Natal = 100ms of Lag

[Evil Avatar]

GamesIndustry.biz is reporting on the removal a hardware chip (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/microsoft-drops-internal-natal-chip_1) in Natal and MS moving that hardware over onto the Xbox 360 as a software solution, but they further confirm that the hardware still suffers from significant lag.

However, development sources have indicated to GamesIndustry.biz that the change doesn't have an effect on the existing system lag of about 100ms, while a software solution should enable Microsoft to update the system more quickly and regularly than a hardware solution, meanwhile hitting a previously-speculated price point of sub-USD 50/GBP 50 - although this price rumour has already been scotched by Microsoft's Neil Thompson.

The load previously handled by the chip now falls on one of the main three Xenon processors, but while taking a "percentage" of performance away from the system, most games don't use up 100 per cent of the available processing power anyway.

Double ouch. That sounds like so much lag that the hardware is basically worthless for playing many (any) games.

[Salesmunn]

I have no interested in Natal but, it's still too early to tell how much lag there will be.

Even so, this sort of tech always has had lag in the past. It won't be instantaneous.

[Johan]

For competitive purposes, what would be considered a tolerable level of lag? Not being competitive, I have no idea. 50ms? 25ms?

[PopoWRX]

For competitive purposes, what would be considered a tolerable level of lag? Not being competitive, I have no idea. 50ms? 25ms?

I find <50ms good enough. But I'm not hyper competitive. Depends on the game of course.

[pwnophobia]

I'll reserve judgment until I try the system out.

[Johan]

I'll reserve judgment until I try the system out.

That's absolutely no fun whatsoever! ;)

"Natal is a POS that will fail and ruin MS!"
"Natal is miraculous and will revolutionize gaming!"

Rabid hypothesizing is more entertaining.

[pwnophobia]

"Natal is miraculous and will revolutionize gaming!"

Rabid hypothesizing is more entertaining.

Sorry, let me try this again....

I think Natal will be fun if utilized correctly such as the Wii controls were in New Super Mario Bros Wii. They didn't detract from the game, added little interaction but allowed for more control of the environment with less buttons added to the controller.

[Franjo]

I'll always stick to a controller. No motion for me, I get my workout at the gym and don't need it on my couch.

So take people like me, and the millions of lazy people in the world...we won't be buying this.

[Kweli]

isnt 100ms = 1 second?
Whats the conversion here?

[shadow763]

When I think of Natal I just think of that ball game they showed where you hit the balls back with your limbs. It worked OK and look rather boring. Kind of my interpretation of the Natal experience overall.

[Kweli]

1,000 milliseconds makes up one second.

So this lags by 10% of one second, or .1 of a second

[NingTang]

It will depend what kind of game uses Natal (obviously?)... An adventure game or rpg could be spectacular with Natal's controls (milo demo?)... but an FPS? Don't think so...

[Demo_Boy]

I think this could be useful for controls that are awkward in tandem with a regular controller.
Like leaning to see around a corner would be a lot more natural via camera input. As long as you dont have to get out of your chair to do it.

[wiredInsanity]

OnLive demonstrates that 30ms is ideal for having non-perceptible lag between making an action and seeing the action performed on screen. Maybe the brain could adjust to the 100ms lag, but ultimately, it just does not seem low enough for true precision.

[scott topic]

i am decidedly not excited about natal. i hope that microsoft isn't putting too many eggs in this particular basket, in case it turns out to be a flop.

[Anenome]

Lag doesn't feel truly sluggish until about 200ms. But, an ideal lag is more like 50ms. 100ms might not feel that bad. And the fact that they've achieved 100ms a year before launch in version 1 is at least somewhat promising. If removing the intelligence chip is what caused this lag they need to rethink that, because adding lag can turn an expensive but fun product into a worthless product.

[MattyinAK]

I suspect that the real "value" of Natal will be for something other than gaming. If what I have been reading about the Wii attach rates is accurate - it seems like the potential of "motion gaming" is still unrealized - and I'm not sure Natal is the cure for that. (Although the idea of "motion gaming" does seem to be selling a lot of Wii consoles :) )

I've always been of the opinion that the real purpose of the original XBox was to get MS into the living room (they bought WebTV (or some iteration of it) for the same purpose but it was a dismal failure IIRC). For years they have been dying to get in the living room and connected to the TV and now they are - but I am not so sure that they care as much about the gaming aspect as they do the rest of the picture - beyond the fact that it was an acceptable "portal" to getting into that space.

