EvAv Community Shame of the Year - 2009 [Archive]

modeps

01-01-2010, 05:50 AM

http://evavhost.com/i/news/evilawards.jpg

The Evil Avatar Community Shame of the Year was nominated and voted upon by users of EvilAvatar.com.

http://evavhost.com/i/goty/tonyhawkride-comm.jpg

Tony Hawk: RIDE
as written by lost

Have you played every single Tony Hawk game? I have. That includes the likes of Tony Hawk's Downhill Jam, Tony Hawk's American Sk8land and even Tony Hawk's Motion. Yet not one of those games stirred up level of dislike that this motion controller disaster has.

Neversoft, now occupied with the Guitar Hero franchise, put out Tony Hawk's Proving Ground in direct competition with EA's newcomer skate a couple of years back. Proving Ground was actually bloody good but in comparison to the flick stick controls of skate it appeared dated and a little daft. Frustrated and panicked Activision decided to hand it over to an entirely new team, Robomodo, and decided that a skateboard peripheral was the way to go.

That's a pretty weird decision when you consider that numerous crap peripheral companies tried to put out very similar devices at the peak of the Pro Skater series' popularity. People didn't react well then and they didn't react well when this was announced. When the publisher slapped a hefty price tag on the package you could feel the growing dislike filter through the forum pages of the internet. If it had, in the end, contained a good game then people may have been willing to forgive and forget. Shame they got that bit wrong too then.

The general consensus is that the motion controller doesn't work the way it should - just like all those failed attempts years ago. The game is buggy, poorly tested and lacking any fun content. There were reports that as little as a few months before release that Robomodo were still puzzling their way around the problem of how to let the player complete rotations. That was as bad an omen as I think anybody needed.

The reason Guitar Hero and now DJ Hero work is that the peripherals and game have been designed in unison. A chicken and egg situation. With Tony Hawk: RIDE a bad idea for a peripheral has had a game crudely designed around it. Shoe-horned and shambolic the whole review debacle didn't help. When commercial game critics were asked to review the game after 3 hours at a press even most balked, nearly all scored poorly.

The sad thing is that skate 2 didn't even turn out that well and the series that spawned this unsuccessful 're-engineering' appears to be falling into the same traps as its forefather. Tricks turning into stunts, gimmicks controlling the entire structure of the game – we've seen it all before. It is, however, difficult to imagine that the Rock Band publisher will ever make one as big as this.

The Shame of the Year award here at Evil Avatar is a very open forum to voice disappointment – the well reviewed Modern Warfare 2 almost won thanks to the new glitches that seem to pop up every other week. I'd like to think that RIDE 'won' Shame of the Year because people still had a lot of love for the TH games. That their disappointment with the results of Robomodo's experiment have been multiplied by the fact that everybody wants another great Tony Hawk game.

None of that really matters though, this game stinks and is a worthy winner of this booby prize. Activision – from one hardcore Tony Hawk fan – please dump the stupid board.

http://evavhost.com/i/goty/mw2-comm.jpg

Modern Warfare 2
as written as by modeps

Losing out by a hair (2 votes) to Tony Hawk: RIDE was the single biggest entertainment release ever. Selling close to half a billion US dollars in one week, Modern Warfare 2 flew out of retailers both online and off and immediately shot itself to the tops of all charts... but that didn't stop the ridiculous amount of controversy surrounding it.

Shortly before release, Robert Bowling from Infinity Ward let loose the information that the PC version of the game would remove one of the most required features for PC gamers: dedicated server support. While pitching it as something that would ultimately help the game remain cheat free and create a simple experience for everyone to just jump into a game, due to the immense popularity of its predecessor, the pitchforks were grabbed and the fires were lit. PC gamers were completely pissed.

Not only would the ability to host dedicated servers be lost, but no longer would modders be able to create their own customized versions to play on; a staple for PC gaming for years and one that helps games stay relevant.

What made this situation even worse was that only a couple days post release, there were already people claiming to have created cheat packs for MW2 including aimbots and wallhacks. Couple that with plenty of overseas users complaining about lag filled games due to the lack of dedicated servers and earlier statements from Infinity Ward indicating that the multiplayer for PC would remain unchanged and you can see where the ire comes from.

While Bowling recently hinted that mod tools may indeed be coming to the server-less game, there's no release date or official confirmation at this time and will likely do little to appease those who have already ditched the latest IW developed title.

yutt

01-01-2010, 06:16 AM

There is no technical reason I can think of for not releasing a dedicated server. They clearly have the server architecture, since it exists in the client. I would be surprised if it was a significantly different underlying networking engine than previous Call of Duty games anyways.

The hack argument made no sense; servers didn't go away, they just exist on a client PC now, which makes hacking, if anything, easier and less detectable. I struggle to understand the purpose of this decision, unless it was just that Activision didn't want to pay developers the few weeks it might take to make a dedicated server for the PC.

One of the more bizarre design decisions, and it reeks of publisher interference.

Meusli

01-01-2010, 06:22 AM

yutt

01-01-2010, 06:30 AM

I just noticed both of these are Activision games, which makes it all make sense. Bobby Kotick is throttling all of the golden eggs he can out of his geese.

bean19

01-01-2010, 07:05 AM

Neither of these were even in my sites. I have never played Tony Hawk: Ride and I gave up on MW2 a week after my rental (really just to clear up the slot for something else), but I've read about all of the bugs and I can totally get how it got nominated.

My vote was for Champions Online. It honestly has a lot of promise, but Cryptic seems to not be getting much backing from Atari. The game had several level gaps, patches that hindered performance rather than improving it, and some of the missions were just broken. The nail in their proverbial coffin is that PvP was not rewarded well (despite being quite fun) so all you can do wth new characters is repeat the same PvE content. Leveling via PvP just isn't possible.

BalekFekete

01-01-2010, 11:56 AM

For me the real shame of MW2 doesn't have anything to do with the PC or lack of dedicated servers. Instead, it's what seems like near constant bugs, exploits, and just plain bullshit that has plagued the game on the 360 since it's release. Between the people hiding in the geometry, to javalin bombing, to endless ammo on the noobtube, I really have lost the desire to play online. I may just finish the campaign (which IS good...no question) and then Goozex the title.

Derella

01-01-2010, 11:57 AM

I voted for Champions as well, for the same reasons. It honestly feels like Cryptic doesn't know what they are doing with the game.

ElektroDragon

01-01-2010, 02:08 PM

Very good choices, but I would have made MW2 #1 because even though they removed dedicated servers and mod support, they didn't make it a GFWL game with Achievements. So they managed to piss of ALL the PC camps at the same time. By removing dedicated servers and mods, they might as well have sweetened the deal to some like me by adding Achievements... because a GFWL game wouldn't have had dedicated servers or mod support to begin with! Atrocious.... Aren't these both Activision games? Activision is evil.

Rommel

01-01-2010, 03:29 PM

MW2 for PC also features toned down from its sister releases. Few people complain about the game, but to intentionally release an inferior version of a game for no logical reason is disgusting.

Grumsh

01-01-2010, 04:39 PM

I am still voting the PSPgo as the shame of the year.

PSPfreak

01-01-2010, 08:43 PM

Glad to see all my trolling of MW2 led to something! :D

shadow763

01-01-2010, 11:03 PM

Totally agree on both. Ride was a bad idea from the get go, and the fact that it doesn't work well coupled with the fact that the game basically plays itself on most settings is a rather poor idea.

MW2 was just a let down over all. From all the exploits to the fact it just wasn't much different from the first one, was just plain stupid. Talk about cashing in on your fan base and playing it safe.

drowsy

01-02-2010, 06:19 AM

To me the real shame with MW2 is that the singleplayer campaign is really poor. It's not just the shortness, it's the fact that it makes no sense whatsoever. Now, I know it's a game, and games generally don't have a great plot, but this feels like something Michael Bay would have written, and that's never a good thing. In fact, the whole campaign is like a Michael Bay movie. Tons of explosions that happen for no reason, poor dialogue, tons of cliches, and a non-existant plot that STILL manages to make no sense.

I've sort of gotten over the dedicated server issue, mainly by just leaving any server that has either a) someone that lags, b) someone that cheats (happens a lot), or c) someone that uses the countless exploits that currently exist. Give this game another 6 months of development time (and proper servers) and it's nearly perfect.

Thanatosis

01-02-2010, 03:27 PM

modeps

01-02-2010, 03:32 PM

I disagree completely.

Me too. I really enjoyed SP... Sure it was fantastical, but so what? Helicopters are falling from the sky, man!

Second Century

01-02-2010, 05:08 PM

I disagree completely.

Well I disagree with your disagreement! :p

Sure the new engine does a lot of things extremely well, like Hi-Res Texture Streaming, A.I., and physics. But the not-so-ground-breaking engine in the first game produced a noticeably higher frame rate (i.e., more fluid animation) and its technical limitations encouraged the developer to focus on story elements rather than special effects.

mcmuffin

01-03-2010, 02:53 AM

I totally agree with the comments about RIDE I tried it about a week ago and it wouldn't do the the tricks I intended it to do and the levels suck because its just one line and not the normal open levels.

Primus

01-03-2010, 12:41 PM

MW2 console is GOTY easily.

lost

01-03-2010, 01:24 PM

MW2 console is GOTY easily.

Mmmm...nope.

Played through it earlier this week - good but not GOTY.

Anenome

01-03-2010, 01:53 PM

If Mass Effect had been a bit more like Halo in the gameplay, with a substantial multiplayer offering and kept everything else the same in the single-player, it'd be all-around game of the decade :) It's already my game of the decade for single-player experience.

TekkenZaibatsu

01-03-2010, 08:54 PM

MW2 console is GOTY easily.

In Bizarro world, maybe.

the soUL TRAder

01-04-2010, 06:06 PM

pwnophobia

01-04-2010, 06:16 PM

The choice of Ride at #1 was a good one......until you announced that runner up was MW2, than that instantly made this EvAv vote shame of the year.

Blame your community, they voted on it. :D

TekkenZaibatsu

01-04-2010, 08:10 PM

The choice of Ride at #1 was a good one......until you announced that runner up was MW2, than that instantly made this EvAv vote shame of the year.
The game delivered to the newie FPS player exactly what they expected after the first one, which was the greatest newbie FPS of gaming history until now. Just because some of us don't want to play newbie FPSs doesn't make it a shame, even with it's obvious flaws.

One of the most HYPED games to a FANTASTIC predecessor ends up with generic gameplay, terrible map design, a god-awful spawn system, watered down mechanics, the KNIFE (one of the most broken mechanics in any FPS I've ever seen), noob-friendly perks and elements, NUMEROUS flaws/glitches, a good but WAY too short campaign, and gameplay that's vastly inferior to its predecessor. I'm sure I'm even forgetting stuff...

How that's NOT the Shame of the Year is beyond my comprehension. It should have been the winner, easily; everyone EXPECTED RIDE to suck. MW2 was expected to be one of the greatest shooters ever and instead it's just another FPS due to how many problems it has.

