Top 12 games of... The Decade?

[Grumsh]

Everyone loves a list, especially when its a list generated by reader feedback. Gamasutra is being brave and asking its readers for the top 12 games of the past decade! Here is the link for Gamasutra's Games of the Decade: Honorable Mentions (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4228/gamasutras_games_of_the_decade_.php).

Gamasutra has just completed its reader-specific Game Of The Decade vote -- allowing the game professionals reading the site to choose their best game of the last 10 years, with in-depth commentary.

Readers responded to the following question - anonymously, if they wished - naming a game released this decade for any console, handheld, PC or online platform, and why they believe it outdid any other:

"Gamasutra is asking its users to vote for their 'Game Of The Decade' -- the video game title that they think was the absolute best of the last ten years, from January 2000 to date. Name the game, and then explain why it mattered to you and what differentiates it from the multitude of others released in the last decade?"

Here is Gamasutra's Top 12 Games of the Decade (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4227/gamasutras_top_12_games_of_the_.php) winners countdown list.

There are some "given" choices there, such as Super Mario Galaxy, but I was suprised to see Mass Effect make the list. It is a great game, but I didn't expect it to make the list. I definitly disagree with the number 1 game though.

[LilBunnyFuFu]

It makes me happy to see that Vagrant Story was in the honorable mentions. It won't ever make a top 10, but I'm glad to see it get recognition. I am also ecstatic to not see a Final Fantasy game in there at all. I love them, but innovative they are not, at least not anymore.

Also, Metroid Prime and SM:G? Neither of those really did much for me. They were good, but best of the decade I have to question.

[LilBunnyFuFu]

Also, as far as the #1 pick, any game that my grandmother can identify means that it wins. She doesn't know who Mario is, but she'll raid for epic lootz at the drop of a hat.

[Nachokoolaid]

Nice list. I would have put Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory on there, but other than that, I think I agree for the most part.

[Johan]

I played four of those games. The rest, for me, were not worth the bother.

[automaton]

I think Ninja Gaiden belongs on there somewhere as being the best executed 3rd person action game. It is definitely the game I most enjoyed last decade. I mostly agree with their list even though I have not played all the games on there. Never played WoW but you can't deny its appeal/influence.

[gzsfrk]

There are some "given" choices there, such as Super Mario Galaxy, but I was suprised to see Mass Effect make the list. It is a great game, but I didn't expect it to make the list.

Super Mario Galaxy is a "given" to be on a list of the top 10 games of the last years? It's a great game, but didn't strike me as being particularly superior, at least not in the way Super Mario 64 did.

And how on EARTH could you more readily accept SMG being on the list than Mass Effect--the game which literally defined the story-driven action RPG this generation?

[Zetsuei]

I've played each game except the #1 spot. As great as the experience probably is, I will never buy into a monthly subscription fee. I do feel like it probably belongs there though. It's seated itself into the global zeitgeist, and is still immensely popular and unparalleled in user experience (from what I hear) six years after its release. The only other game I can think of that has that kind of user base this long after its inception is Counter-Strike, but that pales in comparison. I'm sure there are others, but I don't care to bother researching it.

As for the other games, Mass Effect was kind of a shock to me, but after thinking about it some more, I think it deserves a spot on the list, though probably not the spot its seated at. It's so current gen though, that I can think of a lot of other stellar games that could take its place.

[pwnophobia]

I see a lot of people mention Shadow of Colossus yet I never knew it existed until recently, I suppose I should find a copy somehow and play it?

[Ruff_Daimont]

I disagree with a lot of games on the list. I'm not saying these games are bad...I'm just saying that other games were actually better.

I can't deny however that the games mentioned on this list have all contributed greatly to the industry.

WoW on number one seems like an odd choiche but it is one of the most influencial (if not best played game ever) out there,

Ruffie

[Grumsh]

Super Mario Galaxy is a "given" to be on a list of the top 10 games of the last years? It's a great game, but didn't strike me as being particularly superior, at least not in the way Super Mario 64 did.

And how on EARTH could you more readily accept SMG being on the list than Mass Effect--the game which literally defined the story-driven action RPG this generation?

Super Mario 64 is from 1996, so it would automatically be excluded from the list (unelss you meant the DS version?). Super Mario Galaxy is the second best-selling non-bundled Wii game and the sixth best-selling Nintendo-published game for the Wii. So along those lines, no I am not surprised.

Referance Mass Effect, like I said I was surpised it made it, not I was against the inclusion. I figured the Elevator and Mako complaints would have kept it off of a "Best of Decade" list. I am not in disagreement with the decision, just thought the nay-sayers would hold it back.

[Rommel]

Shadow of the Colossus was the iffiest game on that list for me. I had no problem with any of the titles, though I would have made some changes myself. Lists of this type have been getting more respectable lately.

[vivalahazy]

Even though I've resisted the urge to play WoW I do agree and understand with it being number one in many Game of the Decade list as EDGE magazine also had it as their number one as its been a cultural phenomenon and one of the most played games ever.

I know this may cause people to thing WTF but if Wii Sports can make the list then I thin Guitar Hero or Rock Band should be in there as its brought gaming to a lot of homes that otherwise would never have considered buying a console in their life

[JazGalaxy]

Wait... OBLIVION isn't on that list?

Oblivion is easily the most important RPG of all time, up until this point. It places you in a living breathing world and says "you are there" which is, essentially, the whole point of computer role playing games. I'm not saying it's the BEST RPG ever made, but it makes good on what RPGs are supposed to be more than any other game except, arguably, Fallout 3.

[Cantatus]

Mass Effect does strike me as the oddball on that list. Just about every other game on the list either introduced something new (Portal, Wii Sports, The Sims, etc.) or really moved the genre up (Halo, Half-Life 2, etc.)

Mass Effect is great from a cinematic standpoint. Bioware really made me feel like I was playing in a sci-fi movie rather than just an RPG, but there were a lot of things that held it back. The biggest of these being the stupid, repetitive Mako areas. The game had so much going for it, that this part of the game always made me scratch my head. It's almost as if they finished the game, realized there wasn't enough content, and decided to paste in a bunch of cookie-cutter planets and interiors.

And really, Mass Effect didn't introduce a ton of new stuff. If anything, Bioware is good at gradually progressing an innovation. The Renegade/Paragon stuff is great, but it's essentially just a redone version of Jedi/Sith and Open Palm/Closed Fist (from Jade Empire).

If they were going to put an RPG on the list, Knights of the Old Republic is far more deserving as far as Bioware titles go. It had a fantastic story, is where a lot of Bioware's recognized features got their start, and it was a good Star Wars game. For that alone, it should be recognized.

[Wyrm]

Wii Sports? Seriously? That makes the list pretty much completely fucking worthless.

[Wyrm]

Wait... OBLIVION isn't on that list?

Oblivion is easily the most important RPG of all time, up until this point. It places you in a living breathing world and says "you are there" which is, essentially, the whole point of computer role playing games. I'm not saying it's the BEST RPG ever made, but it makes good on what RPGs are supposed to be more than any other game except, arguably, Fallout 3.

I disagree with you completely. An enormous "living, breathing world" doesn't mean shit when it's populated largely by the same three NPCs, trees, and an assortment of rocks.

Also, Oblivion's gameplay is worse than crap.

To this day, I still have no idea why people suck Oblivion's dick so much.

[Wyrm]

I see a lot of people mention Shadow of Colossus yet I never knew it existed until recently, I suppose I should find a copy somehow and play it?

It's one of the best PS2 games in existence. If you haven't played it, you definitely should.

[Grumsh]

It's one of the best PS2 games in existence. If you haven't played it, you definitely should.

Make sure to use a wireless controller and put pillows against the wall that is within your throwing arc...... because it will make you throw your remote at least a dozen times...

[Herald42]

Wait... OBLIVION isn't on that list?

Oblivion is easily the most important RPG of all time, up until this point. It places you in a living breathing world and says "you are there" which is, essentially, the whole point of computer role playing games. I'm not saying it's the BEST RPG ever made, but it makes good on what RPGs are supposed to be more than any other game except, arguably, Fallout 3.

Actually, that's not the point of an RPG. That's the point of a flight sim.

RPGs let you play a fleshed out character and generally give you choices other than where your stats go. Oblivion was a sword-and-magic-while-tapping-the-spacebar sim.

[JazGalaxy]

Actually, that's not the point of an RPG. That's the point of a flight sim.

RPGs let you play a fleshed out character and generally give you choices other than where your stats go. Oblivion was a sword-and-magic-while-tapping-the-spacebar sim.

um... what?

The point of real Role Playing Games... the original kind not what they've become in videogames... was to use numbers to simulate the rules that govern reality. That way, a group of people could place themselves in a fantastic situation and "role play" it out. Virtual reality.

That's exactly what Oblivion does, more than any other game up to this point.

