Sony and HD-DVD together Now?

[bapenguin]

Sony and NEC have merged their optical drive business.
From Team XBox (http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/10339/Sony-and-NEC-to-Merge-Optical-Disc-Drive-Businesses/)

The new company will combine Sony’s expertise in optical pick-up heads with NEC’s proficiency in optical LSI logic. Sony is the main backer of Blu-ray Disc technology while NEC decided last year to join the HD DVD camp, which means that the new joint venture company will manufacture and sale both technologies.
On the other side of the fence (http://hdtv.engadget.com/2006/02/27/sony-and-nec-to-combine-optical-businesses-victory-for-blu-ray/), since Sony owns 55% of the company, they may just scrap NEC's backing of HD-DVD alltogether.

Fail safe for these companies? Do they realize that maybe both next gen formats are going to fail and want to have as much income as possible?

[yNot]

Please forgive my ignorance, but just in the last month I've been picking up on more and more discussion of both next-gen formats possibly failing....but I haven't seen much discussion as to why. Are these references alluding to the possibility that since there are two competing formats, this could cause both of them to fail? Or, is there some common characteristic to both formats that may cause them to fail?

I ask this because, from what I understand, the DRM implementation for both BRD and HD-DVD players is such that if you have an HDTV that does not have an HDMI input, then you will not be able to receive a full HD signal to the TV (i.e. component cables will not carry the full HD signal in the next-gen players). Is this why people suspect both formats to fail?

Sorry for all the questions. I always seem to have more of those than answers :)

[Citizen Philip]

Haha! Screw them all. These new formats offer ZERO to the user and everything to the company to load everything up with DRM. Blu-ray HD-DVD, bullocks. Now, if they can just make a Linux distro for a newb like me that runs game I can get rid of Windows too.

[Yeti2005]

I think there's a few reasons why people think it will fail:

1. You already mentioned that the full resolution will only be available on HDMI/DVI outputs. (This screws a good chunk of the ~7% of us who have an HDTV)

2. The format war will confuse the customer. Some studio are only doing Blu-Ray, some HD-DVD, some both.

3. Besides resolution not much is offered by the next gen formats and consumers are currently happy with their dirt cheap DVD players.

4. Digital distribution will become more and more viable as broadband and video codecs continue to improve.

Edit: I didn't mention price because almost every new technology is expensive and decreases over time. Initially however I believe the price will stop the mainstream from picking up next gen players.

[Nite_Moogle]

Both formats are expensive and require TVs that the majority of people don't yet own in order to provide improved visuals over DVDs. Most people will have no reason to buy either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray until they buy a HDTV, and they will have to start collecting all their movies over again from scratch. I don't know about you but I don't have a problem with the quality of my DVDs and I'm sure not spending another thousand dollars on a player after I finally get around to buying a nice TV.

I just don't see how there will be enough demand for either format to become successful. I doubt that even integrating Blu-Ray into the PS3 will save the format.

[92miata]

lets see....

upconverting dvd player 79.99. dvd's average 10 bucks or so.

i think i will stick with this for a LONG, LONG time.

unless they lose the drm. and i know this is why they are pushing blue-ray and hd dvd.....:)

[Vandenh]

I am just gonna fly out to Poland and check out the Bluray collection of Borys :)

[Heretic Machine]

You know, you'd think companies could just pay me a retainer so I can tell them this shit a year in advance.

[Grimmjow]

i have my doubts about them failing. 1 will fail but not both,doesnt make any sense for both to fail and go back to DL-DVD.bunch of time wasted and money on both companies....just give it time

[92miata]

the mindblowing thing about both formats is the hdcp thing. just about the entire world is going to have to update their video card, monitor, and tv just to play these damn things. i really don't understand what these companies are thinking. and they will surely blame piracy if they don't sell. people have less money right now. gas prices are way up, everything is way up in price. i have much less for entertainment money than i did a year ago. life is getting really expensive. movies and games are extras, not necessary for life.

[Serapth]

Anyone else find it odd the Toshiba is both the primary backer of HD-DVD *and* one of the 3 major people behind the Cell processor?

[Citizen Philip]

They will do their best to screw the consumer in favour of protecting their vested interested in related media (music and movies). Which isn't that surprising. A quieter example is that of the LCD and CRT monitor. A CRT monitor is superior to LCD in every respect except for: size & weight, energy requirement, and precise pixels on screen. Better image quality, better greyscale, better refresh, multiple resolutions, etc.

