fighting Matador.

If the player has no effect on the outcome, its not difficulty, its stupidity and a bad design flaw. See, games like Ninja Gaiden:Black are difficult because its really really hard. But you can still based on the players skill, survive. A game however, that kills a player instantly, based on a random factor and not the players actions... thats not difficult, thats stupid.

[Spigot]

If the player has no effect on the outcome, its not difficulty, its stupidity and a bad design flaw. See, games like Ninja Gaiden:Black are difficult because its really really hard. But you can still based on the players skill, survive. A game however, that kills a player instantly, based on a random factor and not the players actions... thats not difficult, thats stupid.
Ah, but in SMT: Nocturne, at least, it is something the player can obviate if they have the proper skills/powers equipped. Given that it's a turn-based game, you can't rely on muscle reflexes as much as planning ahead.

The Matador fight in Nocturne is very difficult because he can insta-kill you before you gain the ability to counter it. However, it's not impossible and the sense of accomplishment upon beating him is quite high given how easily he can destroy you.

Ninja Gaiden is another great example of fair difficulty in that it's not the game's fault that you die, it's your's. It just happens to be based on motor reflexes as opposed to the more cerebral difficulty of a turn-based battle.

For me, a design flaw is when you have a shoddy camera, bad clipping or similar technical glitch that artificially increases the difficulty not through actual gameplay, but by rendering the battle or what have you nigh-unplayable.

I'm trying to think of a good example of a game that is hobbled by this... Super Mario Sunshine's ferris wheel level springs to mind. What would be a fun, somewhat challenging trip up a series of platforms is made infinitely more complex given the fact that the camera cannot be positioned in such a way as to see Mario while he is behind something. You're essentially doing the platforming segment blind.

THAT is a design flaw that artificially increases difficulty. Giving a monster the ability to insta-kill isn't, at least not in my mind. It may be annoying, but I can figure out a strategy to deal with it, although maybe not until my second time encountering it.

Now back to your regularly scheduled topic...

[Balthasar]

Actually, I am curious to know both Balthasar's and ElPresidente's takes on MMORPG's like WoW or City of Heroes/Villains. Are those games "real RPG's" or are they merely pretenders? The focus of the conversation here has been mostly about single-player experiences. Given that MMO's don't tend to have a script, as such, do they then conform to your definitions or is it PnP OR BUST?
Well, I think it gets part of the tabletop experience right, because there is so much social interaction in those games that you have a kind of freedom over your character that you don't necessarily have in JRPGs or in single player PC RPGs. But, from what I have seen from MMOs (I refuse to play them), they don't seem to have the level of storytelling or environment interaction that JRPGs or PC RPGS, respectively, excel at. Also, the mind-numbing/obsessively repetitive tasks so common to the genre are beyond anything I think were intended within the scope of role-playing.

Like Kelegacy, I got to the second boss (the Golem) and just gave up on my first attempt at the game. A couple years later, I fired it up, actually read the manual and paid attention to how the weapon system worked and was rewarded with one of the better games that I have played. The plot is about as far away from cookie cutter as you can get and the art is just lovely (esp. with texture smoothing on). It's definately not something you just pick up and start bashing away at without using your noggin.
It actually took me a little while to really warm up to it after I first got it. I think I might have gotten stuck at a cube puzzle and lost interest with the way combat was. But then I came back to it and paid more attention to the importance of weapon affinities and blade types and all that fun stuff and realized how much more strategic I needed to be to have any success. Then it really got fun and it didn't let me go until I beat it. I never did complete those hidden dungeons, though. I should do that sometime.

[Kelegacy]

Have you ever played SMT: Nocturne? There are many bosses and even normal monsters that can insta-kill you. It's not a design flaw. It's called difficulty.

I don't mind this as long as it's not something that happens at the end of a 30 minute dungeon crawl.

THEN it gets annoying. At least you had some warning in SMT: Nocturne before fighting Matador.
Yeah, some warning! I was using a FAQ and I only died the first time. Actually, the FAQ was because of him. I actually gave the game up near the 10 hour mark because it was so goddamn cheap! Most times you have no clue what the boss will be immune to or weak against and during the fight it's too late to switch magatama.