Lots of non gaming stuff is getting added to XBL - and the target of that content seems to be more non-gaming entertainment and social applications. Could be that Natal on the gaming front will never be more than a "gimmick" but that they are positioning it to enhance other services. One of those early videos did spend a good deal of time playing up the social and e-commerce aspects of Natal.

Or I could be wickedly off base...certainly wouldn't be the first time. :p

[brandonjclark]

I suspect that the real "value" of Natal will be for something other than gaming. If what I have been reading about the Wii attach rates is accurate - it seems like the potential of "motion gaming" is still unrealized - and I'm not sure Natal is the cure for that. (Although the idea of "motion gaming" does seem to be selling a lot of Wii consoles :) )

I've always been of the opinion that the real purpose of the original XBox was to get MS into the living room (they bought WebTV (or some iteration of it) for the same purpose but it was a dismal failure IIRC). For years they have been dying to get in the living room and connected to the TV and now they are - but I am not so sure that they care as much about the gaming aspect as they do the rest of the picture - beyond the fact that it was an acceptable "portal" to getting into that space.

Lots of non gaming stuff is getting added to XBL - and the target of that content seems to be more non-gaming entertainment and social applications. Could be that Natal on the gaming front will never be more than a "gimmick" but that they are positioning it to enhance other services. One of those early videos did spend a good deal of time playing up the social and e-commerce aspects of Natal.

Or I could be wickedly off base...certainly wouldn't be the first time. :p


Hi Matty, welcome aboard! While I agree that it has been one of Microsoft's goals to "get in the living room" for a long time, it just doesn't seem like they're doing enough with Natal to push it as a factor. My desire to have motion controls for Window Media Center is a big thing(dammit), so why is it only gamers who have been hearing about Natal? Why isn't Microsoft letting the whole world know about it because if it can do what that demo did in E3, it'd be earth shattering.

The answer, is that it can't. At least not right now.

[Froggy]

Watch in awe as your character does exactly what you do... slightly later.

[Trickyicky]

The way I see Natal in a way that's integrated in to the kinds games we already love, instead of purely Natal-based control schemes would be like this:

Say you bring up your inventory in Dead Space or Resident Evil. You don't use your controller to cycle through it, you can actually lift your hand in the air and equip/organize/manipulate your inventory by using your hands. This is one of those things that could be more efficient than using a controller.

Also, as Demo Boy suggested, stuff like leaning around a corner would be perfect. What I want isn't a completely movement-based control scheme, I want something that adds a new dimension to the already competent controller system.

[snubber]

1,000 milliseconds makes up one second.

So this lags by 10% of one second, or .1 of a second

Excellent work! Now go work on your times tables.

[Anenome]

Matty: Yes, MS wants to control the living room. That's why the Media-center PC exists. Even more surprising to me is that it's been fairly successful.

But, MS's ambitions to be in that spot ran up directly against Sony's stated ambition to take over the living room in a similar fashion. However, Sony's not a software company and they were at an innate disadvantage.

MS countered them by creating the Xbox and now GFWL.

Sony, not being software based, decided they could win the living-room war by making the ultimate hardware, and with their popularity at incredible heights at the end of the PS3 era, they felt sure they were about to pull it off--and they created the PS3.

Well, we all know how that ended.

[ElektroDragon]

The way I see Natal in a way that's integrated in to the kinds games we already love, instead of purely Natal-based control schemes would be like this:

Say you bring up your inventory in Dead Space or Resident Evil. You don't use your controller to cycle through it, you can actually lift your hand in the air and equip/organize/manipulate your inventory by using your hands. This is one of those things that could be more efficient than using a controller.


Exactly! Combine it with the new breed of 3D TVs, and you will have, essentially, Minority Report brought to life.

[Grumsh]

isnt 100ms = 1 second?
Whats the conversion here?

The SI base unit for time is the second. 1 second is equal to 1000 milliseconds.

