Oblivion Pre-Impressions at Wired [Archive]

DigiWiz

02-26-2006, 07:20 PM

Okay, it's not the most professional review (http://blog.wired.com/games/index.blog?entry_id=1422030), but it seems to be an honest opinion and not just the usual PR from the usual suspects.

The author writes about both positive,

If I felt like it, I could have spent another hour or so just screwing around with Oblivion's character-creation system.
and negative;

As you walk around, the ground teems with individually rendered blades of grass, bushes, mushrooms, all sorts of stuff. But only a small radius around your character is fully realized -- the rest of it is drawn in, quite visibly, as you move around
but more interesting than the review itself is the shitstorm coming from rabid fanboy (or paid ad execs?) who notably haven't played the game, instead accuse the reviewer of not having played and of wanting to generate attention.

wudi

02-26-2006, 08:02 PM

Hmm...all that talk of draw distance and buildings just popping in has shaken my confidence in Oblivion. It just went from a "definite buy" to a "I'll wait for a review...or five."

KDups

02-26-2006, 08:06 PM

This is awesome. Can't wait to go read the fallout from this.

Rirath

02-26-2006, 08:07 PM

There's far, far, far more previews than just this one guy, and most of them are quite positive. Out of all the reviews to link to, probably more than 20, I can't imagine why you picked this one. It's getting a storm not because of rabid fanboys, but because it's just not very good. My favorite is like an hour and forty minute podcast over at GamerAndy.com where two guys just sit and talk about what they played, but it also has a bit of misinformation since it's rather unprofessional.

That said, the draw-in seems like it's real to some extent. Grass OBVIOUSLY becomes more detailed as you get near to it, no computer could do such detail at such draw distances. Worse however is that there seems to be at least some building pop, and some small loading chugs. We'll, of course, have to wait and see.

Seriously though, It's not flawless. It's not some magical super-tech. But it still looks to be one downright amazing game.

DigiWiz

02-26-2006, 08:08 PM

"There's far, far, far more previews than just this one guy...

That is really the interesting question now. Whether or not all the "professional" hands on reviews seen over the weekend had just had better builds of the game (because, you know, publishers make sure to send out crappy builds to bloggers and the really good stuff to the pro sites :p) and they didn't have these issues or if they were afraid of being cut out of the PR cycle by Bethsoft if they actually posted about the issues ("You knew it was not the final game, how dare you to write about performance issues..."). Wouldn't be the first time ... anyone remember Command and Conquer: TS and how everyone wrote how cool the game would be and reviewed features that were magically missing from the final game?

Or maybe those authors were just way too afraid of the fanboy shitstorm to make a mention of those issues, which sound like they are quite hard to miss. The author of this article certainly learned his lesson today, he's probably getting hatemail and phonecalls by now.

Wudi, I'm sure within the next 20 minutes, some nice fanboys will come over and help you to restore your confidence level in the game, if necessary with a crowbar to the head :p

thecrazyd

02-26-2006, 08:08 PM

That. Mother. Fucker.

Seriously, I do not trust previews of any game that do not mention anything negative. This is why I rarely read previews, as it is nothing but a couple pages of sucking the publishers cock.

Rirath

02-26-2006, 08:11 PM

The really interesting question is now whether or not all the "professional" hands on reviews seen over the weekend had better "builds" of the game and they didn't have these issues or if they were afraid of being cut out of the PR cycle by Bethsoft if they actually posted about the issues ("You knew it was not the final game, how dare you to write about performance issues...").

Man, are you just trying to spread junk or what? There's been PR events in different cities all week by the TES guys on TES hardware that these guys went to. This wasn't sent to them at the office or anything, they simply wasn't allowed to publish the info until Saturday, after the tour. Of course they all had the same build, on the same hardware.

DigiWiz

02-26-2006, 08:20 PM

Man, are you just trying to spread junk or what?
Ever heard of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm). I will try to make it more obvious the next time.

No need to get aggressive in any case.

I'm not bashing the game, I'm just pointing out that there was a knee jerk reaction from people who have not played the game to an article by someone who has played the game and that these people obviously don't like to read something negative about it, because, you know, they haven't played it, but the guy just must be lying, otherwise they would look stupid for hyping and defending an game with flaws (omg!) for years.

This happens before every major game release these days. People become fanboys, people hype it, people don't want to hear the warnings and then they either get disenchanted or they stick with it and defend it to death. Been there, done that, like most of us.

I hope Oblivion will be cool, it has been years since Morrowind and I'm ready for another open world RPG. However, after Daggerfall and Morrowind, I,having not played the game, know better than to attack someone who has played the game over issues that sounds like the very kind of issues that you would expect from such a game and from Bethesda.

<sarcasm> Shocking, HD Next Gen games having visual glitches and bugs, how dare he to suggest that.</sarcasm>

And with the recent discussion about "paid people to hype games" ... after reading some of those comments, you really have to ask the question if these people are just angry fanboys ("You are just a PS3 fanboi!" -- funny because the game will come out on PS3 as well...) or paid infiltrators trying to undermine the authors credibility to avoid damage to the PR campaign.

The only question that really remains for me is whether or not the PC version will be crippled on purpose so it does not work better than the 360 version, because that would be the last thing MS would need right now, the game's streaming to perform better on a system with 1-2gigs of memory than on a 500mb memory console.

Rirath

02-26-2006, 08:30 PM

The only question that really remains for me is whether or not the PC version will be crippled on purpose so it does not work better than the 360 version, because that would be the last thing MS would need right now.

If this isn't more so called sarcasm, I'll save you the time: No. Bethesda just aren't the kind of folks who would do that. Several places sent two guys, one for each system, and said both were about the same but still had slight advantages/disadvantages.

Krom

02-26-2006, 08:33 PM

The only question that really remains for me is whether or not the PC version will be crippled on purpose so it does not work better than the 360 version, because that would be the last thing MS would need right now, the game's streaming to perform better on a system with 1-2gigs of memory than on a 500mb memory console.

Aren't alot of reviewers already saying the PC version runs slightly better than the 360?

DigiWiz

02-26-2006, 08:36 PM

If this isn't more so called sarcasm, I'll save you the time: No. Bethesda just aren't the kind of folks who would do that. Several places sent two guys, one for each system, and said both were about the same but still had slight advantages/disadvantages.

Sorry, but "not the kind of folks" is not a very convicing argument, especially if MS is involved. I hope that you are right, but I'll rather wait for more reviews on this game now instead of preordering it. We're talking about business here, not about humanity. "Not the kind of folks" is something that has weight if you personally know people, but not about companies. I'm sure some people also said that Google "aren't the kind of folks to sell out their principles to china".

It is nice of you to save me some time by answering the question, but from the sounds of it you are not qualified to answer it, unless you actually have played both versions, which, of course, you would have disclosed here to avoid appearing as a subterfuge ad exec, right? :p

Back to the topic of the issues brought up. Anyone played GUN on the 360? Anyone noticed how it had the same issues described in that hands on? World loading in too slow, obvious lodding, etc? Now granted, gun was a last gen game ported to the 360, but still, another open world game with the kind of issues you expect from these games. Come on, even San Andreas had these issues, on all systems, it's just stupid to expect them to go away in the shiny next generation and to grill a poor reviewer for noticing them. We should be grilling those other reviewers instead for not mentioning them.

Funny thing that the whole hype around HD and Next Gen could actually come back to bite the console manufacturers because people actually believed their promises about Next Gen. Well, it worked for Sony with the PS2 ("photo realistic real time graphics!"), why shouldn't it work for both of them again?

DigiWiz

02-26-2006, 08:37 PM

Aren't alot of reviewers already saying the PC version runs slightly better than the 360?

I haven't seen that, mind to list some links?

jacktion

02-26-2006, 08:37 PM

This guys blog is noteworthy because it is not mindless hype marketing like every other games journalist out there. He actually points out problems and criticizes the product. That is why they are called critics.

It sounds like this game has some issues. Stuttering framerates and building popup is not acceptable in this day and age. If you can't even eliminate the pop-up then you probably need to scale back the freckles on the ogre's ass a bit. What good is being able to count the hairs on an insect if the game can't even run right?

Yeah, it is first gen but damn. Just give me a solid framerate at least. That is basic shit. I knew there was too much hype for this game for it to be good.

Krom

02-26-2006, 08:46 PM

I haven't seen that, mind to list some links?

http://pc.ign.com/articles/691/691594p1.html

The reviewer says something about it around the second paragraph. He doesn't really expand on it but says the PC version looks slightly better. Probably nothing worth worrying about though.

Heretic Machine

02-26-2006, 08:49 PM

You know, as a huge fan of TES, and someone who is looking forward to this game... I find it reasonable to say some bad things about it. Especially this early on. I expect several patches in just the first few months if this game is to be anything decent at all, considering the developer.

TES is not about coded perfection. It never was. It's about fun, immersion, and freedom.

ezra

02-26-2006, 08:49 PM

Hmm...all that talk of draw distance and buildings just popping in has shaken my confidence in Oblivion. It just went from a "definite buy" to a "I'll wait for a review...or five."

You're not going to buy oblivion because of a minor graphical issue?

Talk about missing the forest for the trees. Pun intended.