Regardless of whether you like that kind of game or not a "flight sim" is EXACTLY a role playing game.

[Dag-Sabot]

Steel battalion wasn't on that list. Probably the best game I have ever played.

[Herald42]

um... what?

The point of real Role Playing Games... the original kind not what they've become in videogames... was to use numbers to simulate the rules that govern reality. That way, a group of people could place themselves in a fantastic situation and "role play" it out. Virtual reality.

That's exactly what Oblivion does, more than any other game up to this point.

Regardless of whether you like that kind of game or not a "flight sim" is EXACTLY a role playing game.

Really? Man. I've been playing D&D wrong all these years. Here I thought I was supposed to use dice and abstraction, not VR goggles.

RPGs are usually forthright about their abstractions, and are rather open about their existence as a game. They differ from simulations in that they present just enough of a concept of a world that it's believable in the context of the story and your character, rather than a surrogate reality that is supposedly fully immersive and includes a full system of physics and universal laws. I didn't feel connected to my character or story in either Oblivion or Fallout 3, but boy, were things sure pretty. As a sim, Bethesda titles fare well. As an RPG, I find them lacking.

[JazGalaxy]

Really? Man. I've been playing D&D wrong all these years. Here I thought I was supposed to use dice and abstraction, not VR goggles.

RPGs are usually forthright about their abstractions, and are rather open about their existence as a game. They differ from simulations in that they present just enough of a concept of a world that it's believable in the context of the story and your character, rather than a surrogate reality that is supposedly fully immersive and includes a full system of physics and universal laws. I didn't feel connected to my character or story in either Oblivion or Fallout 3, but boy, were things sure pretty. As a sim, Bethesda titles fare well. As an RPG, I find them lacking.

I completely disagree with your point, here.

What you're putting forth as what an RPG is, is exactly what people HATE about modern videogame RPGs and exactly why Oblivion is so important. RPGs are running up against a problem that I call "redundancy" where the simulation that the computer is handing vs. the simulation that the dice are handling overlap eachother and "break" the game. This occurs when, say, you are bumping up against a guy and you shoot him only to "miss". Or, when, as happened in Morrowind for a friend of mine, you are a 10 foot tall Orc with giant metal armor and a warhammer the size of a dolphin yet you have such a high sneak rating that you can sneak up on people from right in front of their face in broad daylight. People don't like SEEING something happen only for the game to say "um... you didn't see that".

[WastelandDan]

I thought Mass Effect was just utterly forgettable. Rarely have I been as disappointed with an RPG. I could even articulate my feelings and provide reasons for why I feel this way but honestly, I feel like it's not even worth the bother. The game just didn't do it for me and I regretted purchasing it.

[Herald42]

I completely disagree with your point, here.

What you're putting forth as what an RPG is, is exactly what people HATE about modern videogame RPGs and exactly why Oblivion is so important. RPGs are running up against a problem that I call "redundancy" where the simulation that the computer is handing vs. the simulation that the dice are handling overlap eachother and "break" the game. This occurs when, say, you are bumping up against a guy and you shoot him only to "miss". Or, when, as happened in Morrowind for a friend of mine, you are a 10 foot tall Orc with giant metal armor and a warhammer the size of a dolphin yet you have such a high sneak rating that you can sneak up on people from right in front of their face in broad daylight. People don't like SEEING something happen only for the game to say "um... you didn't see that".

People don't like seeing that happen in a simulation game. You are correct.

In an RPG, again, the level of abstraction is assumed. If you don't like seemingly impossible situations, I'm curious as to what tabletop RPG you were referring to in your previous post, given that I can count the systems I'm familiar with that avoid those sort of unrealistic situations (or don't explain them away with bizarre "a wizard did it" logic) on two fingers.

That is to say, they don't mechanically prevent the situation, and there are enemies that abuse fuzzy logic and abstractions to do impossible things -- the players are just kept artificially powerless, and have to fight the dangers of non-Euclidian geometry with problem solving and logic skills.

Oddly enough, Oblivion didn't even address all of the things that would bother you, as someone who wants a simulation. You could hit someone with that warhammer the size of a dolphin, and do close to nil for damage. The player, after hitting the space bar enough, could hurdle cities. As you played the game, all rats were replaced with skilled martial artists in magical samurai armor. Sure, there were numbers that got bigger as you played, you could kill anything that moved, and you got cooler weapons and items, as well. And if that's what you want in an RPG, Halo's one of the best dang RPGs ever, bar none. Other top-notch RPGs that you might like from this decade include IL-2 Sturmovik, STALKER, Empire: Total War, Progress Quest, Bejeweled, Grand Theft Auto IV, Team Fortress 2, and Modern Warfare 2.

Well, okay. Not MW-2, what with the javelin suicide bombing. That's an obvious abstraction.

That's not to say that I'm not impressed with the expansion the simulation genre has gained over the past decade. It's entirely been revitalized with pseudo-RPGs that cater to people who want a sim game but also want a more fantastical and exciting interactive environment than the cockpit of an airplane. Just like the action-adventure genre, it's been re-born and mixed with other themes and gameplay mechanics stolen from a broad variety of game types to effectively create a hybrid environment that keeps an otherwise dead genre alive and kicking. I am a fan of sims as well as RPGs, but they are an entirely different animal than the RPG.

[Zeal]

Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy IV and VI, Chrono Cross, Xenogears, Halo 1 and 3, Knights of the Old Republic, World of Warcraft, Zelda 1, 2 Link to the Past, Majora's Mask, OoT, Metroid.

Some of the best...of all time *Kanye voice* OF ALL TIME!!!

[Herald42]

Zeal, have I ever told you you're my hero?

Welcome back. I seriously had been worried you'd gone soft.

[Anenome]

Mass Effect better f'in be on there
...
Lol, I read the honorable mentions first and was about to be really mad :P

This list represents the beginnings of a gaming canon of enduring classics.

The list in brief:
1. World of Warcraft (PC, 2004)
2. Deus Ex (PC, 2000)
3. Half-Life 2 (PC, 2004)
4. Shadow of the Colossus (PlayStation 2, 2005)
5. Grand Theft Auto III (PlayStation 2, 2001)
6. Halo: Combat Evolved (Xbox, 2001)
7. Portal (Multiplatform, 2007)
8. Super Mario Galaxy (Nintendo Wii, 2007)
9. Mass Effect (Xbox 360, 2007)
10. Metroid Prime (GameCube, 2002)
11. The Sims (PC, 2000)
12. Wii Sports (Nintendo Wii, 2006)

I've played all of these extensively except for The Sims :P Although my sister showed me enough of it. Only game I have ever seen her hooked on, she loves it. Good example of a feminine-focused game.

Honorable Mentions:
Vagrant Story (PlayStation, 2000) (always wanted to play this :< )
Uncharted 2 (PlayStation 3, 2009)
Team Fortress 2 (Multiplatform, 2007)
Rock Band (Multiplatform, 2007) (I prefer GH, but I can see why they picked this)
Resident Evil 4 (GameCube, 2005)
Puzzle Quest: Challenge of the Warlords (Multiplatform, 2007)
Pac-Man Championship Edition (Xbox 360, 2007)
Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots (PlayStation 3, 2008)
Katamari Damacy (PlayStation 2, 2004)
Diablo II (PC, 2000)
Burnout Paradise (Multiplatform, 2008)
BioShock (Multiplatform, 2007)
Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn (PC, 2000)

[Anenome]

Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy IV and VI, Chrono Cross, Xenogears, Halo 1 and 3, Knights of the Old Republic, World of Warcraft, Zelda 1, 2 Link to the Past, Majora's Mask, OoT, Metroid.

Some of the best...of all time *Kanye voice* OF ALL TIME!!!

Someone explain to Zeal the concept of a "decade" :P

[murpes]

6. Halo: Combat Evolved (Xbox, 2001)
7. Portal (Multiplatform, 2007)

Dunno, why this made me chuckle - I guess there were people that played Portal on something other than a PC, and I remember playing Halo under Windows XP.

But overall a good list. I'm just getting tired of reading "Top 10 Whatever of the Decade" lists.

And while I'm at it, I'm sick of everything controversial being called whatever-gate.

I'm also tired of Google news linking to local newspapers that don't list their city and state.

And I hate double coupons that have a "up to two dollars" limit or something like that. Either it's double, or it's not.

There's more, but I'm tired.

[gzsfrk]

Super Mario 64 is from 1996, so it would automatically be excluded from the list (unelss you meant the DS version?).

I didn't reference SM64 to say that it should have been included on the list, but rather as a basis of comparison for SMG. That is to say, Super Mario 64 defined and perfected the 3D platformer. SMG, while a great game, really was just another iteration of the same concept. Other than pointless Wiimote functionality, Galaxy really didn't bring much new to the table other than the funky "run around on a semi-large sphere" thing.