Yeah, as you said, the game delivered to the NEWBIES; it shit all over skilled players; skill ultimately is irrelevant in MW2. THAT'S one of the main reasons it isn't HALF the game COD4 was, and why it's easily SOTY (runner-up).

the soUL TRAder

01-04-2010, 08:44 PM

Blame your community, they voted on it. :D

I did (or was trying to). Don't know why this place has been so shameful lately :(.

the soUL TRAder

01-04-2010, 08:58 PM

One of the most HYPED games to a FANTASTIC predecessor ends up with generic gameplay, terrible map design, a god-awful spawn system, watered down mechanics, the KNIFE (one of the most broken mechanics in any FPS I've ever seen), noob-friendly perks and elements, NUMEROUS flaws/glitches, a good but WAY too short campaign, and gameplay that's vastly inferior to its predecessor. I'm sure I'm even forgetting stuff...
See that's the problem, I didn't find CoD4 FANTASTIC. As a matter of fact, all those things you hate about MW2, I hated about CoD4.

How that's NOT the Shame of the Year is beyond my comprehension. It should have been the winner, easily; everyone EXPECTED RIDE to suck.
On the contrary, the fact that most gamers knew RIDE would be a shame dosen't make it's shamefullness any less.
What you seem to have voted for was biggest dissappointment of the year, and that is subjective depending on how much you were anticipating a game. Since I anticipated MW2 would be a further watered down newbfest in the same vain of it's predecessor, it didn't dissappoint me at all. And since most of the newbs seem to like MW2 just fine, I don't see how it's that big a shame. The developers seemed to deliver what most of the fanbase wanted.

Johan

01-04-2010, 08:58 PM

Yeah, as you said, the game delivered to the NEWBIES

And of course, a game that panders to a demographic other than your own is, naturally, a PIECE OF SHIT! :rolleyes:

TekkenZaibatsu

01-04-2010, 11:19 PM

See that's the problem, I didn't find CoD4 FANTASTIC. As a matter of fact, all those things you hate about MW2, I hated about CoD4.

On the contrary, the fact that most gamers knew RIDE would be a shame dosen't make it's shamefullness any less.
What you seem to have voted for was biggest dissappointment of the year, and that is subjective depending on how much you were anticipating a game. Since I anticipated MW2 would be a further watered down newbfest in the same vain of it's predecessor, it didn't dissappoint me at all. And since most of the newbs seem to like MW2 just fine, I don't see how it's that big a shame. The developers seemed to deliver what most of the fanbase wanted.

Well that's funny because none of those things were true of COD4...

COD4 had excellent map design, FAR better spawns, balanced gameplay and perks, few major bugs, and all of this blended to create a game that ANYONE could play and play in different ways, but you had to be very skilled to truly excel at it.

And of course, a game that panders to a demographic other than your own is, naturally, a PIECE OF SHIT! :rolleyes:

Instigating BS as always, Johan? Or can you not see through the lines? Are you trying to draw attention to yourself or are you just clueless? I really don't know anymore.

"My demographic" is simply a game that's well-rounded, balanced and fair; the same thing most gamers want, so please spare me, Johan. I've clearly explained the logic of my position, so stop trying to be an attention whore by... as always, taking things out of context and splicing posts to the point that you can effortlessly drop an immature one-liner that means absolutely nothing. You're a lazy poster if I've ever seen one.

How about a little counter-argument for once?

Nah, you'll probably just add another number to your TZ counter like the child you are :rolleyes:

Johan

01-05-2010, 05:39 AM

I've clearly explained the logic of my position

You certainly have. For reference:

the game delivered to the NEWBIES

The logic of it is UNASSAILABLE! Oh, and the irony:

like the child you are

Yes, anyone whose logic relies upon calling others NEWBIES is, obviously, behaving rationally and maturely. :D

Here's the real key: Your "logic" relies upon pissing on the people who enjoy another game by calling them, essentially, children who are unable to ascertain the crappiness of the game they are playing. You, however, are in a position to understand that the game they enjoy really sucks, due to your vaunted position as a gaming connoisseur.

Gaming elitism is so cute. It's also incredibly immature.

TekkenZaibatsu

01-05-2010, 03:29 PM

You certainly have. For reference:

The logic of it is UNASSAILABLE! Oh, and the irony:

Yes, anyone whose logic relies upon calling others NEWBIES is, obviously, behaving rationally and maturely. :D

Here's the real key: Your "logic" relies upon pissing on the people who enjoy another game by calling them, essentially, children who are unable to ascertain the crappiness of the game they are playing. You, however, are in a position to understand that the game they enjoy really sucks, due to your vaunted position as a gaming connoisseur.

Gaming elitism is so cute. It's also incredibly immature.

You are an idiot.

You're going on about me "calling" other people newbies... did you not notice that that was AGREED UPON by the person I quoted?

No, that's not what my logic relies upon. I clearly explained in full detail what's wrong with the game, and you choose to take the lazy route and call me this and that instead of trying to make a counterpoint. And you are STILL, as guessed, taking my posts out of context. You must be the biggest attention whore of all time.

Seriously, you may not CARE that you look like an idiot, but you do and always will until you can actually make a counterpoint instead of pointing fingers with empty insults that clearly contradict what people are saying.

If you can't make a valid point, stop wasting my time and take your agendas somewhere else. Look for someone who's actually stupid enough to think there's any coherence in any of your posts. Your post defy common sense and logic.

modeps

01-05-2010, 04:42 PM

Lets breathe a little :)

the soUL TRAder

01-05-2010, 06:19 PM

Well that's funny because none of those things were true of COD4...
Yeah, I get it...... that's your opinion.
My opinion is that CoD4 had horrible map design which led to shitty spawns and unbalanced gameplay, plus perks were the most idiotic game mechanic I've ever heard of. I do agree with you on one thing: it was created so that anyone could play and rack up lots o'kills.
Unfortunately though, it doesn't take any skill to shit out a magic grenade when you die ;).

I just think it's so cute that you loved a game when you were a newb, but now that you think you're so hardcore you dump on today's newbs for loving the same thing.
Great.......another kiddie gamer grows up and becomes an elitist hypocrite. How precious :D.

TekkenZaibatsu

01-05-2010, 08:44 PM

Yeah, I get it...... that's your opinion.
My opinion is that CoD4 had horrible map design which led to shitty spawns and unbalanced gameplay, plus perks were the most idiotic game mechanic I've ever heard of. I do agree with you on one thing: it was created so that anyone could play and rack up lots o'kills.
Unfortunately though, it doesn't take any skill to shit out a magic grenade when you die ;).

I just think it's so cute that you loved a game when you were a newb, but now that you think you're so hardcore you dump on today's newbs for loving the same thing.
Great.......another kiddie gamer grows up and becomes an elitist hypocrite. How precious :D.

WOW... you totally ave me pegged wrong. Let me set you straight.

First off, disagree, fine. There are shitty spawns in every FPS; it's inevitable. But COD4's was nowhere NOWHERE NEAR as bad as MW2.

Unbalanced gameplay? I'd REALLY like some insight from you on this one. What you are saying is simply opposite of truth. Anyone could play? Yes, but you still needed skill to win.

Shitty map design? Most of the maps (there were a few stinkers but not many) were PERFECTLY spaced out, full of cover and very-well diversified. MW2's maps are too large and without sufficient design so that no matter where you spawn you can get a bird's eye view of almost every other place and pick people off as they spawn with ease (Terminal is the best example; what a terrible map); they cater to people who do nothing but camp. And since the maps cater to campers and people constantly spawn around you, what's about the only legit strategy? Camp. As I said, generic gameplay.

"Perks?" PLEASE give me an example of which perks were "the most idiotic game mechanic you've ever seen?" ALL of them? The entire perk system? That's what MADE the game so fun and full of replay value; and it was different. COD4 would NEVER have been popular without it, simply put. But YET you defend MW2 which has some perks that are ACTUALLY broken? Seems kinda hypocritical.

In COD4 you didn't get to dash 30 feet for a knife kill, you didn't get to spawn directly behind people EVERY TIME they killed you to spoon-feed you kills, you didn't get overloaded with numerous bugs and glitches and TERRIBLE matchmaking, etc.

Opinions are opinions, but some things you are saying are simply untrue.

As far as "dumping on newbs," I'm NOT. I'm dumping on the dev for making the game cater TO newbs and idiots and make the game virtually void of the need of skill; the game is just a generic shooter. There's nothing wrong with being a newb, but there IS something wrong with taking a competitive shooter and making it entirely the opposite.

There are elitists and then there are realists. I'm the latter. If I was elitist or a troll I wouldn't bother trying to give any insight towards my objections and simply be arrogant. Clearly that is not the case. It amazes me how many people don't understand this concept. It seems that most people who throw the words "elitist" and "troll" around really have no idea what they mean.

Johan

01-05-2010, 08:52 PM

You are an idiot.

Dealing out another round of your wisdom and logic, eh? :D So not only are you the authority on this game, declaring it a game for "NEWBIES" and obviously beneath gamers of any discernment, but you're also apparently an intellectual as well.

Thank you sooo much for the humor. You're a bag full of laughs. I'll go back to playing MW2 and enjoying it, despite your haughty sense of superiority that it's a crappy game. :rolleyes:

You're a genius. :rolleyes:

Great.......another kiddie gamer grows up and becomes an elitist hypocrite. How precious :D.

You got it right on the money.

TekkenZaibatsu

01-05-2010, 08:57 PM

Dealing out another round of your wisdom and logic, eh? :D So not only are you the authority on this game, declaring it a game for "NEWBIES" and obviously beneath gamers of any discernment, but you're also apparently an intellectual as well.

Thank you sooo much for the humor. You're a bag full of laughs. I'll go back to playing MW2 and enjoying it, despite your haughty sense of superiority that it's a crappy game. :rolleyes:

You're a genius. :rolleyes:

Seriously, counter argument or shut the fuck up. Your childish antics are getting really old, really fast.

You must have absolutely no life to troll (that's basically all you are, a troll) forums. It seems to me like you say something stupid and/or controversial, then wait for someone to call you out on it. Then you take everything you can make a smartass comment to out of context, essentially twisting what they say around and slandering them.

Seriously, try handling an argument like a logical person and stop dancing around what people ask you. You are either a MASSIVE troll or a REALLY stupid person who somehow feels he is intellectually superior to everyone and feels he needs no logic; he's just always right!

TekkenZaibatsu

01-05-2010, 09:00 PM

You got it right on the money.

LOL, taking the side of someone who criticizes games based off demos. Are you really this ignorant or do you just try to goat people? PLEASE answer, I really want to kno!

Johan

01-05-2010, 09:01 PM

Seriously, counter argument or shut the fuck up.

My counter argument is your own words:

I've clearly explained the logic of my position...

the game delivered to the NEWBIES

We bow before your gaming expertise and wisdom. MW2 is for babies who can't really game at all. It's just not hardcore enough. You know this because you are hardcore! You know what a REAL game is, and this isn't it!