You can fit only 40 CRT in an overseas shipping crate or you can put in 75 LCD at half the weight. So the companies are going to do their best to deepsix the CRT because they can get more bang for the buck with an LCD.

I know some places the size of a CRT is inconvient, but not at the loss of all of those features they do so well. The only real selling feature an LCD has is being slim, it's fatboy cousin is the real stallion.

-No. I do not know how they ship things oversea, so my numbers were arbitrary.

[bapenguin]

Anyone else find it odd the Toshiba is both the primary backer of HD-DVD *and* one of the 3 major people behind the Cell processor?

Proof of how big these companies really are.

[bapenguin]

the mindblowing thing about both formats is the hdcp thing. just about the entire world is going to have to update their video card, monitor, and tv just to play these damn things. i really don't understand what these companies are thinking. and they will surely blame piracy if they don't sell. people have less money right now. gas prices are way up, everything is way up in price. i have much less for entertainment money than i did a year ago. life is getting really expensive. movies and games are extras, not necessary for life.

It's the only reason these next-gen formats are coming out. Hollywood wants better copy-protection. They don't give a rats ass about the HD stuff, they are simply using it as cover.

[Rakael]

I just don't give a shit anymore. It looks like I'll just start pirating everything instead of allowing companies to tell me when and how I can watch a movie I paid for. Fuck em all.

[Mason]

Sony made a killing when they were one of the first to popularize the DVD+/-R drives. I wouldn't be remotely surprised that they'd try and be the first to market with a dual HD-DVD/BR solution.

Yes, this would be one part of Sony competing with the other (drive division vs BluRay licensing), but that's hardly a new phenomenon.

[yNot]

I thought the DRM implementation required HDMI specifically, thus DVI inputs would be insufficient as well. Am I mistaken?

[92miata]

some, very few dvi inputs have hdcp. most DO NOT. do a search on firing squad for hdcp monitors and they give reviews on 10 hdcp computer monitors. that is it. chances are if you have a dvi input for your computer monitor right now, it WILL NOT work. absolutely mindblowing. and i am sure this crap will be cracked.

[Rakael]

These corporations tend to forget that without the customer, they have nothing. Period. If they keep working to piss off the people who make them what they are, they will crumble and fall. Even the common Joe is starting to get really peeved about all this. Especially if they drop $4k on a TV, only to have it not work with the fancy new BR/HD-DVD player they bought.

[Rakael]

I just do not get it. How can a customer-service based business choose to piss on the heads of its customers? Its fucking mindblowing.

If I open a store, and yell at everyone who comes in and call them all fuckers, I won't make a dime. It is the same shit going on here...how do they stay in business??

[92miata]

the same reason that "bulletproof" sells over a million copies and "Psychonauts" sells two hundred. people are brainwashed by the television. or just stupid. or probably a little of both. human beings are very easy to manipulate.....

just not myself.....:)

[ruprect]

I have taken a great amount of time over the past few years building a mid-range setup with an HD TV and a 5.1 surround sound system. I was initially excited about HD players. But now, with the projected prices and the availability of a lot of the recent movie releases in HD from my cable provider, I am more and more apathetic.

It isn't worth it to me to pay more than $20 to own a movie, or to pay a premium to rent a movie. Also, the player prices are just rediculous. Anything over $200 until they fight this last format war isn't worth it to me, and even thats pushing it.

Given all the HD content I now have on cable, and given that I can record it and watch it on our movie nights, HD media just doesn't have the same appeal to me any more.

My hope is that this just pushes the in-home providers to improve their content, thus making the HD format unnecessary for most.

[Lord Dongkey]

On a 53 inch JVC HD tv...

Progressive scan = teh win.

Look at the numbers here.. you have progressive scan, let's say, at:

80% of teh purdy.
Cost: $69.99

Then we have Blu-ray...

100% of teh purdy
$400 (for PS3, and I'm undershooting.)

Being very conservative and in favor of the Ps3 on these numbers, it appears they're expecting us to pay 571% for a 20% increase in picture quality.

Now isn't that interesting. How's about a no?

[Roc Ingersol]

It's like I've been saying: This isn't VHS v Beta; it's S-VHS v ED-Beta.