[JazGalaxy]

People don't like seeing that happen in a simulation game. You are correct.

In an RPG, again, the level of abstraction is assumed. If you don't like seemingly impossible situations, I'm curious as to what tabletop RPG you were referring to in your previous post, given that I can count the systems I'm familiar with that avoid those sort of unrealistic situations (or don't explain them away with bizarre "a wizard did it" logic) on two fingers.

That is to say, they don't mechanically prevent the situation, and there are enemies that abuse fuzzy logic and abstractions to do impossible things -- the players are just kept artificially powerless, and have to fight the dangers of non-Euclidian geometry with problem solving and logic skills.

Oddly enough, Oblivion didn't even address all of the things that would bother you, as someone who wants a simulation. You could hit someone with that warhammer the size of a dolphin, and do close to nil for damage. The player, after hitting the space bar enough, could hurdle cities. As you played the game, all rats were replaced with skilled martial artists in magical samurai armor. Sure, there were numbers that got bigger as you played, you could kill anything that moved, and you got cooler weapons and items, as well. And if that's what you want in an RPG, Halo's one of the best dang RPGs ever, bar none. Other top-notch RPGs that you might like from this decade include IL-2 Sturmovik, STALKER, Empire: Total War, Progress Quest, Bejeweled, Grand Theft Auto IV, Team Fortress 2, and Modern Warfare 2.

Well, okay. Not MW-2, what with the javelin suicide bombing. That's an obvious abstraction.

That's not to say that I'm not impressed with the expansion the simulation genre has gained over the past decade. It's entirely been revitalized with pseudo-RPGs that cater to people who want a sim game but also want a more fantastical and exciting interactive environment than the cockpit of an airplane. Just like the action-adventure genre, it's been re-born and mixed with other themes and gameplay mechanics stolen from a broad variety of game types to effectively create a hybrid environment that keeps an otherwise dead genre alive and kicking. I am a fan of sims as well as RPGs, but they are an entirely different animal than the RPG.

That isn't just MY complain with modern RPGs, it's everyone's complaint. From Deus Ex, to Morrowind, to Knights of the Old Republic, everyone complains that it makes to sense to hit a guy with a light saber and do 2 damage.

You're absolutely right in saying that Halo is an RPG. It is. All videogames, to some degree, are. The problem with Halo, however, is that you cannot choose to do what you want. The more you can choose to do what you want, the more of an RPG it is. The less you can, the less of one it is. GTA is more of an RPG than Zelda. Deus Ex is more of an RPG than GTA. Dragon Age is more of an RPG than Deus Ex. Etc.

You keep saying, "thats a simulation not an RPG" but an "RPG IS a simulation." They are one and the same. The dice system is used to simulate the rules that govern reality. Experience points simulate the wisdom aquired through performing actions. Character sheets simulate a virtual persona. It's a simulation. That's ALL it is.

as for what system I played, I mostly played a little dungeons and dragons and a LOT of Lords of Creation. http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9166.phtml

[Anenome]

Dunno, why this made me chuckle - I guess there were people that played Portal on something other than a PC, and I remember playing Halo under Windows XP.[/quoute]
- Ha, that is funny. What platform was it?

[QUOTE=murpes;1828698] But overall a good list. I'm just getting tired of reading "Top 10 Whatever of the Decade" lists.
- First one I've seen this year, tbh, and it's a good one.

And while I'm at it, I'm sick of everything controversial being called whatever-gate.
- The -gate suffix is an interesting example of the creation of a new suffix in our language, and it's here to stay. It's similar in form to -ism, -ist, -ly, etc. I think it's great :P

I'm also tired of Google news linking to local newspapers that don't list their city and state.
- Drudge for me :P

And I hate double coupons that have a "up to two dollars" limit or something like that. Either it's double, or it's not.

- Never used a double-coupon in me life :P Although that could be a good way to get rid of a blind date you don't like. Take her to Arby's and pay with a coupon, then count out the amount in pennys and recruit her to help keep track. Then talk with really bad grammar and smack your gum.

Actually, if you really want to impress a girl here's a sneaky trick. Go to the restaurant you want to go to the day before you take her there. Slip the maitre d' a fifty and pre-pay the amount you expect to spend tomorrow between the two of you, say $100 total or so. The fifty you pay him is so that when the bill comes tomorrow he can walk over, rip it up and say, "For such a beautiful couple as you two the food must be on the house."

Never tried it myself, but it sounds like fun :P Would probably have a lot more impact with a long-time girlfriend or wife than with someone you just met. Why would you want to spend that kind of money on someone you just met anyway :P Save it for your girl's birthday or something :P

...how the hell did I get on this topic?
*wanders away*

[JazGalaxy]

[QUOTE=murpes;1828698]

- The -gate suffix is an interesting example of the creation of a new suffix in our language, and it's here to stay. It's similar in form to -ism, -ist, -ly, etc. I think it's great :P


ugh. I hate it. I don't think it's a new suffix because the only people who use it are the media and politicians and they only use it to try to drum up fake outrage about a scandal by relating it to something universally considered bad.

Kind of like the Bush administration constantly referring to Saddam Houssein's "regime" and "the axis of evil" so people would think he was Hitler.

[Anenome]

ugh. I hate it. I don't think it's a new suffix because the only people who use it are the media and politicians and they only use it to try to drum up fake outrage about a scandal by relating it to something universally considered bad.
According to my PhD linguistics professor it is indeed a new suffix :P Normally a suffix like that is part of the class of function-words and structures (the, and, rather, it, etc--pronouns, adverbials, prepositions) rather than content words (verbs, nouns, etc). Function words are considered closed-class because new ones cannot be created, or the language changes them very slowly compared to open class words.

The -gate suffix is an example of a new functional part of language being adopted into the language. The term is not necessarily political on either side because it started with the confluence of the Watergate scandal and the White Water scandal. People started calling the latter the "White Water-gate" scandal, clearly intending the suffix -gate to connote a scandal or controversy, and since then it's been adopted on a mass scale to virtually anything that's a scandal, corruption, cover-up, etc.

Here's a Wiki entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-gate) on the -gate suffix, and--my god--a complete list of every scandal that's had the -gate suffix applied to it since Nixon :P

[Syl]

I disagree with mass effect, the game was good, great even, but nowhere near one of the top games of the decade.
Baldur's Gate 2 is FAR more important to me than Mass Effect could ever be. It's a better game in every single aspect except for resolution.

[Anenome]

Well, use of the -gate suffix clearly predates "white watergate," so I retract that. It's been used that way ever since Nixon, but that's when I became aware of the phenomena.

[Anenome]

I disagree with mass effect, the game was good, great even, but nowhere near one of the top games of the decade.
Baldur's Gate 2 is FAR more important to me than Mass Effect could ever be. It's a better game in every single aspect except for resolution.

HERETIC!!!

Someone start the fire under that cauldron of pitch.
*cuts open a pillow*

I think Baldur's Gate wasn't quite everyone's cup of tea. I never played it, just not that into the sword and sorcery RPG stuff, even Dragon Age doesn't excite me much. Mass Effect, I think, gained a much larger audience and its story alone is an achievement.

[JazGalaxy]

According to my PhD linguistics professor it is indeed a new suffix :P Normally a suffix like that is part of the class of function-words and structures (the, and, rather, it, etc--pronouns, adverbials, prepositions) rather than content words (verbs, nouns, etc). Function words are considered closed-class because new ones cannot be created, or the language changes them very slowly compared to open class words.

The -gate suffix is an example of a new functional part of language being adopted into the language. The term is not necessarily political on either side because it started with the confluence of the Watergate scandal and the White Water scandal. People started calling the latter the "White Water-gate" scandal, clearly intending the suffix -gate to connote a scandal or controversy, and since then it's been adopted on a mass scale to virtually anything that's a scandal, corruption, cover-up, etc.

Here's a Wiki entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-gate) on the -gate suffix, and--my god--a complete list of every scandal that's had the -gate suffix applied to it since Nixon :P

Well, sure, grammar nerds probably say it's a new suffix. They're allways jonesing for attention, strangely, and trying to get people to accept stupid words as the "evolving language". Like, for example, "sexting". But that's just stupid. I refuse to let the media create new worlds everytime they want to make something sensational.

I think it's important to keep slang and language seperate, or else the language will be destroyed. I think we need to take a page from france, in that regard.

[rulyblue]

Portal:
Anonymous: "It's an experience that can't be explained in a book and it can't be shown as a movie. You must participate in what is going on to really understand it, and the 2 hours it lasts is an absolutely perfect length for a game."


Perfect length for the game in question, not any game. Paying 60 bucks for two hours of content is not a win-win situation. "See how fast you can do it on your second playthrough" does not even count.

[JazGalaxy]

HERETIC!!!