DigiWiz

02-26-2006, 08:50 PM

This guys blog is noteworthy because it is not mindless hype marketing like every other games journalist out there. He actually points out problems and criticizes the product. That is why they are called critics.

Amen!

The reviewer says something about it around the second paragraph. He doesn't really expand on it but says the PC version looks slightly better. Probably nothing worth worrying about though.

Thanks Krom. There's hope...

I expect several patches in just the first few months if this game is to be anything decent at all, considering the developer

Horray for the 360...

DigiWiz

02-26-2006, 08:51 PM

You're not going to buy oblivion because of a minor graphical issue?

Talk about missing the forest for the trees. Pun intended.

I think he said "wait for a few reviews before buying". I wonder how that qualifies as not going to buy it....

Also, from the article, it seems that it might be quite possible to miss the forest for the trees, since they're loading in too slow :p If you did read the article, I'm not sure how you see the things described as "minor graphical issues", they seemed to be quite substantial.

grimjoe

02-26-2006, 08:51 PM

expect patches that fix technical issues that come up and also new drivers from both ATI and nvidia that will iron out some graphical bugs

ezra

02-26-2006, 08:54 PM

I think he said "wait for a few reviews before buying". I wonder how that qualifies as not going to buy it....

Also, from the article, it seems that it might be quite possible to miss the forest for the trees, since they're loading in too slow :p

He said he'd need to see some reviews to decided whether or not to buy it. In other words, need to see confirmation or debunkage of these technical glitches - therefore if he didnt buy it, it would be due to this issue.

Reed

02-26-2006, 08:55 PM

There's far, far, far more previews than just this one guy, and most of them are quite positive.
That means nothing, virtually all previews are positive for all games, period.

If anything, this lends more credibility to his preview as a whole since he's actually being critical. Imagine that!

DigiWiz

02-26-2006, 08:56 PM

He said he'd need to see some reviews to decided whether or not to buy it. In other words, need to see confirmation or debunkage of these technical glitches - therefore if he didnt buy it, it would be due to this issue.

Sounds like a smart move to me, not sure if I would want to pun him into buying something that might have serious defects :p

ezra

02-26-2006, 08:59 PM

Sounds like a smart move to me, not sure if I would want to pun him into buying something that might have serious defects :p

Yeah, I know. Im just saying that in a game about huge gameworlds and roleplaying, etc, a minor graphical issue shouldnt be the deciding factor on purchase. But to each their own.

DigiWiz

02-26-2006, 09:04 PM

Some more on the topics from the GamersWithJobs hands-on

http://www.gamerswithjobs.com/node/22390?from=90&comments_per_page=30

Sadly, the beast that has plagued gaming for so long still roams the countryside in Oblivion. More frequently than I’d like, when running through the lavishly detailed countryside, the game will halt for a second or two, indicating that it is loading more of the area before picking up again. It’s not a game-breaking problem, and for me, it was not much more than a minor annoyance. However, if you go running through the countryside for five minutes, you will see at least five “Loading Area” prompts pop up.

Where the problem is most pronounced however, is inside of cities. Upon entering a city, and any building within a city, you’ll have to wait while the game loads the area. It’s not an agonizingly long time to wait, but the load times are comparable (roughly) to those of GTA: San Andreas for the PS2, which is a bit disappointing.

The funny thing is that even with the hands on being more positive than wired one, the rabid attackers are out in force on the author for posting such heretic things as quoted above.

and more big picture, from gamersmark.com

... while the frame rate seems to hold up well, when running across the game’s gargantuan fields, objects and areas are constantly being loaded, which causes an unpleasant stutter in gameplay.

Morrowind was known to have loading issues of this sort but they seem to be even more of hassle in Oblivion than in the previous game, mostly due to the fact that while on horseback loading sections are encountered like every eight seconds. In addition to this, some of the textures on a character’s clothing weren’t that great in quality and you could really see the ugliness of it up close, and still an issue from Morrowind is the game’s unnatural animations. They just don’t seem very lifelike and it makes me think that more game developers should take note of the masterful animation work of the PS2’s Shadow of the Colossus.

loading every 8 seconds on horseback? Imagine driving around GTA...

It is worth noticing that the bigger sites that posted their hands on previews over the weekend are either not mentioning graphics performance at all (nice way to avoid annoying Bethsoft and the fans) or just write everything is nice and stable, while the smaller sites seem to list more issues they encountered. Maybe they're not dependent so much on ad money, who knows.

Edit: And one more, this time from 1up.

Just an hour in, Oblivion feels more like a fairy tale than a game, and the first time that falters is when you look up at the grassy area that's a good distance away, and the area looks...bad. Without the close-up attention that generates the plants swaying under you, and too close to be concealed by trees, the grassy hills just across the pond from you look like broad swathes of poorly textured green.

Namielus

02-26-2006, 09:17 PM

Read over the comments on the article and saw this gem "...Seriously... as a reviewer your given a wipped together beta version at best, you can't judge it past the content at this point. " (Fourth or so, comment from the top)

Now I understand that the devolpers are still devolping... but when you invite people to review your product... shouldn't they expect every little bug to be pulled out into the light and shown for the errors that it contains. How many of these bugs do we see in final products that were visible in the demos?

Now this is an good preview/critique of the game. It lets me know that the reviewer was so adjusted to the machinics of the game he didn't think of noting them. This I like, provided his story wasn't trimed :). The more natural the games feel to interact in the higher chance I'm going to get lost battling rats because rats need battling!

As for the complaints I think they are well founded, I used to do 3d graphics and whenever I see artifacting in a game or rendering short cuts that pull from the quality it gets me. Lowering model detail and enviroment detail should be a valid options to increase performance, one of the reasons these framerate issues don't scare me so much as I'm on a PC (and its a highend little box).

Aside from the computer stance, if the product is to be launched on a Xbox 360 it damn well better look good on a 360. Microsoft would skin devolpers if they stunded market growth by making everyone see Xbox throwbacks on the lastest hardware.

UnderHero5

02-26-2006, 09:25 PM

The complaints seem perfectly possible to me. Morrowind ran like crap on most PC's when it came out. Hell, it still runs like crap on my Athlon 64. The Elder Scrolls games are awesome, but Morrowind wasn't exactly known for being a technical masterpeice. I can say it's a very "messy" game when you're playing it. Lacking a lot of polish and it just feels sloppy a lot of the time. That doesn't stop it from being amazing.

I'm no coder (know nothing of it) but I can say that Morrowind felt like it had some VERY sloppy code. I expect the same thing out of Oblivion.

That's not going to stop me from picking it up the day it launches though. I just hope it doesn't rape my 6800 GT too hard.

wudi

02-26-2006, 09:39 PM

Yeah, I know. Im just saying that in a game about huge gameworlds and roleplaying, etc, a minor graphical issue shouldnt be the deciding factor on purchase. But to each their own.

I probably was a bit quick to judge based off of one preview in a sea of many, ezra, you're right. The list of pros still far outweight the cons of Oblivion for me, and I'll still most likely buy it. It just so happened that that was the first preview I read since the embargo was lifted, and it kind of put me in the wrong frame of mind.

Nath5000

02-26-2006, 09:52 PM

Er, am I the only one who could care less if it loaded every 2 seconds and had a view distance of 5 feet? Since when was the elder scrolls all about graphics anyway? If I could rate the 5 coolest things I was looking forward to in oblivion graphics wouldnt even make the list, there are too many other cool things that will make this game good and/or better than morrowind or previous TES games.

Deadend

02-26-2006, 10:01 PM

I think everyone is being hard on it out of love. Lots of tough love for Oblivion. Even though I do think that problems in preview builds should be noted, espically of the 'not gamebreaking and possibly too minor to fix but still annoying' kind.

If you notice, all of the previews are favorable, even the ones that point out flaws. All the flaws they have pointed out are graphical as well, or realted to loading, this is probably a good thing.

Intruder

02-26-2006, 10:09 PM

As long as it is a 1/4 as fun as Morrowind then I will be having the time of my life playing it. Morrowind was by no means a bug free or technically perfect game, but look at the fun it brought.

UnderHero5

02-26-2006, 10:11 PM

Er, am I the only one who could care less if it loaded every 2 seconds and had a view distance of 5 feet?
Well, if it was THAT bad it would surely get in the way of the gameplay.
After all... loading times aren't exactly a graphical problem. The game might be loading graphics, but load times break up the gameplay.

However, it seems like the load times every minute or so here are more like breif pauses. A lot like the ones in Morrowind if you went too fast on foot. And they were nothing horrible.
If there's a pause every 20 seconds just while walking about though... that would definitely start to get annoying quick.

TheLengua

02-26-2006, 10:16 PM

I hace played all versions computr, 360, ps3, revolution. I will tell you now what is hapening SONYVIL (sony + evil = sonyvil get it?) is teh haxxoring. 360 4EVAR

Mason

02-26-2006, 10:18 PM

If anything that has been said so far ruined your impression of the game, your expectations were unrealistic.

Achilles

02-26-2006, 10:18 PM

Sounds like they were looking at the PC version.

thecrazyd

02-26-2006, 10:24 PM

Sounds like they were looking at the PC version.
What tipped you off, the many mentions that it was the 360 version? Or was it the complete lack of even mentioning that there was a PC version?