[nemyhlovecraft]

4. Digital distribution will become more and more viable as broadband and video codecs continue to improve.

I kinda think this would be the only main reason Blu-ray and HD DVD would fail. I don't think the public would get too confused by dueling formats, because many similar audio and video technologies have come to compete and the public/studio execs end up making their decisions early on. Oddly enough several of the ones to fail were Sony's (Betamax, MiniDisc, UMD?). On the other hand, there is market penetration. Like Yeti said, maybe ~7% penetration for HDTV right now. It would take a real videophile to pay Sony prices for a slice of "true digital high definition video" at this point. Still, I think that when HD really ramps up, it will all be about non-physical distribution. Its becoming more controllable, higher quality, and more convenient for content creators and consumers to avoid the CD/DVD printing process. As much as people give it flak, take a good long look at iTunes Media Store. That is where media is headed.

[johnperkins21]

On a 53 inch JVC HD tv...

Progressive scan = teh win.

Look at the numbers here.. you have progressive scan, let's say, at:

80% of teh purdy.
Cost: $69.99

Then we have Blu-ray...

100% of teh purdy
$400 (for PS3, and I'm undershooting.)

Being very conservative and in favor of the Ps3 on these numbers, it appears they're expecting us to pay 571% for a 20% increase in picture quality.

Ummm.... 80% of the purdy? Where do you get that? You're talking about 480i being upconverted to 480p by the DVD Player, then upconverted to 720p or 1080i by your TV. So it's still only a 480i image. Even if the source starts out at 480p, it's a 40% increase in resolution. You can not tell me that the jump from 480i native to 720p native is only 20%. Just by looking at it I see a good 50% increase in picture quality.

Plus, I bought my first DVD player for $600 (Panasonic A-100U) back in 1996. A similar machine now would run for about $50. All new technologies are expensive when they first come out, it's the nature of the beast.

I am not very excited about the DRM, but I am definitely excited about the HD content. I have not seen how good HD can be yet, as my local channels throttle the bitrate at a max of 13 mbits. So, to see what BD and HD-DVD will have to offer at 18+ will be freaking awesome!

[AntB]

Where was that side by side comparison of HD Lord of the Rings VS. the DVD Lord of the Rings, the difference was like looking at a callphone camera pic and a digital camera pic. You guys just haven't seen real HD yet.

[Lord Dongkey]

Ummm.... 80% of the purdy? Where do you get that? You're talking about 480i being upconverted to 480p by the DVD Player, then upconverted to 720p or 1080i by your TV. So it's still only a 480i image. Even if the source starts out at 480p, it's a 40% increase in resolution. You can not tell me that the jump from 480i native to 720p native is only 20%. Just by looking at it I see a good 50% increase in picture quality.

Dear Sir Semantic,

While the ratio of raw pixel count of a 720p signal, as well as the refresh/media content displayed, does not mathematically come out as a 20% increase, my point is more in reference to discernable difference to the naked eye. It's the same argument some people make that a game running at 110 fps is fundamentally much better than a game running at 60 fps.

That, and it was a post made partially in jest. God forbid.

My point remains fundamentally the same - the technology is going to have to be out for a LONG time, and adopted universally by pretty much all players in the market, to make the economies of scale and production costs drop enough to get the ratio of price differential ANYWHERE NEAR THE DIFFERENCE IN PICTURE QUALITY.

Yes, hi-def is better. No, I'm not willing to sacrifice an assload of money for a small payoff. And neither are most consumers.

[Zeal]

Once optical broadband is the consumer standard, physical media is a thing of the past. A differnet network or harddrive holding your data will be irrelevant, because it can be accessed in realtime.

When you download at speeds of 10-20+ megabytes per second, it doesn't really matter.

[Yeti2005]

By the way, it MIGHT be possible to get full resolution from the next gen DVD players through component outputs. There's an article on CNET with a Q/A with Toshiba. One of the questions was will component outputs give the full resolution and the answer was the players CAN downconvert the signal but it's up to each studio to decide if they want to or not.

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449-6446304.html?tag=cnetfd.sd

So in the end, the whole HDMI/DVI with HDCP MAY not be an issue. I could see them start by releasing disks that support component but as time goes by switching to HDMI/DVI with HDCP as that becomes the norm.