Big, bad old you! Thank you for setting us straight. All the while, millions of gamers thought that not only were they enjoying the game, but that they were gamers, as well! It turns out that they're just simply millions of NEWBIES playing a POS.

Next time, we'll turn to you for pre-approval of our gaming fun. :rolleyes:

LOL, taking the side of someone who criticizes games based off demos.

Figuring you out doesn't take a full purchase. All it takes is one post. Fool. I'll gladly stand on the side of reality, away from your exalted mountain of gaming elitism. :rolleyes:

TekkenZaibatsu

01-05-2010, 09:09 PM

My counter argument is your own words:

We bow before your gaming expertise and wisdom. MW2 is for babies who can't really game at all. It's just not hardcore enough. You know this because you are hardcore! You know what a REAL game is, and this isn't it!

More charades. You are INCAPABLE of real debate.

As I said already, you took that comment OUT OF CONTEXT! The person I was quoting said HIMSELF that it catered to newbies, and I concurred, going further to explain why that was a terrible route to go.

So your "counterpoint" was moot and based on something someone else said. You fail. Try again.

Johan

01-05-2010, 09:13 PM

You are INCAPABLE of real debate.

I am, however, capable of typing a post without resorting to all caps. :D

I concurred

So you agreed that MW2 is, and I quote you, for "newbies." Nice. Enjoy the air up there. Take some tissues in case of nosebleed. Leave the millions of gaming peasants down here in the stink and stench of the valley to play this lousy game. Miserable lot, we are. :D

Anenome

01-05-2010, 09:19 PM

This argument nauseates me :|

TekkenZaibatsu

01-05-2010, 09:20 PM

I am, however, capable of typing a post without resorting to all caps. :D

Is that supposed to be funny? :confused:

So you agreed that MW2 is, and I quote you, for "newbies."

Yes, I agreed. Does your post have a point? Nah, not likely. Your posts NEVER really have a point.

Still waiting for that counterpoint, Johan. A USEFUL post would be nice.

Anenome

01-05-2010, 09:20 PM

So, who likes bananas?

I really like bananas. Have you ever tried dipping a banana in some yogurt before you bite off a hunk, it's really damn good. A little strawberry yogurt especially.

Anenome

01-05-2010, 09:21 PM

Johan, TZ is a guy who actually wants to discuss things using reason, I say we keep him around.

TekkenZaibatsu

01-05-2010, 09:21 PM

So, who likes bananas?

I really like bananas. Have you ever tried dipping a banana in some yogurt before you bite off a hunk, it's really damn good. A little strawberry yogurt especially.

I like bananas but I'm not really a yogurt person.

Anenome

01-05-2010, 09:22 PM

Hint. Hint.

http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1829640#post1829640

Anenome

01-05-2010, 09:22 PM

I like bananas but I'm not really a yogurt person.
Yeah? What's not to like about yogurt?

TekkenZaibatsu

01-05-2010, 09:23 PM

Johan, TZ is a guy who actually wants to discuss things using reason, I say we keep him around.

But HE isn't; he's just a petty troll who gets a childish glee out of acting like a clueless, cynical dumbass and watching as people lost their minds attempting to be logical with him.Either that or he's just an idiot.

Anenome

01-05-2010, 09:27 PM

But HE isn't; he's just a petty troll who gets a childish glee out of acting like a clueless, cynical dumbass and watching as people lost their minds attempting to be logical with him.Either that or he's just an idiot.
Nah, he's not usually this petty. He makes some good points most of the time :P I suspect he may be working out unrelated frustrations or perhaps drunk/high :P But I hope you stick around though. EvAv aspires to the kind of discourse you've been advocating.

Johan

01-05-2010, 09:28 PM

Your posts NEVER really have a point.

Still waiting for that counterpoint, Johan. A USEFUL post would be nice.

:sigh: You did it again with the caps! However, I am happy to say that you have avoided the use of hyperbole in your reasoned expression of your thoughts. :D

he's just a petty troll who gets a childish glee out of acting like a clueless, cynical dumbass and watching as people lost their minds attempting to be logical with him.Either that or he's just an idiot.

Somebody needing a hug? :D

MW2 is a perfectly acceptable game for millions of people. For some, it rates as game of the year. For others, it rates as shame of the year. The truth? There is no objectively truthful evaluation for the game. Opinions are far too divergent and filled with nerd rage and stupidity.

Play what you enjoy, enjoy what you play. Also, use fewer caps. :D

TekkenZaibatsu

01-05-2010, 09:30 PM

Counterpoint or shut the fuck up, Johan.

TekkenZaibatsu

01-05-2010, 09:31 PM

Nah, he's not usually this petty. He makes some good points most of the time :P I suspect he may be working out unrelated frustrations or perhaps drunk/high :P But I hope you stick around though. EvAv aspires to the kind of discourse you've been advocating.

Funny, he's been this way since the day I joined... actually he's been this way ever since I first started viewing these forums around a year ago.

Johan

01-05-2010, 09:32 PM

Counterpoint or shut the fuck up, Johan.

Progress. You avoided the caps. Now, you need to attempt to be civil. Of course, from the peak of your mountaintop, looking down on the dirty masses of newbs below, that is understandably difficult to do.

Keep trying. Find a guide to lead you down a ways, even! The Sherpas are quite skilled at that.

TekkenZaibatsu

01-05-2010, 09:34 PM

Progress. You avoided the caps. Now, you need to attempt to be civil. Of course, from the peak of your mountaintop, looking down on the dirty masses of newbs below, that is understandably difficult to do.

Keep trying. Find a guide to lead you down a ways, even! The Sherpas are quite skilled at that.

Being civil clearly doesn't work with you. Apparently nothing does.

I mean seriously, what is the point of all these posts that drop lame humor and still fail to ever address anything I ask you?

Johan

01-05-2010, 09:37 PM

I mean seriously, what is the point of all these posts that drop lame humor and still fail to ever address anything I ask you?

I addressed it in my first post, and several times since. Your complaints with the game boil down to elitism. It is that simple. You lack the capacity either to recognize this or to admit it. Your comment/concurrence regarding MW2 being for, and I quote you, "NEWBIES" is evidence of my assertion.

Attempting to discuss why people actually enjoy a game with someone who dismisses those who enjoy the game as essentially babies is, frankly, a waste of time. It is, however, incredibly fun to play on a few strings instead and listen to the tune.

I think you woke the cat next door. Now it's in heat.

TekkenZaibatsu

01-05-2010, 09:42 PM

I addressed it in my first post, and several times since. Your complaints with the game boil down to elitism. It is that simple. You lack the capacity either to recognize this or to admit it. Your comment/concurrence regarding MW2 being for, and I quote you, "NEWBIES" is evidence of my assertion.

Attempting to discuss why people actually enjoy a game with someone who dismisses those who enjoy the game as essentially babies is, frankly, a waste of time. It is, however, incredibly fun to play on a few strings instead and listen to the tune.

I think you woke the cat next door. Now it's in heat.

You addressed them? How? By going on about how so many people buy it and play it?

If you think that's a counter-argument, you clearly haven't read ANYTHING I've posted thoroughly.

And I love how I have to keep repeating myself with you. I did not say that people who play it are babies (I love how you grab these random terms completely out of your ass; you put words in people's mouths better than anyone I've come across), I said that the game caters to newbies, that is all. And I have brought a wealth of insight with me to back that claim up.

Meanwhile, you... have not supported anything with insight.

Sorry to disappoint you, Johan... but some people do have opinions that are guided by real insight and not just mindless assertion. Sorry if that's too much for you to handle.

At this point I'll stop asking for a real counterpoint because that's clearly beyond your ability.

Johan

01-05-2010, 09:48 PM

I love how I have to keep repeating myself with you.

Do you find that repeating yourself is frustrating? I imagine it would be... :D

I said that the game caters to newbies, that is all. And I have brought a wealth of insight with me to back that claim up.

Your arrogance and elitism is showing. A game is not a "shame" for catering to any particular demographic within gaming. Believe it or not, the gaming world extends far beyond the end of your nose and your own interests. MW2 is not a 'shame' of the year except for elitists such as yourself, and in actuality the truth is you are simply one of the people who is pissed it didn't cater to your particular tastes/desires. In fact, millions of people found it to their liking, and that's proof enough that it cannot possibly be a gaming shame, because it has satisfied a huge number of legitimate gamers.

Essentially, you're an arrogant ass who believes his opinion on the game is the end of it, and your comment denigrating others who enjoy the game as "NEWBIES" makes it quite clear that 'discussion' on the game is not what you seek. You want agreement, or obeisance. Well screw that. Enjoy your nose bleed up there; you can shove your opinion in your nostrils to stop the bleeding. The game is great for millions of people. That's no shame at all.

You don't like it? Get used to it. Gaming is growing, and you're not going to like a lot of things in it, just like I'm sure some restaurants are not to your liking. That doesn't make them a "shame" if they don't have what you want on the menu. It means you go elsewhere to get what you want. The shame would be if MW2 failed to please anyone. Millions enjoy it. Screw you.

the soUL TRAder

01-05-2010, 09:56 PM

But YET you defend MW2 which has some perks that are ACTUALLY broken? Seems kinda hypocritical.

I never defended MW2, I said it was made for newbs, just like CoD4 was made for newbs, I didn't begrudge you guys who liked running around shooting grenades out your arses, so I won't begrudge those who like MW2, even if it's 10x more newbish.

I'm dumping on the dev for making the game cater TO newbs and idiots and make the game virtually void of the need of skill; the game is just a generic shooter.
And that was what I thought of CoD4 the point is I don't care that thats what a lot of gamers want to play, so I don't care that the dev caters to them.

It amazes me how many people don't understand this concept. It seems that most people who throw the words "elitist" and "troll" around really have no idea what they mean.
So you must think the millions of gamers who enjoy MW2 are suffering from some mass delusion? That's elitest. And calling a game that millions love Shame OTY, that's trolling.

TekkenZaibatsu

01-05-2010, 09:56 PM

Do you find that repeating yourself is frustrating? I imagine it would be... :D

Your arrogance and elitism is showing. A game is not a "shame" for catering to any particular demographic within gaming. Believe it or not, the gaming world extends far beyond the end of your nose and your own interests. MW2 is not a 'shame' of the year except for elitists such as yourself, and in actuality the truth is you are simply one of the people who is pissed it didn't cater to your particular tastes/desires. In fact, millions of people found it to their liking, and that's proof enough that it cannot possibly be a gaming shame, because it has satisfied a huge number of legitimate gamers.

Essentially, you're an arrogant ass who believes his opinion on the game is the end of it, and your comment denigrating others who enjoy the game as "NEWBIES" makes it quite clear that 'discussion' on the game is not what you seek. You want agreement, or obeisance.

Well screw that. Enjoy your nose bleed up there. The game is great for millions of people. That's no shame at all.

Yes, it IS frustrating.