[Crabby]

Guys, guys, guys: Instant-death in a console RPG or PC RPG means nothing more than reloading from the last save. Challenge doesn't even fit the equation, it's just a hassle. A well-designed RPG will allow the player to counter such things when they actually encounter them. I mean, a person could make a perfectly good argument about how badly the last Breath of Fire sucked simply because it forced you to die and replay the game numerous times. Challenge? No, not when it is hard-wired into the game as unbreakable law.

Personally, I am going to remember those reviewer comments concerning the story whenever it is I go to digest this dubious of fantasies.

[Phades]

I'd be curious to see what the same reviewers thought of the story for FFX which I thought was lame. I'm hopeful that this one really does have a good story though, the previews look cool.

[Spigot]

I'd be curious to see what the same reviewers thought of the story for FFX which I thought was lame. I'm hopeful that this one really does have a good story though, the previews look cool.
I just like the fact that XII has airships a-plenty and they seem to be pretty integral to the storyline. That alone will sell many a game to me. I'm just a sucker for airships.

*longs for the return of the transcontinental dirigible...*

[Kelegacy]

I just like the fact that XII has airships a-plenty and they seem to be pretty integral to the storyline. That alone will sell many a game to me. I'm just a sucker for airships.

*longs for the return of the transcontinental dirigible...*
Ever play Arcanum? You are the sole survivor of an attack on a zeppelin. Sweet stuff.

[Crabby]

Ever play Arcanum? You are the sole survivor of an attack on a zeppelin. Sweet stuff.

I would propose a reference to Skies of Arcadia, the cadillac of airship games.

[Borys]

Come on 200 comments.

[JediSanf]

Ever play Arcanum? You are the sole survivor of an attack on a zeppelin. Sweet stuff.

I'll throw in a vote for Arcanum. I'm giving it another run-through now.

[ElPresidente]

Actually, I am curious to know both Balthasar's and ElPresidente's takes on MMORPG's like WoW or City of Heroes/Villains. Are those games "real RPG's" or are they merely pretenders? The focus of the conversation here has been mostly about single-player experiences. Given that MMO's don't tend to have a script, as such, do they then conform to your definitions or is it PnP OR BUST?

For my part I believe these games have the correct framework for RPGing... BUT don't end up being RPGs (by my definition at least) simply because the players don't roleplay. Unfortunately with any MMO this is going to be the case since it can't be policed in the way smaller MUSH/MUD communities can be.

It is feasible that if players acted in character then the game would be a true RPG. At the moment though it seems people only care about the level grind and becoming more powerful. Though I am sure there are RP guilds out there who focus on the RPG aspects.

One game I will tip my hat to is EVE in this matter. While most people still aren't playing in character the fact that so much of the universe is player controlled it moves closer to the RPG ideal than other MMOs.


BTW - Another Arcanum fan here. My fav RPG ever.

[Spigot]

Ever play Arcanum? You are the sole survivor of an attack on a zeppelin. Sweet stuff.
I have played a bit of Arcanum, but I never got very far. I still have it on my old hard drive, but I haven't fired it up in ages. I really like the setting and anything with zeppelins is right up my alley.

Now Skies of Arcadia is one of my most favouritest games of all time. I should go fire up my DC now and start it again. I remember bringing my VMU to work to search for treasure (this is back before I got a GBA...)

Thanks a lot. Between all of the talk about Vagrant Story and now Skies of Arcadia and Arcanum, I'm going to be dusting off a bunch of old games now. Yarg.

[ElPresidente]

I tried really hard to get into Skies of Arcadia (GCN version, not DC) but found the random battles too frequent to keep me interested. I've only gotten past the first true dungeon bit (That bit ring thing with the water).

Now yes, go play Arcanum. Best replayability I've seen in any game.

[Rakael]

I guess I should really give Arcanum another shot. I have installed it probably five times now, but never make it much past the first major city (not that mountain town). It just seems to crawl along at a snails pace, but maybe I'm just not giving it enough time to get going. I want to like it so badly, but just can't seem to get into it.

I for one could not give a flying fuck or a rolling donut if you people like, hate, will buy, will boycott, or anything else having to do with FFXII personally. Argue about it all you want, I will still be buying it. Not only that, but millions of others across the globe will as well. If you don't like a game, or a particular style of game, then don't fucking buy it and shut your god damned mouths please. Another very acceptable thing to do would be to state that you don't like it and move on. You will never convince me, or anyone else for that matter, that we are somehow wrong in liking JRPGs or whatever else it is some of you rail against given any opportunity. Knowing this, why do you feel the need to preach to us in nearly every fucking thread? An opinion CANNOT be wrong, no matter how much you want to beleive it so.