Someone start the fire under that cauldron of pitch.
*cuts open a pillow*

I think Baldur's Gate wasn't quite everyone's cup of tea. I never played it, just not that into the sword and sorcery RPG stuff, even Dragon Age doesn't excite me much. Mass Effect, I think, gained a much larger audience and its story alone is an achievement.

I agree, with that, but that's another pet peeve of mine. games that steal the credit from other games due to the fact that they have more mass market appeal. I think Mass Effect gets a lot of credit just because it was the first Bioware game that had graphics that made people want to play it. As opposed to, say, KOTOR which looked kind of junky and unapproachable on the original Xbox.

[JazGalaxy]

To put another way, Mass Effect is the Final Fantasy VII of the Bioware games. Same, if not inferior game, but finally looks good enough for people to notice it.

[Rommel]

Wait... OBLIVION isn't on that list?

Oblivion is easily the most important RPG of all time, up until this point. It places you in a living breathing world and says "you are there" which is, essentially, the whole point of computer role playing games. I'm not saying it's the BEST RPG ever made, but it makes good on what RPGs are supposed to be more than any other game except, arguably, Fallout 3.

How was it important? It was a breakthrough in applying technology, but all of its design features were incorporated from other games. Also, it has not left an enduring legacy by changing or influencing other titles.

Wii Sports? Seriously? That makes the list pretty much completely fucking worthless.

A better case can be made for making Wii Sports #1 than for removing it! It had a huge impact on this generation of gaming. Thanks to Wii Sports, The Wii sold out two Christmas seasons in a row, defined the era of gimmick control more than DDR or Guitar Hero and was instrumental in opening the industry to casual gamerd and traditional nongaming demographics.

[SwitchBlade_Jax]

Was Mass Effect really that much different in game style than the first two KotOR? I got bored with ME and put it down after a few hours to really know but looked in the same vein to me.

As far as Oblivion goes, most people I think like it b/c they never played its prequel, Daggerfall. Now thats an rpg. No invisible walls to keep you from killing the wrong people or ruining your main quest line. If you could get close enough you could kill kings, even spends years and years in jail. I never wasted more time in a game seeing how much I could fuck up my characters life. It will probably be a long time before we see a game with that much freedom again.

Deus Ex was bloody awesome and I dearly hope someone will make a decent squeal one day.

I personally kinda think WoW is overrated but its one popular whore and you can't deny that.

Oh yeah, Portal, it was better than episode 2 for HL2. Its a shame that Valve takes a million years to make one game but they get it right so much more often than other companies.

[Syl]

I never played it,
Thus you are disqualified from talking about it.

Mass effect was good, it was probably the best western RPG i've played in years, but it doesn't even compare to some of the older stuff.

Honestly, in my personal RPG of the year choices, Persona 3 and Persona 4 are ahead of Mass Effect. What I eventually turned Oblivion into was a better RPG experience to me than mass effect. However, that took years of third party additions and modifications - but it's truly one of the most incredible experiences i've ever had.

Did anyone else notice how heavily biased this list of games was towards Sci-Fi in general? Not to mention it was also very heavily biased towards western games, the only non-western games on the list were the 3 Nintendo created titles and Shadow of the Colossus.

[JazGalaxy]

How was it important? It was a breakthrough in applying technology, but all of its design features were incorporated from other games. Also, it has not left an enduring legacy by changing or influencing other titles.


... except being the root game for everyones GOTY last year, Fallout 3.

I totally agree it incorporates the best elements of other RPGS, which is exactly why it's the most important rpg up until now. Oblivion put Bethesda on the map. It was a system seller for the Xbox 360, a benchmark trophy game for PC gamers, and the object of envy for PS3 gamers. Along with Bioware, they're the only two CRPG developers left standing after all others have fallen.

I mean, how could it NOT be one of hte most important games of the decade?

[Anenome]

I think it's important to keep slang and language seperate, or else the language will be destroyed. I think we need to take a page from france, in that regard.
"Sexting" is a portmanteau. And I actually wholly disagree with your assessment of what's happened to French recently. The backlash among the youth via language is itself a reaction to the French trying to pin language down into 'accepted forms' far harder than most peoples.

Furthermore, the fear that slang will destroy a language is something that has been studied over the centuries, and just hasn't proven to be a valid problem at all. Your view reflects the prescriptivist belief that is the same motivation which fuels the grammar-nazis.

But so what if we replaced every form of "its/it's" with just plain "its" or "to/two/too" with just "to." The context is clear when we hear it verbally. We know which it should be when we read it, so there's really no problem.

What's more, there are tons of languages around the world which don't have anyone teaching it in school and trying to make everyone speak properly, and those languages don't get destroyed at all.

Further, furthermore, English is already quite simplified from what it used to be--which is the fate of every language that becomes a trade-language, a power-language, representative of the dominant political culture of the day.

This is because as foreigners are adopted into the language and speak it, they lose the more difficult aspects of the language and end up deburring the edges off of it. Their children grow up hearing their father/mother speak it (badly), and the forms simplify. That process cannot be stopped either.

The most difficult to pronounce languages with the most complex grammars and forms and all of that are languages that are very remote and have had little contact with the world. That's the opposite of what most people would assume, most assume that remote languages are simpler, but that's not what we find.

Yet, every language is equally able to convey information in similar and roughly analogous depth. There's no danger that we may lose the ability to convey ideas as deeply as we do currently.

But, truth be told, I hate linguistics.

[TekkenZaibatsu]

I didn't feel connected to my character or story in either Oblivion or Fallout 3

Do you mean simply the character/story in itself? Because when you let all the choices, paths and emotions run the story as in Fallout 3, IMO it creates FAR more immersive a world than in any boring old FF/Zenogears/Star Ocean/whatever game in which the same formula is recycled OVER and OVER and OVER again; how is anything in those games interesting on a level of "attachment?" All you're doing seemingly in most of these games is playing an EXTREMELY linear story with the same type of characters you've been seeing for YEARS. Because of this, other than Sephiroth and some nice animations, I still do this day have no idea what all the hype with FF7 is about.

Fallout 3, however, immerses you in a world of your OWN doing and choice based on how YOU would handle things in a fictional world (or how you'd like to EXPERIENCE things in another manner); very psychological. Maybe it's just me; the "stories" involving these over-the-top anime-looking characters in some world you could think up for a children's fantasy movie recycled in game after game just hold no real entertainment for me; maybe they would if they actually changed direction once in a while. That's why I'm more drawn to the Paper Mario/Mario RPG/Pokemon type "RPGs." Yeah, ironic that they ARE more for children, but overall FAR more engrossing and far LESS linear.

Maybe that's not the idea of an RPG (I really am not an expert) in reality, but it's far more fun to me to ACTUALLY be involved in the story emotionally and psychologically like in Fallout 3.


Just my 2 (more like 10, lol) cents.

[JazGalaxy]

"Sexting" is a portmanteau. And I actually wholly disagree with your assessment of what's happened to French recently. The backlash among the youth via language is itself a reaction to the French trying to pin language down into 'accepted forms' far harder than most peoples.

Furthermore, the fear that slang will destroy a language is something that has been studied over the centuries, and just hasn't proven to be a valid problem at all. Your view reflects the prescriptivist belief that is the same motivation which fuels the grammar-nazis.

But so what if we replaced every form of "its/it's" with just plain "its" or "to/two/too" with just "to." The context is clear when we hear it verbally. We know which it should be when we read it, so there's really no problem.

What's more, there are tons of languages around the world which don't have anyone teaching it in school and trying to make everyone speak properly, and those languages don't get destroyed at all.

Further, furthermore, English is already quite simplified from what it used to be--which is the fate of every language that becomes a trade-language, a power-language, representative of the dominant political culture of the day.

This is because as foreigners are adopted into the language and speak it, they lose the more difficult aspects of the language and end up deburring the edges off of it. Their children grow up hearing their father/mother speak it (badly), and the forms simplify. That process cannot be stopped either.

The most difficult to pronounce languages with the most complex grammars and forms and all of that are languages that are very remote and have had little contact with the world. That's the opposite of what most people would assume, most assume that remote languages are simpler, but that's not what we find.

Yet, every language is equally able to convey information in similar and roughly analogous depth. There's no danger that we may lose the ability to convey ideas as deeply as we do currently.

But, truth be told, I hate linguistics.

what, you're outlining though is a language that cannot be taught, which is the fundamental problem of the destruction of the language. That's the whole struggle with urban communities trying to get kids to read text books that are written in the same language, but one that is completely unreadable to children who speak a destroyed version of that language. It's destructive to literacy, it's destructive to trying to TEACH foreigners the language aside from just tossing them in and saying "work it out", and it's destructive to those trying to communicate with others across distances (be they physical or social).

[Anenome]

Thus you are disqualified from talking about it.
- Read my post again, I didn't talk about it :| Closest I came was saying I don't like its genre, that's not reflective of the game at all. I probably would enjoy it. But, perhaps after WoW I am done with swords and sorcery for awhile. You're not actually going to tell me it didn't hard sharp, bladed weapons and magic wielders, are you?