Difference in opinion there. When a game is made to cater to both new AND skilled players alike and then the sequel caters ENTIRELY to new players and makes skill a non-factor, that is INDEED shameful.

Okay, even that aside, broken mechanics, a wealth of glitches and bugs, poor matchmaking, poor map design, etc... that's NOT shameful???

"Satisifed a huge number of legitimate gamers?" There is no possible way you can logically make a claim like that. It definitely SOLD well to a huge group of legitimate gamers... there's a difference, sir.

When I say "newbies," I am talking about NEW, non-competitive gamers; I'm not insulting anyone. So how long are you going to continue to slander me and put words in my mouth? Clearly you don't have the ability to try and sound logical without flat out lying; that or you simply can't interpret a post for shit.

I am NOT telling people they should not play this game; if you play the game and enjoy it, GOOD! But no one is going to tell me this game is perfectly made and well-balanced for a competitive crowd (at least not without a COUNTER ARGUMENT), because it's NOT.

Sorry, but the caps seemed necessary since you clearly aren't reading everything thoroughly.

TekkenZaibatsu

01-05-2010, 09:59 PM

And yeah, MW2 narrowly missed be voted SOTY, Johan. So clearly anyone who thinks the game is shameful is a troll regardless of what they have to say to support their claims. You are so full of crap.

Trolling is insulting with an agenda; without insight or purpose. I have backed up everything I've said with some sort of valid point.

Once a lazy poster, always a lazy poster. You're truly a master of your shameful craft, Johan.

TekkenZaibatsu

01-05-2010, 10:05 PM

I never defended MW2, I said it was made for newbs, just like CoD4 was made for newbs, I didn't begrudge you guys who liked running around shooting grenades out your arses, so I won't begrudge those who like MW2, even if it's 10x more newbish.

Well, you certainly made it sound that way. You apparently struggle with using words correctly.

COD4 was for noobs? I addressed this already, so I'd REALLY appreciate it if I wasn't the only one trying to support what I'm saying. What made COD4 noobish, sir?

IAnd that was what I thought of CoD4 the point is I don't care that thats what a lot of gamers want to play, so I don't care that the dev caters to them.

That's fine. But again, I don't see any real insight for your opinions.

ISo you must think the millions of gamers who enjoy MW2 are suffering from some mass delusion? That's elitest. And calling a game that millions love Shame OTY, that's trolling.

Yeah, thinking a game is a shame is automatically trolling :rolleyes:

I never said anything of delusion. If you like the game, FINE ENJOY IT! All I'M saying is that the game is not COMPETITIVE and therefore for the competitive crowd it's a disappointment.

Millions of people love Halo as well, even though it's a shitty game. So what? Millions of people loved 50 Cent's game, too! I guess if I say anything bad about it, I'm trolling! You are clueless.

MW2 is the runner up here in case you didn't notice; it was BARELY beaten by RIDE. So you are essentially telling EVERYONE that voted for MW2 that they are trolls without even taking ANYTHING they might have to say about it trolls? Again, wow, you are clueless; mindless, even.

the soUL TRAder

01-05-2010, 10:29 PM

So you are essentially telling EVERYONE that voted for MW2 that they are trolls without even taking ANYTHING they might have to say about it trolls? Who stuggles using words? :D

Yes this site has filled with trolls lately, that was kinda what I was saying. Calling a successful game that millions of gamers love to play a shame because of your opinion makes you seem non objective.

I like to play games that are one shot-one kill no respawn, IMO that's the only way to truely prove your skill, but I'm not trying to force that elitism on anyone else.

Sorry, gotta go, see you next year.

Anenome

01-05-2010, 10:34 PM

/lock
imo
:<
worst thread evar

TekkenZaibatsu

01-05-2010, 11:49 PM

Who stuggles using words? :D

Yes this site has filled with trolls lately, that was kinda what I was saying. Calling a successful game that millions of gamers love to play a shame because of your opinion makes you seem non objective.

I like to play games that are one shot-one kill no respawn, IMO that's the only way to truely prove your skill, but I'm not trying to force that elitism on anyone else.

Sorry, gotta go, see you next year.

So you are indeed claiming that anyone that calls a well-selling game a shame is a troll without even hearing their position behind it?

I rest my case. No common sense here; move along, people!

Anenome

01-05-2010, 11:54 PM

Who stuggles using words?
Ironic troll is ironic :P

Johan

01-06-2010, 05:17 AM

I am talking about NEW, non-competitive gamers; I'm not insulting anyone.

Oh shut up. Of course you're insulting people when you say that, liar. :rolleyes:

Your complaints come down to not liking what's on the menu. Tough shit. Eat at another restaurant. The game is terrific fun for millions of people, you can shove your opinion in your bloody nose, and please head back up to your high mountain cave on "Mount-Superior-To-Your-Inexperienced-Gaming-Ass." :rolleyes:

The real shame in all of this is that so many gamers are such asshole hardcore elitists who cannot stomach the idea that someone else's idea of fun isn't their own. Tough luck. Get used to it. Gaming is growing, and your cave grows smaller and smaller every year.

TekkenZaibatsu

01-06-2010, 06:47 PM

Oh shut up. Of course you're insulting people when you say that, liar. :rolleyes:

Your complaints come down to not liking what's on the menu. Tough shit. Eat at another restaurant. The game is terrific fun for millions of people, you can shove your opinion in your bloody nose, and please head back up to your high mountain cave on "Mount-Superior-To-Your-Inexperienced-Gaming-Ass." :rolleyes:

The real shame in all of this is that so many gamers are such asshole hardcore elitists who cannot stomach the idea that someone else's idea of fun isn't their own. Tough luck. Get used to it. Gaming is growing, and your cave grows smaller and smaller every year.

Uh, no. How am I insulting people? By being honest? If a player is new or non-competitive, what's wrong with calling them such? Logic, please?

"Tough shit?" How ironic; the reality is that YOU who are being a troll here. If you enjoy the game, no one else can have a legitimate complaint? Even when they thoroughly explain down to a tee what they find wrong with the game. The truth is, the game has a lot of faults; it's as simple as that. If my numerous posts SO FAR and playing the game yourself aren't good enough for you, fine. Maybe you don't understand games from a technical aspect if you don't see it. I'm NOT saying you shouldn't enjoy it; I'm just saying it does indeed have major faults/flaws.

My point is, Insight>insult. "Tough shit" still isn't a counterpoint, sir.

Counterpoint, Johan? No? Okay. I've given so many examples of what's wrong with the game. "I enjoy it?" Cool, you can and I am glad you do. However, that's not a counterpoint to what I'm trying to say.

If you like the game and don't want to try to counter what I'm saying, why are you even arguing with me?

ElektroDragon

01-06-2010, 07:44 PM

Johan

01-06-2010, 07:54 PM

How am I insulting people? By being honest?

Your elitist dick is showing, albeit with a strong magnifying glass. :D

My point is, Insight>insult.

Really? Insight is greater than insults? Let's walk down memory lane, shall we? I'll provide you with a mirror for some insight into yourself and the shit you spew and pass off as "insight." :rolleyes:

Nah, you'll probably just add another number to your TZ counter like the child you are

You are an idiot.

You must be the biggest attention whore of all time.

...you look like an idiot.

I'm dumping on the dev for making the game cater TO newbs and idiots

Your childish antics are getting really old, really fast.

You must have absolutely no life

You are either a MASSIVE troll or a REALLY stupid person

You are INCAPABLE of real debate.

...acting like a clueless, cynical dumbass...Either that or he's just an idiot.

You're truly a master of your shameful craft, Johan.

And the piece de resistance:

Sorry to disappoint you, Johan... but some people do have opinions that are guided by real insight and not just mindless assertion.

Bwahahahaha! You are so damn fun. You squeal like a cat in heat. You're also a terrifically obvious troll and elitist. You need more subtlety. You're too over the top! :D

I've given so many examples of what's wrong with the game.

You've given your elitist subjective opinion. I've given mine. Now, find another restaurant with a menu you prefer, Mr. Hardcore.

Anenome

01-06-2010, 08:00 PM

"Elitism" is such a general concept anyway. Personally I don't see TZ as being elitist.

ElektroDragon

01-06-2010, 09:46 PM

Ulysses

01-06-2010, 10:48 PM

Always amazed at what passes for elitism these days.

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 12:32 AM

Your elitist dick is showing, albeit with a strong magnifying glass. :D

Please answer the question. "New players" and "non competitive players" are not insults; they are factual classifications. I was not insulting those people, merely trying to explain that the game is almost entirely suited for them, and that's imbalanced. Your attempt at slander is not even the slightest bit convincing. You are full of shit.

Really? Insight is greater than insults? Let's walk down memory lane, shall we? I'll provide you with a mirror for some insight into yourself and the shit you spew and pass off as "insight." :rolleyes:

Then let me make this easier for you:

Insults AND Logic > Just insults.

I have spent PLENTY of time analyzing the faults of the game. Yet you choose to ignore it any quote things TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT that you can use to try and slander me and make me sound like some sort of elitist prick. How full of shit you are.

Try quoting an entire post of mine for once and it will be painfully obvious how much for a coward you are and how... yeah, how full of shit you are.

Bwahahahaha! You are so damn fun. You squeal like a cat in heat. You're also a terrifically obvious troll and elitist. You need more subtlety. You're too over the top! :D

How is that troll or elitist? It's a FACT, you dumbfuck. Stop taking all my quoted out of context. What is the purpose of your slandering posts? personal amusement? You are, you guessed it, full of shit.

You've given your elitist subjective opinion. I've given mine. Now, find another restaurant with a menu you prefer, Mr. Hardcore.

Subjective? All your "opinion" is is simply telling me I'm wrong when I've given a truckload of insight and you haven't given any. But you'll never quote THOSE sections of my posts; you'll always quote that ones that you can post OUT OF CONTEXT and pretend something that isn't true. You are SO full of shit.

Please stop using the words "troll" and "elitist" because you CLEARLY have NO idea what they mean. Again, you are full of shit.

You are a petty dickhead who has to avoid the truth and base your posts on total fallacies, slander and quotes taken out of context. You are an IMPOSSIBLE human being. You are, quite simply, full of shit.

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 12:41 AM

Ok, just bothered to skim most of this and discern the game being discussed is MW2. If they "screwed up" the game to such an extent that the "elitely skilled" players can no longer constantly dominate over more casual players, then that's a GOOD thing, in my opinion. I might have to buy MW2 sooner rather than later to try this out. I've been gaming since all these "elitely skilled" players, for lack of a better term, were in diapers, but in FPS games, I'm frequently dead last. If MW2 can change that somehow, that's a positive thing. Again, have to side with Johan on this one. I should not have to spend weeks or months honing my skills in a darn VIDEO GAME just so I can have some fun and not be trodden upon (or pwned, as they would say) by the "elitely skilled".

Are you kidding?

So you think that you should have no skill at the game yet "dominate it?"