[Kelegacy]

I guess I should really give Arcanum another shot. I have installed it probably five times now, but never make it much past the first major city (not that mountain town). It just seems to crawl along at a snails pace, but maybe I'm just not giving it enough time to get going. I want to like it so badly, but just can't seem to get into it.

I for one could not give a flying fuck or a rolling donut if you people like, hate, will buy, will boycott, or anything else having to do with FFXII personally. Argue about it all you want, I will still be buying it. Not only that, but millions of others across the globe will as well. If you don't like a game, or a particular style of game, then don't fucking buy it and shut your god damned mouths please. Another very acceptable thing to do would be to state that you don't like it and move on. You will never convince me, or anyone else for that matter, that we are somehow wrong in liking JRPGs or whatever else it is some of you rail against given any opportunity. Knowing this, why do you feel the need to preach to us in nearly every fucking thread? An opinion CANNOT be wrong, no matter how much you want to beleive it so.

Arcanum’s story is excellent…and very original in many areas. The only thing that bothered me sometimes was the combat. I know I disliked the fast real time combat at first, so I switched it over to more of a Fallout-style turn-based. I think I went back and forth until I found a happy medium.

I got very far into the game…I loved it that much. The setting is very interesting and there are so many ways you can build your character…it’s almost uncanny the depth of customization. However, I got to an integral part of the game just as I was going back to college (I received the game for Xmas, during winter break) and life picked up steam as it always does—women, beer, studies, delinquent behavior—so I ended up dropping it. I reactivated my save about a year later but was totally lost story-wise, and I couldn’t get back into it.

Anyway, great game. I recommend it for any fan of the old Black Isle or Bioware games. Too bad they don’t make them like this anymore.

(Hey, did you ever read Hyperion that I recommended? I know you played Nocturne and liked it for a while. Just want to make sure my recommendations are pleasing people :) )

[Rakael]

Anyway, great game. I recommend it for any fan of the old Black Isle or Bioware games. Too bad they don’t make them like this anymore.

(Hey, did you ever read Hyperion that I recommended? I know you played Nocturne and liked it for a while. Just want to make sure my recommendations are pleasing people :) )

I agree that they don't make games like they used to. I will give this another shot whenever I get the chance. Hell, my wimpy ass laptop should be able to run it. Computer RPG gaming in the bed...that just sounds awesome.

As to Hyperion, I haven't gotten it yet. There is not a single copy in this town oddly enough, and that got me pretty peeved considering I checked five different book stores, two of them major chains. I kinda pushed it to the back of my mind after all that hassle and subsequent let-down of not being able to read it that day. I'm going to have Books a Million order it soon, probably today since its now fresh on my mind.

Nocturne, I loved it up until I realized that to beat it I would pretty much have to relinquish my sanity. The storyline is awesome, but the game just gets to be entirely too damned hard. I think I'll just pick up Digital Devil Saga and beat that one to make up for it, since I have heard from you guys that its a much better game when it comes to preserving sanity and PS2 controllers.

So yeah, I be plenty pleased with those recommendations. :)

[Serapth]

I for one could not give a flying fuck or a rolling donut if you people like, hate, will buy, will boycott, or anything else having to do with FFXII personally. Argue about it all you want, I will still be buying it. Not only that, but millions of others across the globe will as well.

Sheep say "Baaaaah".

[Kelegacy]

I agree that they don't make games like they used to. I will give this another shot whenever I get the chance. Hell, my wimpy ass laptop should be able to run it. Computer RPG gaming in the bed...that just sounds awesome.

As to Hyperion, I haven't gotten it yet. There is not a single copy in this town oddly enough, and that got me pretty peeved considering I checked five different book stores, two of them major chains. I kinda pushed it to the back of my mind after all that hassle and subsequent let-down of not being able to read it that day. I'm going to have Books a Million order it soon, probably today since its now fresh on my mind.

Nocturne, I loved it up until I realized that to beat it I would pretty much have to relinquish my sanity. The storyline is awesome, but the game just gets to be entirely too damned hard. I think I'll just pick up Digital Devil Saga and beat that one to make up for it, since I have heard from you guys that its a much better game when it comes to preserving sanity and PS2 controllers.