Mass effect was good, it was probably the best western RPG i've played in years, but it doesn't even compare to some of the older stuff.
- But ME also knocked it out of the park on graphics and tension-filled gameplay, and the conceit of magic may not be as exciting to the modern player as the conceit of future technology. Frankly, some of the best games ever made have mixed both, which is something I'd like to see more of. Notably: FFVII and Chrono Trigger.

Honestly, in my personal RPG of the year choices, Persona 3 and Persona 4 are ahead of Mass Effect. What I eventually turned Oblivion into was a better RPG experience to me than mass effect. However, that took years of third party additions and modifications - but it's truly one of the most incredible experiences i've ever had.
Perhaps part of the problem here is that you may be something like an RPG purist. ME was an action-RPG, with the perfect blend of both. Most people don't want to slog through a pure RPG. Oblivion was good for what it was, but it is also not something I'd gift to someone who's never played an RPG before, it's too overwhelming. Mass Effect, however, is a great gift. It doesn't require you to bring as much to the table to enjoy it--ie: ME is less niche.

Apart from that, a game has to be more than a sleeper hit to make this list, it has to have market as well as critical success. I don't think the Persona games did very much generally. Weren't they also Sony exclusives? I dunno.

Did anyone else notice how heavily biased this list of games was towards Sci-Fi in general? Not to mention it was also very heavily biased towards western games, the only non-western games on the list were the 3 Nintendo created titles and Shadow of the Colossus.
Can you name some games that achieved critical mass that deserve to be on the list otherwise? These are genuinely amazing games, I don't see bias. I can't even find any I disagree with. And I can't think of any more deserving, except perhaps Bioshock, but I have yet to play that (I do own it though >_>).

Ask the Japanese, even they say their game-producing industry has been declining for some time now compared to America. Perhaps we've just finally caught up? Who knows.

[Rommel]

... except being the root game for everyones GOTY last year, Fallout 3.

I totally agree it incorporates the best elements of other RPGS, which is exactly why it's the most important rpg up until now. Oblivion put Bethesda on the map. It was a system seller for the Xbox 360, a benchmark trophy game for PC gamers, and the object of envy for PS3 gamers. Along with Bioware, they're the only two CRPG developers left standing after all others have fallen.

I mean, how could it NOT be one of hte most important games of the decade?

1. Fallout 1 & 2 are the root games of Fallout 3. Oblivion had a huge influence on it but influencing a single game, no matter how big a game, is not the same as influencing the industry the way a Wii Sports or WoW has.

2. It in no way revitalized its genre in the way FFVII or Diablo did

3. While it was wildly successful, the title is not in the league of killer apps like the Halos or GTAs of the world as far as system movers

I am not arguing the game is great or that you are wrong for loving it, but importance wise its hard pressed to match a lot of others that also did not make the list.

[gzsfrk]

Portal:
...
Perfect length for the game in question, not any game. Paying 60 bucks for two hours of content is not a win-win situation. "See how fast you can do it on your second playthrough" does not even count.

Good thing your $60 also got you Half Life 2, HL2:Episode 1, HL2: Episode 2, and Team Fortress, huh? Pads out the value a bit.

Glad to see Portal made the list; it was my favorite gaming experience of the past 5 years, if not the entire decade. Here's hoping for a proper sequel, complete with Glados voiced properly (not like those crappy expansion challenge levels they put out).

[Anenome]

what, you're outlining though is a language that cannot be taught, which is the fundamental problem of the destruction of the language. That's the whole struggle with urban communities trying to get kids to read text books that are written in the same language, but one that is completely unreadable to children who speak a destroyed version of that language. It's destructive to literacy, it's destructive to trying to TEACH foreigners the language aside from just tossing them in and saying "work it out", and it's destructive to those trying to communicate with others across distances (be they physical or social).

I'm not even sure what part of my post you're referencing. There is one large problem with prescriptivists: they're often wrong.

For instance, you have people saying it's wrong to ever split your infinitives (see what I did there?), but that was a rule drawn from latin grammar and completely wrong to apply to English--but the idea of making english like latin was an 18th century drive among english teachers that we still have to deal with. The classic example "To boldly go where no man has gone before..."

Along with that is the idea that it's wrong to end your sentences with a preposition. That is false too. And the idea that you can't start a sentence with a conjunction.

We teach a lot of wrong stuff as a rule of thumb and to help kids improve their writing. Kids tend to start sentences with conjunctions: "And I went home. And I ate dinner. And I...." but if you prohibit that they learn to write more thoughtfully and clearly. That doesn't make the construction incorrect necessarily.

[gzsfrk]

...the conceit of magic may not be as exciting to the modern player as the conceit of future technology.

Ah, the age-old battle between the conceit of magic versus the conceit of technology:

http://video.adultswim.com/the-venture-bros/the-best-boy-adventurer.html

(Sorry... I hate to be a grammar-nazi, but you used "conceit" instead of "concept" twice, so I just couldn't resist. And don't even try to act like that was intentional. ;) )

[JazGalaxy]

1. Fallout 1 & 2 are the root games of Fallout 3. Oblivion had a huge influence on it but influencing a single game, no matter how big a game, is not the same as influencing the industry the way a Wii Sports or WoW has.

2. It in no way revitalized its genre in the way FFVII or Diablo did

3. While it was wildly successful, the title is not in the league of killer apps like the Halos or GTAs of the world as far as system movers

I am not arguing the game is great or that you are wrong for loving it, but importance wise its hard pressed to match a lot of others that also did not make the list.

But what you're saying isn't making sense.

Fallout 3 is NOTHING like Fallout 1 and 2. IT's built on the same ENGINE as Oblivion. It's a spinoff.

Final Fantasy VII didn't "revitalize" Final Fantasy in any way. Nobody was "bored" of FF and then FFVII came out and they were like "woo, I like this again!". Final Fantasy was always a blockbuster title in Japan and steadily gaining momentum with every release. IT was nothing but the visuals and marketing budget that propelled Final Fantasy VII to it's status as blockbuster title.

I'm saying, before Oblivion, Bethesda was not a major player, and CRPGS were not system sellers. Oblivion changed that. The Elder Scrolls, now alongside Fallout, is one of the last series of RPGs standing from the classic days of gaming. When games like The Witcher, Two Worlds, or any other game come out, they are compared to Oblivion. Usually with the words "It's no.." put before it.

[Orphiuchus]

My list would include Anachronox and Psychonauts.

And I totally agree with WoW at the #1 spot, I know it wasn't the first popular MMO, but its the first one to do it right.

[Orphiuchus]

Oh, and did all of you arguing about Oblivion forget about Morrowind, Daggerfall, and Arena? Did you think the title "The elder scrolls 4" was a star wars parody?

[Anenome]

I am not arguing the game is great or that you are wrong for loving it, but importance wise its hard pressed to match a lot of others that also did not make the list.
- This is important, we're not merely talking great games, there's tons of great games, we're talking games that shook the industry, that redefined or even created genres. Games that exceeded the sum of the efforts needed to create them, ascending to the status of art. Games that are classics, that will be remembered as firsts; games that will enter the gaming canon.

I was at E3 when Mario 64 was revealed, it was thunder and lightning. Many of the games on this list perfected their genres and came across as a revelation of perfection, a triumph of execution. They weren't the first to do what they did, but they became the best and most popular. Even Mass Effect hangs on the coattails of KOTOR. Shadow of the Colossus is "Legend of Zelda" for adults, complete with tragic, ambiguous ending. The rest have obvious spiritual predecessors. I'm sure the Everquest people cry themselves to sleep every night, gnashing their teeth at Blizzard :P

[JazGalaxy]

Oh, and did all of you arguing about Oblivion forget about Morrowind, Daggerfall, and Arena? Did you think the title "The elder scrolls 4" was a star wars parody?

you mean the ones we've been talking about and saying by name? Yeah, we knew those existed.

[Anenome]

Ah, the age-old battle between the conceit of magic versus the conceit of technology:

http://video.adultswim.com/the-venture-bros/the-best-boy-adventurer.html

(Sorry... I hate to be a grammar-nazi, but you used "conceit" instead of "concept" twice, so I just couldn't resist. And don't even try to act like that was intentional. ;) )

o_O It was completely intential, I assure you. I'm referring to the idea that the game makes you engage in the suspension of disbelief to accept magic in a narrative, or advanced technology in a narrative. The leap the reader must make is much lower for scifi, because tech advances are at least possible in the real world :P The terms as I used them are perhaps more familiar to the topic of the study of narratives, and I assure you I used them correctly :P The conceit of magic is a narrative cheat. You don't have to explain why it exists, the reader just accepts it.