Name me ONE FPS that's impossible for a "non-elite" player to do decent at? COD4 was the same! BUT you still had to have skill to be highly successful at it. MW2 on the other hand doesn't reward you for being skilled; it actually rewards you for being an idiot and doing things that you have no earthly business getting away with. It also spoon-feeds you kills with its shitty revenge-based spawn system so that putting together a "strategy" usually doesn't go as well as it should.

Giving unskilled or new players a chance is a good thing. Being totally generic and giving the bad player the ability to constantly triumph over the good player is NOT a good thing. Seriously, if you aren't good but want to play a GOOD shooter that you can still gets kills in, play COD4; it's the better game by FAR.

*Waits for Johan to quote the negative parts of this post out of context*

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 12:43 AM

One other point...

So apparently now calling someone childish or an attention whore when they obviously are is "being elitist."

As I said, Johan is full of shit.

Anenome

01-07-2010, 01:50 AM

There's few games that have extreme depth and gradation between skilled and unskilled.

My favorite example is Smash Bros. I love this game, played it extensively and competitively to the extreme, and am one of the better players around, if I do say so myself, though I'm well out of practice these days.

Sadly, my brother is better than me, but only a bit. However, he's good because he and I competed for so very long over who would be the best. Truth is, he simply had more time, I had college :P

To give you an idea of how good he became, his fav character was Jigglypuff and he'd take on all comers at $50 a head in 3 vs 1 on any map, and win regularly.

But, I'm off topic here. Smash Bros relies on a few basic movies, two basic specials, air dodges, ground dodges, shield-redirecting, throws, etc., all of these create intensely variable strategy while remaining simple in concept. But a proper angled shield block can send a thrown item back at its thrower. At any one time your options are move, block, attack, dodge. But your move-set is much more limited. The game's strategic complexity does not rely on a large move-set alone to set strategy.

Another example is Street Fighter 2, another game I played extensively. This game's strategy is perhaps simpler than Smash Bros. in terms of options at any one moment.

You can only really do about three things at one time: move, block, attack.

SF2 is perhaps more linear than SB, in a sense. Some people were so good at SF they could toy with their opponents just so easily.

A lot of shallow shooters have no real curve. You pop in, it's easy kill easy be killed.

WoW has the largest and deepest curve I've ever experienced. I never tweaked longer and deeper on any game than that--to the point I was building my own mathematical models in Excel to determine which gear was better, which rotations, etc., but that is the sort of thing a lead tank needs to do to compete at the highest levels.

Most FPS shooter multiplayer just seems empty to me. I don't enjoy random killing, nor random being-killed. Victories don't matter to me either. I suppose people competing on pro-teams would have a very different experience from what I'm describing as they do indeed have a goal that matters :P

Johan

01-07-2010, 04:32 AM

I have spent PLENTY of time analyzing the faults of the game.

You should spend more time analyzing your own. They are numerous.

All your "opinion" is is simply telling me I'm wrong when I've given a truckload of insight and you haven't given any.

You offer no insight, merely insults and douchebaggery. You don't like this game because it doesn't cater to YOU, therefore it sucks. Your assertions regarding this game are a series of unprovable, subjective assessments. You don't like it. Other people do. Your opinion is no more valid than theirs.

You are a petty dickhead...You are an IMPOSSIBLE human being. You are, quite simply, full of shit.

And your mommy didn't love you enough, because you're soooooo annnnngrrrryyyyy! :D

Thank you for the fun. You are entertaining!

Your "complaints:"

One of the most HYPED games to a FANTASTIC predecessor ends up with generic gameplay, terrible map design, a god-awful spawn system, watered down mechanics, the KNIFE (one of the most broken mechanics in any FPS I've ever seen), noob-friendly perks and elements, NUMEROUS flaws/glitches, a good but WAY too short campaign, and gameplay that's vastly inferior to its predecessor. I'm sure I'm even forgetting stuff...

Yeah, as you said, the game delivered to the NEWBIES; it shit all over skilled players; skill ultimately is irrelevant in MW2. THAT'S one of the main reasons it isn't HALF the game COD4 was, and why it's easily SOTY (runner-up).

All of your statements in red are subjective, unsupported opinion. Your proof? You said them! :rolleyes: The statement in blue is true of virtually every multiplayer game in existence today, which is why patches are ubiquitous across console and PC titles, and why this title has been patched as well.

You're just full of shit; seriously full of shit. My initial statement in this thread remains true:

And of course, a game that panders to a demographic other than your own is, naturally, a PIECE OF SHIT! :rolleyes:

You're transparent, and fun. :D

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 03:45 PM

You should spend more time analyzing your own. They are numerous.

Look in a fucking mirror, Johan. You can't even make a single real counterpoint. As I said, YOU hide behind fallacies, slander and out of context quotes for your posts just to shit on people.

You have NO RIGHT to criticize other people's posting methods, PERIOD.

You offer no insight, merely insults and douchebaggery. You don't like this game because it doesn't cater to YOU, therefore it sucks. Your assertions regarding this game are a series of unprovable, subjective assessments. You don't like it. Other people do. Your opinion is no more valid than theirs.

Subjective or not, when I give examples to support my statements, that's INSIGHT, you moron. It's far better than simply saying, "NUH-UH!" like you basically are doing. For all your "high and mighty" denouncing of all my "elitist" posts, you aren't saying a THING to prove me wrong on any account, really.

And your mommy didn't love you enough, because you're soooooo annnnngrrrryyyyy! :D

Thank you for the fun. You are entertaining!

Yeah, Johan, it's just a big fucking joke to you, huh? Just wander a forum and troll people all the time; never attempt to be logical, just try to drive people out of their minds.

You are a human parody; a joke. You'd rather attempt to humiliate people than to be logical. You're pathetic.

All of your statements in red are subjective, unsupported opinion. Your proof? You said them! :rolleyes: The statement in blue is true of virtually every multiplayer game in existence today, which is why patches are ubiquitous across console and PC titles, and why this title has been patched as well.

No, they are not entirely subjective, Johan. They are FACTUAL. The fact you're saying my claims of a bad spawn system and a short campaign are subjective clearly shows you have NO idea what you are talking about and are completely misinformed about the game you claim you are playing.

The campaign is short, Johan; these type of things aren't subjective; they either are true or aren't. Unless you are slow to the point where you can't tell time...

As far as patches for the glitches, I'll give you that, but how many "great" shooters had this many GAME BREAKING bugs upon release and further? If I'm wrong, fine, but I can't remember any.

If it's being elitist to say that clearly I understand the game from a technical standpoint better than you, than go ahead and call me elitist; but it's simply true. I don't care if you enjoy the game; that's fine, but don't make arguments on things you clearly know nothing about.

Either that or you are simply lying to try and make an ass of yourself, as usual.

You're just full of shit; seriously full of shit. My initial statement in this thread remains true:

Seriously, shut the fuck up. You constantly lack FACTUAL knowledge, slander, quote out of context and LIE; yet I'M full of shit? Or do you just like barking things people say to you back at them mindlessly?

No, Johan. You have no comprehension of what's "true;" only what fits your twisted, biased agenda. Common sense is not a strong suit with you.

Ah, but what's the point, I guess? You aren't going to quote this in its entirety, just whatever snippets you can take out of context lazily and pretend you're making a point.

For all your attempts at being intelligent, you are one ignorant bastard. If I was you, I'd be a little less cocky; being ignorant AND cocky makes you look like what you ultimately are: an idiot.

Johan

01-07-2010, 04:03 PM

Subjective or not, when I give examples to support my statements, that's INSIGHT, you moron.

No, they are not entirely subjective, Johan. They are FACTUAL.

You're a piece of work. "Subjective or not...they are not entirely subjective...they are factual."

You can't even make up your own mind as to how lousy your opinions are; your subjective opinion is "insight" eh? :rolleyes: Every single point you have to make about MW2 is subjective and unsupported by anything other than your own opinion, excluding the glitches which, like most multiplayer games, require patching. Honestly, you deserve to be tossed out on your ass for the way you have been posting in this thread. You've done nothing but consistently be insulting, crude, and arrogant. You're an elitist who believes his own opinion is above anyone else's.

You have nothing to support your subjective views regarding this game. Go crawl back in your cave. While you're on your way, take your litany of insults and shove them.

You aren't going to quote this in its entirety

Why the hell would that be necessary? Do you think people here are so stupid they need your posts put up on the boards twice? Additionally, much of what you post is vindictive tripe directed at insulting me. You keep reposting that on your own. You don't need my help. :D

Anenome

01-07-2010, 04:06 PM

At this point, the first of you to stop arguing "wins." :|

bean19

01-07-2010, 04:21 PM

You're a piece of work. "Subjective or not...they are not entirely subjective...they are factual."
I always find the arguments where someone pretends to be stupid really interesting.

See Johan is pretending that he doesn't understand that TekkenZaibutsu is stating that he is backing up his subjective opinions with objective facts.

Johan isn't concerned that this argument makes him appear to be an idiot that can't comprehend the most basic of sentences, because Johan's goal isn't to WIN an argument. His goal is to annoy and troll other posters. By pretending that he doesn't understand he is able to pretend that TaikenZaibutsu is illogical and also troll for another response because Taiken may not have learned that Johan is a bottomless pit of internet venom.

Welcome to the boards Taiken. If you click on Johan's name, you can put him on ignore so that you never read his posts, though honestly he isn't always bad. If you simply never engage with him, he is as harmless as a not-funny uncle who mistakes rudeness for humor.

Johan

01-07-2010, 04:29 PM

he is backing up his subjective opinions with objective facts.

When he presents a second objective fact, to accompany the reality that the game has glitches and needed patching, I'll happily recognize it.

Thanks for dropping by and planting a turd, however! Smells great! :D

Anenome

01-07-2010, 04:29 PM

I
Johan isn't concerned that this argument makes him appear to be an idiot that can't comprehend the most basic of sentences, because Johan's goal isn't to WIN an argument.
Right, this is the part I don't get about what he's doing. An admitted, partisan Christian should be holding himself to a higher standard :\

Johan

01-07-2010, 04:35 PM

An admitted, partisan Christian should be holding himself to a higher standard :\

You should indeed.

You'll also be laughed at, disregarded, called a troll, and have zero respect :P By all means, continue making a fool of yourself, it's entertaining occasionally.

Violating any standards? There's a rock by your foot there, Anenome. Pick it up and throw it! :rolleyes:

Anenome

01-07-2010, 04:41 PM

You should indeed.

Violating any standards? There's a rock by your foot there, Anenome. Pick it up and throw it! :rolleyes:
Yes, because I'm the one lobbing inflammatory personal attacks left and right. Not.

I'm sure I'm not the only one here that would love to throw a rock at you about right now :P

Ever since the new year you've defined "troll" around here, what the hell happened.

Johan

01-07-2010, 04:43 PM

Yes, because I'm the one lobbing inflammatory personal attacks left and right. Not.

Just left then, I see.

This thread is a perfect example of subjective opinion (TZ on MW2) being used to bludgeon people who enjoy the game. Here is the only fact: The game was/is buggy and needed patching. Anything else is opinion. Nothing more.