So yeah, I be plenty pleased with those recommendations. :)

I only played Nocturne for 10 hours before I found that I would end up going bald and gray if I continued on. FAQ's aren't enough...I might give it another go if i can cheat with a Gameshark or something. I have NEVER done that with a game, but Nocturne has so much promise that I want to keep going

And Hyperion...I'm a bargain book bum sometimes, and if I see a used copy laying around I'll pick it up and media mail it to you. I'd send mine but I baby my books--I can't lend out my personal collection for fear of a crease. Sometimes I find myself buying whole series of books I love even if I already own them because they make great gifts. I gave my first college roommate books 1-7, used, of the Wheel of Time for Christmas and he was hooked. At the time, I think that was the entire series.

You can never own too many copies of amazing books.

[Wasson_]

You know...I was just thinking.

Why the FF games even called RPG's? Just because the incorporate lvling, status screen and an item inventory? You don't play the role of your own character, it's just the same lame-O average Middle of the road hero guy (Tidus & Cloud are both EXTREMEY guility of this cliche- Naturally Tidus is worse simply because he looks so...GAY.) who meets people of other strenghts (and most likly a woman) as the story progresses. They are just Pagentry filled, Story Games. Tradionally the Japanese like lots of pagentry and showyness in their entertainment. The reason the characters all seem the same and storys seem to be blending together is simply because they also love sequals and Square seems to know how to hold onto a fanbase...albiet a rabid, insane fanbase.

I'm not saying that I dislike the FF games as a whole, I just don't particularly have any real experiance playing any of them. I agree with the people who say Square hasn't made anything interisting lately, (this definitly includes that lame, boaring turd of a movie "Advent Children"). The last really cool games they made went by the names "Vagrent Story" and "Final Fantasy Tactics"

[Borys]

Arcanum was an overnerded, boring piece of shit.

I tried to get into this game but I just couldn't (insert obligatory: yes, I finished all IE games, both Fallouts etc.).

It was even more boring that Planescape: Borement.

[bean19]

Arcanum was an overnerded, boring piece of shit.

I tried to get into this game but I just couldn't (insert obligatory: yes, I finished all IE games, both Fallouts etc.).

It was even more boring that Planescape: Borement.

I wish I still owned this and could give it another shot. I remember it being really hard on my machine despite having very tame graphics and gameplay. You moved around a lot and everything had a load screen.

Oh well.

[Kelegacy]

Arcanum was an overnerded, boring piece of shit.

I tried to get into this game but I just couldn't (insert obligatory: yes, I finished all IE games, both Fallouts etc.).

It was even more boring that Planescape: Borement.
Wh-wh....WHAT?!? Didn't like Planescape: Torment? That is CRPG blasphemy!

[Rakael]

I gotta jump on the Planescape: Torment bandwagon here, as I frickin loved that game.

I know what you mean about books Kel; mine are treated the same way. I appreciate the offer on the bargain book as well, though I placed the order today and it should be at the store in a few days.

Also, that reminded me about that Phoenix Wright idea I had a while back. I went to pick it up the day I posted that, and where there had been about seven copies the week before, there were none. So, I unfortunately don't have a copy to share with the other suckers who missed that gem.

Oh, almost forgot Seraph. To start, you have no idea of my reasons for buying the game. You have no idea of how many FF's I have even played before, or finished for that matter. You don't know how much money I make, and thusly have to spend on a game that should be at least mildly entertaining. You don't even know if I like the games, or will be buying it to make the wife happy. If the point of this is eluding you, it's that you have no fucking clue who I am, my personal tastes, or anything else about me. You also have no clue about the millions of others who will be buying this game whether you like it or not. So in light of this revelation, I hope you understand that your snide little comments about myself and the others being sheep, because we buy a game that you don't happen to like, are in all actuality fucking retarded. Grow up.

Why people feel the need to criticize the tastes, gaming or otherwise, of others is beyond me.

[Zeal]

I can't believe I just paid $100 to import this shit.