I can see how you could interpolate 'concept' into that sentence, but that's not what I meant. Future tech is still much more immediate, forgivable, and acceptable than magic for a modern reader.

Dial back a hundred and fifty years or so and magic would be more acceptable than future tech :P

[Anenome]

Oh, and did all of you arguing about Oblivion forget about Morrowind, Daggerfall, and Arena? Did you think the title "The elder scrolls 4" was a star wars parody?
I actually preferred Morrowind over Oblivion. I doubt that's a unique phenomena.

[Furious Wang]

what, you're outlining though is a language that cannot be taught, which is the fundamental problem of the destruction of the language. That's the whole struggle with urban communities trying to get kids to read text books that are written in the same language, but one that is completely unreadable to children who speak a destroyed version of that language. It's destructive to literacy, it's destructive to trying to TEACH foreigners the language aside from just tossing them in and saying "work it out", and it's destructive to those trying to communicate with others across distances (be they physical or social).

Languages evolve over time. There are regional differences as well. You'd prefer everyone still speak Ye Olde Canturbury Tales english?

[Anenome]

Final Fantasy VII didn't "revitalize" Final Fantasy in any way. Nobody was "bored" of FF and then FFVII came out and they were like "woo, I like this again!". Final Fantasy was always a blockbuster title in Japan and steadily gaining momentum with every release.
- You'll notice a lot of these are popularizers. Sure FFVII wasn't the first, but it popped up on literally everyone's radar, and had fantastic word of mouth. Same with Shadow of the Colossus, which was almost a sleeper hit and became a genuine hit. Even WoW ends up being a popularizer, a breakout hit. But to do so, company credibility was important with almost all of these.

Would ME have been a hit without KOTOR? Would FFVII be what it was without its previous incarnations?

You can make a case that the companies that made these games were able to make them because they knew it was what the market wanted based on previous experience with similar titles.

Even the Wii itself was helped along greatly by the great success that the DS was.

[JazGalaxy]

Languages evolve over time. There are regional differences as well. You'd prefer everyone still speak Ye Olde Canturbury Tales english?

certainly not. But there has to be some standardization of what is and is not correct. Otherwise there is no language. it's whatever you want it to be. We have to have standards in order to have a written language.

[Anenome]

certainly not. But there has to be some standardization of what is and is not correct. Otherwise there is no language. it's whatever you want it to be. We have to have standards in order to have a written language.
How then do you explain languages where no attempt is made to keep language standard, where the spoken language is never written down and thus all those silly written rules don't exist. In fact, in most remote languages which are far more difficult, have far more rules, far more sounds and consonants than english--in most of those more difficult, more complex languages the people in those cultures also do not spend as much time correcting the kids for saying something wrong as we do.

In fact, let's look at a difficult language like, say, Polish. Polish is extremely difficult to speak/pronounce. Yet people master it and speak it easily. But, it's actually so hard that, while english is mastered generally at the age of 7 on average, Polish children haven't mastered the language until the age of 10 on average. And even if you never once corrected a kid's grammar they'd eventually pick it up just the same as you. We all develop of sense of 'what sounds right' and use this to guide our speech.

[Anenome]

Written language doesn't change spoken language though. You can't pronounce any difference between "to/too/two." It doesn't really matter, it's just a helper in the written form to help avoid confusion. But there's really no confusion when speaking it, why should there be when writing it. Spoken language is extremely difficult to change and keeps itself quite standard without some teacher rapping your knuckles in class :P

[ElfShotTheFood]

I disagree with you completely. An enormous "living, breathing world" doesn't mean shit when it's populated largely by the same three NPCs, trees, and an assortment of rocks.

Also, Oblivion's gameplay is worse than crap.

To this day, I still have no idea why people suck Oblivion's dick so much.

I played this game for 20 or so hours before giving up, and looking back on it I can't think of one fun thing that happened during those 20 hours.

[JazGalaxy]

How then do you explain languages where no attempt is made to keep language standard, where the spoken language is never written down and thus all those silly written rules don't exist. In fact, in most remote languages which are far more difficult, have far more rules, far more sounds and consonants than english--in most of those more difficult, more complex languages the people in those cultures also do not spend as much time correcting the kids for saying something wrong as we do.

In fact, let's look at a difficult language like, say, Polish. Polish is extremely difficult to speak/pronounce. Yet people master it and speak it easily. But, it's actually so hard that, while english is mastered generally at the age of 7 on average, Polish children haven't mastered the language until the age of 10 on average. And even if you never once corrected a kid's grammar they'd eventually pick it up just the same as you. We all develop of sense of 'what sounds right' and use this to guide our speech.

English is a language used by many more people than polish over a much larger area of land. I mean, this isn't a theoretical problem, it's a current problem. THere are children born in urban areas who can't read books because they speak a different "version" of english. I have wealthy kids who can't read because they don't know phonics.

you say spoken language doesn't change written language, but that's not true. Written language, when there is no standard, becomes a matter of people writing down what they hear phonetically as opposed to the way it's MEANT to be. Kind of like how the basketball player "Anfronee" Hardaway was named Anfronee instead of Anthony because clearly his mom didn't KNOW any better. or Colin Powell being named "Colon" instead of "Colin" because his mom was Jamaican. My own Grandmother unknowingly had my dad's name on his Birth Certificate as Ivory Lewis instead of "Ira Lee Lewis" which she intended, due to a lack of education about language.

[Rommel]

But what you're saying isn't making sense.

Fallout 3 is NOTHING like Fallout 1 and 2. IT's built on the same ENGINE as Oblivion. It's a spinoff.

A spinoff built on the world and game play model of Fallout 1 & 2. The engine and free roaming ability of Oblivion lifted it past its predecessors in the same way 3D lifted Grand Theft Auto - a great idea that needed future technology to make a great game.

Final Fantasy VII didn't "revitalize" Final Fantasy in any way. Nobody was "bored" of FF and then FFVII came out and they were like "woo, I like this again!". Final Fantasy was always a blockbuster title in Japan and steadily gaining momentum with every release. IT was nothing but the visuals and marketing budget that propelled Final Fantasy VII to it's status as blockbuster title.

It did not revitalize, you're right. It went past that. FFVII invigorated the entire RPG genre on consoles from a niche audience toward the US mainstream. The RPG genre owes its status to this day to Final Fantasy VII.

I'm saying, before Oblivion, Bethesda was not a major player, and CRPGS were not system sellers.

Before Doom, neither was id despite having released some very popular titles. Launching a company upward is not uncommon at all nor worthy of extreme analysis. Good games make their producers more noteworthy - simple. As for CRPGs acting as system sellers, once again - the game did very well, but not nearly as well as the real system sellers such as the Gears of War or Halos.

Oblivion changed that. The Elder Scrolls, now alongside Fallout, is one of the last series of RPGs standing from the classic days of gaming. When games like The Witcher, Two Worlds, or any other game come out, they are compared to Oblivion. Usually with the words "It's no.." put before it.

The titles you cite are proof that the gaming tastes of the public at large was not shattered by Oblivion, as its contemporaries are not the system selling killer apps you claim. Compare this to the days of infinite RTS titles after C&C and Warcraft II. There have been titles so Earth shattered that, for periods of time, their genres completely dominated and enveloped gaming.

- This is important, we're not merely talking great games, there's tons of great games, we're talking games that shook the industry, that redefined or even created genres. Games that exceeded the sum of the efforts needed to create them, ascending to the status of art. Games that are classics, that will be remembered as firsts; games that will enter the gaming canon.

I was at E3 when Mario 64 was revealed, it was thunder and lightning. Many of the games on this list perfected their genres and came across as a revelation of perfection, a triumph of execution. They weren't the first to do what they did, but they became the best and most popular. Even Mass Effect hangs on the coattails of KOTOR. Shadow of the Colossus is "Legend of Zelda" for adults, complete with tragic, ambiguous ending. The rest have obvious spiritual predecessors. I'm sure the Everquest people cry themselves to sleep every night, gnashing their teeth at Blizzard :P

Precisely. Another example from Mario 64, I prefer Panzer Dragoon Saga to Final Fantasy VII. Seeing as how approximately twelve other people have played Saga, and no successful titles have emulated it save its legendary ending, I am hard pressed to say it was all that important.

- You'll notice a lot of these are popularizers. Sure FFVII wasn't the first, but it popped up on literally everyone's radar, and had fantastic word of mouth. Same with Shadow of the Colossus, which was almost a sleeper hit and became a genuine hit. Even WoW ends up being a popularizer, a breakout hit. But to do so, company credibility was important with almost all of these.

Would ME have been a hit without KOTOR? Would FFVII be what it was without its previous incarnations?

You can make a case that the companies that made these games were able to make them because they knew it was what the market wanted based on previous experience with similar titles.

Even the Wii itself was helped along greatly by the great success that the DS was.