[Johan]

Watch in awe as your character does exactly what you do... slightly later.

You owe me a new keyboard...and router. I made a mess laughing. :D

[Anenome]

Exactly! Combine it with the new breed of 3D TVs, and you will have, essentially, Minority Report brought to life.

Yep, killer app. In fact, a mystery story ala the Blade Runner game might be a killer app for Natal, allowing you to walk around in a 3D environment and actually pickup objects, turn them around in your virtual hand, look at the bottom, see what's written on the back of a photograph, etc. That could be a blockbuster Natal game, and a real differentiating game-changer, because that would at the same time be quite difficult for the other motion-systems to replicate.

[serioustommy]

The Wiimote's lag is terrible, and I don't see anyone complaining about that.

[Furious Wang]

100 ms isn't really game breaking for any genre. The Hardcore gaming elite might bitch about it, but it won't affect 99% of the users. That said, I still think this is Microsoft's Virtual Boy. Destined for failure.

[Anenome]

100 ms isn't really game breaking for any genre. The Hardcore gaming elite might bitch about it, but it won't affect 99% of the users. That said, I still think this is Microsoft's Virtual Boy. Destined for failure.

I find your lack of faith disturbing.
6p4T7_XI7WM

[Vandenh]

I find <50ms good enough. But I'm not hyper competitive. Depends on the game of course.

FYI Halo and Cod4 have 100ms input lag and Killzone has 250ms. There are tools for measuring input lag.

[blackzc]

I find your lack of faith disturbing.
6p4T7_XI7WM

So your saying that the force has about the same lag as natal?

[modeps]

Remember, this is a native lag of 100ms with Natal, it may be 1:1 (or may not be) but it's a delay... locally. Your movements aren't translated on screen for .1 second. Therefore, if you add any networking into this thing to play games online? Add another 100+ ms to that... It'll start to get significant. Playing L4D2 with a 200ms lag is kind of shitty.

Oh, and it's still several months away from release and they've stated they are still revising and programming. There's a good chance this could be improved. Actually, that's a GOOD thing from moving the "brain" of Natal into software... Easier to improve functionality and performance.

[Anenome]

So your saying that the force has about the same lag as natal?
Yep, you got it. Force lag is the #1 reason why Jedi fall in combat. Some nerf-herder pulls out a blaster and gets a shot off within that .1 second window and you're nothin' but bantha fodder.

[Pnikosis]

I still remember playing Counterstrike with 200ms of lag with my dia-up connection. And that was in the best cases.

And I had a lot of fun back then.

[Phinor]

People are talking different things here. Playing a game online with a latency of 100 or 200ms is vastly different to actual input latency. Any decent online game allows you to control your character locally, submitting data to the server which in turn sends you data. The key here is, you still control your character locally.

One of my monitors has a measured input latency of around 40-50ms (can't remember the exact number, it's an old monitor.. HP F2105) and it's completely useless for games. Absolutely unplayable. At best you can check auction house in an MMO but that's pretty much it. Monitor input latency is closer to what the Natal latency is. You do something and it doesn't happen instantly on your screen. It's not only annoying, it means you can't do anything that requires precision whether it's a game or something else. Now some games don't require precision and that's fine. That's what Wii is for and if Natal doesn't improve, the same applies. I guess it's not a big deal for either MS or the masses, it just means you won't see Natal attached to any "hardcore" games, if you will.

On that note, someone mentioned that Halo and CoD4 have input latency of around 100ms (and Killzone 250ms? :O ). I'd like to see that article just out of curiousity and how they did their test. Probably with CRT monitors.. but still, I'd like to read it :)

[Anenome]

The usual method for measuring input lag is to setup a camera rig with a modified controller.