Mason

02-26-2006, 10:29 PM

Developer Bethesda says the world of Oblivion is about sixteen square miles large, and I have no reason to doubt that from what I played. Imagine walking sixteen miles in real life. That's how long it would take you to walk from place to place in Oblivion.

This guy is clearly a genius.

Achilles

02-26-2006, 10:30 PM

What tipped you off, the many mentions that it was the 360 version? Or was it the complete lack of even mentioning that there was a PC version?Nah it reads like he was playing the 360 version, but he’s so incredibly wrong on so many things that I just assume it was the PC version. Not that you have to believe me any more than this guy, but give it a rent when it comes out.

thecrazyd

02-26-2006, 10:38 PM

Nah it reads like he was playing the 360 version, but he’s so incredibly wrong on so many things that I just assume it was the PC version. Not that you have to believe me any more than this guy, but give it a rent when it comes out.
So, you have played it? How does the frame rate hold up? Does the loading act as he described? What about the draw distance? Do you spend the first hour or so fighting rats?

Achilles

02-26-2006, 10:43 PM

So, you have played it? How does the frame rate hold up? Does the loading act as he described? What about the draw distance? Do you spend the first hour or so fighting rats?Not that I'll admit to. Yes, extremely well given how the game looks, even on horseback. The draw distance is great in most areas, sometimes you catch it drawing in, but not often, and it usually happens on cities. And no you don't spend the first hour or so fighting rats, it actually has a rather exciting first couple hours, much better than the previous Elder Scrolls games.

thecrazyd

02-26-2006, 10:50 PM

Not that I'll admit to. Yes, extremely well given how the game looks, even on horseback. The draw distance is great in most areas, sometimes you catch it drawing in, but not often, and it usually happens on cities. And no you don't spend the first hour or so fighting rats, it actually has a rather exciting first couple hours, much better than the previous Elder Scrolls games.
So, write up a preview for us. Give me something to compare this to.

DigiWiz

02-26-2006, 10:53 PM

Not that I'll admit to. Yes, extremely well given how the game looks, even on horseback. The draw distance is great in most areas, sometimes you catch it drawing in, but not often, and it usually happens on cities. And no you don't spend the first hour or so fighting rats, it actually has a rather exciting first couple hours, much better than the previous Elder Scrolls games.

So you did not play it and you tell a guy who actually played it that he has soo many things wrong and you tell us how much better than previous ES games Oblivion is.

So where do you get that certainty, I mean, without having played it. The tooth fairy?

Achilles

02-26-2006, 10:53 PM

So, write up a preview for us. Give me something to compare this to.Why would I do that, I haven't even played it. :p

Seriously, it'll be out soon enough, don't take it off your list because of this guy's drunken pre-impressions.

DigiWiz

02-26-2006, 10:56 PM

Why would I do that, I haven't even played it. :p

Seriously, it'll be out soon enough, don't take it off your list because of this guy's drunken pre-impressions.

Are you, by any chance, paid to post this? How can you tell us "Yes, extremely well given how the game looks, even on horseback." if you have seen only PR released material? How can you discredit a review based on an actual hands on with the game if you haven't played it?

This sounds exactly like what people were posting about Fable, pre release, and look how that turned out.

Trying to discredit the author of that review as drunken without having the game played yourself might work on the ES boards, but it does not work here.

Best gem yet: http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=246819 It's not bethesda, it's us for having crappy machines!!!

thecrazyd

02-26-2006, 10:59 PM

Why would I do that, I haven't even played it. :p

Seriously, it'll be out soon enough, don't take it off your list because of this guy's drunken pre-impressions.
Oh, come on. This guy was reasonable enough. I will probably do what I did with Morrowind: buy it on the cheap when it hits budget bin. That way, I'll get a more stable patched game, and it will be cheaper.

Mason

02-26-2006, 11:06 PM

Achilles

02-26-2006, 11:07 PM

Are you, by any chance, paid to post this? How can you tell us "Yes, extremely well given how the game looks, even on horseback." if you have seen only PR released material?

This sounds exactly like what people were posting about Fable, pre release, and look how that turned out.

Trying to discredit the author of that review as drunken without having the game played yourself might work on the ES boards, but it does not work here.Paid to post that? How about this, it's almost impossible to make something other than Ugly McGee with their character creation system. So that's another area where I disagree with the writer of the article.

The other impressions you posted more more accurate. The one from Gamerswithjobs was very good, and you can see the differences from the article that started this thread. The beginning of the game reminded them very much of Baldur's Gate 2. Did you kill a lot of rats in the beginnning of BG2?

DigiWiz

02-26-2006, 11:12 PM

Paid to post that? How about this, it's almost impossible to make something other than Ugly McGee with their character creation system. So that's another area where I disagree with the writer of the article.

The other impressions you posted more more accurate. The one from Gamerswithjobs was very good, and you can see the differences from the article that started this thread. The beginning of the game reminded them very much of Baldur's Gate 2. Did you kill a lot of rats in the beginnning of BG2?

I am waiting for your answer on how you can say someone who played it is wrong and hype it yourself without having played it. How can you disagree with someones impression of a game that he has played if you have not played it?

You don't like the opinion of the writer, and that is your right, but without having access to the same information (the playable hands on) than the writer, you can not say he is wrong.

And what has BG2 to do with it? BG2 was a continuation of another game, you started at level 7 or so, of course you did not kill rats. One could also argue that the beginning of BG2 was about the weakest part of that game, the dungeon just plain sucked.

The author did not play morrowind, so what? That still gives him the right to voice out what seem to be very valid complaints about the games technology and performance, without being called drunken, idiot or whatever.

How about this, it's almost impossible to make something other than Ugly McGee with their character creation system. So that's another area where I disagree with the writer of the article.

Did you actually make a character with the character creation system? No. Well, then how can you disagree? Screenshots? Yea, fable looked good on paper too...

Achilles

02-26-2006, 11:12 PM

1290 posts and many involved debates, damn Achilles must be dedicated to his job...

Back in reality, the truth is that the preview was written by someone who hadn't played Morrowind, and most of his criticisms and reasoning were weird. Oblivion is going to turn players off by being too realistic? He never figured out third-person mode? D&D-inspired?

The 1up preview has a detailed discussion of the draw distance, so defend that article if you want to have a firm position from which to assail any TES-fanboys. But this blog-entry preview is dumb enough that I'd give it 50/50 odds that it was a TruthMedia-style troll. Come on, the 16 miles thing?Thanks for the props Mason.

You point out a lot of other good examples of where this guy isn’t on target. The draw distance thing exists, as does the load screen thing, it's just not nearly as bad as the guy is making it out to be. It's much better than in Morrowind.

Not that I've played it. I wonder if I can get Digi Wiz's head to explode.

DigiWiz

02-26-2006, 11:18 PM

Come on, the 16 miles thing?

I do not see how that invalidates any of his observation about load popping, the streaming not being capable to deliver objects at the required speed, etc. Especially after this issue has been repeated in other reviews as well (gamer's mark, gamerswithjobs, etc). These issues seem to be easily enough noticeable that whether or not the author has played morrowind or does some wrong math with the size of the gameworld has no influence on whether or ot these issues exist.

Yes, he has only played for 2 hours, but the kind of issues described are not the kind of things that magically disappear after two hours, they are core problems with streaming a dynamic world in a memory limited environment, so his observations are entirely believable to me.

It seems that it is in these days to take minor issues with a critical review and try to undermine the reviewers credibility. I originally wrote it's not the best of all reviews, yes, but damn as hell it does at least a job of pointing out weaknesses perceived when playing the game.

DigiWiz

02-26-2006, 11:21 PM

Not that I've played it. I wonder if I can get Digi Wiz's head to explode.

As we have been told recently, those ad company paid posters are paid well to establish a credible role in forum communities, by generating accounts with large postcounts and then cashing in on the fact that postcount is seen as a credibility meter in many communities.

Given the quality of your posts, you are either a rabid fanboy, which is excusable, or paid to post this obvious bs.

The game is out soon. In fact, it probably is in per certification already. We will know more in a couple of days, but at least previews like the one that spawned this thread give us the opportunity to rethink whether or not preordinging makes sense.

Achilles

02-26-2006, 11:22 PM

DigiWiz

02-26-2006, 11:24 PM

I’ll post some other critical impressions, so that it doesn’t come across that I’m trying to sell the game (though I’m sure going to buy it): The world is fairly empty of moving life, like deer and enemies. Maybe this changes later in the game as the areas become more dangerous. Towns as well aren’t crowded, there’s 3 maybe 4 people on the street at any given time, which seems a little odd. Their conversation system could also use some help, though it's better than it was in the previous ES games.

Whohoo, critical impression from screenshots. Excellent work, that really beats out having a playable build of the game.

Hint: try writing "could be better than" instead of "it's better than".

But I get it, you're a fanboy alright. Totally excusable, but also totally irrellevant for the debate at hand.

Achilles

02-26-2006, 11:26 PM

Whohoo, critical impression from screenshots. Excellent work, that really beats out having a playable build of the game.

Hint: try writing "could be better than" instead of "it's better than".Dude you have 81 posts. I've been here for 5 years. And you're calling me the corporate imposter? I can also safely assume you don't know what the hell an NDA is or why anyone would follow one.