While all great advances build on the shoulders of that which came before, one must find a place where fingers must be pointed and declare a milestone. Meridian 59 preceded Ultima Online by a year, but when you decide what defines the genre itself you look at the laggy classic of Lord British and not 3D0's lost inspiration. Importance is equal parts innovation, application and impact. Its not always the first title that strikes the cords of the public, but usually the one that comes at the right time and puts the ingredients together properly.

[Anenome]

English is a language used by many more people than polish over a much larger area of land. I mean, this isn't a theoretical problem, it's a current problem. THere are children born in urban areas who can't read books because they speak a different "version" of english. I have wealthy kids who can't read because they don't know phonics.

you say spoken language doesn't change written language, but that's not true. Written language, when there is no standard, becomes a matter of people writing down what they hear phonetically as opposed to the way it's MEANT to be. Kind of like how the basketball player "Anfronee" Hardaway was named Anfronee instead of Anthony because clearly his mom didn't KNOW any better. or Colin Powell being named "Colon" instead of "Colin" because his mom was Jamaican. My own Grandmother unknowingly had my dad's name on his Birth Certificate as Ivory Lewis instead of "Ira Lee Lewis" which she intended, due to a lack of education about language.

We're talking at cross purposes here. You're advocating written standards, and citing transcription problems as needing addressing. That's all well and good and you are correct largely. English actually has a fairly difficult written system, and such transcription problems are to be expected.

They don't occur, however, in languages like Japanese or Korean which are not consonant/vowel written languages, but are actually phonetic--you write exactly what you hear.

I'm actually a proponent of an english phonetic written system. It will never happen, but it would be an improvement :P

But none of what you cite is going to have an effect on changing spoken language. Things like "Ira Lee" <--> "Ivory" are ways that language changes naturally, especially because of the history of the language learned by certain people groups.

But what you find is that there's a pattern of language adoption even among immigrants. The first gen born here can often speak both languages fluently, but the third gen integrates and loses the foreign tongue. This only doesn't happen in cases where the foreign tongue is right next door, such as with Spanish. All other people groups have assimilated rapidly. So, even the problems you cite eventually rectify themselves.

Yes, if you're a teacher it's your job to bring people up to a certain standard, sure. But those problems exist because english is a prestige language with many people trying to learn it, a problem Polish doesn't have.

Not sure what you mean by rich kids not knowing phonics. I was never taught via the phonics method myself, not familiar with it, I predate it.

[JazGalaxy]

I basically concider phonics to be anything other than reading by word recognition. The one girl in my class who cannot read, in my opinion, cannot "sound out" words. She has a mental library in her head of word shapes she recognizes, and if it doesn't match one of those words, she has no idea what the word says.

So, in short, she's in fifth grade and completely derailed by prefixes or suffixes.

[White667]

No Portal? Left4Dead? GTA?

[Anenome]

No Portal? Left4Dead? GTA?
o_O did you mix up the honorable mentions with the actual list? Again:

1. World of Warcraft (PC, 2004)
2. Deus Ex (PC, 2000)
3. Half-Life 2 (PC, 2004)
4. Shadow of the Colossus (PlayStation 2, 2005)
5. Grand Theft Auto III (PlayStation 2, 2001)
6. Halo: Combat Evolved (Xbox, 2001)
7. Portal (Multiplatform, 2007)
8. Super Mario Galaxy (Nintendo Wii, 2007)
9. Mass Effect (Xbox 360, 2007)
10. Metroid Prime (GameCube, 2002)
11. The Sims (PC, 2000)
12. Wii Sports (Nintendo Wii, 2006)

I see Portal. I see GTA. L4D1/2 was popular but not redefining by any means. It will make the canon perhaps, but not as a standout. Besides, it relies on co-op largely for its fullest effect.

[Anenome]

I basically concider phonics to be anything other than reading by word recognition. The one girl in my class who cannot read, in my opinion, cannot "sound out" words. She has a mental library in her head of word shapes she recognizes, and if it doesn't match one of those words, she has no idea what the word says.

So, in short, she's in fifth grade and completely derailed by prefixes or suffixes.

Way we learned was being taught the alphabet in first grade and taught the sound of each letter, then sounding out the word. Is that what you mean by phonics? I certainly never learned "word shapes" as you put it. I can't imagine anyone could fail to see words as made up of individual letters unless you didn't know the alphabet very well and the sounds that go with each.

I remember learning these things very clearly. I remember the pleasure of sounding out a word and then realizing the word I already knew that it was meant to be, like "cuh-ah-tuh... cat!" I would say, teach them the alphabet and the sound of each letter, after that it was damn easy for me.

It would probably help if the alphabet song had the sounds for each letter as the name of that letter too :P For many of the letters this is true, but not all, notable 'c'.

[Mr. Crowley]

Mass Effect instead of BG2?!? Are they kidding? I would rather put FFVII in that list instead of Mass Effect. Hell, Planescape is a better RPG.

[Anenome]

I basically concider phonics to be anything other than reading by word recognition. The one girl in my class who cannot read, in my opinion, cannot "sound out" words. She has a mental library in her head of word shapes she recognizes, and if it doesn't match one of those words, she has no idea what the word says.

So, in short, she's in fifth grade and completely derailed by prefixes or suffixes.
Fifth grade!!! Criminy. I missed that the first time >_>

I just had another thought, though. I wonder if this phenomena might actually be attached to her parents trying to get her to actually read from a very young age, like 2-3.

She would've learned to attach a word to its 'word shape' if she hadn't been introduced to the alphabet at that point. And since that worked for her, and she was probably pretty good at it and probably smart generally, she's been able to pass into 5th grade before the deficiencies of the method have caught up with her. That's crazy, 5th grade.

This is a girl who will probably be a great artist. But, there could also be some kind of mental challenge going on. It's fascinating that there existed a set of circumstances which led her to that method of reading, highly improbable.

I've heard of kids who had memorized children's books and convinced their parents they could actually read when they were just doing rote memorization in actual fact. I think it may be tied to that phenomena. Is she upper-middle? The kind of kid who might have particularly doting parents?

[Anenome]

Mass Effect instead of BG2?!? Are they kidding?
A. Wtf is BG2, surely not Battleground 2. Please.
B. Have you even played ME. Its quality cannot be denied.

I would rather put FFVII in that list instead of Mass Effect.
- As with Zeal, you need to acquaint yourself with the concept of the thing called a "decade." FFVII was 1997.

Hell, Planescape is a better RPG.
Planescape, a critical but not commercial success. A sleeper hit at best, considered a cult classic. Few people played it. Sleeper hits succeed on some levels and fail on others. Not a GOTDecade.

[Anenome]

Oh, you mean Baldur's Gate 2, my mistake, lol. I think it's been superseded by Mass Effect. My own personal opinion, of course. Stack the two together and ME certainly looks a lot better >_>

[monkey13]

No one going to mention the Total War series?

Has Company of Heroes been completely forgotten?

No mention of Civilisation 3? (which I'm pretty sure lead to a resurgence of that genre of games)

Can you tell what kind of games I like?

Also SWKOTOR > ME any day of the week apart from graphics (even taking into account how graphics looked at the varying times of release).

Also no it's not trying to copy SWKOTOR that has force powers in it. It has the completely different biotic powers. ;) All that was missing was some kind of lightcutlass and melee combat.

[Anenome]

ME definitely surpassed KOTOR. I loved KOTOR dearly, but ME does beat it. KOTOR also has a fantastic story, but ME even surpasses that with its own story.

[Gedd]

Deus Ex indeed.
'Tis a shame Smith and Spector couldn't put up a worthy sequel; DX2 was such a dissapointment. DX3 is otw sometime in the next year or two, but i'm not holding my breath for what will likely just be another port.

Too bad 3D Realms couldn't have made that list. They were supposed to have released something this past decade too.. can't remember what that was though. :rolleyes:

Why wasn't Daikatana listed? lmfao!

[Demo_Boy]

Mass Effect seems the odd one out. Lists like these are always dominated by recent memory - its good and right that Deus Ex original made it in. Kudos to EA for their advertising machine getting Mass Effect 2 into the populace's psyche.

I would think that EVE would be on this list for it's scope and economic model?

[Butters66]

s.

Oddly enough, Oblivion didn't even address all of the things that would bother you, as someone who wants a simulation. You could hit someone with that warhammer the size of a dolphin, and do close to nil for damage. The player, after hitting the space bar enough, could hurdle cities. As you played the game, all rats were replaced with skilled martial artists in magical samurai armor. Sure, there were numbers that got bigger as you played, you could kill anything that moved, and you got cooler weapons and items, as well. And if that's what you want in an RPG, Halo's one of the best dang RPGs ever, bar none. Other top-notch RPGs that you might like from this decade include IL-2 Sturmovik, STALKER, Empire: Total War, Progress Quest, Bejeweled, Grand Theft Auto IV, Team Fortress 2, and Modern Warfare 2.