You rig the controller to activate an LED at the exact moment the button is pressed, there's no lag on the LED. Then you trigger, say, a shoot button, and have the controller in frame with the game in the background and by analyzing frame by frame you can get a rather exact measure of input lag on a game.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-lag-factor-article
http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/09/09/06/1640218/Measuring-Input-Latency-In-Console-Games?from=rss
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3725/measuring_responsiveness_in_video_.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag

[Metal Khaos]

Now all this coupled with 3D

[Phinor]

The usual method for measuring input lag is to setup a camera rig with a modified controller.
*clip*


Ah, obviously people were talking about console games running at low fps at that. I can see some serious latency issues there. And of course you get used to latency much like many PC gamers were saying 200ms is fine 10 years ago with modems but when they first got to play with less than 20ms, there was literally no going back. Obviously a different scenario since it's not input latency but still. I'm only interested in PC gaming though so I'd like to see some input latency tests on PC games running at solid 60fps. And maybe something like Crysis (Wars) running at fluctuating 30-50fps which is what most of us get in that game nowadays. Oh and sim racing games like iRacing where input latency means maybe more than in any other genre.

I did notice the other day that Red Faction Guerrilla had terrrrible input problems both in latency and accuracy. The PC port is simply abysmal but I guess it's no better on consoles if it's not a solid 60 title? Ruined the game for me. Well that and the simple game mechanics straight from the 90s but that's another story.

[DiscoTex]

100ms seems like an awful lot to me. I see a lot of people comparing this to network latency, which is a bit different. Developers can do all sorts of things to smooth the net latency so you don't notice it so much.

For me, when my games get below about 30fps (about 33ms per frame), the control starts feeling imprecise and cumbersome. I think that 3 times that pretty much rules out any games that require fast and precise input.

[asdfffdsa]

I was never a believer of all the Natal hype (which, of course, essentially got me labeled a party-pooper and negative nancy), and when I heard the "15% of computational resources", it was laughable.

... But 100ms lag time?

With all the ill deeds Microsoft is guilty of, I never thought I would be capable of feeling pity for them or any of their divisions. But this ... this is just sad.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

Damn, this lag will ruin the revolutionary Cup n Ball game they were working on!

[Anenome]

100ms really isn't that much.

Comparison's of milliseconds to real world events (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_E-1_s):
- 1 millisecond – duration of light for typical photo flash strobe
- 1.000692286 milliseconds – time taken for light to travel 300 km in a vacuum
- 2 milliseconds – the amount the length of the day increases per day per century as a result of tidal friction from the Moon
- 3 milliseconds – a housefly's wing flap
- 5 milliseconds – a honey bee's wing flap
- 8 milliseconds – 1/125 of a second (125), a standard camera shutter speed
- 11 milliseconds - the latency on a spektrum Dx7SE radio
- 33.3 milliseconds – the amount of time one frame lasts in 30fps video
- 50 milliseconds – cycle time for the lowest audible tone, 20 Hz
- 62.5 milliseconds - a sixty-fourth note at MM = 60
- 100 milliseconds – the reaction speed of a human
- 134 milliseconds – time taken by light to travel around the earth's equator
- 200 milliseconds – the time it takes the human brain to recognize emotion in facial expressions
- 250 milliseconds – a sixteenth note at MM = 60
- 430 to 500 milliseconds – common modern dance music tempos (120 - 140 BPM)
- 300 to 400 milliseconds – the blink of a human eye
- 400 milliseconds – time in which the fastest baseball pitches reach the strike zone
- 500 milliseconds – an eighth note at MM = 60
- 1 second – the second is the metric standard unit for time
- 1.26 seconds – approximate time it takes light to travel between Earth and the Moon

[asdfffdsa]

If you really don't think 100ms is that much, try playing an online multiplayer game with client-side prediction off. Even 25ms is near unplayable with client-side prediction off.

[Anenome]

If you really don't think 100ms is that much, try playing an online multiplayer game with client-side prediction off. Even 25ms is near unplayable with client-side prediction off.
You're confusing client-side lag with lag in an online game. Each has its own considerations.

You could have client-lag of 100ms together with 10ms online MP lag, and your online experience would be fine as long as your client-side lag is tolerable. 100ms is fairly tolerable client-side.

[Vandenh]

On that note, someone mentioned that Halo and CoD4 have input latency of around 100ms (and Killzone 250ms? :O ). I'd like to see that article just out of curiousity and how they did their test. Probably with CRT monitors.. but still, I'd like to read it :)

Look up Digital Foundry, I don't have the link right now and I am using my mobile to write this :(

[Vandenh]

Here it is: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-lag-factor-article

[Anenome]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-lag-factor-article

Gotcha there, chief ^_~ It's all good ;)

[Morratut]

I have no interest in natal. Joypad or mouse/keyboard please.