Neosho

02-26-2006, 11:28 PM

I never knew there were such rabid TES fanboys. Seriously, the review wasn't even that bad...he said there was a bunch of stuff he liked about it, like the large world, and the interactive world, and that there was more to the game than picking up everything that's not nailed down...but he didn't like the terrain popping up and such?

Why the fuck are people jumping down his throat like that...crazy.

Neosho

02-26-2006, 11:28 PM

DigiWiz

02-26-2006, 11:30 PM

Dude you have 81 posts. I've been here for 5 years. And you're calling me the corporate imposter? I can also safely assume you don't know what the hell an NDA is or why anyone would follow one.

Yea, post count = credibility, just like time = skill in MMOs.

If you are under an NDA, it means that you have ties to Bethesda and your posts should be treated as such. Because if you had played the game on the weekend as a member of the press, you would have noticed that the information blackout regarding the demo build had been lifted, and you could talk savely about it.

Or maybe you are just throwing the NDA argument around in an attempt to look less "uninformed" when ranting against someone's opinion who has obviously played the game.

No, you're not helping your own credibility here, but then again, maybe you are just trying to derail the debate about the technical issues identified by the hands on reviewer...

In any case, until you can state "I have played the game", there is no good reason to believe any of your ramblings, and if you can state it, you will have to answer the question why... bad maneuver to bring up that NDA, try something smarter next time around.

slimfatbaby

02-26-2006, 11:31 PM

Achilles

02-26-2006, 11:32 PM

Huh, well believe what you like Digi-Wiz and co.

DigiWiz

02-26-2006, 11:34 PM

There's a really nice preview podcast at www.newgamingradio.com where the host goes into some extensive detail on the mages quests among other things. He does mention performance skips a little but he seems pretty satisfied with his playtest.
thanks for the link!

Here's some really good comedy:
http://www.shacknews.com/ja.zz?id=11706474
George B 3D Realms. the guy who brought you Duke Nuke Forever, well, might bring, might have brought, whatever.... explaining how it is stupid to explain next gen graphics from a game ... ah, the irony.

Neosho

02-26-2006, 11:35 PM

Jesus, everyone's "pretty satisfied" with their freaking playtests. I don't see why one little article, bringing up one small problem, is such a big damn deal. And for the record, achilles, i have no idea what your agenda is here, if you work for Bethseda or whatever, and frankly, i don't care. Anyone that spazzes over such a small issue obviously has some kinda bias above and beyond the normal, so i'm gonna ignore you anyways.

thecrazyd

02-26-2006, 11:41 PM

Neosho

02-26-2006, 11:43 PM

Apparently...although now i guess i have a new group of amusing fanbois to laugh at...seriously, these guys are amazingly above and beyond. Look at my new preview...

http://iknoweverthingaboutoblivion/anditsucks

Where are my flames?

Mason

02-26-2006, 11:45 PM

Wiz, I hate to say it, but your head is exploding here. As I pointed out, the 1up preview talks about the draw distance, as does lots of other places. No one's saying the problem doesn't exist, so it gets pretty goofy for you to keep defending that point.

What I'm saying is that the guy's blog entry was wrong about enough stuff that it's pretty dumb to use it as an authoritative view. They weren't minor issues with his reasoning and accuracy, and this was not a critical review, just a quick blurb which degenerated into a rant about the HD era. Why is there always someone who insists on defending this stuff?

And yet again, I just don't care. I played Morrowind on an 800MHz Athlon with a Geforce 256, it paused like every 3 steps, and I still enjoyed it. Move on, stop trying to convince me that the sky is falling here.

DigiWiz

02-26-2006, 11:54 PM

And yet again, I just don't care. I played Morrowind on an 800MHz Athlon with a Geforce 256, it paused like every 3 steps, and I still enjoyed it. Move on, stop trying to convince me that the sky is falling here.

If you look at my original post, I'm not trying to convince you to do anything. I was just pointing out the treatment this guy got by rabid fanbois for posting a dissenting opinion, which I perceive as stupid and unfair.

... dumb to use it as an authoritative view...

I agree, but I never did that, nor did most others in this thread. It is however a good warning sign that there might be something rotten in the state of Oblivion, which is backed up by other opinions as well

http://www.gamerswithjobs.com/node/22390
http://www.gamersmark.com/articles/187/

both from the same, hand's on event state pretty clearly that the issues this guy found are there. These sites have one thing in common, they are relatively minor. The larger the sites become, the less critical their reviews from the same hands on event are.

People sometimes forget that all there is to game reviews is opinions. Informed opinions (with the game) and uninformed opinions (without the game). There should also be critique, but it is rather absent from todays media, either because the reviewers want a job in the industry (check the career history of Peter Hines, the Oblivion PR guy) or because they want to get the preview of the next game as well, or that needed ad from the console manufacturer or whatever.

The guy's review, and the reviews by the other two mentioned sites have done me a great service. I know now that I will not preorder but wait for the game to hit the road and then wait for some informed (with the game) opinions about how things are. Not being a graphics whore means I won't care about a lot of the things mentioned, unless they are bad enough to impact gameplay (like having to wait for the game to load every 8 seconds on horseback), in which case I will wait for the PC patched version before handing them my money.

Achilles

02-26-2006, 11:55 PM

Wiz, I hate to say it, but your head is exploding here. As I pointed out, the 1up preview talks about the draw distance, as does lots of other places. No one's saying the problem doesn't exist, so it gets pretty goofy for you to keep defending that point.

What I'm saying is that the guy's blog entry was wrong about enough stuff that it's pretty dumb to use it as an authoritative view. They weren't minor issues with his reasoning and accuracy, and this was not a critical review, just a quick blurb which degenerated into a rant about the HD era. Why is there always someone who insists on defending this stuff?True, it’s definitely got draw-in in some areas. But I couldn’t care less, the game looks amazing. I’ve got no idea why the defenders of this article are so rabid. Is it just because it’s the most negative of the various previews? It’s not even well written.

Also I never said I was under NDA. I just doubted that Digi-Wiz ever heard of such a thing.

DigiWiz

02-26-2006, 11:58 PM

Also I never said I was under NDA. I just doubted that Digi-Wiz ever heard of such a thing.

Yes, because you would randomly pick the word "NDA" to make me look like a noob who has no idea about the topics being discussed at this website. Because, you know, the word NDA is something that immediately jumps to someones mind for the topic at hand and it is cleary THE WORD that everyone who posted for 5 years on this website would know, while noobs would not. :p

No, you tried to imply that you were under NDA because you were starting to look pretty stupid and you thought this might be a good idea to make it look like you actually had something better than a few screenshots to support your "the author is sooo wrong" conclusion. Didn't work out to well, in fact you got, let me say "owned" and now you're trying damage control, which again, isn't working out so hot.

There are plenty of posts in this thread that explain why this particular article is something special, even if it's not well written, just take off those NDA shades and you might see them.

As for rabies, well, we might have gotten one to close to some of those oblivion fanbois on the author's website, it seems to be infectious.

Subbacultcha

02-27-2006, 12:00 AM

Short draw distances? Say it ain't so!

"By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion"

/sarcasm

Mason

02-27-2006, 12:03 AM

Why aren't you waiting for reviews in the first place? There isn't a game made which is ruined by waiting for a few days for opinions to solidify. The world would have a lot fewer eternally-optimistic boxes of Jade Empire, Doom 3, and Black & White collecting dust on gamers' shelves if people would just act rationally.

And if you don't think that people with a copy of a game in their hot little hands can't produce an uninformed review, you haven't been around too long.

DigiWiz

02-27-2006, 12:09 AM

Why aren't you waiting for reviews in the first place?

Because I, like a lot of other people, tend to get really interested in games, let's say "hyped up" and from time to time, we preorder them. Articles like the one at hand tell us when to take a step back from preorder and wait for the reviews. For every 100 "it's going to rule" type of previews out there, there is one like this article, and it is important to point these out.

Yes, people with the game in hand can provide crappy opinions, but by definition, they are informed opinions, so please spare me your little "you haven't been around long enough, my postcount is higher than your's crap".

I did mentioned that it is not the best review ever in my original post - however it provides an insight into potential problems with the game, problems the major review sites have not mentioned (in the same way they have not mentioned the issues with fable in any preview). Other sites have provided similar concerns now and it seems the author has pointed out a valid concern.

I also thought it was amazing how many rabid attacks have been directed toward the author and thought that was a fact worth mentioning, because the attackers had not played the game, which makes them idiots that do not know what they are talking about.

In fact, their "burn him on a stick" reaction gives a very sad insight into how well the PR hype machine is capable of mobilizing gamers to sell their products, it is downright frightening and very similar to those who have incited people to go crazy over a few cartoons. Why would eductated people go out and attack someone who obviously has played the game without having access to the same information that this person had? Especially since the things he brings up are quite logical and consistent with other games of the same type, nothing really new here.

It might be that the author is offended more than he should be by the graphical issues he found, but it is his right to give that opinion based on the game he played. Maybe. Maybe not.

But he has provided a valuable service by being one of the few people who got to see the demo to have the balls of saying "listen, it's not as much as I expected it to be based on the hype about next gen graphics. Be warned, you might be disappointend". That's a very valuable service to me and others because now we know that just preordering it might not be a good idea.