[Serapth]

Oh, almost forgot Seraph. To start, you have no idea of my reasons for buying the game. You have no idea of how many FF's I have even played before, or finished for that matter. You don't know how much money I make, and thusly have to spend on a game that should be at least mildly entertaining. You don't even know if I like the games, or will be buying it to make the wife happy. If the point of this is eluding you, it's that you have no fucking clue who I am, my personal tastes, or anything else about me. You also have no clue about the millions of others who will be buying this game whether you like it or not. So in light of this revelation, I hope you understand that your snide little comments about myself and the others being sheep, because we buy a game that you don't happen to like, are in all actuality fucking retarded. Grow up.

Haha.. first of, you its Serapth, but im guessing you dont care ;)

Anyways... you know what, I dont know what you make, or your reasons behind buying the game, or whatever else. But I stand by my comment, and will continue to stand by my comment. You said this:

Argue about it all you want, I will still be buying it. Not only that, but millions of others across the globe will as well.

Thats why I called you ( and millions others I dont know fuck all about, as imature as I am, apparantly ) a sheep. No more then the bashers in this thread know that the game is gonnna blow, do you know its going to rule. But, you , sight unseen, have already pledged to buy it. Sorry, but anyone speaking in such absolutes about a product you havent seen yet... sorry but that fringes on both fanboyish and sheepish behavour... regardless to the product in question.

So, in summary, I dont need to give a shit about you or know anything about you, your words already tell me enough in this situation.

It would be kinda like me saying, IM VOTING DEMOCRAT, regradless to the fact I dont know who the candidate is yet. Any yes, had I said that, I would be a sheep too.

[Kelegacy]

Haha.. first of, you its Serapth, but im guessing you dont care ;)

Anyways... you know what, I dont know what you make, or your reasons behind buying the game, or whatever else. But I stand by my comment, and will continue to stand by my comment. You said this:



Thats why I called you ( and millions others I dont know fuck all about, as imature as I am, apparantly ) a sheep. No more then the bashers in this thread know that the game is gonnna blow, do you know its going to rule. But, you , sight unseen, have already pledged to buy it. Sorry, but anyone speaking in such absolutes about a product you havent seen yet... sorry but that fringes on both fanboyish and sheepish behavour... regardless to the product in question.

So, in summary, I dont need to give a shit about you or know anything about you, your words already tell me enough in this situation.

It would be kinda like me saying, IM VOTING DEMOCRAT, regradless to the fact I dont know who the candidate is yet. Any yes, had I said that, I would be a sheep too.

Didn't you buy an Xbox 360 based on the fun the Xbox gave you? Rakael, as is the case with millions of the rest of us, will buy FFXII because of the fun we've had with past Final Fantasy games. That's not being a sheep, that is following the curve of success and enjoyment. We are already pledged to buy it because the others were that good. Just like everyone who bought (and preordered) Halo 2; the first made them want the second.

Doesn't that make more sense than calling someone a sheep?

[bean19]

I can't believe I just paid $100 to import this shit.

Pray tell us, why?

[Spigot]

I gotta jump on the Planescape: Torment bandwagon here, as I frickin loved that game.

I know what you mean about books Kel; mine are treated the same way. I appreciate the offer on the bargain book as well, though I placed the order today and it should be at the store in a few days.

Why people feel the need to criticize the tastes, gaming or otherwise, of others is beyond me.
Planescape was awesome. Of course, I was a huge fan of the setting from the PnP games, but the game was just so great in all respects.

I think I might have an old copy of Hyperion around here... if not Hyperion, I definately have at least one of the books from the Hyperion/Endymion saga kicking around... If Kel can't send it, and your order never shows up, I'll see what I can do.

People criticize others' tastes because they can. I just wish they wouldn't beat the horses until they're beyond dead and are approaching the tomato paste stage. I do find it funny when people spend so much time and effort bitching and moaning about a game they supposedly hate with every fibre of their being. You don't see me going to the Madden or <insert random sports game> here threads and spending 18 posts telling people how much football sucks.

But what can you do?

[Spigot]

I can't believe I just paid $100 to import this shit.
And this is what I'm talking about. If you hate it so much (and this is before you even play it), WHY ON GOD'S GREEN AND VERDANT EARTH DO YOU SPEND $100 TO IMPORT IT?!?

It must be some kind of really wierd financial masochism that drives people like Zeal to do the things they do. But at least he's getting the game so he can play it, hate it and actually have some empirical evidence as to how much it supposedly sucks than the people who just blast it out of hand.