[KhitomerRouge]

By the way, it MIGHT be possible to get full resolution from the next gen DVD players through component outputs. There's an article on CNET with a Q/A with Toshiba. One of the questions was will component outputs give the full resolution and the answer was the players CAN downconvert the signal but it's up to each studio to decide if they want to or not.

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449-6446304.html?tag=cnetfd.sd

So in the end, the whole HDMI/DVI with HDCP MAY not be an issue. I could see them start by releasing disks that support component but as time goes by switching to HDMI/DVI with HDCP as that becomes the norm.You're talking about the Image Constraint Token (ICT), which is on a studio-by-studio and title-by-title basis. As it stands now, the studios that want ICT include two of the three HD DVD studios (Warner and their only exclusive: Universal), and two of the seven Blu-Ray studios (Warner and Disney). Fox, who's Blu-Ray only, says they're no fan of the ICT, but they're behind BD+. BD+ supposedly disables hacked players on an individual basis (i.e. one at a time), rather than across the whole spectrum (i.e. an entire model line). Sure, it's an extra copy protection scheme, but I'd rather they disable just DVD Jon's player than every single player that's the same model as his. Tough luck if you've got an HD DVD player, since they don't have that provision.

[MojoJojo]

Do any TVs on the market come with more than one HDMI connection?

[SMES]

Where was that side by side comparison of HD Lord of the Rings VS. the DVD Lord of the Rings, the difference was like looking at a callphone camera pic and a digital camera pic. You guys just haven't seen real HD yet.

I haven't seen that. I hope someone digs up a link.

[Balthasar]

As much as people give it flak, take a good long look at iTunes Media Store. That is where media is headed.
1. Everything that can be purchaced on the iTunes store is DRM protected. Everything.

2.Please let me know when full length movies become available on the store. Then, maybe, I can start believing digital content distribution will actually overlap Blu-Ray/HD-DVD on the marketplace. This argument irks me to no end because it never occurs to people that the same studios who support content protection like the one theoretically possible with HDMI (those scumbags!) would be the ones supposedly supporting your ability to carry around raw HD copies of their 100 million dollar movies.

Were you all the same people holding your breath for highways in the sky swarming with flying cars that were promised for the year 2000?

[Balthasar]

Once optical broadband is the consumer standard, physical media is a thing of the past. A differnet network or harddrive holding your data will be irrelevant, because it can be accessed in realtime.

When you download at speeds of 10-20+ megabytes per second, it doesn't really matter.
Another winning pipe-dream. Few points here:

1)How quickly do you expect optical broadband to become a standard when the current form of broadband isn't even the standard?

2)Since when did the consumer become okay with not actually owning their media? Whether it's on a disc or on a harddrive, people still like to be able to say "this is my content, for me to move wherever I like, and access whenever I want." It's entirely possible people will be okay with having to go through a middleman to get to their movies whenever they want to watch it, but I don't see where you get the evidence to even suggest the consumer will be okay with it. Will studios begin guaranteeing lifetime access to the servers? Or will they charge you a monthly fee to access movies you paid for? Remember DIVX?

It's certainly possible both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will fall flat on their collective faces. I guess it's also possible no one will ever buy HD TVs to use their HDMI imputs to see these new videos properly. But it's odd, at best, to expect these same people to fork over whatever cash will be necessary for the new premium in internet access when current broadband is more than adequate for a majority of users--who still, by the way, make up what percentage of internet users? Has it reached 50% in the US yet?

I have a headache.

[bapenguin]

Another winning pipe-dream. Few points here:

1)How quickly do you expect optical broadband to become a standard when the current form of broadband isn't even the standard?



I know Verizon plans to hit something like 80% of their customers by 2010 with their FIOS service.

[Balthasar]

I know Verizon plans to hit something like 80% of their customers by 2010 with their FIOS service.
Will the optical service cost the same price as the current service? Also, 2010 is quite a while from now. I would be shocked if this estimate doesn't change as we get closer.

[TrackZero]

i really don't understand what these companies are thinking.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

That's what they're thinking. Since the entire thing is pretty much a screwjob for the consumer (DRM, required purchase of new TVs, players, computer component upgrades, increased price, etc), I hope they both fail, personally.

[Heretic Machine]

What is the wave of the future? DVD's are the wave of the fucking future. No one, except hard-core enthusiasts, want a new format.