Now, after digging around a bit more, things like

8 seconds between loads on a horse

start to emerge. That sounds seriously fucked up. None of the major review sites mentioned it. Maybe they didn't use a horse. Maybe it was only an issue with one machine. Maybe they kept quite about it. But definitly now we have a question we can ask when people are starting to receive the game and we can decide for ourselves, whether or not we like the answer.

The game will probably end up really good. I hope it. There have been no good PC RPGs in years. However, there is that nagging feeling ever since fable....

Rendelius

02-27-2006, 12:16 AM

I have read 10+ previews now, and I have listened to some podcasts about Oblivion. I do not rely on one preview to draw my conclusions. I try to get the big picture, and I wonder what fun it is in picking only those points that help you to fortify your own point of view *g*

I have the impression that neither graphics nor loading times are a big deal. While one review mentions how disturbing loading times are, another clearly states that they do NOT interfere with gameplay. Going into a city: 2-5sec, entering a building: 1 sec most. That this is longer on Xbox is logical: 512MB memory is just less, isn't it?

About 90% of the previews state that the graphics are jaw-dropping and far better than ever before in a RPG. The only constant complaint was that distant landmasses have low-rez textures.

In one interview Pete Hines mentioned that they are still working on performance issues with ATI cards, and as far as I remember, this is the reason why they don't give you a release date yet.

Grass drawing distance: No surprise for me - have you ever looked at the SpeedTree demos? Same there. I think this is something we will have to live with. I expect that to be visible in the final release as well. There ARE limits to what today's GPUs can handle :-)

Pop ups: we had this in Morrowind, and I expect this to happen in Oblivion as well. Remember when you walked into this little city close to your starting location - the one with the small fort in it? The wal of the fort didn't appear until you were very close. It was a cell loading bug, and I would be surprised if something like this will NOT occur in Oblivion.

What I enjoyed most in those previews were those little stories that came from the previewers: Everyone had to tell one of its own. That is the thing that makes me most happy: That you will discover stories that will be pretty unique to you and your playing style.

My opinion, based on all the previews, is this one: Oblivion will be a great experience. And fun. At least for me. It will have flaws (have you ever seen a flawless game?), but so far, from what we have been told, the good things outnumber the bad things by far. I don't think I will waste my money by buying this game.

Vandenh

02-27-2006, 12:25 AM

Morrowind had some incredible glitches. Still one of the best games I have ever played. The scope of Morrowind-type games is soo big that developers have to write a more "generic" type engine and I am not shocked by the fact that draw in for grass and other details is short. As long as the game is close to what Morrowind was, it can't go wrong IMHO.

Deathbane27

02-27-2006, 12:31 AM

My opinion, based on all the previews, is this one: Oblivion will be a great experience. And fun. At least for me. It will have flaws (have you ever seen a flawless game?), but so far, from what we have been told, the good things outnumber the bad things by far. I don't think I will waste my money by buying this game.

Er... you mean, "I don't think buying this game will be a waste of my money," right? The literal meaning of the last sentence contradicts the rest of your post there. :p

Rendelius

02-27-2006, 12:32 AM

You are absolutely correct. I am german speaking and it's pretty early, so forgive me *g*

Stooby

02-27-2006, 12:41 AM

This doesn't really bother me. I hope some of the issues are ironed out by release but even if they arent I will be buying this game.

I will run it on high quality at first and if my computer can't handle it I will scale back the quality until I don't notice the lag issues.

Wonka

02-27-2006, 12:53 AM

You know what kind of information I tend to believe about games? My eyes. Now this will not adress the claimed load issues, but based on how this video looks, I am inclined to think that this reviewer might be exaggerating just a little bit. There might still be bad load issues though. You can never tell untill you try it out. Anyhow, there are videos that appear quite legit on Team Xbox (right down to a mild early build framerate stutter). And I am inclined to rate these much higher than the he said she said nonsense that we have heard thus far... To my eyes the game looks pretty nice. You may choose to disagree about whether or not the videos look nice, but at least we will both be talking about something material...

http://previews.teamxbox.com/xbox-360/1282/The-Elder-Scrolls-IV-Oblivion/p3/

Acleacius

02-27-2006, 01:11 AM

That movie from TeamXbox, as best I can tell, is NOT an in-game of actual gameplay, just a movie that does not have to take into account Frame rate.

Ravenlock

02-27-2006, 01:25 AM

Wow, yeah, I just don't see the big deal. Graphical popup and loading pauses? :eek: C'mon, they were all over the place in Morrowind, and didn't have an impact on the quality of the game experience at all. I don't play an open ended RPG to marvel at the constant 60FPS. :rolleyes:

And Digi Wiz / Achilles, it doesn't matter how many posts either of you has, you're both just becoming dicks over this and there's no need. Digi Wiz, nobody but you thinks Achilles is a paid shill. Achilles, yes it was just a rather poorly written blog post but there's plenty of better material linked in the thread now. Give it a rest. There's plenty of hands-on previews for everybody to read, and we'll have reviews soon.

Achilles

02-27-2006, 01:31 AM

And Digi Wiz / Achilles, it doesn't matter how many posts either of you has, you're both just becoming dicks over this and there's no need. Digi Wiz, nobody but you thinks Achilles is a paid shill. Achilles, yes it was just a rather poorly written blog post but there's plenty of better material linked in the thread now. Give it a rest. There's plenty of hands-on previews for everybody to read, and we'll have reviews soon.Fair enough. I didn't think my posts were that out of control.

I don’t care about post count, just for the record. Everyone was at one post at some point.

Rirath

02-27-2006, 01:34 AM

Fair enough. I didn't think my posts were that out of control.

I don’t care about post count, just for the record. Everyone was at one post at some point.

None the less, I dislike the entire spin of this thread. The word "fanboy" right in the main post, followed by Digiwiz replying to every single counter argument over 8 pages, calling you a shill, putting out wild accusations against Beth... who's really more concerned? Why is it so important to prove this one guy right? As a dev (MSFD) said on the Obliv fourms: "Yeah, he gave a 200+ hour game about 2.5 hours and wrote it off. You be the judge."

Sorry, but "not the kind of folks" is not a very convicing argument, especially if MS is involved. I hope that you are right, but I'll rather wait for more reviews on this game now instead of preordering it. We're talking about business here, not about humanity. "Not the kind of folks" is something that has weight if you personally know people, but not about companies. I'm sure some people also said that Google "aren't the kind of folks to sell out their principles to china".

Normally, I'd agree with you. I see devs as companies, not 'friends' or 'the cool guys down the street', and so forth. I hate the defense of Valve and all their misinformation, the devotion to Nintendo, and etc. None the less, you're pulling it too far in the other direction by assuming that just because MS is VAGUELY involved, they somehow own Bethesda now and that Bethesda is going to go COMPLETELY 180 against their roots, despite stating numerous times that they're not, and unbiased previews to support their claims.

I'm not saying Beth can make an engine that'll put ID or Epic to shame, but they're not going to screw over the PC crowd for the console market. It just isn't what they do. The 360 is simply a powerful system that, at the end of the day, is a lot for even a modern machine to keep pace with -- for now. No sabotage involved. If they wanted to screw the PC guys, Why would they even bother with the highly improved construction kit and spell scripting?

Acleacius

02-27-2006, 02:50 AM

Well I am not really in this, I have posted neutral.

There is a very good chance due the MS funding as a 360 release title, that MS can cause the PC version to be held back till the 360 release.

I believe this is the reason we have seen the 3 month delay in the first place.

I can not prove it and I have less than 10 post, so you can not trust me, either :D

Zeal

02-27-2006, 03:01 AM

Just release the soundtrack and that'll be enough.

ProfPuppet

02-27-2006, 03:29 AM

Jeeez... What the hell happened to objectivity and looking at things as a whole, flaws and all?

Reading the various comments on other boards (and to a lesser degree this one) is like reading Lord of the Flies on acid.

bapenguin

02-27-2006, 04:23 AM

It is a big deal because 99% of previews are nothing but collective dick sucking. When someone occaisionally mentions something even slightly negative in a preview, it is amazing.

What if he posted the negative stuff just to get attention? We've seen that done before.

If 99% of the population says something is good...it's good. Just because 1% doesn't like it, that may be more personal taste than a reflection on quality. Granted...what this preview was complaining about was technical.

Reanimated

02-27-2006, 04:40 AM

Qoz

02-27-2006, 04:48 AM

I must say I agree with DigiWiz.
Achilles made some pretty weird statements for someone who has not played the game. DigiWiz just called him on it and Achilles made alot of posts to blur the issue.

You cannot judge the lag and load issues by watching a screenshot.
And the vidoes have not shown the drawdistance or stressed the stutter problem. And several others mentioned the fact that the game loads quite often. This is probably gonna be true. IF it is true, it will not keep me from eventually buying the game though.

DigiWiz and others like him (me) will either pre-order or wait for the reviews and perhaps a patch. We will get the game no matter what (unless it totally bombs)!

I like negative views on soon-to-be-released products - because history has shown how the larger sites hype the game and fail to report serious issues with lag, graphics, gameplay etc. in the final product. The motives could be what DigiWiz described, but I don't know.

I don't understand these pre-release fanboy-flaming wars when 99% of the people involved have not played the game. It is like some people suck up every information there is about the game and become self-appointed pre-release Oblivion experts. They believe they know the facts and flame on whenever someone dares to question the awesome game they personally have invested so much in.