Wow. I somehow went from ripping on Zeal to holding him up as some kind of good example of constructive criticism. That's not what I meant to do...

[Stormwatcher]

Planescape rocks, and Skies of Arcadia is my favorite JRPG ever. But putting them together in the same sentence makes no sense, because Planescape's plot and writting really proves that JRPGs plot and writting are lame. Nevertheless, I like them suckers.

[KamaItachi]

I can't believe I just paid $100 to import this shit.

So you just paid a huge amount extra to play a game you won't understand, which you're determined will suck and just criticised a magazine that gave it good scores as "The most biased piece of shit in the industry"?

You are one in a million, sir.

[Spigot]

You are one in a million, sir.
That he most definately is.

[Zeal]

Well, I've imported every FF before this one, so why not. Besides, first hand experiences always take precedence over the 'reviews' of others. The only way to form a valid opinion of something is to experience it yourself.

And if there's one thing I've learned the hard way, it's that you can never trust the impressions of others, especially videogame magazines.

[Spigot]

Well, I've imported every FF before this one, so why not. Besides, first hand experiences always take precedence over the 'reviews' of others. The only way to form a valid opinion of something is to experience it yourself.
I do agree that I'd rather play a game than read reviews. I never read reviews of FF games as I know that most critics are either gushing FF fanbois or else think that the series is spawned from the bowels of hell. I know that I tend to enjoy every iteration of the series (some more than others) so I'll buy them sight unseen. If XII happens to be the game that makes me want to never buy a FF game again, so be it. That said, I'll wait till I get my hands on it before I pass judgement.

You seem to have passed judgement before playing it though, thereby violating your own little declaration. Why not wait until the cheaper NA release? That's what's confusing us. You already seem predisposed to loathing FFXII yet you are willing to fork over a large amount of cash for it. Now, if you can read and understand Japanese, that makes some sense as you could compare the translations.

If you can't understand Japanese though...

[Zeal]

My little judegment comes from the fact that the past few FFs have been absolute garbage. FFX might as well have been called MTV: The Game.

FFIV, FFVI, FFVII and even VIII (my second favorite) can be considered modern masterpieces of game development. To turn around and release shit like FFX2 is nothing less than insulting.

Much like everyone else here, I used to be a diehard Square fan. That ended as soon as Sakaguchi decided to flush his legacy down the crapper.

Give me a new Chrono Trigger. Have it designed, directed and produced by Masato Kato, with music by Yasuroni Mitsuda. If this can be agreed upon, Square and I can be friends once again.

Look at my screen name. Need I say more.

[Spigot]

Must... Resist... Urge... To... Agree... With... Zeal...

I guess I just don't feel as passionately about how bad the last couple FF's have been. FFIX was, to me, a nice tip-o-the-hat to FF fans from the NES/SNES days as it really had a more nostalgic feel to it. I liked FFX, although it isn't in my top 3 of the FF pantheon. It's nice to see that you are one of the few (like myself) who actually enjoyed FFVIII.

I do agree with you about FFX-2. It was rather pointless and while pretty to look at, is basically an excuse to watch the pretty girls change their clothes for 50 hours. It's a game I don't concider to be in the true FF lineage (much like FF: Crystal Chronicles or FF: Mystic Adventure).

And I am right with you about a new Chrono Trigger. Or even just a decent update for the DS a la the FFIV Advance remake. I haven't heard much about ChronoBreak, assuming it's even still in production, and Chrono Cross left a bit to be desired.

All that said, you still haven't answered the million dollar question, which is why you are spending $100 to import FFXII given that:
Much like everyone else here, I used to be a diehard Square fan. That ended as soon as Sakaguchi decided to flush his legacy down the crapper.

[ElPresidente]

FFX made my eyes bleed.

While I missed IX (Which apparently is a bad move on my part :P) I loved all of the others. I was a late PS2 buyer (bought it around the same time as San Andreas' release, I'd already bought the GCN and XBox at launch) and one of the first games I wanted to play was FFX. I was very very dissapointed. Square haven't totally stung me yet (I never played The Bouncer :D) so as I said earlier I'll give XII a shot but X... eugh.

[Rakael]

Shit, SerapTh it is then. Must be a fitABITS kinda thing.

[overdrivechao]

FFXII actually scored a 5/40, due to its character designs.

i can make up numbers too!! 57!!