[Phinor]

Look up Digital Foundry, I don't have the link right now and I am using my mobile to write this :(

Yep, it was linked earlier after I queried about it but I was looking for PC results, not console (with 30fps limits and such). As they said in Slashdot: "It's fair to say that players today have become conditioned to what the truly hardcore PC gamers would consider to be almost unacceptably high levels of latency"

I don't consider console (fps) games of much value, PC is where it's at and I'd like to see the latency on various PC games with solid 60 fps. For example Counter-Strike vs. Counter-Strike: Source might be fun because Source feels very sluggish after you play the original. HL2 engine isn't as responsive as the original Half-Life engine. But I'd like to see the difference in raw numbers rather than gut feeling.

[bickle]

I call BS. From the videos that I've seen, the on screen movement lags significantly more than 100ms. It was at least half a second.

[Anenome]

I call BS. From the videos that I've seen, the on screen movement lags significantly more than 100ms. It was at least half a second.
Are you talking about the cellphone footage we saw that was shot at some 10 frames per second? I wouldn't rely on that.

[LobsterMobster]

Wow. Another overhyped $50 camera peripheral fails to change the universe? SHOCKING.

[Anenome]

Wow. Another overhyped $50 camera peripheral fails to change the universe? SHOCKING.
Come back after it's actually released.

[Vandenh]

Yep, it was linked earlier after I queried about it but I was looking for PC results, not console (with 30fps limits and such). As they said in Slashdot: "It's fair to say that players today have become conditioned to what the truly hardcore PC gamers would consider to be almost unacceptably high levels of latency"

I don't consider console (fps) games of much value, PC is where it's at and I'd like to see the latency on various PC games with solid 60 fps. For example Counter-Strike vs. Counter-Strike: Source might be fun because Source feels very sluggish after you play the original. HL2 engine isn't as responsive as the original Half-Life engine. But I'd like to see the difference in raw numbers rather than gut feeling.

Well if Natal is released on PC it might have near zero lag as well.

[Zeal]

i'm telling you, no one is going to use this crap. wii is already dead.

the gimmick gets old fast.

[Anenome]

Wii was flawed, everyone knows that. But Motion+ fixes what sucked about the Wii.

Head-tracking will further fix what was missing, and allow the creation of apprent 3D on non-3D televisions.

3D-gaming will then emerge along with 3D TVs and at that point a 1:1, z-tracking (that is, distance from screen) motion-input system will be a requirement, as 3D games virtually require a 3D input method.

Certainly 3D PC applications are already coming to the fore and being used. Artists are sculpting polygon models on 3D sets. Architects are viewing layouts of the building they design with it. Medical students are exploring virtual brains and performing mock-surgery with it. In fact, medical applications of precision motion-control + haptics will eventually allow remote surgery to become common.

But, some people don't recognize a sea-change when they are in the middle of it--not unusual. Motion control will capture the industry, hell it already has.

[Venkman]

Watch in awe as your character does exactly what you do... slightly later.

I imagine they're going to have to put bullet time into everything to allow you to react with any accuracy.

[Anenome]

I imagine they're going to have to put bullet time into everything to allow you to react with any accuracy.

Why couldn't you have a game entirely in bullet-time:

"Super Slothman to the Rescue!"

[Venkman]

Why couldn't you have a game entirely in bullet-time:

"Super Slothman to the Rescue!"


He's so fast, that everything seems slow to him!



BTW- to other posters- ever try playing DDR with 100 ms lag? It's really hard to do. ;)

[Vandenh]

He's so fast, that everything seems slow to him!



BTW- to other posters- ever try playing DDR with 100 ms lag? It's really hard to do. ;)

Ever try reading the above posters? EVERY console game has at least 100 ms input lag.

[murpes]

Yep, killer app. In fact, a mystery story ala the Blade Runner game might be a killer app for Natal, allowing you to walk around in a 3D environment and actually pickup objects, turn them around in your virtual hand, look at the bottom, see what's written on the back of a photograph, etc. That could be a blockbuster Natal game, and a real differentiating game-changer, because that would at the same time be quite difficult for the other motion-systems to replicate.