But they can only have a vague idea. The blogger mentioned some issues and actually played the game! But instead of giving him the benefit of the doubt they just attack him for trashing the awesome game they have become mini-experts in. I wish these people would just relax, but I also know that this is what happens when the hype reaches the final climax. You cannot change the minds of these people. I whish I had found a blog questioning the fun-aspect before I purchased Black & White...

We know we are going to love all the features other sites talked about, but every experienced gamer know that all games contain some annoying part. Why treat Oblivion like it is pure perfection? I think the lag/loading issues are real, but so what? The game is probably still great.

Steele Johnson

02-27-2006, 05:03 AM

Reading this preview, you'd think he's previewing Morrowind. That's not good. I was hoping that this game doesn't play like Morrowind. But even this short preview reminds me of Morrowind... all the way down to the LOS problem, stuttering issues, and reloading. Damn!@

Yeti2005

02-27-2006, 05:13 AM

Morrowind on the Xbox had popup, it chugged at times, and yes it had really crappy load times BUT it was still a really fun game. I think worst case is Oblivion will have these same problems but once again it will still be fun to play (I hope :). I guess we'll have to wait till the final code to see.

bapenguin

02-27-2006, 05:18 AM

Achilles made some pretty weird statements for someone who has not played the game.

The denseness of people never cease to amaze me.

falcon

02-27-2006, 06:14 AM

I know I'll get burned at the stake for this but since I actually played the game last week at the Chicago event I thought I could contribute a little to the discussion. I paid for the trip myself and took the day off of work to do this (i.e. Bethesda did not pay me to come up for the event) . My preview is up at GamingNexus if you want to read 5 pages (3300+ words) of my impressions but to answer the stuff that's in the preview
- Constant load times: it does happen from time to time (not nearly as bad as it's made out to be) and you can still play the game while it loads. This is a background thing and if you didn't see the notice on the screen you probably wouldn't notice it. You do get a load screen when you change areas (city -> outside and vice versa) but it's about the atypical length of a load screen
- Draw distance: I spent almost all of my time on the 360 version and it didn't really have a lot of pop issues. Did have some trees and stuff pop in from time to time but it was about mid to far range. I did look over at the PC version at the station next to me and did notice than when they were looking across the lake at the start that the graphics were a blobby but it might have been that they had the graphics on the game turned down.
- Didn't have the game stutter or drop frames on me that I noticed. Completed most of the main quest (as far as we were allowed) , wandered around the countryside (which is fricking huge), and got about 70% of the way through one of the town quests.

I was probably a bit effusive in my praise of the game but this game really looks like the real deal, especially if you are a hard core RPG fan or fan of the series.

Qoz

02-27-2006, 06:20 AM

The denseness of people never cease to amaze me.
Please explain then?
Is he developing Oblivion? That is the only thing that would make sense then. And if he is why say he never played it? Why not just say it? He is not under an NDA as he said.

Other quotes:

Why would I do that, I haven't even played it.
Seriously, it'll be out soon enough, don't take it off your list because of this guy's drunken pre-impressions.
it's almost impossible to make something other than Ugly McGee with their character creation system.
You point out a lot of other good examples of where this guy isn’t on target. The draw distance thing exists, as does the load screen thing, it's just not nearly as bad as the guy is making it out to be. It's much better than in Morrowind.
He writes about how the game plays and corrects the blog writer, yet he has not played the game. Please explain why I should take his words serioulsy?

Reanimated

02-27-2006, 06:25 AM

[Jez]

02-27-2006, 06:43 AM

Meh! I was/am a big fan of Daggerfall and preordered Morrowind on that game alone... what a let down. It was dumbed down and took up unjustable resources, however the fans made it good from the FPS optmiser, sounds, textures, and models the game became far better now to this one witch seems even more dumbed down (Quest Compass/GPS in a medevil fantasy world) and the fact that beth will be charging for mods (thankfull not user made ones) leaves me a little worried about it. I have no doubt this will be a good game but I no longer belive it will be a good RPG witch is what I very much wanted :(

TheHulk

02-27-2006, 06:57 AM

I doubt anything written this weekend has swayed too many people on whether they're buying the game or not.

Tia

02-27-2006, 07:25 AM

What if he posted the negative stuff just to get attention? We've seen that done before.

If 99% of the population says something is good...it's good. Just because 1% doesn't like it, that may be more personal taste than a reflection on quality. Granted...what this preview was complaining about was technical.

I was thinking it the first moment I seen it. It seems that for a while now, the only way for gamers to beleive you is if you give a bad preview/review of a game. If not, you are paid by, or affraid to offend, or what ever.

Of course it is common courtesy with previews to not diss a game too much. Since it is usually not finished and many things will be fixed. So it is common to preview a game in good faith that some problems will be fixed.

Now little bloggers that needs attention... might not understand that.

Anyway, why do people trust bloggers so much? I mean seriously, have they been proven to be more accurate than other places?

Goronmon

02-27-2006, 07:31 AM

Is he developing Oblivion? That is the only thing that would make sense then. And if he is why say he never played it? Why not just say it? He is not under an NDA as he said.
Well, we don't know if he's under an NDA, all he said was that he never admitted to being under an NDA. ;)

There are NDAs that include not being able to even mention you have played the game or are under an NDA.

But who knows, we'll find out when the game is released in the not too distant future.

drakkarim

02-27-2006, 07:52 AM

personally i don't care who wrote what about what, I'm willing to bet It'll be the best $30 (for pc collector's edition) I've ever spent on a pc game bar none (i'm into singleplayer rpg's).

whatever issues there are, i have no doubt bethsoft will take the time to address,they're a respectable company that actually cares, they've proven it time and time again.

i'm sure there will be issues, there always are, but if there's one group i would ever trust to get things done, its them.

edit: repeating myself... anyway, still looking forward to the game. i'm not expecting the second coming, but i am expecting the best singleplayer rpg ever :) and i guarantee they will deliver :)

Nath5000

02-27-2006, 08:01 AM

Like I said before, morrowind loaded every 20 seconds if you were running across the landscape, the view distance was atrocious and the entire game was overloaded with fog and the animations were bad, the character interaction was minimal with NPCs, the combat system wasnt all that fun for an action game fan (especially at the beginning) and the game somehow still became a best seller.

All of this talk of "TES fanboys" who get mad over an article like that makes sense I think. Anyone who, in my opinion, actually completed morrowind and possibly the expansion packs and who actually put the time in to complete it is what I consider a TES fanboy mainly because they put up with it and looked past its faults. I think that most if not all of the fans who actually completed Morrowind with all of its faults could easily look at this Wired preview and realize that he obviously isnt a TES fan if he cant look past the new games smaller and expectable faults.

It always seems the case that most previews tend to kiss ass to the developer as a "thank you" for sending us an invite/being our friend etc... But when someone comes out with a preview that spends HALF of its words on bashing something like view distance which isnt really an essential component of any TES game, as anyone who enjoyed morrowind would know, its obvious that this Wired guy was never interested in The Elder Scrolls in the first place, but just interested in playing the new "best graphics ever" game. The same guy was probably sitting and playing doom 3 years back completely looking past dooms gameplay to glorify the game for its graphics. This guy is most likely a graphics whore, someone who (as a VG journalist) probably flocks to games with/like doom3, unreal engine 3 and crysis graphics and goes to their presentations with glee not caring about how the games will actually play or what they will have to offer other than graphics.

That being said I can say that I (as a gamer) am sometimes but not always a graphics whore and I do the same thing. I love looking into the newest games that look great and looking for their flaws because those games are all about the graphics, BUT I never had that expectation for Oblivion because after playing and completing morrowind I had too much to look forward to in oblivion OTHER than graphics improvements. They may not be up to the expectations of someone expecting Oblivion to be a graphics whores dream come true, but whos graphics will most likely be enough to satisfy anyone who wants to play this game for what it actually has to offer. THAT'S if bethdesa didnt totally screw it up, but I dont think its unsafe to assume that it will be at least on par or better than morrowind ;) . That being said, I dont think all of this "dont judge it before you play it, it could be crap and this wired article could be trying to tell us" talk is necessary.

PLUS when someone posts a link to one preview, and probably the most negative one out there on the internet on EvilAvatar when many people might just read this one preview which is half-positive and half-negative they might be left with a bad outlook on this game and not even judge it themselves when they play it. I think this type of debate was expected. What wouldve been more sensible is a post that listed all or many of the new previews and not just the most negative one.

jacktion

02-27-2006, 08:04 AM

Fair enough. I didn't think my posts were that out of control.

I don’t care about post count, just for the record. Everyone was at one post at some point.

Not me. I went straight from zero to 5.

Just so that this is relevant, This game looks great. And it is normal for first-gen games to overreach and have bad framerates and draw-in issues. This game will not be perfect and the fanboys need to chill out. Overall it looks like a pleasurable experience and no game developer is perfect. Maybe this team will make a better game for the sequel.

Citizen Philip

02-27-2006, 08:36 AM

I thought Morrowind was a shallow shell of a game, I tried playing for 4 hours and I lost interest. It looked ugly and I was able to do some stupid stuff like rob a store bin, as long as I stole from around the corner.