This is a really good point: Why was progress quest left off this list? Did it come out in the 90s?

Find a better loot game. I dare you. It puts Diablo and WOW to shame.

I think I have played Progress Quest more than any other RPG. I left it running on multiple work machines for months. Only a power outage stopped it.

[Butters66]

I'm saying, before Oblivion, Bethesda was not a major player, and CRPGS were not system sellers. Oblivion changed that. The Elder Scrolls, now alongside Fallout, is one of the last series of RPGs standing from the classic days of gaming. When games like The Witcher, Two Worlds, or any other game come out, they are compared to Oblivion. Usually with the words "It's no.." put before it.

I think you are wrong. The game you are talking about is Morrowind.

Oblivion was the awesome sequel to that game, but because Morrowind helped sell the Xbox 1, Oblivion was in a great position to be mega huge on the 360.

[SwitchBlade_Jax]

[QUOTE=Anenome;1828748I'm sure the Everquest people cry themselves to sleep every night, gnashing their teeth at Blizzard :P[/QUOTE]

I know I do. WoW is super easy compared to Everquest and that drains out all the lasting value. I picked up WoW again after 2 years and I made it to lvl 70 within two weeks.

Also, Bethesda was a big name company before Oblivion, just not to console focused people. They were mostly focused on PC gaming at first. Anyone that wants a real RPG find Daggerfall, most freedom you will ever find in an RPG.

Also a small tidbit, before Bethesda made Morrowind they were actually trying to turn the Elder Scrolls into a multiplayer or even MMO game. They gave up though and stayed focus on single player. I think some fans were so disappointed that I heard someone made a mod to do co-op for Morrowind but I don't know if it really ever got released or not.

[Syl]

I've played multiplayer oblivion, so i'm sure that multiplayer morrowind existed.

It's buggy as hell and complicated, but it exists. Mod's are what make bethesda games for me. The modding community is incredible.

[bean19]

I think Deus Ex was a bit of a surprise. I enjoyed it, but it wouldn't make my top 10 for the decade. Personally, I would have also kicked Wii Sports. Sure, it was an interesting tech demo that absolutely is fun and communicates the ability of the Wii to play mini-games, but it isn't even close to one of the best games of the decade. I wouldn't even put it in a GotY award contest or a Best Game on the Wii for the first year, so it doesn't belong here at all unless the point is historical.

Fallout 3 definitely is missing from this list. It did so many things so incredibly well. Where is God of War? It is the template for highly cinematic action games now. Sure, we had action/adventure games before, but this one raised the bar for them and it is a bloody good game.

[Venkman]

WoW is a force of nature. It is larger than anything else has ever been in the video game world. For that reason alone it deserves the top spot.

Oblivion gets my vote for being boring as hell.

I didn't reference SM64 to say that it should have been included on the list, but rather as a basis of comparison for SMG. That is to say, Super Mario 64 defined and perfected the 3D platformer.

SM64 was FAR from perfect. It was a huge 3d leap forward in a time of 2d games, but that's it. Have you guys played it recently? Not so fun.

SMG was more of the same. After playing that for 20 minutes, I have left my Wii off for over a year.

[Syl]

Venkman: I find Super Mario 64 not only still fun to play, but i've replayed it within the past year to considerable enjoyment.

Same with Sunshine and most importantly: Galaxy. Which was awesome.

[gzsfrk]

SM64 was FAR from perfect. It was a huge 3d leap forward in a time of 2d games, but that's it. Have you guys played it recently? Not so fun.

Yes, in fact. I've played it several times. It's one of those games that I have set up at my in-laws that I play when there's nothing else going on. I've played through the game start to finish at least 5 times, and have collected every star and gotten Yoshi on top of the castle. The game is as fun today as it was when it came out, just like SMB3.

And while I didn't mean to imply outright that the game is perfect, I will say again that I think it perfected the concept of a 3D platformer, and has yet to be exceeded to this day by another game of the same genre in either how well it plays or how few frustrations there are due to the typical technical issues that tend to plague such titles (glitchy camera, unresponsive controls, poor hit detection, etc.).

And to be clear, I think SMS and SMG were/are both great. It's just that they didn't do enough new and exciting to pull me in the way that SM64 did.

[brandonjclark]

SM64 was FAR from perfect. It was a huge 3d leap forward in a time of 2d games, but that's it. Have you guys played it recently? Not so fun.


Mario64 is the greatest game. Ever.

To this day it is INFINITELY FUN.

[modeps]

Mario64 is the greatest game. Ever.

To this day it is INFINITELY FUN.

Unless it was the rerelease for the DS, I could certainly replay it to this day.

[TeeCakes]

Wii Sports? Seriously? That makes the list pretty much completely fucking worthless.

That, and the absence of God of War, Silent Hill 2, Resident Evil 4-- BUT THE PRESENCE OF HALO?!!?

Joke list.

[TekkenZaibatsu]

That, and the absence of God of War, Silent Hill 2, Resident Evil 4-- BUT THE PRESENCE OF HALO?!!?

Joke list.

I don't know that GoW is nearly important enough. SH2? Maybe. RE4? I think so.

But yeah, Halo is possibly the most overrated series of all time. It garnered all the popularity, so you HAD to think it would make the list.

Whether good or bad, in the long run, Popularity>Quality. This would explain why GI's recent "Top 200 Games of All Time" lists MW2 6 places higher than Ocarina of Time. Ocarina was DEFINITELY popular, but did it have the type of launch and hype that MW2? Nope.



SM64 was FAR from perfect. It was a huge 3d leap forward in a time of 2d games, but that's it. Have you guys played it recently? Not so fun.


Couldn't possibly disagree with a statement more.

[Bryyce]

This list seems to take into account the cultural and physical impact each game had on the decade and the industry. With that being said, wheres Metal Gear Solid 2, Gran Turismo 3, Ratchet & Clank, Uncharted(production values alone?) All the titles I have mentioned contributed greatly to the industry and have made it grow. While they may not be the worlds 'greatest' games they had huge impacts on the community we all hold dear.

Feel free to add to my list or disagree. :D

[the soUL TRAder]

Yeah that list was all over the place, no wonder there was so much agreement and disagreement at the same time.

It would have really benefited from a frame of reference; I mean what type of greatness are they judging games on?

In reality, the "greatness" of DeusEx is far different than the "greatness" of WoW. One is an actual game, which is great, one is really a use of gaming technology to enrich a social experience, which is great but not as a game more as an experience.

[xXJayeDuBXx]

I agree with WoW being number one on that list. Heck, it's probably sold more copies than the other eleven games combined!

[the soUL TRAder]

I agree with WoW being number one on that list. Heck, it's probably sold more copies than the other eleven games combined!

You mean like how the Corolla is better than the Ferrari. ;)

[Johan]

I agree with WoW being number one on that list. Heck, it's probably sold more copies than the other eleven games combined!

McDonald's burgers are the best burgers, too. After all, they've sold billions and billions!

Are they real meat? ;)

[TekkenZaibatsu]

McDonald's burgers are the best burgers, too. After all, they've sold billions and billions!

Are they real meat? ;)

I dunno... but they're the best damn fast food burgers I've ever eaten!

[Anenome]

I dunno... but they're [McD's] the best damn fast food burgers I've ever eaten!
This statement is only possible for those poor souls who've yet to experience an In'N'Out burger, double-double, animal style ;) And they're fries are the best as well.

Head on out to the West Coast sometime ;)

[TekkenZaibatsu]

This statement is only possible for those poor souls who've yet to experience an In'N'Out burger, double-double, animal style ;) And they're fries are the best as well.

Head on out to the West Coast sometime ;)

EH, it's merely opinion. McD's burgers to me have almost NO taste and make me gag; therefore, I just don't bother with anything McD's anymore. BK however, LOTS of taste!

[Anenome]

Yeah, there's lots of taste at BK when you grill it til it burns :P

This is what happens when threads die, we talk burgers :P

[TekkenZaibatsu]

Yeah, there's lots of taste at BK when you grill it til it burns :P

This is what happens when threads die, we talk burgers :P

Hell yeah! Wendy's Baconator FTW!

[Anenome]

I had something recently that really tripped me out. It was a bit of hors d'oeuvres, a toothpick on the end of which was a fig wrapped in bacon (baked, not crispy) >_>

It was actually damn good, but very hard to describe. Quite contrasting in flavor.

Carl's Jr. has this Santa Fe chicken sandwich with a whole green tamale on it, cooked, and it's amazing--except that I couldn't eat it even once without having some major bowel problem >_> And I have a fairly cast-iron stomach. But that thing--every single time. I think I gave it like 4 attempts 'cause the thing was quite good. People make jokes about Taco Bell coming out badly--I've never had Taco Bell go bad on me, but that thing was 100%. It was like roto-router for your guts.