[bapenguin]

Will the optical service cost the same price as the current service? Also, 2010 is quite a while from now. I would be shocked if this estimate doesn't change as we get closer.

Their low tier service right now costs $34.99. While not cheap by any means, they literally only started rolling FIOS out a year or so ago. In that year time they've hit something like 20% of their customer base.

2010 is closer than you think, 3 1/2 or so years isn't that long of a time period. In fact, if Blu-Ray and/or HD-DVD do succeed that would probably be the time they hit mainstream.

[Balthasar]

Their low tier service right now costs $34.99. While not cheap by any means, they literally only started rolling FIOS out a year or so ago. In that year time they've hit something like 20% of their customer base.
20% of what slice of the pie is my point here. Before we can start thinking about optical being the standard, people have to get off dialup, which they aren't doing at a fast enough rate.

2010 is closer than you think, 3 1/2 or so years isn't that long of a time period. In fact, if Blu-Ray and/or HD-DVD do succeed that would probably be the time they hit mainstream.
I just see far too many obstacles in the way of true downloadable movie content. Unless you're okay with services like HBO on Demand, which are already out on the market.

[Yeti2005]

I just see far too many obstacles in the way of true downloadable movie content. Unless you're okay with services like HBO on Demand, which are already out on the market.

People said that about downloadable music a few years back. "Not enough people have broadband...It will too expensive...I want to take my music whereever I go...etc"

[Balthasar]

People said that about downloadable music a few years back. "Not enough people have broadband...It will too expensive...I want to take my music whereever I go...etc"
Considering that you're talking as far back as 1999, when people were already stealing music with their modems en masse, I'm not really sure how it's comparable. Downloading music was already possible with existing technology. It didn't require an overhaul of our telecommunications system, or a new computer, or a new internet connection.

[Heretic Machine]

Considering that you're talking as far back as 1999, when people were already stealing music with their modems en masse, I'm not really sure how it's comparable. Downloading music was already possible with existing technology. It didn't require an overhaul of our telecommunications system, or a new computer, or a new internet connection.

People are stealing movies today, with existing technology.

[Balthasar]

People are stealing movies today, with existing technology.
Oh, come on now, it has never been to the scale of pre and post-Napster. It's not even close.

[the Rephr]

Once optical broadband is the consumer standard, physical media is a thing of the past. A differnet network or harddrive holding your data will be irrelevant, because it can be accessed in realtime.

When you download at speeds of 10-20+ megabytes per second, it doesn't really matter.


you must mean 10-20+ megabits. Megabytes is storage capacity and a different standard of measurement than the megabit that your lan cards and high speed interent service provider use to tell you the maximum rate of data transfer you can send and recieve. To the best of my knowledge the best speed you can get downstream out of cable is 8Mbs ( megabits per second )

[the Rephr]

The only reason I have pointed this out is HD movies will be much much larger that DVD movies. DVD= about 9 gig double layered and a single HD-DVD disc will hold 25 gig and a BRD will hold about 30 gig. SO I would like for any one to crank up that big nasty rig they have built and start downloading. in 5 years when its done I could have walked to your house from mine and we can wach a 5 year old movie together.

[nemyhlovecraft]

1. Everything that can be purchaced on the iTunes store is DRM protected. Everything.

2.Please let me know when full length movies become available on the store. Then, maybe, I can start believing digital content distribution will actually overlap Blu-Ray/HD-DVD on the marketplace. This argument irks me to no end because it never occurs to people that the same studios who support content protection like the one theoretically possible with HDMI (those scumbags!) would be the ones supposedly supporting your ability to carry around raw HD copies of their 100 million dollar movies.

Were you all the same people holding your breath for highways in the sky swarming with flying cars that were promised for the year 2000?

Of course its DRM protected. I think that part of my arguement was that technology is getting to the point where media is CONTROLLABLE. Honestly, I wasn't saying "free movies for everone over the magical interweb". I was saying that physical media is going to fall of. Just look at cable companies offering "On Demand" service. Same price as rental, except you don't have to go out an get the disc.

[Balthasar]

Of course its DRM protected. I think that part of my arguement was that technology is getting to the point where media is CONTROLLABLE. Honestly, I wasn't saying "free movies for everone over the magical interweb". I was saying that physical media is going to fall of.
My point is that we are a long way off from seeing HD movies distributed digitally.