And I had friends that loved it. It's all good, some of them didn't like Fallout, the heathens.

There is a steaming pile of hype surrounding this game that I am even marginally excited about a sequel to a game I thought sucked. Seeing fanbois' out in legion isn't surprising. I wouldn't believe a preview from a "reputable" source, since there is no such a place: they all, as previous mentioned, sucking a corporate teats.

As it stands, I won't be picking this game up until a few weeks after release, at best.

OldeWolf

02-27-2006, 08:57 AM

Ah, what many people just dont understand these days. On one side, they are all bickering about graphics and complaining that it's not the same as real life. On other side, theyre defending the game with a blood thirsty look in thier eyes.

To be frank, the only true winner in all this will be coming from your own eyes and braincells, deciding if the game is for you or not. There is clearly no point in telling other people the good and bad when such opinions are worthless mainly due to the fact that you just have to use your own eyes and brain when you get your hands on this game to decide if the game is for you or not.

Bloggers are just overall a group of attention getters. If you haven't noticed, saying bad things about anything is the fad these days (News, blogs, reporters, right wing group, left wing groups, etc etc), it helps garner attentions to thier stance in life.

Why whine when a person voices thier biased opinions when you can easily wait a few more weeks and get your hands on it and voice your own opinions to yourself. But again, I do understand that certain people are unable to fathom the concept of observation and needs to rely on other people such as bloggers regardless of how overly biased they are.

The only way a game can ever be as real as life is when the computer is of earth size proportion with a powersource to match. But wait! We already have one, but only with a different kind of reality. Now knock it off with all the mud flinging and just enjoy human-kind's limited reality creating abilities.

Mason

02-27-2006, 09:12 AM

Citizen Philip

02-27-2006, 09:35 AM

It was a review, get over it. He isn't stopping you from buying it. So buy it and ignore him. Or pay attention and wait. Or don't buy.

WHATEVER.

Neosho

02-27-2006, 09:49 AM

Ok, here's a question that's actually kind valid. I'm aware that apparently the TES series doesn't pride themselves on graphics so much, i hated morrowwind because the world didn't feel...right. There were too many continuity errors for me, not enough interaction. When i talked to someone in fallout/fallout 2, i felt like i had an effect on them, i could change something. When i talked to people in morrowind i felt like i was talking to a bot.

Anyway, my original point was: for a series that doesn't pride themselves on graphics, why not take the hit on close in rendering and have a "Seamless" world? You adjust to a slightly lower level of graphics, but i never adjust to watching shit pop up off on the distance. Anyone?

Citizen Philip

02-27-2006, 10:40 AM

...

Anyway, my original point was: for a series that doesn't pride themselves on graphics, why not take the hit on close in rendering and have a "Seamless" world? You adjust to a slightly lower level of graphics, but i never adjust to watching shit pop up off on the distance. Anyone?

I don't think that as ever been addressed really.. either things pop or you live in a world of perpetual fog.. at around 250 meters.

Neosho

02-27-2006, 11:05 AM

RMan

02-27-2006, 11:07 AM

You adjust to a slightly lower level of graphics, but i never adjust to watching shit pop up off on the distance. Anyone?
The "poping in" issue will not go away, it's an unavoidable limitation that can be masked and minimized, but never quite eliminated (well, this is a tricky one, because I think in some applications it could be effectively eliminated, but explaining that will take too long, so I’ll keep it simple). The problem is that if you think about what’s being drawn on the screen, as you move away from the camera (into the horizon) there is an increasing number of objects needing to be drawn, and those objects have a decreasing level of significance, since perspective makes them smaller on screen. With modern hardware, drawing something that takes one pixel of screen space can take almost the same time as something that takes 100 pixels, so few developers want to draw a bunch of little objects in the distance if it means dropping detail significantly on objects in the foreground.

Magnanimous Gnome

02-27-2006, 11:09 AM

But why? It seems like such a natural step for engine development...i have a pet peeve on clipping errors and terrain pop...it seems like it would be not horribly complicated to trade nearby detail to extend the range of higher detail rendering out a bit.

I'm with you man. I wish that developers would take this to heart, but sadly there are millions of graphics whores out there that must be fed, not to mention the bad PR that comes from having a game that isn't the prettiest out there.

I just want a fun game in a large, open world that runs at a decent framerate on an affordable system without clipping, popup, or excessive load times. Is that too much to ask for? Apparently.

Achilles

02-27-2006, 11:17 AM

Re: post counts, I was the one who brought them up originally. I did so because DigiWiz was accusing a long-time poster of being a paid shill. That's insulting and corrosive to the community in general, and is basically the ultimate cop-out non-argument.

It's idiotic to suggest that the only reason someone might like Oblivion is that they were paid to. And I propose that if you feel the need to level such accusations against other forum-goers in order to defend the unprofessional preview that you submitted as a news item, perhaps the stress of submitting threads isn't being handled as well as it should be.That’s why I mentioned it as well. I was just pointing out that I’d been here a heck of a lot longer than him, and I’d have to had that corporate shill job for 5 years, which if true, I probably would have jumped off a bridge by now. They also probably wouldn’t tolerate that this is the only forum I read or post on.

I agree that it is corrosive to the community and creates a witch-hunt atmosphere where you can attack someone for having a positive opinion on just about anything.

I almost forgot to mention my favorite thing about Oblivion: There’s point to point time elapse travel! It’s back from Daggerfall; now instead of needing a horse, or having to walk somewhere (Morrowind) you can just click where you want to go and elapse time until you arrive. Thanks Bethesda!

Neosho

02-27-2006, 11:22 AM

The "poping in" issue will not go away, it's an unavoidable limitation that can be masked and minimized, but never quite eliminated (well, this is a tricky one, because I think in some applications it could be effectively eliminated, but explaining that will take too long, so I’ll keep it simple). The problem is that if you think about what’s being drawn on the screen, as you move away from the camera (into the horizon) there is an increasing number of objects needing to be drawn, and those objects have a decreasing level of significance, since perspective makes them smaller on screen. With modern hardware, drawing something that takes one pixel of screen space can take almost the same time as something that takes 100 pixels, so few developers want to draw a bunch of little objects in the distance if it means dropping detail significantly on objects in the foreground.

I seem to remember that in one particular old game (wing commander, maybe?) and more "recently", in X-Wing Alliance, you could control the distance at which they stopped using high quality models and moved to lower quality ones (or blocks in the case of wing commander). Why don't they do something similar? Gradient levels of poly detail. I'm not demanding that i see every leaf in a tree, i'd just like to see something along the lines of a tree, rather than having a random tree appear in the middle of my plains...

Neosho

02-27-2006, 11:25 AM

I'm with you man. I wish that developers would take this to heart, but sadly there are millions of graphics whores out there that must be fed, not to mention the bad PR that comes from having a game that isn't the prettiest out there.

I just want a fun game in a large, open world that runs at a decent framerate on an affordable system without clipping, popup, or excessive load times. Is that too much to ask for? Apparently.

I don't even ask for it to be on an affordable system...i'll wait a year until my system is up to spec if i can get around that fuxoring popup action. And clipping, come on now..everyone's got a physics engine now, fucking use it. There were plenty of games that managed to make clipping not happen, long before the acclaimed physics engine revolution. I don't care that your dude dies in a totally unrealistic position as long as the bastard doesn't have his hand shoved through some guy's sternum.

RMan

02-27-2006, 11:32 AM

I just want a fun game in a large, open world that runs at a decent framerate on an affordable system without clipping, popup, or excessive load times. Is that too much to ask for? Apparently.
Yea, it's actually a pretty tall order. Tell you what, here's a simple explanation of the cost of drawing stuff on modern hardware (in contract to when it used to be mostly about polygon count or pure fill rate)...
Drawing a tree:
Preparing for drawing trees - 1000 time units
Drawing a tree - 50 time units
Time cost per pixel - 1 time unit

Now, with this simple formula, you can see even with a highly prop based environment with a bunch of similar/identical trees the trees at a distance continue to cost at least 50 time units each even if they take only one pixel. If the elements at a distance are unique, then they can take 1051 time units, even if they’re only one pixel in screen space (and 1050 even if the object is obscured). It’s reasonable to cut your performance in half each time you double your draw distance (and more if you have more unique objects), so that’s why most developers tend to stick to short draw distances, especially if graphics is a significant part of the promotion (certainly true in the case of this title).

RMan

02-27-2006, 11:45 AM

Why don't they do something similar? Gradient levels of poly detail.
Well, as odd as it's going to sound, polygon count makes very little difference on modern hardware. I’m not saying that you can pump 10 polygons per pixel and it’s not going to hurt, but compared to as little as 6 or more years ago when your polygon count was a fair representation of the performance cost, the climate is VERY different now. For instance, drawing something that takes 100 polygons would be almost no faster than drawing something that takes 3000 polygons on a 6800, so the LOD techniques we used just a few years ago are all but useless now. Recently I even took my terrain models that were, if I remember correctly, roughly 16K polygons per chunk. I optimized them to 4K per chunk and they were actually SLOWER (by about 5%, but still freaky). Now, that’s pretty uncommon, and I think it must be related to some weird caching anomaly, but regardless it demonstrates the insignificance of reducing polygon counts to improve performance.

Keep in mind, we haven't even talked about shadows or the fact that if it's visible you can't put it to sleep and avoid gameplay calcs.