Hot damn! Maybe we'll have the long-awaited Trespasser (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uz5lUQ_P5Yc&feature=related) remake! :D

[saulob]

isnt 100ms = 1 second?
Whats the conversion here?

No no.

1000ms = 1 second

It's not even 1 second. I don't see a problem.

[Anenome]

Hot damn! Maybe we'll have the long-awaited Trespasser (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uz5lUQ_P5Yc&feature=related) remake! :D

WTF...

25 seconds in, you will lol. Never seen that particular angle in a game before.

uz5lUQ_P5Yc

[murpes]

WTF...

25 seconds in, you will lol. Never seen that particular angle in a game before.



I'm not making this up: that heart tattoo on her left boob is the health meter!

[Anenome]

I'm not making this up: that heart tattoo on her left boob is the health meter!

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/4/19/128846758935052566.jpg

[Venkman]

Ever try reading the above posters? EVERY console game has at least 100 ms input lag.

You're making that up. :p

[Anenome]

You're making that up. :p
He might be subtly referring to the fact that human reaction speed is 100ms :P

[pwnophobia]

If Natal came out for $50 with a game you'd be lying to yourself if you said you wouldn't pick it up.

[Kweli]

If Natal came out for $50 with a game you'd be lying to yourself if you said you wouldn't pick it up.

I find that price tag unrealistic considering how much they charge for every other peripheral

[pwnophobia]

I find that price tag unrealistic considering how much they charge for every other peripheral

You (people, including me) pay $60 for a game. Assuming Natal came with a game, though it probably won't, why would you not pay $50 for it? I know a lot of people don't want any kind of motions controls but I'd pay $50 to play with it and have the possibility of some neat things coming with it. Hell I paid $200 for a Wii and have only played a handful of games on it, the Natal would seem to be a much better investment.

[Samstag]

I find that price tag unrealistic considering how much they charge for every other peripheral

Hard drives and wireless adaptors are expensive because they know you want them bad. Natal will be more reasonable because it's Microsoft that needs them to move.

[Anenome]

Natal will release for about $60, with a game. That's my prediction. You're right on, Pwn, that's simply the best way to market it. They may take a small hit on the cost of the thing, but the game itself is probably mostly already made. It will likely be a Wii-style collection of mini-games, proofs of concept made to look good.

And I wouldn't be surprised if MS pays several developers to make some great game Natal compliant that release at the same time so you have some incentive to buy it, like a new Halo or something. We know developers are working on games for it right now, after all.

[Saracen Pariah]

I don't like this Natal business, and I don't like anyone who does like it.

That will be all.

[Anenome]

I don't like this Natal business,
More importantly, why not?

Did you feel burned by the Wii? Are you assuming the Wii is as good as it gets when it comes to motion control (lol)? Etc.

I think most people are skeptical only because no killer app has arrived yet. Just as people were skeptical of 3D platform gaming until Mario64 converted the masses.

I was at E3 '95, Miyamoto was a god at that convention.

I'm not one for unreasonable optimism either, nor am I wholly sold on Natal, but I don't think it's appropriate to outright dismiss it at this point.

[Johan]

Gah! There was a lag in posting my reply to this thread, and now it's dead!

: How Natal will work in real life :

[Saracen Pariah]

More importantly, why not?

Did you feel burned by the Wii? Are you assuming the Wii is as good as it gets when it comes to motion control (lol)? Etc.

I think most people are skeptical only because no killer app has arrived yet. Just as people were skeptical of 3D platform gaming until Mario64 converted the masses.

I was at E3 '95, Miyamoto was a god at that convention.

I'm not one for unreasonable optimism either, nor am I wholly sold on Natal, but I don't think it's appropriate to outright dismiss it at this point.

Namely, the ramifications are potentially dangerous, and speak to Microsoft's clear disdain for human and pet safety.

Just imagine playing Fable 5, and you make a throwing motion at the TV. Poor Mr. Wuggies tries to go fetch it, and electrocutes himself by launching himself at high velocity into your 52" HDTV. Screw those insensitive bastards for killing my dog!




:D