It is also a fact, however, that I have been the target of far more hostility and insulting dialogue than I have come close to engaging in myself. That is not my responsibility; it is the fault of the poster who spouted that on the page.

Anenome

01-07-2010, 04:46 PM

Just left then, I see.

Here, have a $5 gift certificate to the:
http://www.apw.cnyric.org/tfiles/folder896/Make%20Sense%20Sign.jpg

Johan

01-07-2010, 04:47 PM

Here, have a $5 gift certificate

Not enough. I want more than that. Don't be cheap.

Anenome

01-07-2010, 04:58 PM

Not enough. I want more than that. Don't be cheap.
You're right, you're too big to fail, here's $5b.
^_^

Johan

01-07-2010, 04:59 PM

You're right, you're too big to fail, here's $5b.
^_^

Nothing is too big to fail. Just watch our federal deficit and the dollar. :D

Anenome

01-07-2010, 05:04 PM

Nothing is too big to fail. Just watch our federal deficit and the dollar. :D
When we're talking monopoly money, who cares :P
Of course, maybe our politicians played a bit too much Monopoly as kids by the looks of things...

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 05:05 PM

You're a piece of work. "Subjective or not...they are not entirely subjective...they are factual."

You can't even make up your own mind as to how lousy your opinions are; your subjective opinion is "insight" eh? :rolleyes: Every single point you have to make about MW2 is subjective and unsupported by anything other than your own opinion, excluding the glitches which, like most multiplayer games, require patching. Honestly, you deserve to be tossed out on your ass for the way you have been posting in this thread. You've done nothing but consistently be insulting, crude, and arrogant. You're an elitist who believes his own opinion is above anyone else's.

Don't know what you're talking about. My mind has been mad eup from the get-go.

There's tons of support ro back up what I'm saying. Apparently you don't spend much time doing any research. I do. Just do a simple google search on some of the topics I'm talking about. Not only will you find some factual evidence if you look hard enough, but also a MASS of "subjective opinions," but from "hardcore players" (as you put it) AND "newbs" that are in full agreement with me.

I'VE been insulting, crude and arrogant. Hmm.

Well YOU'VE been insulting, arrogant, ignorant, childish and you've simply mocked and tried to drive me crazy as you do anyone else.

I deserve to be tossed out? WHo's the one that antagonizes posts with NOTHING helpful just to troll people? I'm not a troll, Johan; YOU are. And obviously other people here realize it. As was said, you don't try to win arguments, you only try to antagonize, so cut the shit.

Again, stop using the word "elitist" until you know the damn meaning.

And sorry but YES, my opinion is indeed superior to yours if I at least have some insight and examples supporting mine and yours isn't.

You have nothing to support your subjective views regarding this game. Go crawl back in your cave. While you're on your way, take your litany of insults and shove them.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you. At least I HAVE "subjective" views, whereas you don't have a SINGLE thing to counter any of these points with. When are you going to get that it's YOU who's the "elitist/troll" here?

Why the hell would that be necessary? Do you think people here are so stupid they need your posts put up on the boards twice? Additionally, much of what you post is vindictive tripe directed at insulting me. You keep reposting that on your own. You don't need my help. :D

And you call ME a troll? It's necessary to quote the entire post so that people can see I'm CLEARLY doing more than insulting you, you prick. Taking quotes out of context is essentially the same as misquoting. It's SLANDER.

You really don't understand the concept of out of context quotes being misleading? What kind of job do you have? Because you'd be a PERFECT fit for one of these media sharks that misquote and slander people.

Do YOU think people here are so stupid that they don't see THROUGH that bullshit? You are NOT being civil in your posts at ALL because all your posts are based on LIES AND DECEPTION.

Johan

01-07-2010, 05:07 PM

There's tons of support ro back up what I'm saying

Where? Other than your own words, or the words of other MW2 haters, where is this metric "ton" of "support" to "back up" what you're saying?

It's your opinion, plain and simple. Subjective, self-rationalized, self-supported, self-referential opinion. The game is/was buggy and needed patching. That is true. The rest of your statements?

Opinion.

Come back with something other than "this is so, because I say it's so" and you might have a foundation to build upon.

I'm CLEARLY doing more than insulting you, you prick.

There, there TZ. It'll be better in the morning. Relax. Take your meds. :D

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 05:10 PM

Just left then, I see.

This thread is a perfect example of subjective opinion (TZ on MW2) being used to bludgeon people who enjoy the game. Here is the only fact: The game was/is buggy and needed patching. Anything else is opinion. Nothing more.

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

I guess I'll have to say for at LEAST the SIXTH time now that I am NOT telling anyone they can't enjoy the game.

LOL. Yeah, anything else is sheer opinion no matter how obvious, factual or provable it is. As I said, do some damn google searches; you'd be amazed what you'd find.

Personally I think it's YOU that just denies anything he doesn't agree with. You've proven that by counter-arguing all my points with... NOTHING! You just claim they are subjective (when many are SHEER FACT) so you can get out of actually having to exercise the brain you claim you have.

Seriously, how many times do I have to tell you something isn't true before you stop trying to say it is so you can make me look like the bad guy? I will say it again: I AM NOT SAYING PEOPLE SHOULD NOT ENJOY THE GAME.

Johan

01-07-2010, 05:13 PM

You just claim they are subjective (when many are SHEER FACT)

Put up or shut up. Let's see these objective facts to back up your claims (we already agree on the bugginess of the game. That's an objective fact because IW/Act patched the game! That is an observable, provable fact, not an opinion.)

Proof. Put up on your litany of complaints, showing how your opinion doesn't just rely upon your opinion, or the opinion of other similar random people.

Objective evidence. Proof. Come on. Show us how MW2 is a true shame with supportable, empirical, objective evidence.

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 05:17 PM

Where? Other than your own words, or the words of other MW2 haters, where is this metric "ton" of "support" to "back up" what you're saying?

Throughout numerous pages in this and other threads where I explain how the maps are bad, the spawn system is based on revenge, the perks are too easy to use... most of it is COMMON SENSE, Johan.

For example, Commando + Lightweight allows you to outspeed ANYONE not using both in a knife battle, and allows you to engage bullets from 30 feet + away to knife someone. What I said is that this catered to noobs and gives an unfair advantage. PLEASE present a counter argument instead of going off about how it's "just my opinion."

And I've already mentioned twice now that if you do some google searches you'll find some things as well. Guess you didn't read my post thoroughly.., AS ALWAYS...

It's your opinion, plain and simple. Subjective, self-rationalized, self-supported, self-referential opinion. The game is/was buggy and needed patching. That is true. The rest of your statements?

Opinion.

See above. It is more than just opinion whether you want to believe it or not. I can see you clearly have no technical knowledge of games.

Come back with something other than "this is so, because I say it's so" and you might have a foundation to build upon.

Come back with something other than claims "It's just your opinion" so you can avoid a simple counter point. It's OKAY if you're not smart enough to make one! It's OKAY if you can't read! Just say so and move along!

There, there TZ. It'll be better in the morning. Relax. Take your meds. :D

You aren't the least bit funny.

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 05:19 PM

Objective evidence. Proof. Come on. Show us how MW2 is a true shame with supportable, empirical, objective evidence.

I already gave you my examples and suggestions; we'll see how you respond.

At the same time, this quote is funny. Apparently you're one of those guys who said, "Show me the PROOF! Bonds CLEARLY took steroids and it shows from almost every possible angle! But dammit, we need VIDEO EVIDENCE!"

How cute! :D

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 05:22 PM

See Johan is pretending that he doesn't understand that TekkenZaibutsu is stating that he is backing up his subjective opinions with objective facts.

Johan isn't concerned that this argument makes him appear to be an idiot that can't comprehend the most basic of sentences, because Johan's goal isn't to WIN an argument. His goal is to annoy and troll other posters. By pretending that he doesn't understand he is able to pretend that TaikenZaibutsu is illogical and also troll for another response because Taiken may not have learned that Johan is a bottomless pit of internet venom.

I suppose this pretty much sums it up. What I don't understand is how his life could be THAT shallow, pathetic and meaningless. He's either a high-school pissant or a middle-aged man that never grew up with nothing better to do.

Then again, I think the fact that he's a biased Republican says enough :D

Johan

01-07-2010, 05:34 PM

Triple post? Easy, big fella. Easy!

And I've already mentioned twice now that if you do some google searches you'll find some things as well.

If it's so easy to find this objective proof, provide it to back up your arguments. I'm not going to support your argument for you. That's just lazy on your part. :rolleyes:

For example, Commando + Lightweight allows you to outspeed ANYONE not using both in a knife battle, and allows you to engage bullets from 30 feet + away to knife someone. What I said is that this catered to noobs and gives an unfair advantage. PLEASE present a counter argument instead of going off about how it's "just my opinion."

Pretty damn easy to refute that. You overstate the distance of the commando perk, and the lightweight perk, which was all of a 10% extra speed boost, has already been patched downward. It wasn't much to begin with.

That it? Proof? Any? Hello?

Your opinion is. your. opinion. Your opinion. Subjective.

Also, shove your continued insults.

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 05:46 PM

Triple post? Easy, big fella. Easy!

If it's so easy to find this objective proof, provide it to back up your arguments. I'm not going to support your argument for you. That's just lazy on your part. :rolleyes:

Like it's lazy for you to ignore 90% on average of all my posts and just quote the shit you can slander me with out of context? :rolleyes:

Since all of your posts are just lazy and don't support anything, why should I do different? Make some sense for once; I'm done busting my ass trying to look exceptionally logical for a person who HAS NO LOGIC.

I can be a human parody as well, Johan. You don't take anything seriously so why should I take YOU seriously?

Pretty damn easy to refute that. You overstate the distance of the commando perk, and the lightweight perk, which was all of a 10% extra speed boost, has already been patched downward. It wasn't much to begin with.

That it? Proof? Any? Hello?

No, I don't overstate. There's plenty of videos on Youtube to support my statement.

Yes, it WAS much to begin with. In FACT, and I'm not sure if it's been removed yet, but there at least WAS a bug where you could time your sprint and knife lunge at a perfect point where you could literally sprint across a room.

I also love how since you don't see anything as "proof," you feel you don't need a counter argument. Just TRY it and succeed ONCE at countering something I've said and maybe some of us will believe there's SOME part of you that isn't lazy and idiotic.

Johan

01-07-2010, 05:50 PM

I also love how since you don't see anything as "proof," you feel you don't need a counter argument.

I don't see your "word" as proof. I've already countered the only objective statement you have made. Let's do it again:

For example, Commando + Lightweight allows you to outspeed ANYONE not using both in a knife battle, and allows you to engage bullets from 30 feet + away to knife someone.

You overstate the range of the commando perk.
Lightweight has been patched.

Next? Objective proof? Come on now! Quit frothing at the mouth! :D

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 06:02 PM

I don't see your "word" as proof. I've already countered the only objective statement you have made. Let's do it again:

You overstate the range of the commando perk.
Lightweight has been patched.