Liquidize105

02-27-2006, 12:32 PM

Oh man, so the horse does lag the game after all. That can't be preference, I mean chugs are chugs.

Reviews are coming anyhow, I'll know soon enough.

Neosho

02-27-2006, 12:34 PM

What about a simple placeholder though? I mean, at XXXX feet away from the pov, you're not going to need/want to render anything, really...just some sort of pixel blob that kinda resembles a tree...

Citizen Philip

02-27-2006, 12:40 PM

Because a company could invest many dollars and programming hours in fine-tuning a gaming engine to prioritize the different rendering levels at distances compared to your rate of travel. Compound the calculations by LoD, different memory and mhz per system.

It's a losing battle.

Liquidize105

02-27-2006, 12:49 PM

Freeroaming outdoor games tend to not have cutting edge tech, but Oblivion does. It has to come from somewhere I guess.

Better-looking game = smaller draw distance

Maybe its the same problem down at Stalker's.

Magnanimous Gnome

02-27-2006, 01:17 PM

Yea, it's actually a pretty tall order. Tell you what, here's a simple explanation of the cost of drawing stuff on modern hardware (in contract to when it used to be mostly about polygon count or pure fill rate)...
Drawing a tree:
Preparing for drawing trees - 1000 time units
Drawing a tree - 50 time units
Time cost per pixel - 1 time unit

Now, with this simple formula, you can see even with a highly prop based environment with a bunch of similar/identical trees the trees at a distance continue to cost at least 50 time units each even if they take only one pixel. If the elements at a distance are unique, then they can take 1051 time units, even if they’re only one pixel in screen space (and 1050 even if the object is obscured). It’s reasonable to cut your performance in half each time you double your draw distance (and more if you have more unique objects), so that’s why most developers tend to stick to short draw distances, especially if graphics is a significant part of the promotion (certainly true in the case of this title).

I was talking about a game that doesn't have the latest and greatest graphics though. I wouldn't care if Oblivion looked no better than Morrowind, provided they actually fixed up the bugs and graphical errors this time. Why shoot so much higher graphically when it creates so many problems? I want the game to be polished, not super pretty and full of bugs. I'd much rather play a game that was stable and had a great art style over one that looked super "pretty" but had a generic art style and was full of graphical errors (Oblivion and even Morrowind for that matter).

RMan

02-27-2006, 02:38 PM

Why shoot so much higher graphically when it creates so many problems?
Because most people that own a 360 now, or in the near future, would blow it off otherwise. Also, this can be just a mistake, they may have believed the hardware would catch up and that they wouldn't really be pushing it.
What about a simple placeholder though? I mean, at XXXX feet away from the pov, you're not going to need/want to render anything, really...just some sort of pixel blob that kinda resembles a tree...
If you mean like a sprite representing the object, that doesn't work well because the object may be viewed at any angle, so you can't effectively have a texture represent the object well. Several of the Speed Tree demos did this, but they had the advantage of using static trees, wherein the copies of a tree were all viewed at the same orientation, so a single sprite closely resembled every tree. However, this clearly doesn’t work if you want to have any unique object rotation or animation, so unless you’re doing a forest game the technique doesn’t help much. If you’re talking about having a texture representation of each unique instance of an object, that would actually be worse than drawing from props, since you’d have to switch textures each time you draw one (way worse than drawing each instance of an object).

TheLengua

02-27-2006, 02:40 PM

How can any of you criticize Bethesda they are making the best game possible and since Morrowind was the greatest game ever I have full confidence in their ability to make an amazing game and all this naysaying on the part of previewers is just CORPORATE DICKSUCKING and those guys are so unprofessional they should just waut until the game comes out WHAT FUCKING DOUCHEBAGS I bet the 360 version is way better THIS IS SUCH BULLSHIT IT MAKES ME SO FUCKING ANGRY I WANT TO SHITTING KILL FUCK COCK BASTARD CRAPAAARRRGGGHHH AAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH . . . RAAAARRRRGGHGH

HULK ANGRY! HULK SMASH!

Serapth

02-27-2006, 02:56 PM

Ignoring the arguments that Oblivion is going to kick ass, or that Oblivion is going stuck or even RMans desperate attempt at technically educating people on how some of this shit works....

Doesnt anybody remember this guy is from WIRED?!?! WIRED! They havent been right about a fucking thing since the magazine was founded. For shits and giggles pick up an old magazine of theirs and look at the predictions of the way things are going to be. For extra laughs, make sure its pre dot com bubble bursting.

I to this date refuse to believe a thing or opinion these guys spew, regardless to the subject.

Neosho

02-27-2006, 02:58 PM

If you mean like a sprite representing the object, that doesn't work well because the object may be viewed at any angle, so you can't effectively have a texture represent the object well. Several of the Speed Tree demos did this, but they had the advantage of using static trees, wherein the copies of a tree were all viewed at the same orientation, so a single sprite closely resembled every tree. However, this clearly doesn’t work if you want to have any unique object rotation or animation, so unless you’re doing a forest game the technique doesn’t help much. If you’re talking about having a texture representation of each unique instance of an object, that would actually be worse than drawing from props, since you’d have to switch textures each time you draw one (way worse than drawing each instance of an object).

Well. Now i feel stupid. Thanks.

:p

Interesting though....one day i'm sure they'll figure it out. Do you have any ideas how they'd go about solving the problem?

Serapth

02-27-2006, 03:01 PM

Well. Now i feel stupid. Thanks.

:p

Interesting though....one day i'm sure they'll figure it out. Do you have any ideas how they'd go about solving the problem?

In the long run, brute force + better GPU programmable pipelines + funky geometric algorithms will make figuring it out rather pointless. From the sounds of things, Oblivion is taking a baby step toward the solution now. Much like how poly counts are near as important today as they were even 3 years ago.

Neosho

02-27-2006, 03:03 PM

Wait? that's your solution?

Unacceptable! Make the 360 with ubar graphics and have it feed me cake!

It's a good point though. Too bad i'm rather impatient.

Serapth

02-27-2006, 03:05 PM

Wait? that's your solution?

Unacceptable! Make the 360 with ubar graphics and have it feed me cake!

It's a good point though. Too bad i'm rather impatient.

Dont worry, I would say that the 360 is more then powerful enough to do a much better job then you are seeing today. Just the massive amount of parrallesism that developers are being asked to deal with + a rather odd video card setup, give em time, they will lick it.

Neosho

02-27-2006, 03:14 PM

Yeah...I was playing grandia 3 and was very impressed with what they've done with the PS2...

There's something to be said for standardized hardware, even to a hardcore custom builder like myself.

Demo_Boy

02-27-2006, 04:30 PM

Massive draw in and loading chug when you're on the horse?

Havent these things been worked out (in MMOs) already?

No kidding they removed the raycast shadow engine -- can you imagine the chug?

Magnanimous Gnome

02-27-2006, 04:37 PM

Massive draw in and loading chug when you're on the horse?

Havent these things been worked out (in MMOs) already?

No kidding they removed the raycast shadow engine -- can you imagine the chug?

Can you imagine what people would say if you had to load every eight seconds while riding the horse in Wind Waker? The trolls would shit themselves with glee. It wouldn't be acceptable there, and I really don't think it is acceptable here either. I'm looking forward to this game, but all of the bugs and loading in Morrowind really got on my nerves after a while.

I don't have anything that I can play this on anyway, so I suppose my opinion doesn't really matter in the long run.

RMan

02-27-2006, 05:55 PM

Interesting though....one day i'm sure they'll figure it out. Do you have any ideas how they'd go about solving the problem?
Honestly, I understand the problem, but I haven't really thought much about a solution (since I'm not interested in working on an uber project that can actually make use of the solution). I really think it'd take a multi-core GPU to be smooth, but I would likely try to solve it by drawing the “background” in layers based on distance (likely into a cube texture), then only updating the layers as enough things change in the background so that an update is needed (and this would only be for static, or relatively static objects). With a multicore GPU, complicated backgrounds would only result in less updates, rather than a decreased or inconsistent framerate. This would also require a deferred lighting system, but I’d imagine that’ll be standard in the future. I'd give this technique a 50% chance of working (haven't though about it enough, and it only takes one thing not working for the whole system to break down).

Achilles

02-27-2006, 06:07 PM

Honestly, I understand the problem, but I haven't really thought much about a solution (since I'm not interested in working on an uber project that can actually make use of the solution). I really think it'd take a multi-core GPU to be smooth, but I would likely try to solve it by drawing the “background” in layers based on distance (likely into a cube texture), then only updating the layers as enough things change in the background so that an update is needed (and this would only be for static, or relatively static objects). With a multicore GPU, complicated backgrounds would only result in less updates, rather than a decreased or inconsistent framerate. This would also require a deferred lighting system, but I’d imagine that’ll be standard in the future. I'd give this technique a 50% chance of working (haven't though about it enough, and it only takes one thing not working for the whole system to break down).If you look at the draw distance in a lot of modern Sony games, it’s longer than most Xbox or PC games (Drakan, Jak and Daxter, etc). It looks like they’re doing something with flattening the distant detail into a 2d skybox type image that sounds a little similar to your cube map idea. If I was working on a game in that perspective it’s the first thing I’d look into.