Next? Objective proof? Come on now! Quit frothing at the mouth! :D

And I countered that back. Perhaps if you read the POINTS of posts and not just those you could quote out of context you might amount to something as a poster. :rolleyes:

I didn't overstate anything. You can easily be more successful running around with Lightweight and Commando than you can be using an Assault Rifle. I can't tell you the amount of times you can unload LMG bullets into someone about to lunge at you, REGISTER those shots, and still be knifed "cleanly." And as I've said, if you wanted to look across the globe for people who know and experience this constantly as well, you'd never finish.

MW2, is, above all else, inconsistent in how things happen. In this case, it's more like Halo 3 than COD4 (one of the most CONSISTENT console shooters around; one of the reasons it was so good).

Feel free to try tackling another of my examples.

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 06:04 PM

When it comes down to it, you are trying to make me sound like an ass for calling MW2 a shame in the EXACT TOPIC where it is indeed nominated the runner up for Shame of the Year.

That alone shows how ridiculous your posts are.

Johan

01-07-2010, 06:07 PM

Feel free to try tackling another of my examples.

I'm still waiting on an additional statement of objective fact, with some proof of the assertion. So far, you're failing to back up this "shame" designation. Lightweight was patched. Commando is not a 30 feet + knife-over-bullets perk; that's hyperbolic.

That's been my point from the very beginning of this thread: Your opinion on this game is just that...an opinion. It's not an objective fact, it's a subjective opinion. You're welcome to it, but not to touting it as truth.

If that makes you sound like an ass, it's your posterior, and your posts, that put you there.

Anenome

01-07-2010, 06:17 PM

The whole 'opinion' argument, 'subjective' vs 'objective' argument needs to end. No opinion is automatically false because it is subjective, as those who love to call something purely subjective seem to be implying.

Thus, no serious subjective opinion is completely false.

What matters is how closely an opinion correlates with objective truth, and to what degree, and what tests we can use to determine that.

However, because all people are subjective, to claim another wrong is to imply directly that your own subjective opinion is closer to the truth than that of the person you're criticizing. And thus requires proof of its own, which usually takes the form of shooting holes in another's argument.

All I've seen so far is two people putting forth subjective arguments about a game and Johan asserting his is more valid somehow.

modeps

01-07-2010, 06:23 PM

Guys, I'd really rather not have to lock our shame of the year thread... you're going back and forth being a bit more hostile than necessary.

Johan

01-07-2010, 06:24 PM

All I've seen so far is two people putting forth subjective arguments about a game and Johan asserting his is more valid somehow.

Because my opinion is more valid and more logical/supportable.

His opinion:

One of the most HYPED games to a FANTASTIC predecessor ends up with generic gameplay, terrible map design, a god-awful spawn system, watered down mechanics, the KNIFE (one of the most broken mechanics in any FPS I've ever seen), noob-friendly perks and elements, NUMEROUS flaws/glitches, a good but WAY too short campaign, and gameplay that's vastly inferior to its predecessor. I'm sure I'm even forgetting stuff...

Yeah, as you said, the game delivered to the NEWBIES; it shit all over skilled players; skill ultimately is irrelevant in MW2. THAT'S one of the main reasons it isn't HALF the game COD4 was, and why it's easily SOTY (runner-up).

All of his statements in red are subjective. Several of them are directly insulting to people who enjoy the game. The statement in green is accurate as evidenced by the fact that the game was patched.

My opinion? Simple...enjoy what you play, play what you enjoy. If you don't like this game, that's fine, but your own subjective view of it is YOUR view of it, not the truth. Millions are having a blast and see few, or no, problems.

My position is logical and libertarian. His is subjective, unsupportable, arrogant, and insulting. His is also supported by a huge amount of personally insulting trolling, which has been met by precious little similar resistance on my part.

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 06:32 PM

Because my opinion is more valid and more logical/supportable.

An opinion based on denial that doesn't really claim or argue any point is more logical/supportable? How do you support something that never had abase? Are you messing with me?

My (TekkenZaibatu's) opinion: The game is generic, caters to new players and robs skilled players of what they deserve, has terrible design, a short campaign, has broken mechanics/perks, and is inconsistent.

Johan's opinion: TekkenZaibatsu's opinion is wrong.

Your opinion is more logical/supportable? Rrriiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

I didn't bother with the rest of your post since it's the same BS over and over.

Johan, MW2 is runner up for Shame of the Year. There's my proof; general consensus, buddy. You picked a bad place to argue this topic (very poorly, I might add).

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 06:34 PM

You aren't logical. Posts and judgments constantly based on things you ASSUME that are NOT true (that I have CONSTANTLY told you are NOT TRUE) is not logic; it's ignorance.

You do NOT have logic, Johan... I'm sorry to tell ya.

Johan

01-07-2010, 06:39 PM

My (TekkenZaibatu's) opinion: The game is generic, caters to new players and robs skilled players of what they deserve, has terrible design, a short campaign, has broken mechanics/perks, and is inconsistent.

Johan's opinion: TekkenZaibatsu's opinion is wrong.

Liar. Your opinion, absent ANY proof outside of your own OPINION:

One of the most HYPED games to a FANTASTIC predecessor ends up with generic gameplay, terrible map design, a god-awful spawn system, watered down mechanics, the KNIFE (one of the most broken mechanics in any FPS I've ever seen), noob-friendly perks and elements, NUMEROUS flaws/glitches, a good but WAY too short campaign, and gameplay that's vastly inferior to its predecessor. I'm sure I'm even forgetting stuff...

Yeah, as you said, the game delivered to the NEWBIES; it shit all over skilled players; skill ultimately is irrelevant in MW2. THAT'S one of the main reasons it isn't HALF the game COD4 was, and why it's easily SOTY (runner-up).

My opinion:

My opinion? Simple...enjoy what you play, play what you enjoy. If you don't like this game, that's fine, but your own subjective view of it is YOUR view of it, not the truth. Millions are having a blast and see few, or no, problems.

You are wrong because you are making a claim to truth about something that is inherently subjective. I am right because I am simply pointing that out.

You have 34 posts in this thread. How many actually objective facts have you listed to back up your complaints about MW2?

Glitches. True. Patched.
Lightweight. Patched.
Commando. Hyperbole.

34 posts. Plenty of insults. No evidence. Your opinion. Climb back in your cave.

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 06:49 PM

Liar.

Pot calling the kettle black. :rolleyes:

You have 34 posts in this thread. How many actually objective facts have you listed to back up your complaints about MW2?

Glitches. True. Patched.
Lightweight. Patched.
Commando. Hyperbole.

34 posts. Plenty of insults. No evidence. Your opinion. Climb back in your cave.

Really, Johan? Thanks for proving you can count posts, but can't read them. :rolleyes:

My opinion:

If you would for ONCE pay attention and stop being so blatantly set on attacking people, you would see that I have AGREED WITH THAT well over half a dozen times. But that has NOTHING to do with what I am saying.

I AGREE! HAVE FUN! PLAY WHAT YOU LIKE! But that has nothing to do with me pointing out faults of a game. PLEASE focus a little. Nah, don't bother, I know you are incapable of that.

Johan

01-07-2010, 06:52 PM

Really, Johan? Thanks for proving you can count posts, but can't read them. :rolleyes:

Thanks for proving you understand the forum software. I didn't need to count it. It's available in a list for each thread. :D

TZ: 35
Johan: 25
Everyone else: Smart enough to not bother. :D

I AGREE! HAVE FUN! PLAY WHAT YOU LIKE! But that has nothing to do with me pointing out faults of a game.

And the faults you are identifying are vague and subjective opinions. Simple. Except for the glitches. MW2 needed patching. Badly.

Anenome

01-07-2010, 06:55 PM

Guys, I'd really rather not have to lock our shame of the year thread... you're going back and forth being a bit more hostile than necessary.
http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1830463

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 07:00 PM

Thanks for proving you understand the forum software. I didn't need to count it. It's available in a list for each thread. :D

TZ: 35
Johan: 25
Everyone else: Smart enough to not bother. :D

You aren't the only one capable of condescending sarcasm.

Perhaps you don't know how to count, either! My bad!
:D

And the faults you are identifying are vague and subjective opinions. Simple. Except for the glitches. MW2 needed patching. Badly.

There's nothing vague and subjective about things that happen a mass amount of the time and that millions complain about, Johan. Just look around and you might figure that out.

When it comes down to it, you need "proof" of everything, and even when you get it it's wrong because you are always right and everyone else is always wrong. Often I actually AGREE with things you say, but as soon as someone disagrees, they are wrong.

If you post an article that agrees with your point of view it's factual ("IT'S ALL THE DEMOCRATS AND THAT DAMN OBAMA!"); if someone else posts an article of something you disagree with then it's full of holes, it's subjective, it's pretentious, it's wrong, it's moronic, it's this, it's that.

You are 100% BIASED. I bet you believe that silly Noah's Ark story.

I'll say it until you address it: MW2 is runner up for Shame of the Year. There's your proof; general consensus.

Johan

01-07-2010, 07:07 PM

I'll say it until you address it: MW2 is runner up for Shame of the Year. There's your proof; general consensus.

Argumentum ad populum (http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/popular.html). Fallacy. Illogical. Fail.

Step up with objective evidence of this:

One of the most HYPED games to a FANTASTIC predecessor ends up with generic gameplay, terrible map design, a god-awful spawn system, watered down mechanics, the KNIFE (one of the most broken mechanics in any FPS I've ever seen), noob-friendly perks and elements, NUMEROUS flaws/glitches, a good but WAY too short campaign, and gameplay that's vastly inferior to its predecessor. I'm sure I'm even forgetting stuff...

Yeah, as you said, the game delivered to the NEWBIES; it shit all over skilled players; skill ultimately is irrelevant in MW2. THAT'S one of the main reasons it isn't HALF the game COD4 was, and why it's easily SOTY (runner-up).

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 07:14 PM

Argumentum ad populum (http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/popular.html). Fallacy. Illogical. Fail.

LOL, I stand corrected. If it doesn't agree with you, it's false.

Ever heard of basic statistics?

"Illogical. Fail."

:rolleyes:

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 07:16 PM

Now if MW2 had won GOTY, you'd be here praising it, and if I tried to argue you'd use the same statistical evidence to argue.

Unfortunately for you, the results forced you to use the illogical route. :rolleyes:

Johan

01-07-2010, 07:19 PM

Unfortunately for you, the results forced you to use the illogical route. :rolleyes:

Argumentum ad hominem. (http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/person.html)

You've done that repeatedly to me in this thread. Try a new tact of avoidance. Next?

I simply want objective evidence of this:

One of the most HYPED games to a FANTASTIC predecessor ends up with generic gameplay, terrible map design, a god-awful spawn system, watered down mechanics, the KNIFE (one of the most broken mechanics in any FPS I've ever seen), noob-friendly perks and elements, NUMEROUS flaws/glitches, a good but WAY too short campaign, and gameplay that's vastly inferior to its predecessor. I'm sure I'm even forgetting stuff...

Yeah, as you said, the game delivered to the NEWBIES; it shit all over skilled players; skill ultimately is irrelevant in MW2. THAT'S one of the main reasons it isn't HALF the game COD4 was, and why it's easily SOTY (runner-up).

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 07:23 PM

Argumentum ad hominem. (http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/person.html)

You've done that repeatedly to me in this thread. Try a new tact of avoidance. Next?

I simply want objective evidence of this:

Basic statistics (I'll see if I can find you a link).

Next?

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 07:24 PM

I simply want objective evidence of this:

I simply want a counterpoint to all that to prove it's NOT true.

Johan

01-07-2010, 07:27 PM

I simply want a counterpoint to all that to prove it's NOT true.

Argumentum ad ignorantiam. (http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/ignorance.html)

Commando? Hyperbolic opinion
Lightweight? Patched
Glitches? Patched

Any other specific evidence that needs addressing? Let's be specific now! Your litany of complaints is subjective. Be specific and objective.

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 07:49 PM

a god-awful spawn system

The game's spawning is nothing difficult to "prove." It was made with the idea of "paybacks" in mind so that players can get a chance to "take revenge" on the players that killed them, thus spawning them close (MANY times as close as 3 feet away or LESS) for this reason. Otherwise, the game seem to have no priority of spawning someone in a safe place as COD4 did. it will spawn you almost completely randomly; getting killed the MOMENT you spawn is a common occurence.

Good luck calculating how many people will agree, BTW.

terrible map design

If you can't see this you're just blind, Johan. Most (not all, but most) of the maps are designed in a manner that leaves too large a portion for someone to spawn and automatically see numerous other people as they spawn; there are too many spots to simply sit and easily see 50% or more of all the spawn points IN THE ENTIRE MAP from a single spot; this is prevalent in MANY maps (Terminal and Afghan most prevalent). It makes it so that almost no spawn point is safe or secluded. And with the bad spawns this TOGETHER creates a problem where sitting in a corner camping is the only real "strategy." If you try to flank someone you just get spawn killed, mainly because the maps are just too damn big. There are virtually NO small maps besides Scrapyard and Rust.

watered down mechanics

There's virtually no recoil in this game now with the exception of a few guns, and the sway mechanic is almost entirely gone, making auto-aim even easier and more idiot-proof. Also the inclusion of a heartbeat sensor is laughable. Who needs stealth or skill when you can know everyone near you is without seeing them? And then because of the spawn kills, getting a UAV a snap. There's too much spoon-feeding in the game rather than needing cunning intuition and stealth skills. The knife also factors into this, too. I'll get to that later.

the KNIFE (one of the most broken mechanics in any FPS I've ever seen)

I've already explained this. In COD4 you did NOT lunge; at least not much; you simply stabbed someone who was right in front of you. It was not a spoon-fed kill because you couldn't just lazily lunge towards someone... you had to SHOOT them. The knife was more about reflex, not about who lags less. Even WITHOUT Commando, you still lunge a considerable amount.

noob-friendly perks and elements

Already addressed above. In addition, Lightweight coupled with Commando makes someone near IMPOSSIBLE to stab close range, giving them an unfair advantage.

Are you really going to argue with me on this? Really, where is the skill in being able to knife someone from 20+ feet away while THEY are shooting BULLETS at you? Where is the fairness? You are being silly if you seriously think it's "fair and just." This is a SHOOTER, not a Knifer. The knife was perfect in COD4, now you can actually be an idiot and run after people reloading or even switching weapons (which takes far longer now) and not even have to do the work of getting right next to them; just start lunging from 20 feet and you get the kill you didn't deserve.

NUMEROUS flaws/glitches

Pretty sure we already agreed upon and resolved this issue.

a good but WAY too short campaign

Just simple fact. There's no "evidence" needed except to play through it yourself. It's a short campaign, simple as that.

generic gameplay

Proven for itself. All of the above leads to a game that is just a massive spawn kill-fest. Being unskilled and being LUCKY lead to better results more often than being skilled. That's pretty generic. If you want a shooter than anyone can play but the SKILLED truly prosper at, play COD4.

That enough for you, Johan? Nah, I'm sure its not.

Johan

01-07-2010, 07:58 PM

The game's spawning is nothing difficult to "prove." It was made with the idea of "paybacks" in mind so that players can get a chance to "take revenge" on the players that killed them, thus spawning them close (MANY times as close as 3 feet away or LESS) for this reason.

I don't see this as a problem. You do. Impasse.

If you try to flank someone you just get spawn killed, mainly because the maps are just too damn big. There are virtually NO small maps besides Scrapyard and Rust.

This seems like a personal preference, which is fine, but not a complaint that everyone will share.

There's too much spoon-feeding in the game rather than needing cunning intuition and stealth skills.

This seems to be at the heart of your problem with the game. I don't see it as a problem, but as a design intent.

The knife was more about reflex, not about who lags less.

This seems pretty legitimate, because lag does play in to the knife's range/distance. : Poof : you're dead. :D

Lightweight coupled with Commando makes someone near IMPOSSIBLE to stab close range, giving them an unfair advantage.

This seems pretty legitimate as well. I've experienced some of this myself.

This is a SHOOTER, not a Knifer.

It bothers you? It doesn't bother me.

It's a short campaign, simple as that.

Not a big issue to argue over. The game's focus is multiplayer. The single player was a narrative mess (my subjective view).

Being unskilled and being LUCKY lead to better results more often than being skilled.

I don't agree. Simple.

That enough for you, Johan? Nah, I'm sure its not.

Never enough. You don't like it. Others do. Shame of the year? Runner-up? Please. Silliness. You have two points I'll grant as legit. The rest I just don't agree with, simply put. There's no "truth" to be had on those, in my view.

We just disagree. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvf5rVzmHuc)

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 08:03 PM

This seems to be at the heart of your problem with the game. I don't see it as a problem, but as a design intent.

And this is where I stop because my argument is wasted on you. Any competitive player will tell you this is unfair and prevents you from mounting a flanking/following strategy. If you are not competitive and just play for fun, fine. But for a competitive player, there is nothing "fun" about getting someone spawned behind you every time you try to do something; that is unfair, that's a fact.

And as I said, it's the COMPETITIVE player that is hurt by these things, but it is possible to welcome new players and not alienate skilled players; that's what COD4 did.

And as I said, I am arguing in favor of the competitive players, so your ENTIRE campaign against me was moot and a waste of both our time.

Johan

01-07-2010, 08:09 PM

And as I said, I am arguing in favor of the competitive players, so your ENTIRE campaign against me was moot and a waste of both our time.

It's never a waste with you, TekkenZaibatsu! NEVER!!!!!!!! Also, you're doing it again. (http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/popular.html) You don't speak for all competitive players (for one thing, the different platforms have very different approaches to FPS games, and different communities involved in them), and appealing to the crowd is a weak basis for an argument.

I disagree with your central hypothesis. I am, however, flattered to be the center of nearly half of your posting history here at EvAv.! :D

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 08:17 PM

It's never a waste with you, TekkenZaibatsu! NEVER!!!!!!!! Also, you're doing it again. (http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/popular.html) You don't speak for all competitive players

You are kidding yourself. Find me ONE person who calls himself a "competitive player" that likes the idea of people spawning behind him at any given time and rendering his skill useless; I'll salute you.

It won't happen. Yes, I DO speak for all competitive players. I'd say "the majority," but trust me, NO ONE who takes a game seriously on a competitive level is OK with people having unfair advantages on them that takes the controller out of their hands; THAT'S NOT COMPETITIVE, JOHAN. Perhaps you lack the knowledge of what it means for a game to be competitive.

Johan

01-07-2010, 08:28 PM

You are kidding yourself. Find me ONE person who calls himself a "competitive player" that likes the idea of people spawning behind him at any given time and rendering his skill useless; I'll salute you.

I haven't experienced that spawn problem, so the need to find someone is moot.

I think it's embarrassing for the site that so many people essentially said "This game doesn't offer what I want in a follow-up to CoD4, so it's the shame of the year to me."

It's not a "shame." You just don't like what it offers, while others do.

I'm spent on this. I give up. Good night.

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 08:34 PM

I haven't experienced that spawn problem, so the need to find someone is moot.

I think it's embarrassing for the site that so many people essentially said "This game doesn't offer what I want in a follow-up to CoD4, so it's the shame of the year to me." That's just immature.

It's not a "shame." You just don't like what it offers, while others do.

Then I have to wonder how much you actually play. If I don't get spawn killed once out of 3 deaths, I'm AMAZED.

The spawn system is generally agreed upon by a MASS amount of players to be terrible. If you don't want to believe it, that's fine; but that doesn't make it untrue.

Although frankly, if you claim you haven't *ever* experienced a spawn problem, you've either played maybe a total of 10 minutes or are simply lying. Even the best shooter you could have ever played (I won't judge what that might be) will have a spawn kill every now and then. For you to say you've *never* experienced a spawn problem makes me suspicious you're in denial to defend a game that you aren't ready to admit let you down at this point.

That's NOT what people are saying. Well, maybe some people ARE... but not myself. I'm saying it's a shame because it was expected to better COD4 in every way, and instead did the exact opposite. How is that NOT a shame???

Johan

01-07-2010, 08:37 PM

Although frankly, if you claim you haven't *ever* experienced a spawn problem, you've either played maybe a total of 10 minutes or are simply lying.

I've played hours of multiplayer, and experienced ONE spawn situation that did not match up with what you identified (you said: "Find me ONE person who calls himself a "competitive player" that likes the idea of people spawning behind him at any given time and rendering his skill useless." I haven't seen that happen as you described it, or at least as I understand what you're describing).

Once I spawned and was killed immediately. That's the only spawn problem I've ever encountered playing myself, across hours (not hundreds, however) of play time. I also saw it happen once watching my brother play (he got a spawn-camp-kill).

That's it. Not a problem for me. Then again, I suck, so I die a lot. Maybe I'm too slow to notice it was a spawn kill.

TekkenZaibatsu

01-07-2010, 08:42 PM

I've played hours of multiplayer, and experienced ONE spawn situation that did not match up with what you identified (you said: "Find me ONE person who calls himself a "competitive player" that likes the idea of people spawning behind him at any given time and rendering his skill useless." I haven't seen that happen as you described it, or at least as I understand what you're describing).

Once I spawned and was killed immediately. That's the only spawn problem I've ever encountered playing myself, across hours (not hundreds, however) of play time. I also saw it happen once watching my brother play (he got a spawn-camp-kill).

That's it. Not a problem for me. Then again, I suck, so I die a lot. Maybe I'm too slow to notice it was a spawn kill.

Point taken, but that said you probably get screwed over a lot more than you realize. You probably DO get spawn killed more than you realize.

I mean, I've never HEARD of such a thing as a person who gets spawn killed ONCE in "hours of multiplayer..." in ANY game, much less a spawn killing clusterfuck like MW2 or Resistance 2; it's just impossible.